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veth
03-25-2013, 06:22 PM
So back in live I played around with druid only til about level 20 or so, but never really got the hang of charming animals, didn't play with it much.

Decided to go druid on p1999, been soloing a lot with having two blues kill each other and harvesting the exp. I have finally seen the power of charm and have fallen in love with the ability. Druid was 29 in no time, and it seems to be getting even better.

My concern is that only charming animals is limiting me, and that the safety of snare + sow + open spaces won't help at higher levels when going into dungeons. Plus I heard a lot about druids in groups towards end game being the weakest link. So I rolled an enchanter alt, got to 12. Its pretty fun right now, even though he is fragile. I grouped a bit in Befallen and mezzing was a lot more fun overall than just mostly healing. And now I can charm anything, not just animals!

I guess it would make sense in the long run to stick with the Chanter... but at the same time I really miss those heals (almost never play classes that don't heal, even necro could heal himself). And sow, and tracking, and ports.

Should I stick with the druid and keep having fun? Will he still be strong at solo and useful in groups at high level, or will I start to feel disappointed?

Or should I push through the sow/tracking/healing/porting withdrawal and start leveling that Enchanter til I get jboots and more HP gear and enjoy clarity and haste and more variety in pets?

Any insight on this comparison would be very helpful, cause I cannot decide at the moment.

Splorf22
03-25-2013, 08:07 PM
Druids got utterly screwed by Kunark. Here's a little math comparing Druids and Shamans. First, in Classic, lets assume we have a L50 warrior with haste (being optimistic here) who parses at 50 dps duoing with a L50 Druid and L50 shaman against a L40 undead frog in Lower Guk. The frog does 20 dps and has 3000 hp, making it a 1 minute fight.

Druid: 60s * 20 dps = 1200 hp = 4 greater heals = 600 mana
Shaman: 60s * 20 dps * 0.35 (slow) = 420 hp = 1.5 greater heals + 1 slow = 400 mana

Now let's run those numbers again in Kunark, with a L60 warrior at 65 dps duoing with a L60 druid/shaman against a Krup Knight with 8500 hp and doing 30 dps. The fight now lasts two minutes and ten seconds due to the massive increase in HP.

Druid: 130*30 = 3923 hp = 6.5 superior heals = 1650 mana
Shaman: 130*30*0.25 = 1.6 super heals + 1 slow = 670 mana

So the Shaman needs less than half as much mana to keep a tank up duo. Now combine this with the fact that the shaman gets canni and the Druid doesn't, and a shaman is more or less continuously killing (in practice a monk with a fungi + regrowth can basically fight a slowed mob forever without heals) and you can start to see why Druids are just weak at higher levels. We haven't even gotten to the part where Shamans get haste and Druids don't, or the part where the Shaman epic is 10x easier than the Druid one and better because it stacks with root.

Now the big equalizer Druids have is charm. Lets suppose we put our duos in Sol B at the Efreeti camp, and the Druid has a charmed bat. The druid duo is now doing 130 dps; the fight is half as long, and the Druid is using 825 mana which is suddenly much closer to the shaman. Unfortunately for this team, Druids also got screwed on animals in Kunark. In classic you can charm in Hate/Fear/SolB/Gukbottom . . . which is basically everywhere. In Kunark you have Chardok, which is the worst, most annoying dungeon, and nothing in KC/Sebilis/HS/Sky. I am told things get a little better here in Velious; at minimum Enchanters and Druids will both be rocking charmed dire wolves in Kael.

The one saving grace you have as a Druid is that if you make friends with a lot of enchanters, they can fix your weaknesses. They have slow and mana regen. Unfortunately, shamans are still an even better duo/grouping partner . . . . .

Tecmos Deception
03-25-2013, 09:01 PM
I'm biased, but your concerns about enchanters vs. druids are all easily answered really.

You're worried chanters can't heal? Well, they don't really need to, because they can use 2 lines of rune spells on themselves and they have roots, mezzes, and super-fast-casting stuns to help avoid taking any damage in the first place!

You're concerned about lack of sow? You can't sow indoors anyways, and dungeons are where all the best fights/loot are (imo. there is an appeal to fighting under the wide open sky, but meh). And you can get to the point with a chanter where you can just farm jboots pretty easily anyways.

You're concerned about no ports? Yeah, ports are super convenient. But if you set up base near a dungeon with a few stacks of food/water/rune components, etc., you can be there for a long time without needing to leave anyways. The one trip every so often you need to make to town you can buy a port or just spend 30 minutes to run!

No track? Yeah, track is another convenient thing. Chanters don't REALLY have an answer for this. They can work their way through any dungeon with invis, ivu, and lulls, but it will take a lot more time than clicking track. Of course, druid tracking range is due for a nerf soon!

Aprisle
04-16-2013, 05:48 AM
I love this thread. I pretty much friended every single enchanter I came across leveling up to make life easier. A Druid and Enchanter can do a LOT of content together

falkun
04-16-2013, 07:47 AM
Of course, druid tracking range is due for a nerf soon!

What?

As for charming as a druid, there are some extremely viable end-game druid charming:
1) Permafrost pits are great solo exp from what I've heard.
2) Chardok dogs make great pets, but chardok is usually reserved for AoE and "normal" trinity+3DPS groups shy away from the place.
3) Kael should have wolves that are druid-charmable.

Druids are generally the "jack of all trades" but do not accel in any single role. Charming in these places will at least allow them to be competitive DPS.

Tecmos Deception
04-16-2013, 07:59 AM
I seem to recall a post in bugs somewhat recently that druid tracking was higher level on p99 than it should be. May have just been a heard-it-through-the-grapevine thing though.

Galanteer
04-16-2013, 11:46 AM
Bind sight is a way for enchanters to explore deep into dungeons before moving in. Its not track, and it can take some time, but creative camera angles and target hoping, you should be able to see to the end of most dungeons while standing at the entrance.

Swish
04-16-2013, 12:49 PM
At the top end (50s onwards) there's no comparison, enchanters are way more useful in groups for all their utility/CC.

Druids fall behind with heals, and while they make good PL'ers and porters... they're not so useful :(

Faerie Blossom
04-16-2013, 01:49 PM
Druid tracking seems to have less range here than it did on live.

*shrug*

A1551
04-21-2013, 10:32 AM
Track is in fact getting fixed to match the classic timeline in the next patch, according to the bug forum as tecmos mentioned.

Specifically, it is going from max 125 skill to max 50 skill, and won't go back till a few months into velious. Considering bards (with track 100) can track roughly as far as they can see mobs, I'm guessing there's gonna be a lot of pissed off druids out there, along with an increase in the price of ranger/bard gear :)

Definitely 100% classic though. But the bottom line there is I wouldn't let track factor into your decision.

Honestly, I'm a bit biased too, but enchanter is a vastly more dynamic, adaptable, overpowered, and most importantly, FUN class to play. Since getting 60 on my chanter I've tried a lot of other classes, and compared to the functionality of an enchanter honestly they all feel like only half a class (in many cases much less!).

Splorf22
04-21-2013, 01:32 PM
Honestly, I'm a bit biased too, but enchanter is a vastly more dynamic, adaptable, overpowered, and most importantly, FUN class to play. Since getting 60 on my chanter I've tried a lot of other classes, and compared to the functionality of an enchanter honestly they all feel like only half a class (in many cases much less!).

100% agree. I think the only really comparable class is the Shaman, and to some extent the Necromancer (a poor man's enchanter where it counts, but with a few nice extra tricks).

SirAlvarex
04-22-2013, 12:24 PM
100% agree. I think the only really comparable class is the Shaman, and to some extent the Necromancer (a poor man's enchanter where it counts, but with a few nice extra tricks).

It's funny, because after playing a Bard to 56, all I can think of when playing other classes is how underpowered they are. A Shaman and Enchanter can solo pretty well thanks to long duration charm/slow, but nothing gives me the feeling of having complete control over a groups ability to succeed as much as a Bard.

Splorf22
04-22-2013, 07:55 PM
Bards are fun, although a lot of work. But in the end bards are gimp enchanters when it comes to control spells.

Clark
04-23-2013, 12:36 AM
It's funny, because after playing a Bard to 56, all I can think of when playing other classes is how underpowered they are. A Shaman and Enchanter can solo pretty well thanks to long duration charm/slow, but nothing gives me the feeling of having complete control over a groups ability to succeed as much as a Bard.

The hasted/dual wielding charm pet ontop of everything else is what makes Ench more OP.

Bards are still awesome though; not enough of them endgame.

Tecmos Deception
04-23-2013, 08:03 AM
It's funny, because after playing a Bard to 56, all I can think of when playing other classes is how underpowered they are. A Shaman and Enchanter can solo pretty well thanks to long duration charm/slow, but nothing gives me the feeling of having complete control over a groups ability to succeed as much as a Bard.

Have you played an enchanter at 55+?

The fact that you say shamans and enchanters can solo "pretty well" makes me think you have no idea what either of them can actually do at high levels, whether solo OR grouped.

SirAlvarex
04-23-2013, 02:11 PM
Have you played an enchanter at 55+?

The fact that you say shamans and enchanters can solo "pretty well" makes me think you have no idea what either of them can actually do at high levels, whether solo OR grouped.

Yeah yeah, Mr Solo Challenge :)

My point was for grouping. In a typical group setup as a Bard I'm able to do a "little bit of everything" to lock down encounters, and do so essentially forever.

Yes Shamans can slow tank dragons in Velious with Torpor and Enchanters can use hasted/duel wielding pets to give rogues a run for their money. And those help amazingly in groups, as I've seen Shaman's tank, Necro's Heal, and Enchanters be the only DPS in XP groups. Don't underestimate the ability of a well played Bard to trivialize an encounter no matter the setup.

And my response was mostly to:
dynamic, adaptable, overpowered, and most importantly, FUN class to play
but the double nested quotes didn't work. That's the lot I'm throwing Bards into.

And man, you took me placing Bards into the a similar discussion as *necros* hard. Don't hate the do-it-all maestros!

Splorf22
04-23-2013, 03:20 PM
I played a bard to 38. They are a ton of fun for sure (of course I had a fungi tunic, so I was tanking quite a bit. It was almost like playing both of my toons at once). I think bards and enchanters are pretty close except for charm:

* Bards get slightly better mana regen, and HP regen too, and more/better group buffs
* Bard lull is not resisted nearly as much
* Bards can put out a bit of melee damage
* Bard 'cc' is charm and that can put out some melee damage as well
* Bards with their plate armor additional hitpoints are tougher than enchanters
* Selos is badass outdoors

* Enchanters get better haste
* Enchanters get ae mez
* Enchanters can lockdown 6-10 targets compared to 3 for a bard
* Enchanters get 4 slot dispell
* Enchanters get much better slow
* Enchanters do much better with high MR mobs with tash+longer duration spells
* Enchanters get stuns - lots and lots of stuns

Where the train goes completely off the tracks is when the enchanter starts charming a pet that puts out 100+ dps while still having enough mana to keep doing CC, buffs, and even a few debuffs. Basically as long as there are caster mobs around to tap and mobs that are low enough level to charm reliably, enchanters are just better.

Of course in PVP and for raid targets bards do much better: the charmed pets are feared or dispelled, and the nutty good bard resist buffs are extremely important.

Malone88
04-23-2013, 03:54 PM
The hasted/dual wielding charm pet ontop of everything else is what makes Ench more OP.
Amen, brother!

Meanwhile, group is getting debuff/haste/mana regen/and crowd control from chanter.

Bards can only do three of these at a time and when multiple
adds come, haste and mana regen are unavailable when
the group needs it most, because the bard is twisting in mez.

Only things Bards got on Chanters, IMO, is:

Selos (Outdoor Only)
Snare
Better Armor
HP Regen

SirAlvarex
04-23-2013, 04:41 PM
Enchanters definitely get better haste from a per % standpoint. But Bard Epic haste adds +30 to attack (according to wiki...can't get my epic till Undead Bard), and Bards also get Haste v2 in Velious, which might not really matter that much since everyone on this server is already geared to the point where they can already reach max haste.

No doubt a chanter can keep 10 mobs locked down pretty well, but a Bard can keep 6 locked down indefinitely since mez doesn't take any mana. They can also get rez'd in a raid and immediately go into CC mode while a chanter has to have something to tap before they can get started.

You guys know your chanters, so I won't mention the obvious awesomeness they posses, however you missed out on a few things Bards have that chanters don't quite have access to:

* Buff resists by over 80 (150 for magic)
* An unlimited target AE snare/slow/fear, which makes it possible to snap aggro a train to save your guild during a raid (think Fear raids)
* Unlimited target AE DoTs, which as everyone already realizes allows for pretty quick leveling
* Group DA (haven't reach 60 yet, so not quite sure how awesome this one is)
* 3-second manaless mez, which doubles as a casting mob stopper (assuming no-resists, which I assume Chanters would have to deal with aswell?)
* Can cast said spells/song on the run, which isn't as big a deal for some of the better chanters who know how to use AE stun, but it's a big deal in lower level groups (pre-50)
* Until the next patch, can single pull any mob that can't see through hide.
* Until the next patch, can sneak/hide/invis through dungeons like a rogue for CR's
* Highsun is important for finding placeholders in large outdoor zones (Quillmane cycle, Skyfire Named cycle)
* Single Target Debuffs for each resist type.
* They have track

As for the dispell, Bards get a group dispell (which I've never used) and a 4-slot single target dispell. Or atleast according to the spell data it's 4-slot.

Does chanter lull require Line of Sight? Never tried it, but bard lull doesn't require a LoS.

And Chanters have the winning formula on stuns. There are 2 AE stuns right? Bards only get 1, and it's at 59.

But yeah, I basically mentioned "how to use the tools" while mostly the things mentioned so far is "what are their tools", as I'm sure enchanters can stack some of their debuffs/stuns in a way that make others just hang their head in shame.

And no, I'm not saying Chanters suck. Nor am I saying Bards are better, because obviously I won't convince anyone of that hah. But a well played Bard can do just as well in a non-solo environment :) . They can do a little bit of everything that's required.

Well, that's mostly because I never really tried to solo in dungeons...but with a well timed bard charm I did alright in testing in LGuk.

Seriously tho, didn't mean to turn this into a Bard thread, just wanted to point out the omission in the list of OP classes :)

Tecmos Deception
04-23-2013, 04:45 PM
* Buff resists by over 80 (150 for magic)
* An unlimited target AE snare/slow/fear, which makes it possible to snap aggro a train to save your guild during a raid (think Fear raids)
* Unlimited target AE DoTs, which as everyone already realizes allows for pretty quick leveling
* Group DA (haven't reach 60 yet, so not quite sure how awesome this one is)
* 3-second manaless mez, which doubles as a casting mob stopper (assuming no-resists, which I assume Chanters would have to deal with aswell?)
* Can cast said spells/song on the run, which isn't as big a deal for some of the better chanters who know how to use AE stun, but it's a big deal in lower level groups (pre-50)
* Until the next patch, can single pull any mob that can't see through hide.
* Until the next patch, can sneak/hide/invis through dungeons like a rogue for CR's
* Highsun is important for finding placeholders in large outdoor zones (Quillmane cycle, Skyfire Named cycle)
* Single Target Debuffs for each resist type.
* They have track

I didn't miss these things, Sir. I've had a bard higher level on the p99 than you have! But these aren't things that are very relevant to the vast majority of groups, and that's what you were talking about when this chanter vs. bard discussion started.

Bards are powerful in limited situations where their group needs most of the bard's key abilities, and they can manage to fit into a group that already is very solid. That's not the definition of being overpowered, though. That's probably more like "properly balanced."

SirAlvarex
04-23-2013, 04:50 PM
I didn't miss these things, Sir. I've had a bard higher level on the p99 than you have! But these aren't things that are very relevant to the vast majority of groups, and that's what you were talking about when this chanter vs. bard discussion started.

Haha, not quite ;) I was pointing at the versatility a Bard gives to a group made them feel more powerful to me. IE I feel like if a group has a need, as a Bard I can step up and take care of business (except healing and tanking uber mobs).

But I'll stop now. I derailed the thread and didn't mean to do that.

--edit
Missed your edit. I think then that the disagreement comes down to how we perceive the power. I think our last two posts is a great example of us both being on the same page, but with different conclusions. IE I feel like a jack-of-all-trades exhibits more overall power for a group, while the chanters ability to CC/Charm makes them extremely powerful at destroying a mobs HP...plus regen/haste/mez.

Splorf22
04-23-2013, 05:15 PM
What is irritating Tecmos and me is that you are like 'yeah, enchanters can charm' and then moving on when in reality the argument should be 'enchanters have long duration charm, therefore nothing else matters'

edit: I should also mention when I did my class selection guide, it ended up being enchanters, monks and shaman are OP, rangers, paladins, druids, and wizards are weak, and everything else is in the middle. Note that this is an average over all situations; in the right situations any class is fantastic.

SirAlvarex
04-23-2013, 05:31 PM
What is irritating Tecmos and me is that you are like 'yeah, enchanters can charm' and then moving on when in reality the argument should be 'enchanters have long duration charm, therefore nothing else matters'

edit: I should also mention when I did my class selection guide, it ended up being enchanters, monks and shaman are OP, rangers, paladins, druids, and wizards are weak, and everything else is in the middle. Note that this is an average over all situations; in the right situations any class is fantastic.

Ah, and what sent me off was the complete opposite. Where it was mentioned that Enchanters are uber awesome because of charm, and here us Bards were being ignored when we can do so much for a group.

And I guess I was misinterpreted on long duration charm. I felt it was obvious that that was the corner stone of an enchanters power (plus mez/haste/regen), and my glossing over that was misconstrued. Sorry 'bout that!

I tried leveling a Chanter but couldn't get past 32. Even with Charming the downtime was killing me. I have a 25 Shaman and that's going better with the Fungi/Dragonborn sash/Poison Wind Censer. Can't wait till he gets to the OP zone.

But I'll just go back to my little Bard corner and be content with being such an overlooked class :) Practically 90% of the groups I get in have to point out that I'm a "good bard", so I feel like I have to defend our class against a stigma that we can't do jack. A Bard-Lobbyist if you will lol.

Okay for real, my last post on the subject. Go back to Druid vs. Enchanter! Nothing to see here!

Malone88
04-23-2013, 05:54 PM
Don't think anyone is saying that bards are bad, but chanters a little
better from a grouping standpoint. I think most groups would welcome
either one and groups that have both are rockin' it...;)

IMO, chanters and bards add so much to a group...and I would rank
bards over druids for what they bring to groups, unless you absolutely
need a healer.

williestargell
04-24-2013, 10:02 AM
Few points in favor of Druids:

Velious: Overall great for druids. Alot of outdoor zones to solo or group in with animals to charm. Ports and speed are even more important when dealing with three continents. New heals. Undoing alot of nerfs we've seen to make things "classic."

Druid's utility is amazing.

Druids are not the weak link in groups - Backup heals (sometimes main healer), nukes, getting to the zone in half the time, evacs, and snare is enough alone to keep a druid in your group. Good groups are not necessarily those with the most dps, those groups die lots more often too.

Druid's level LOTS faster than enchanters solo.

Numbers favor druids. There are way too many enchanters on p99 server already.

A1551
04-24-2013, 10:56 AM
Few points in favor of Druids:

Velious: Overall great for druids. Alot of outdoor zones to solo or group in with animals to charm. Ports and speed are even more important when dealing with three continents. New heals. Undoing alot of nerfs we've seen to make things "classic."

Druid's utility is amazing.

Druids are not the weak link in groups - Backup heals (sometimes main healer), nukes, getting to the zone in half the time, evacs, and snare is enough alone to keep a druid in your group. Good groups are not necessarily those with the most dps, those groups die lots more often too.

Druid's level LOTS faster than enchanters solo.

Numbers favor druids. There are way too many enchanters on p99 server already.

Lol -- I'm glad you like playing your druid but most of your points above beyond the velious paragraph are pretty laughable. I like to have druids around, I like my druid, he's super useful for mobilization, tracking, etc. But let's be honest -- you need approx 0-1 druids in a group. Every group wants an enchanter (or Bard!), and will just be that much more powerful for having two, or even three. Classic EQ is terribly balanced, stupidly so in many cases. I'd be thrilled if the server had more enchanters..there are NOT "way too many" of us/them around. They are like clerics, the more the merrier :D What two enchanters can accomplish together in a group is almost unreal.

And druids leveling "LOTS" faster solo? Why would you think that? Druids level fast because then can charm kill animals, and quad things. Both are good experience, but having leveled both ways I guarantee you my chanter was able to kill 4 mobs and med up to full (usually with a high dungeon ZEM) as fast, or sometimes much faster than my druid can gather 4 mobs, quad kite them, and med up to full. At worst I'd say they are comparable. Now if you wanna talk about someone leveling "LOTS" faster than a chanter solo we can talk about bards swarm kiting if you want ;)

A1551
04-24-2013, 11:11 AM
As to the bard/chanter thing...I love bards. I really do. I think it's a travesty they're all too busy swarm kiting in OT to be leveling up in a dungeon somewhere with me because they bring a lot to the table.

My issue with bards is they have all these awesome abilities, but anything they are not actively focusing on doesn't work. So for example, an enchanter casts clarity on the group, the group gets 100% benefit of the clarity, no matter what is going on. Same with haste, etc. I can turn around and CC/slow/stun mobs while dpsing with my pet while everyone enjoys clarity and haste, mobs are slowed etc. Having to CC more mobs does not reduce the effectiveness of my buffs. The bard has to very selectively choose which to do. The more mobs bard is CC'ing means less manasong pulses, or less slowing, or less snaring, or less haste, etc. When things really hit the fan you end up losing your mana regen and haste or whatever precisely when you need it the most. Or if the bard is pulling that means no manasong. I can go pull all night long and the clerics still sitting there enjoying clarity. This isnt a knock on bard's I think its a great mechanic that makes all their very powerful abilities justified. But it is also why I think if I had to choose one over the other I'd rather have the chanter first. I'll happily take both though if the option presents itself :P

Faerie Blossom
04-24-2013, 11:19 AM
Druids can use swords, and that's pretty cool imo.

SirAlvarex
04-24-2013, 11:32 AM
From a pure strength standpoint, Druids have nothing on Enchanters. Enchanters have better charms and buffs. Those bring a lot to the table that no other class can "do better".

HOWEVER, every enchanter is at the mercy of a Druid when he wants to get around the world quickly :) . Druids have a lot of strength in the non-combat arena, and unfortunately Verant decided that should be included in combat balance. I mean it's kinda ridiculous when the closest "spelltype" brother to a Druid is a Shaman, and the Shaman not only gets better spells than the druid, but he gets them earlier.

With that said, on our Raids the druids are the second best "xp gank" class we bring along next to Wizards. They can actually put out a lot of burst DPS when they want to.

But still, if you are talking pure power Enchanters were just given such an incredibly stacked hand.

Vondra
05-06-2013, 11:34 PM
I actually played a druid first, then an enc second when I came here.

Druid is a good first toon. Easy to get rolling without gear (and most druid stuff is quite cheap too, good for a first character), easy to solo, you can get around no problem with your ports, sell ports for cash etc.

After I got plenty of cash together and my druid was in the low 50s...I started considering a serious character, which led me to enchanter.

Though I don't really "play" the druid anymore, I still use it regularly. When you have a druid alt, it's no problem getting potential groupmates where they need to be. Good go to character for trading stuff to go sell in EC. I wouldn't enjoy the game as much if I had no druid alt and I'm glad I played it first.

I think it's the best first character one can make.

Crawdad
05-31-2013, 11:21 AM
First post here, but all these classes are close to my heart, so here goes:

I played a raiding bard from Vanilla to the end of PoP religiously, so I do appreciate all the bardly love that's getting tossed around here, but any of these classes can do a lot given a good player behind the wheel.

I *think* the question is about end-game raiding, and as far as that's concerned, you're going to be accepted as whatever class you want to play depending on 1) available playtime 2) skill as a player. We had plenty of Druids who were amazing players, went out of their way to help their guildmates and the guild, and we would have been far worse off without them. So, as far as choice is concerned, play what you enjoy.

Play-style probably is the most important to picking which one. Druids are probably the easiest solo class in the game, beating necro only due to ease of travel and selling junk, and starting off as a good race; allows you to play very casually. Enchanters need a lot of attention to solo and group properly, but it pays off in a big way (until raids). Bards need even More attention, if that's possible, but they are amazing solo/in groups, and godly at raids.

Finally, many people are talking up Velious being so awesome, but I haven't seen anyone mention how "Meh" Velious is for casters, especially ones that rely on MR spells (Enchanters, Druids to a lesser extent), and how boring most Velious raids are for Enchanters. Buff, Tash, toss a slow (until the Shamans can stick one), you're pretty much done. Heck, our Enchanters used to "tank" drakes in NtoV when our Rangers' discs were on cooldown. Druids have it easier only because they have other resist checks and have a larger utility pool, but they are in no way in demand like Enchanters or Bards. Enchanters will Always have a spot in a group, are amazing solo/duo'ers, but are crazy boring in pretty much every Velious raid. Bards will be in demand just like always, and this wont change until/if they ever get Fading Memories and AE Resist songs, which just bumps them from S to God tier.