Re: Raid Situation

[Byrjun]

So Rogean just posted this:

Long story short, the current raid situation was not approved in full by management, neither was it approved by a majority of the guilds as I received PM's from almost half or more of them voicing disapproval of the policy.

The raid suspension is still in place. Talks will resume.

This is completely baffling to me. The proposed raid rules that I thought were all approved of a couple days ago were excellent. "Tier 2" guilds get a LOT more raid content. "Tier 1" guilds get some extra content as well. It seemed like a complete win-win situation and it seemed like some really good things were coming out of the bad of the raid suspension. And now this.

This whole situation is kinda disappointing.

Discuss.

[Aaron]

I'm almost positive that a majority of the raid guilds approved. Who are the guilds that were not onboard? Doljon wasn't. I'm not aware of any others.

[Byrjun]

Has Doljon ever said what kind of raid plan they do approve of? They didn't approve of the sky rotation or the tier 2 raid draft/rotation either. Not a dig, just curious what they want exactly.

[Aaron]

Has Doljon ever said what kind of raid plan they do approve of? They didn't approve of the sky rotation or the tier 2 raid draft/rotation either. Not a dig, just curious what they want exactly.

They approve of FFA competition.

[Aaron]

So...what now? I guess the guilds that didn't agree on Sirken's ruleset need to be named? So that we can work with them on something they approve of?

[Kope]

I will not speak negatively of anyone, all I will say is that the majority of the individuals at the meeting were not happy with the outcome.

[Hitpoint]

I will not speak negatively of anyone, all I will say is that the majority of the individuals at the meeting were not happy with the outcome.

= BDA was not happy with this outcome.

[Byrjun]

I will not speak negatively of anyone, all I will say is that the majority of the individuals at the meeting were not happy with the outcome.

Out of curiosity, any reason why? All I heard the past few weeks was "simulated repops would really fix the whole thing by introducing more pieces of the pie to split up, but the GMs won't do simulated repops so that idea is off the table." Now the GMs agreed to do simulated repops, everyone gets to kill more shit than they did before. Absolutely everyone benefits. What's the drawbacks?

[-Catherin-]

Long story short was that the agreement that you all saw was not an agreement. Everyone was told this was how it was going to be whether we liked it or not.

Obviously Rogean didn't agree with that. (or whoever, Rogean did NOT say it was himself personally in opposition, just staff was not all in agreement)

Either way, Thank you Rogean

[SyanideGas]

= BDA was not happy with this outcome.

You're an idiot. There were other guilds than just us disagreeing with this ruling.

[Aaron]

New raid scene was fun for the one night it lasted.

Oh well.

[thrump]

What in the world is there to be unhappy about? Many more mobs for T2 to do whatever you agree to do with -- rotate as desired without needing to track.

[Byrjun]

All I've heard is that some guilds were against this decision, but no actual reasons why they're against it. What are the cons of literally everyone on the server having a lot more raid content available to them every month?

[Frieza_Prexus]

What are the specific complaints that prevented this plan from working?

[uygi]

I'll be the first to say that I thought the more or less dictated terms we thought we were getting sounded a little crazy.

[-Catherin-]

What in the world is there to be unhappy about? Many more mobs for T2 to do whatever you agree to do with -- rotate as desired without needing to track.

Well the agreement that was enforced left a lot of room for it to completely fall apart for starters. See: Bob guild attempting to snipe from rotation in hour 1.

Need something that is going to be enforced by the staff IMO

[quido]

It only took like 48 hours since the announcement to hear something =P beautiful

[Hitpoint]

You're an idiot. There were other guilds than just us disagreeing with this ruling.

Don't be so mad. You killed mobs last night, most guilds didn't, and now raid suspension is back on so you can keep holding out for more than you deserve.

[Frieza_Prexus]

So the issue is NOT about what the plan provided; the issue was with enforcement?

[Aaron]

Well the agreement that was enforced left a lot of room for it to completely fall apart for starters. See: Bob guild attempting to snipe from rotation in hour 1.

Need something that is going to be enforced by the staff IMO

But does that matter? It was a player arranged agreement. If an outlier like Lord Bob prefers to compete, then they should be able to.

[Lanuven]

You're an idiot. There were other guilds than just us disagreeing with this ruling.

What Skarry said. It was forced by Staff and not even all the staff was on board. Basically one guide making rules that no one liked. Thats why everyone is back on suspension as per Rogean

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1262707&postcount=1

[sanforce]

lol, this is unbelievable. How many free mobs does T2 need to be content?

[Lanuven]

lol, this is unbelievable. How many free mobs does T2 need to be content?

I dont think anyone came and handed out loot to my knowledge.

[Aaron]

lol, this is unbelievable. How many free mobs does T2 need to be content?

Dolj got a free mob last night, with no loot to show for it.

What do you mean by "free?"

[Byrjun]

Well the agreement that was enforced left a lot of room for it to completely fall apart for starters. See: Bob guild attempting to snipe from rotation in hour 1.

The way I understood it is that a rotation wasn't part of the agreement because the staff still wants to encourage competition. I thought the "draft rotation" system was initiated by BDA on an opt-in basis.

[-Catherin-]

So the issue is NOT about what the plan provided; the issue was with enforcement?

oh the plan provided was obviously an issue too. I was just pointing out ONE thing that could have gone terribly wrong with it :)

[Autotune]

The way I understood it is that a rotation wasn't part of the agreement because the staff still wants to encourage competition. I thought the "draft rotation" system was initiated by BDA on an opt-in basis.

Well, that one guild that tried to get fay from that other guild proved that competition is alive and well.

[Yinaltin]

lots of time was wasted on vp entrance yesterday, as on the plane entrance :) should have cleaned your house or did the laundry

[JayN]

well at least tier got free loots yesterday before de-pop'd grats on your loots

[Clark]

This whole situation is kinda disappointing.
This whole situation is kinda disappointing.This whole situation is kinda disappointing.This whole situation is kinda disappointing.This whole situation is kinda disappointing.This whole situation is kinda disappointing.

[Aaron]

Well, that one guild that tried to get fay from that other guild proved that competition is alive and well.

Indeed. Competition was not outlawed. An agreement was made between several raid guilds, and one opted out in favor of competition. Which is fine.

[bankad]

well this was a shame one of my best nights in eq for years killing severilous to be taken away so quickly :(

[-Catherin-]

The way I understood it is that a rotation wasn't part of the agreement because the staff still wants to encourage competition. I thought the "draft rotation" system was initiated by BDA on an opt-in basis.

possibly.

there were plenty of things right with it an plenty of things wrong with it.

I don't think however it is good to make any other assumption past the staff wanting an agreement that is fair to all and that what everyone can agree to though. That basically didn't happen. So here we are again :(

[sanforce]

What do you mean by "free?"

I mean mobs handed to guilds that can't or won't compete. If a lot of the guilds were not satisfied with the recent rulings, it is probably due to the lack of free mobs being tossed their way. Does T2 need all of the mobs outside of VP to be happy?

[Hitpoint]

possibly.

there were plenty of things right with it an plenty of things wrong with it.

I don't think however it is good to make any other assumption past the staff wanting an agreement that is fair to all and that what everyone can agree to though. That didn't happen.

This does not exist.

[Aaron]

I mean mobs handed to guilds that can't or won't compete. If a lot of the guilds were not satisfied with the recent rulings, it is probably due to the lack of free mobs being tossed their way. Does T2 need all of the mobs outside of VP to be happy?

I feel like AG competed yesterday. Dolj beat us to our first target and wiped. Then raced us to our second target.

Was that not competition? Felt like it to me.

[sanforce]

This does not exist.

Completely agree.

When competition is thrown out, everyone has a different opinion on how the raid scene should be managed. The better your guild is, the more competition it will want. The worse your guild is, the more instance/rotated that your guild will want. Everyone else falls somewhere in between.

[Byrjun]

The way I see it is that you have guilds like Doljo that want to compete and will never agree to something like a rotation. Then you have guilds like BDA that don't want competition and will only agree to a rotation. I'm not saying either is wrong (everyone is entitled to play the game the way they like) but the problem is that it's absolutely impossible to please both of these polar opposite preferences. Someone will have to give, I'm not sure if Rogean will allow guilds to filibuster the server's raid scene forever.

[quido]

Fake female who's spent 3 years farming Lguk not happy with generous allotment of free raid mobs.

Surprised

[joppykid]

Aweee. Now I can't go to Sky and kill a mob for my monks epic :-(. Just got robe today. Shucks.

[Imba]

it really this simple.
the plan has to be simple

i say BDA/TMO/IB/FE/Next Big Tier Guild cant raid for X days every month.
bam Easy

[Autotune]

This does not exist.

I linked something awhile back to a bunch of guilds/staff that was as close to what both sides wanted and most of them couldn't even agree to it.

"because we don't want to just give them targets without them earning it"

and

"We aren't getting an equal share"


both sides is cluttered with idiots.

I think that bob guild showed that T2 won't be "given" free targets, there are guilds that are willing to compete on those rotations (who either aren't given a spot or don't want to be given a spot).

[-Catherin-]

Fake female who's spent 3 years farming Lguk not happy with generous allotment of free raid mobs.

Surprised

The only part I was not happy with was everyone waiting around for 24 hours with the impression that the ban had been lifted.

I actually thought the plan was acceptable Jeremy. Not perfect but acceptable. I however am not part of that process. Trolling is beginning now though so time to remove myself. Have fun.

[Snagglepuss]

So..family guilds complain because the staff is dictating terms on their tier 2 repopped mobs on a free to play server run by volunteers?

I've heard it all... I'm disgusted by the entitlement of some community members.

[Hitpoint]

I don't see what is so bad with the rules we had last night. T1 didn't get anything important taken from them. T2 gets lots of free mobs including guaranteed 8 t1 mobs a month. That shit was perfect. Imo the people who won't agree to it should come out and voice their objections.

[Visual]

any plan that involves 10 raid mobs per month for a peak 1000 pop server is *fart noise*

[Imba]

oh and what would you want? 100% rotation?

[Tecmos Deception]

I don't see what is so bad with the rules we had last night. T1 didn't get anything important taken from them. T2 gets lots of free mobs including guaranteed 8 t1 mobs a month. That shit was perfect. Imo the people who won't agree to it should come out and voice their objections.

Well I don't know about perfect, but I couldn't really complain about it. And I'll complain about almost anything. So it had to be pretty damn decent, right?

[Byrjun]

any plan that involves 10 raid mobs per month for a peak 1000 pop server is *fart noise*

That's why I thought the 3-4 simulated repops a month plan was great. Extra content for a content-starved server.

Still haven't heard one reason why it's bad besides "we don't agree to it."

=\

[sanluen]

The main issue was not how well the new raid rules treated Tier 2.

The issue was that the plans that were being discussed were vastly different from this one, then there was a 20 minute break for dinner, and all of the sudden these rules were established - which to most of us came form left field, and were nothing like hte plans we were talking about.

To be fair, this enacted ruleset was more fair to casual guilds than many other proposals, but it was really frustrating to take part in many hours of discussion and debate and proposal generation and discussion to have it all thrown away and a new, completely un-discussed plan be put into effect.

[chief]

the 1000+ bda members all pm'd rogean disapproving of the current system, you heard it here first. Ces

[Hitpoint]

The main issue was not how well the new raid rules treated Tier 2.

The issue was that the plans that were being discussed were vastly different from this one, then there was a 20 minute break for dinner, and all of the sudden these rules were established - which to most of us came form left field, and were nothing like hte plans we were talking about.

To be fair, this enacted ruleset was more fair to casual guilds than many other proposals, but it was really frustrating to take part in many hours of discussion and debate and proposal generation and discussion to have it all thrown away and a new, completely un-discussed plan be put into effect.

So, if there was a new meeting tomorrow and everyone got to talk about this deal, hypothetically you may just agree to it and end all this?

[Autotune]

The main issue was not how well the new raid rules treated Tier 2.

The issue was that the plans that were being discussed were vastly different from this one, then there was a 20 minute break for dinner, and all of the sudden these rules were established - which to most of us came form left field, and were nothing like hte plans we were talking about.

To be fair, this enacted ruleset was more fair to casual guilds than many other proposals, but it was really frustrating to take part in many hours of discussion and debate and proposal generation and discussion to have it all thrown away and a new, completely un-discussed plan be put into effect.

I never seen a plan enforced, just rules on repops and some general rules.

It clearly stated that guilds still needed to come up with a raiding solution for the rest of the spawned targets.

[Jarnauga]

BDA also raped my sister and stole my lunch.

[Nuggets]

Can i please just have my character moved out of posky ffs? ive been stuck there for a week.

-Moved to EC by Derubael, thank you

[sanluen]

BDA also raped my sister and stole my lunch.


False, your sister is ugly and no one wants your baguettes.





And hitpoint, hypothetically ... perhaps? Several of the proposals that were on the table and being discussed seemed to be significantly better for casual guilds.


And autotune, you are correct, though (while I was not at the meeting) I am not sure if it was presented like that to the guild representatives?

[chief]

BDA's raid proposal is where? I didn't get to read it just them shutting down everyone elses ideas.

[Autotune]

And autotune, you are correct, though (while I was not at the meeting) I am not sure if it was presented like that to the guild representatives?

I can't comment on what was said at the meeting.

However, what Sirken posted was presented as if nothing but the FFA repops and those couple of rules were in stone. I'm not sure why he decided to lift the suspension if nothing had been solved that originally brought about the suspension.

[Funkutron5000]

I can't comment on what was said at the meeting.

However, what Sirken posted was presented as if nothing but the FFA repops and those couple of rules were in stone. I'm not sure why he decided to lift the suspension if nothing had been solved that originally brought about the suspension.

Since a lot of Rog's post had to deal with people being douchebags to each other, threads like these clearly illustrate that problem is nowhere near being solved.

[Nune]

This is fucking stupid. 8 guilds are trying to cater to their own needs and you want 1 unanimous agreement. It isn't going to happen. You need to start drawing some lines or putting some boundaries on this that don't fuck over the guilds who were never an issue in the first place. Half of the T2 guilds never got the spawns everyone's campaigning over, but we can't do our Planar clears that we DO FOR FUN, NOT LOOT, because "certain" guilds are just going to veto everything that isn't their proposal.

This needs to be adjusted to a majority decision, not a 100% decision. If 7 out of 10 guilds agree on a proposal, than pass it. Set it in stone and lets get this moving. The other 3 can fucking not raid or fall in line. Seems pretty simple?

[Alarti0001]

= BDA was not happy with this outcome.

Chest and Co, server terrorists.


TMO/IB/FE/Azure supported this agreement. I saw Catherin post that she liked it (Taken). Who is this majority?

[Pint]

Death to rotations.

[Redstars]

so why is there a suspension in the first place exactly?

[Ciroco]

Because we never learned to play nice.

[Sckrilla]

All that matters is that A-team GOT their epic(s)!

WE WANT GUTS FOR ZANDERR!

[Uteunayr]

The way I see it is that you have guilds like Doljo that want to compete and will never agree to something like a rotation. Then you have guilds like BDA that don't want competition and will only agree to a rotation. I'm not saying either is wrong (everyone is entitled to play the game the way they like) but the problem is that it's absolutely impossible to please both of these polar opposite preferences. Someone will have to give, I'm not sure if Rogean will allow guilds to filibuster the server's raid scene forever.

You can please both of these polar opposite preferences, so long as neither side is too greedy with their allotted share with which to play out their style of game.

The Staff Proposal offered this, as I have argued numerous times. The amended staff proposal (which was taken down following the pushed through current system) would go something like this, and I would like to hear how this isn't "fair", and what your definition is that brings you to such a conclusion.

You classify guilds as Hardcore (Tier 1), Casual (Tier 2). The hardcores manage the hardcores, the casuals manage the casuals. VP will always be hardcore, and any T2 guild that wants to engage in VP content must become hardcore, and play on hardcore terms (FFA, training, whatever it is you all like, as some people truly enjoy training, whatever Tier 1 decides). The epic mobs (CT/Inny/VS/Trak) go in a rotation between the tiers of first pop being Tier 1, second being Tier 2, and third being a FFA competition between Tier 1 and Tier 2. All sub-epic mobs are in rotation between Tier 1 and Tier 2.

This splits the mobs, weighted in favor of Tier 1 so they would get approximately 2-3 mobs a day (I believe it totalled to around 70-75 a month) to compete over with themselves. Meanwhile, this would give the Tier 2 guilds approximately 1-1.5 a day, which can be rotated amongst guilds to give 10 guilds 1 raid mob per week, if Tier 2 decided to go that way. Further, it allows for Tier 1 to have not just a 50/50 split of epic mobs, but an assured 1/3, and the ability to fight over another 1/3, which would come down to 2/3 in 3 weeks per epic mob.

And the true beauty of this is that the mobs never come into interacting with each other. So if you want to be causal, more friendly raiding, then you can be tier 2, you can earn your epic, and you can have a good time. If you want to compete so you get more mobs (about 4x more) with access to the top raiding tier (VP), then you can do that too.

Since the tier 1 raiders are raiding their half of the server, all month long, and the tier 2 raiders are raiding their casual stuff all month long, neither one will interact on the same mob, other than the FFA Epic mobs, and that's only if a casual guild decides they want to stretch their legs and "try out" competition, as maybe a guild (in the future) has only ever played in a rotation, and would like to see what competitive raiding is like to join it.

Casuals can be casual, hardcores can be hardcore. If you play hardcore, you must accept FFA, and that style of play, if you are casual, you must abide by whatever council mechanism that tier 2 institutes. It lets each side decide their own fate, without interacting or negatively impacting the other.

Do this, and many of the issues we see will disappear. People will raid with other like minded people against other like minded people.

------

Pre-emptive responses:

"BDA just wants to dominate tier 2!"

http://i.imgur.com/c8eSBDC.gif

"That's not fair!"

First off, define it to yourself, and then realize what fairness is is an elusive concept. One of the greatest political philosophers of the 20th century, a man named John Rawls, best explained fairness (approximately) as the state in which decisions and bargaining are made without knowing one's biases or bargaining positions. This system allots a heavy value of raid mobs to the hardcores to compete over, and it gives another, smaller cut to the casuals. Consider whether the problem with this plan is actually lack of competition or fairness (already allotted a large amount, and the tier 1 can compete among themselves for that great share), or if it is that some people truly derive their pleasure from other people's failures, and this system would prevent that.

"That's not classic!"

Nor is much of this server. But, this server aspires to classic to as much of a degree as it can. What everyone should have in common is a desire to experience their glory days of classic EverQuest. Classic is not defined entirely by competition, as many came from servers that had rotations. This allows two completely different styles of classic to exist simultaneously on the server, so that everyone, not just those from competitive servers, can enjoy returning to their classic experience, and can do it without hurting other players' classic experience. Unless you want to go to VP. Then you have to play a very specific type of classic.

[Uteunayr]

BDA's raid proposal is where? I didn't get to read it just them shutting down everyone elses ideas.

BDA did not clog the system with another proposal, as, from what I gather, BDA was quite accepting of Rogean's proposal. It was then amended into a system that provided for even more to the tier 1 raiders, and it was posted up on the raid discussion forums, but taken down due to the end of discussion this past Sunday.

[Alarti0001]

BDA did not clog the system with another proposal, as, from what I gather, BDA was quite accepting of Rogean's proposal. It was then amended into a system that provided for even more to the tier 1 raiders, and it was posted up on the raid discussion forums, but taken down due to the end of discussion this past Sunday.

However the majority of the server liked the current raid rules. Thanks BDA!

[Uteunayr]

However the majority of the server liked the current raid rules. Thanks BDA!

Long story short, the current raid situation was not approved in full by management, neither was it approved by a majority of the guilds as I received PM's from almost half or more of their leadership voicing disapproval of the policy.

Unless BDA became almost half or more of the leadership of the majority of guilds...

[element08]

Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.

[Alarti0001]

Read please.

Words don't equal correctness or truth. Thanks kiddo!

Oh also add A-team.... to the pool who liked the solution.

[Gaffin 3.0]

your all retarded

[August]

There are 11 mobs outside of VP. 2 of them are level 52-restricted.

They pop on average 4 times a month.

That's 44 raid mobs per month. There are at least 6 tier 2 guilds, and 3 tier 1 guilds - that's being pretty stingy

That's 9 guilds that want to compete for 44 mobs a month. That's approximately 5 mobs per guild.

Do you think it's fair to you that you only get 5 mobs a month for your guild?

Oh, you don't? Well that's fine, but keep in mind that if you take another mob, then someone else only gets 4 mobs a month. How many mobs do you think you deserve? Is it 10 mobs a month? Well then another guild gets 0 mobs a month. Do 4 guilds want 10 mobs a month? Gratz 4 mobs total for the rest of the 5 guilds.

This is an unsolvable problem on an EMU server that's been stale for too long. My numbers may not be accurate (i don't raid here) but that's the actual reality of the situation. A LOT of people can kill the mobs. A LOT of people want mobs. There are a static number of mobs per month.

No one guild can be dominant without severely cutting off access to those mobs to the rest.
No coalition of guilds can exist without everyone getting a very very thin slice of pie.

The solution is more mobs, or people being content with less.

Staff / Development are going to have to solve this problem with a coded solution. We are all arguing with each other to no great effect because the numbers behind all these solutions just don't add up.

You can put tiers on stuff, you can put restrictions on who and what can engage and in what time period, but the end result is straight up numbers.

44 Mobs a month

[Autotune]

your all retarded

my all retarded?

[Uteunayr]

Words don't equal correctness or truth. Thanks kiddo!

Then please, share your insights into Rogean's mailbox in which you can show definitively that Rogean is lying. You can do this by showing that almost or more than half of the leadership of a majority of the guilds on the server did not, in fact, PM him voicing concerns.

You say words don't equal correctness or truth, so put up or shut up. I take Rogean at his word, because it is his inbox, and it is his server. If you have better information to prove truth, please post incontrovertible evidence, and I will cede the point.

[Poeskas]

Well the agreement that was enforced left a lot of room for it to completely fall apart for starters. See: Bob guild attempting to snipe from rotation in hour 1.

Need something that is going to be enforced by the staff IMO

agreed

[quido]

It became abundantly clear two days ago after the Sirken-announced ruleset that BDA was more concerned with taking from Tier1 than they were with providing for Tier2.

"We just got a sick deal, but why didn't you punish them more?!"

[Wrench]

Fake female who's spent 3 years farming Lguk not happy with generous allotment of free raid mobs.

Surprised

haha

not a big fan of cat, but you sound personally frustrated here, jeremy

[Gaffin 3.0]

my all retarded?

shut up

[Fountree]

One thing is certain, the attempt to overhaul the endgame has made ppl happier in general with the server and made p99 more classic + stable place....

..................................BAHAHAHA

Velious will solve this

[Autotune]

shut up

I haven't said anything, just sitting here typing on the forums.

[Fountree]

It became abundantly clear two days ago after the Sirken-announced ruleset that BDA was more concerned with taking from Tier1 than they were with providing for Tier2.

"We just got a sick deal, but why didn't you punish them more?!"

Lol "we dont like you and how kill dragons all the time so you need to play our way"

[quido]

haha

not a big fan of cat, but you sound personally frustrated here, jeremy

I don't really care who is or isn't female as I don't solicit stupid romance over the internet, but I think it's pretty pathetic that most of Taken actually think "she" is some blonde chick.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Then please, share your insights into Rogean's mailbox in which you can show definitively that Rogean is lying. You can do this by showing that almost or more than half of the leadership of a majority of the guilds on the server did not, in fact, PM him voicing concerns.

You say words don't equal correctness or truth, so put up or shut up. I take Rogean at his word, because it is his inbox, and it is his server. If you have better information to prove truth, please post incontrovertible evidence, and I will cede the point.

Condensed version for Alarti: "Prove it."

[Obrae]

The whole debacle is pathetic,

Rogean killed his own staff credibility.

The server is full of crybabies.



The problem has always been : we have been in kunark for way too much time.
Let's wipe the server and start anew with a real progression. Removing shitty RMT items right off the bat.

That will fix the raid scene ... for awhile :)


wet dreams ... :)

[August]

44~ Mobs a month
9+ Guilds want the mobs

Math.

[Uteunayr]

44~ Mobs a month
9+ Guilds want the mobs

Math.

4.8bar9 mobs per guild per month discounting the approximate stuff, plus VP.

There you are.

[radditsu]

retarded?

[radditsu]

4.8bar9 mobs per guild per month.

There you are.

Round down dawg. Round down

[Nune]

Fake female who's spent 3 years farming Lguk not happy with generous allotment of free raid mobs.

Surprised

Guild sells dragon loot in EC, has an emotional meltdown over Larrikan's Masks.


Not surprised.

[chief]

^he mad

[Uteunayr]

Round down dawg. Round down

Well, you'd give 4 guilds 5 mobs, and 1 guild 4 mobs, and swap them through over the course of 5 months, approximately. Although that is dropping the .08, and treating it as 4.8. 4.9 gets a bit messier, so I kept it simple.

[Pan]

The issue for some, if not most, was the process whereby the agreement came into being.

[radditsu]

Well, you'd give 4 guilds 5 mobs, and 1 guild 4 mobs, and swap them through over the course of 5 months, approximately. Although that is dropping the .08, and treating it as 4.8. 4.9 gets a bit messier, so I kept it simple.

Got to take into account of the extended window stuff. May take the count down to 4.7 or less. I am not going to crunch math on that

[Uteunayr]

Got to take into account of the extended window stuff. May take the count down to 4.7 or less. I am not going to crunch math on that

That'd only stretch out the time frame, the means of keeping the distribution of mobs handed out this way is still possible, but would be stretched slightly due to variance. So: 4x guilds get 5x mobs per month +/- variance, and, 1x guild gets 4x mobs per month +/1 variance, rotating through for 5 +/- (sum of previous 5 month's of variance) months.

[Ciroco]

The issue for some, if not most, was the process whereby the agreement came into being.

I don't buy that. Who gives a damn how the system came about if it gives you what you want?

[Uteunayr]

I don't buy that. Who gives a damn how the system came about if it gives you what you want?

Because process matters, and always has with people?

[Fazlazen]

haha, the casual scum are given 2 full repops a month, yet still complain.

Once again, props rogain!

[gloine36]

Put in instancing and end the problem. Those that don't like it can go to the store and select the cheese and crackers they prefer.

[Byrjun]

The issue for some, if not most, was the process whereby the agreement came into being.

If I pooped a gold bar I'm pretty sure you'd take it and not be like "idk man that just came from your ass." It's a fuckin free gold bar, be grateful.

Just sayin.

[SyanideGas]

If I pooped a gold bar I'm pretty sure you'd take it and not be like "idk man that just came from your ass." It's a fuckin free gold bar, be grateful.

Just sayin.

A gold bar you shit is worth 0.

[feanan]

It's funny how this whole thing started because TMO is full of selfish, cheating, RMT'ing duping douche bags.

Yet every thread I read with TMO tears is them trying to blame everything on BDA.

Perhaps TMO should have tried making the server a better place in the 2 years they were on top instead of being forced in to it.

[Snagglepuss]

If I pooped a gold bar I'm pretty sure you'd take it and not be like "idk man that just came from your ass." It's a fuckin free gold bar, be grateful.

Just sayin.

But your ass dictated the terms of the gold.

[Byrjun]

A gold bar you shit is worth 0.

What.

Okay maybe the silly analogy didn't come across well. The point is if the raid agreement was great, why does it matter how it came about?

The raid agreement was different than what people were discussing because it involved simulated repops, which everyone thought were off the table. GMs agreed to simulated repops, which was a major concession.

[dav]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUUv4dweE1A

[slappytwotoes]

This is what happened from what I gather:

1. Talks were centered around a modified Rogean proposal that is being called the 1+1+1 Plan.

2. After the third hour, each group separated to work things out amongst themselves. T1 went into their own chat room, T2 to theirs and the Staff to theirs.

3. T2 finished in 15 minutes. T1 took 40minutes and Server staff jumped into their chat room for a good part of it.

4. Server staff comes out and announces that the plan we just had (I'll call it Sirken's plan) will be the definitive plan.

T2 guilds were pissed because that plan was not negotiated. They had just spent hours negotiating with the 1+1+1 plan as their baseline only to be dictated to that Sirken's new plan was the final decision.

My *guess* is that T1 was not going to capitulate to the 1+1+1 Plan and told Staff so. The Sirken Plan was then decided on so an agreement could be reached and raiding would continue.

T2 felt that coming to this decision without themselves present and also ending discussions at this point was an egregious breach of good faith. PMs went out to Rogean and it seems he agreed.

Welcome to Square 1

[Fael]

How many mobs do tier 2 guilds rotate between under the repop agreement ?

How many would they get under div Rogean plan?

Anyone do the per month math yet ?

Dolic

[Lagaidh]

But your ass dictated the terms of the gold.

I truly did LoL.

Bravo.

[Tecmos Deception]

I'll take your assgold, Byrjun, even though I called you a know-it-all.

[quido]

It's funny how this whole thing started because TMO is full of selfish, cheating, RMT'ing duping douche bags.

Yet every thread I read with TMO tears is them trying to blame everything on BDA.

Perhaps TMO should have tried making the server a better place in the 2 years they were on top instead of being forced in to it.

You're confusing two different things, ya moran. BDA stands accused of being unnecessarily obstinate in the discussions, not of causing whatever problems before these negotiations.

[Brut]

So forget all the pie slicing and fairness and whatnot, what really matters here is that some bloated egos were hurt?

[arsenalpow]

How many mobs do tier 2 guilds rotate between under the repop agreement ?

How many would they get under div Rogean plan?

Anyone do the per month math yet ?

Dolic

so let's do some back of the envelope math

before the banhammer came down on TMO the usual mob distribution was something like 80-90% for the hardcore guilds, Taken was socking to snag Innys, BDA was DOMINATING Vox (lol) and we'd maybe snag a target here or there. No other tier2 guilds were getting anything. Let's call that pool of mobs X

The Rogean plan was to split X mobs 50/50 between the tiers and any mobs that spawned from the additional repops would retain their tier assignments, so each tier gets 50% of X and most likely 50% of Y based on when the spawns fall

The plan that was enacted was pure FFA for the pool of X so that meant 80-90% for the hardcore crowd, and the tiers were basically splitting the pool of Y mobs (repops) down the middle. So 80-90% of pool X, and half of pool Y for the hardcores, and half of pool Y for the casuals.

I think that's a pretty close representation of how the math plays out

[Pheer]

if the math is the only thing holding us back on this whole situation then I think we all know who needs to be brought in


http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/data/1973/numb3rs1-show.jpg

[YendorLootmonkey]

You're confusing two different things, ya moran. BDA stands accused of being unnecessarily obstinate in the discussions, not of causing whatever problems before these negotiations.

Lets be fair here while you're busy spinning this against BDA...

Here is the proposal that seven (including BDA) out of the nine guilds threw their support behind:

www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133458

Who was being unnecessarily obstinate in that thread? To the point of trolling Rogean into locking the thread for his own proposal?

[Hitpoint]

It became abundantly clear two days ago after the Sirken-announced ruleset that BDA was more concerned with taking from Tier1 than they were with providing for Tier2.

"We just got a sick deal, but why didn't you punish them more?!"

This.

I mean. There were multiple BDA posting exactly this after the new deal was announced. Didn't even try to hide it.

[Fael]

Rogeans plan was 50/50 for all but vp right?
So, t2 gets, per month, roughly 2 x ct, vs, inny, dolj, sev, tal, gore, fay, vox, nag, and 4x trak. So total of 24 mobs.

Under the plan we though we had, tier 2 gets basically the exact same amount. And they still get the opp to compete on FFA repop (guaranteed another 4 or 5), and also the ability to compete during second half of month.

Accordingly, why the heck are we upset about this ?
It's a win win.

I suspect it has most to do with the fact that they want tier 1 to get less more than they want to get more.

Dolic

[arsenalpow]

Rogeans plan was 50/50 for all but vp right?
So, t2 gets, per month, roughly 2 x ct, vs, inny, dolj, sev, tal, gore, fay, vox, nag, and 4x trak. So total of 24 mobs.

Under the plan we though we had, tier 2 gets basically the exact same amount. And they still get the opp to compete on FFA repop (guaranteed another 4 or 5), and also the ability to compete during second half of month.

Accordingly, why the heck are we upset about this ?
It's a win win.

I suspect it has most to do with the fact that they want tier 1 to get less more than they want to get more.

Dolic

because additional repops and reduced variance were always on the table, they weren't something special added by sirken to sweeten his plan. Any plan agreed upon would have had some semblance of repops/lesser variance so no matter what the pool of mobs would be increased

[Byrjun]

Accordingly, why the heck are we upset about this ?
It's a win win.

Question of the night. The plan we ended up getting was better than the one that BDA wanted, because it featured repops in addition to normal spawn, which was a mechanic we thought wouldn't be considered. Tier 2 didn't end up with less mobs, they potentially got more. 12 pages and I still haven't heard a reason why the repop plan was bad.

[Vandy]

There are 11 mobs outside of VP. 2 of them are level 52-restricted.

They pop on average 4 times a month.

That's 44 raid mobs per month. There are at least 6 tier 2 guilds, and 3 tier 1 guilds - that's being pretty stingy

That's 9 guilds that want to compete for 44 mobs a month. That's approximately 5 mobs per guild.

Do you think it's fair to you that you only get 5 mobs a month for your guild?

Oh, you don't? Well that's fine, but keep in mind that if you take another mob, then someone else only gets 4 mobs a month. How many mobs do you think you deserve? Is it 10 mobs a month? Well then another guild gets 0 mobs a month. Do 4 guilds want 10 mobs a month? Gratz 4 mobs total for the rest of the 5 guilds.

This is an unsolvable problem on an EMU server that's been stale for too long. My numbers may not be accurate (i don't raid here) but that's the actual reality of the situation. A LOT of people can kill the mobs. A LOT of people want mobs. There are a static number of mobs per month.

No one guild can be dominant without severely cutting off access to those mobs to the rest.
No coalition of guilds can exist without everyone getting a very very thin slice of pie.

The solution is more mobs, or people being content with less.

Staff / Development are going to have to solve this problem with a coded solution. We are all arguing with each other to no great effect because the numbers behind all these solutions just don't add up.

You can put tiers on stuff, you can put restrictions on who and what can engage and in what time period, but the end result is straight up numbers.

44 Mobs a month

[Hitpoint]

because additional repops and reduced variance were always on the table, they weren't something special added by sirken to sweeten his plan. Any plan agreed upon would have had some semblance of repops/lesser variance so no matter what the pool of mobs would be increased

You were not offered repops that T1 wasn't allowed to touch at all. If you think t2 would have gotten a guaranteed 8 T1 spawns a month on FFA repops you're crazy. Not to mention 3-4 repops were not on the table either, 2 were.

[Babayaaga]

Completely agree.

When competition is thrown out, everyone has a different opinion on how the raid scene should be managed. The better your guild is, the more competition it will want. The worse your guild is, the more instance/rotated that your guild will want. Everyone else falls somewhere in between.

This post illustrates the problem perfectly.

There is this belief system associated with what determines a guild to be "worthy" of having access to content. It is the deeds that truly grant this access which are up for debate.

Example:

Contested Mob Spawns. 3 guilds know immediately through their own respective means.

Guild 1 sends out messages to guildmates who begin camping in an Alt army.

Guild 2 sends out messages to guildmates who begin deploying immediately to the scene.

Guild 3 sends out messages to guildmates, some of whom have Alts camped at the spawn point while others begin deploying to the scene.

*** 4 minutes pass ***

All three forces are buffed and rush to engage the mob. Guild 1 engages the contested boss mob with DA and begins to kite it around.

Guild 2 gathers other local mobs (of substantial firepower) and kites them to Guild 1's engage point training the entire force, killing 75% of their raid force, as well as the puller kiter.

Guild 3 picks up the Contested Mob and pulls it to their camp, gets boss down to 20% when suddenly a massive train is dumped on their raid force by Guild 1's puller.

Guild 2 sweeps in and finishes the kill and loots the spoils.

*** The End of Anecdote ***

This is what the contested raid scene was like before 3 weeks ago. This situation is an example of what nearly every contested raid went like when multiple guilds tried to go after the same target. These events would unfold in less than 10 minutes.

The people who are calling this situation "fair", are generally the same people who would pull some of the dirtier tactics. Competition is one thing, but this is another. I always thought Xegony was the Ghetto of all cess-pool servers on classic but P99 really takes the cake when it comes to how very low some people would stoop to make sure they got pixels instead of someone else, particularly ones they didn't "need".

Being "the best" means something different to each person playing here. To some, it means doing whatever it takes to screw someone else over so they have more. To others, it means being known for being an all around good guy who cares about the overall health of the community.

[Aaron]

Question of the night. The plan we ended up getting was better than the one that BDA wanted, because it featured repops in addition to normal spawn, which was a mechanic we thought wouldn't be considered. Tier 2 didn't end up with less mobs, they potentially got more. 12 pages and I still haven't heard a reason why the repop plan was bad.

I suspect the staff is having a heart-to-heart right now and will let us know what happened once they talk. Just my guess.

[YendorLootmonkey]

It became abundantly clear two days ago after the Sirken-announced ruleset that BDA was more concerned with taking from Tier1 than they were with providing for Tier2.

"We just got a sick deal, but why didn't you punish them more?!"

Oh, watch, I can do it too... I'll even add post links!

Just as it became abundantly clear two days ago after the Sirken-announced ruleset that TMO/FE was more concerned with raid loot coming into the game at a faster rate via 3-4 repops a month, de-valuing the items they might be selling for various reasons and by various methods...

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1258962&postcount=25

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259257&postcount=108

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259397&postcount=120

Spin works both ways.

[arsenalpow]

You were not offered repops that T1 wasn't allowed to touch at all. If you think t2 would have gotten a guaranteed 8 T1 spawns a month on FFA repops you're crazy. Not to mention 3-4 repops were not on the table either, 2 were.

let me repeat myself

part of the rogean plan ensured that targets retained their tier assignment through repops. So all of the normal mobs that spawn, plus all of the new mobs coming from repops, and they'd still get split down the middle. More mobs overall and a fair split for everyone.

[Hitpoint]

let me repeat myself

part of the rogean plan ensured that targets retained their tier assignment through repops. So all of the normal mobs that spawn, plus all of the new mobs coming from repops, and they'd still get split down the middle. More mobs overall and a fair split for everyone.

Except t1 said no to that. So why are we still talking about it? There are like 10 other plans that were rejected, that we don't discuss anymore. Add that piece of shit plan to the list please.

[Obrae]

Rogeans plan was 50/50 for all but vp right?
So, t2 gets, per month, roughly 2 x ct, vs, inny, dolj, sev, tal, gore, fay, vox, nag, and 4x trak. So total of 24 mobs.

Under the plan we though we had, tier 2 gets basically the exact same amount. And they still get the opp to compete on FFA repop (guaranteed another 4 or 5), and also the ability to compete during second half of month.

Accordingly, why the heck are we upset about this ?
It's a win win.

I suspect it has most to do with the fact that they want tier 1 to get less more than they want to get more.

Dolic

What they really wanted was mobs to be up WHEN they have people on and decide they feel like raiding instead of farming for plat. They never wanted to have to compete even against themselves. Fact is with 24 mobs a month i wouldnt be surprised to see many of these go FFA because no one gathers to kill. Raiders have migrated to raiding guilds long ago.

Its easy to shout and be loud about injustice but i doubt they really want to go raid a mob after it pops. They act like they are forced to step aside but the reality is they don't even show up.

[Hitpoint]

Oh, watch, I can do it too... I'll even add post links!

Just as it became abundantly clear two days ago after the Sirken-announced ruleset that TMO/FE was more concerned with raid loot coming into the game at a faster rate via 3-4 repops a month, de-valuing the items they might be selling for various reasons and by various methods...

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1258962&postcount=25

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259257&postcount=108

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259397&postcount=120

Spin works both ways.

I wish we'd stop getting lumped in this imaginary T1 group who sells epic MQs. I bet our guild bank has less money than most players on this server. We barely sell anything. Peridots and raid materials are mostly covered by individual members.

[arsenalpow]

Except t1 said no to that. So why are we still talking about it? There are like 10 other plans that were rejected, that we don't discuss anymore. Add that piece of shit plan to the list please.

right, and there's all kinds of stuff that t2 rejected as well

[Splorf22]

Chest, seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you? Under this arrangement we have about 150% as many mobs as before . . . and after we all get a little practice dealing with the repops, I think the casual guilds will get half of them easily. Let's do a little math shall we:

2 repops for casual guilds, score 100%
2 FFA repops, score 50% for the casual guilds
2 repops worth of variance spawns, score 0 for the casual guilds


That's a net 50% score easily, and tbh I think with more practice and some good organization we'd score more than 50% as a group even on FFA repops.

The only thing I don't like about Sirken's proposal is how VP is locked out. I don't think anyone should be forced to dive in the sewage known as 'competition' on this server just to see the end of the game. But other than that its simply fantastic.

[arsenalpow]

Chest, seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you? Under this arrangement we have about 150% as many mobs as before . . . and after we all get a little practice dealing with the repops, I think the casual guilds will get half of them easily. Let's do a little math shall we:

2 repops for casual guilds, score 100%
2 FFA repops, score 50% for the casual guilds
2 repops worth of variance spawns, score 0 for the casual guilds


That's a net 50% score easily, and tbh I think with more practice and some good organization we'd score more than 50% as a group even on FFA repops.

The only thing I don't like about Sirken's proposal is how VP is locked out. I don't think anyone should be forced to dive in the sewage known as 'competition' on this server just to see the end of the game. But other than that its simply fantastic.

come to bda vent and i'll math you bro

[Unidus]

This post illustrates the problem perfectly.

There is this belief system associated with what determines a guild to be "worthy" of having access to content. It is the deeds that truly grant this access which are up for debate.

Example:

Contested Mob Spawns. 3 guilds know immediately through their own respective means.

Guild 1 sends out messages to guildmates who begin camping in an Alt army.

Guild 2 sends out messages to guildmates who begin deploying immediately to the scene.

Guild 3 sends out messages to guildmates, some of whom have Alts camped at the spawn point while others begin deploying to the scene.

*** 4 minutes pass ***

All three forces are buffed and rush to engage the mob. Guild 1 engages the contested boss mob with DA and begins to kite it around.

Guild 2 gathers other local mobs (of substantial firepower) and kites them to Guild 1's engage point training the entire force, killing 75% of their raid force, as well as the puller kiter.

Guild 3 picks up the Contested Mob and pulls it to their camp, gets boss down to 20% when suddenly a massive train is dumped on their raid force by Guild 1's puller.

Guild 2 sweeps in and finishes the kill and loots the spoils.

*** The End of Anecdote ***

This is what the contested raid scene was like before 3 weeks ago. This situation is an example of what nearly every contested raid went like when multiple guilds tried to go after the same target. These events would unfold in less than 10 minutes.

The people who are calling this situation "fair", are generally the same people who would pull some of the dirtier tactics. Competition is one thing, but this is another. I always thought Xegony was the Ghetto of all cess-pool servers on classic but P99 really takes the cake when it comes to how very low some people would stoop to make sure they got pixels instead of someone else, particularly ones they didn't "need".

Being "the best" means something different to each person playing here. To some, it means doing whatever it takes to screw someone else over so they have more. To others, it means being known for being an all around good guy who cares about the overall health of the community.

If that was how it was then the staff needs to man up and ban/disband all 3 guilds. That's how it was on my server and most other live servers. Most of these guilds and players would be banned on live.

[Hitpoint]

right, and there's all kinds of stuff that t2 rejected as well

And they aren't discussed seriously anymore. FE original plan is gone, so are sloan's plans, so is Sirken and Derubael's plans. Rogean was the worst one that was ever proposed for T1. As soon as it was posted we had a forum post on our boards basically agreeing that it was one of the worst one's we've seen. In guild chat it was pretty unanimous. As far as I can tell, Rogean's plan is still being discussed because it's posted in a section where you can't see the overwhelming disgust for it. Only designated officers can post there, and they are trying to maintain composure.

[Autotune]

Don't worry guys, I'm leveling again. I'll be 60 sometime this month and then you can raid again.

[Joroz]

all your math is going to be off... sirken's plan has a huge flaw... steady stream of repops which probably wasn't entirely agreed on.

[citizen1080]

My brain hurts

[Hitpoint]

all your math is going to be off... sirken's plan has a huge flaw... steady stream of repops which probably wasn't entirely agreed on.

Why wouldn't it be agreed on though? Repops that T1 can't engage are even better for T2 than variance mobs which are t2 only. They don't have to track, don't have to sock, don't have to park, don't have to compete. They will have warning of when the repops are going to happen, and they can do a rotation if they want to. Isn't this every single thing they wanted? Even getting guaranteed 8 T1 mobs. I cannot understand why this isn't the best deal which has ever been proposed for them.

[Joroz]

Why wouldn't it be agreed on though? Repops that T1 can't engage are even better for T2 than variance mobs which are t2 only. They don't have to track, don't have to sock, don't have to park, don't have to compete. They will have warning of when the repops are going to happen, and they can do a rotation if they want to. Isn't this every single thing they wanted? Even getting guaranteed 8 T1 mobs. I cannot understand why this isn't the best deal which has ever been proposed for them.

I didn't say by players, you just assumed that.

[Hitpoint]

I didn't say by players, you just assumed that.

I'm pretty sure Rogean said a few days ago that 3-4 repops a month was a viable option.

[Nune]

Oh, watch, I can do it too... I'll even add post links!

Just as it became abundantly clear two days ago after the Sirken-announced ruleset that TMO/FE was more concerned with raid loot coming into the game at a faster rate via 3-4 repops a month, de-valuing the items they might be selling for various reasons and by various methods...

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1258962&postcount=25

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259257&postcount=108

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259397&postcount=120

Spin works both ways.

This dude is Harvard Law Forum lawyering Jeremy's Community College Paralegal degree attempts at spin campaigning.

[jijii]

come to bda vent and i'll math you bro

can you please math us right here, bro?

[Razdeline]

There are 11 mobs outside of VP. 2 of them are level 52-restricted.

They pop on average 4 times a month.

That's 44 raid mobs per month. There are at least 6 tier 2 guilds, and 3 tier 1 guilds - that's being pretty stingy

That's 9 guilds that want to compete for 44 mobs a month. That's approximately 5 mobs per guild.

Do you think it's fair to you that you only get 5 mobs a month for your guild?

Oh, you don't? Well that's fine, but keep in mind that if you take another mob, then someone else only gets 4 mobs a month. How many mobs do you think you deserve? Is it 10 mobs a month? Well then another guild gets 0 mobs a month. Do 4 guilds want 10 mobs a month? Gratz 4 mobs total for the rest of the 5 guilds.

This is an unsolvable problem on an EMU server that's been stale for too long. My numbers may not be accurate (i don't raid here) but that's the actual reality of the situation. A LOT of people can kill the mobs. A LOT of people want mobs. There are a static number of mobs per month.

No one guild can be dominant without severely cutting off access to those mobs to the rest.
No coalition of guilds can exist without everyone getting a very very thin slice of pie.

The solution is more mobs, or people being content with less.

Staff / Development are going to have to solve this problem with a coded solution. We are all arguing with each other to no great effect because the numbers behind all these solutions just don't add up.

You can put tiers on stuff, you can put restrictions on who and what can engage and in what time period, but the end result is straight up numbers.

44 Mobs a month

[arsenalpow]

can you please math us right here, bro?

i just did in a post above, i just expanded on it for loraen in vent, he still disagrees in principle though because he hates math and/or numbers

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/dead-or-alive-5/7/7c/Hates_Numbers.jpg

[Jarnauga]

http://2.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com/12/75/d6b817eaaeb0dbaa72a2924e7fc76a31.jpg

[Nune]

What they really wanted was mobs to be up WHEN they have people on and decide they feel like raiding instead of farming for plat. They never wanted to have to compete even against themselves. Fact is with 24 mobs a month i wouldnt be surprised to see many of these go FFA because no one gathers to kill. Raiders have migrated to raiding guilds long ago.

Its easy to shout and be loud about injustice but i doubt they really want to go raid a mob after it pops. They act like they are forced to step aside but the reality is they don't even show up.

If that were true, I know of 3 "T2" guilds that would be cleaning house on 32k mobs sitting around, available to be raided, and unclaimed. Our guilds grown so much in a month that we pretty much have a raid force on at all times at 5pm+ PST. So if you're working on Nihilium's raid schedule, then ya at 7am there might be some dragons sitting around since most of us are AT WORK (looking at the guild you're in on your sig I feel like I have to note this). Anywhere near a prime time for EST/PST and we'd me smashing shit in. But, look where blind assumptions and entitlement have gotten you now, the #1 guild now just a fractional inclusion in a tier'd raiding system. You never know what you had until it's gone, ya feel?

[Frieza_Prexus]

Oh, watch, I can do it too... I'll even add post links!

Just as it became abundantly clear two days ago after the Sirken-announced ruleset that TMO/FE was more concerned with raid loot coming into the game at a faster rate via 3-4 repops a month, de-valuing the items they might be selling for various reasons and by various methods...

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1258962&postcount=25

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259257&postcount=108

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259397&postcount=120

Spin works both ways.

I cannot account for Clark or Korrath, but my post was simply pointing out that the economy should be a consideration here. It falls far short of being spin for some kind of sour grapes. You'll note that several posts later I concluded that the plan was extremely worthwhile.

[Rhambuk]

http://2.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com/12/75/d6b817eaaeb0dbaa72a2924e7fc76a31.jpg

Greatest thing ever.

speaking of math, which I hate more than anything, has anyone heard of the divine number? phi? some friends were trying to explain it to me as this intense discovery but its just some mathematical BS.

[Razdeline]

The simple word solution to the problem is=

No one will ever get what they want. When BDA wants more, others will suffer. When BDA wants less(which clearly hasn't been conveyed at all), other guilds get more.

As Sirken has stated 1097978 times, no one will like any given solution, just pick something that is fair for everyone. Agree to the raid rules the staff put together yesterday, and build onto it through discussion. Not that hard.

[BillyCranston]

They approve of FFA competition.

It's great that the only thing the devs approve of doesn't work at ALL for this server, or any emulated classic EQ.

[Obrae]

If that were true, I know of 3 "T2" guilds that would be cleaning house on 32k mobs sitting around, available to be raided, and unclaimed. Our guilds grown so much in a month that we pretty much have a raid force on at all times at 5pm+ PST. So if you're working on Nihilium's raid schedule, then ya at 7am there might be some dragons sitting around since most of us are AT WORK (looking at the guild you're in on your sig I feel like I have to note this). Anywhere near a prime time for EST/PST and we'd me smashing shit in. But, look where blind assumptions and entitlement have gotten you now, the #1 guild now just a fractional inclusion in a tier'd raiding system. You never know what you had until it's gone, ya feel?

I don't raid, i chat and rez people.

I don't make the rules on this server and i will certainly not freak out of one of its staff goes into a frenzy fro whatever reason. They are bias and influenced by many factors and i am not gonna try to understand them. Nor be naive and beleive no money comes out of this whole "free" server business. I am just glad they had the ability to make this place work.

But what i said is true and i see dragons staying up all the time if TMO or FE don't go after them. havent been on lately but i guess it's the same with IB getting involved more.

[khanable]

Greatest thing ever.

speaking of math, which I hate more than anything, has anyone heard of the divine number? phi? some friends were trying to explain it to me as this intense discovery but its just some mathematical BS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

[Uteunayr]

The simple word solution to the problem is=

No one will ever get what they want. When BDA wants more, others will suffer. When BDA wants less(which clearly hasn't been conveyed at all), other guilds get more.

As Sirken has stated 1097978 times, no one will like any given solution, just pick something that is fair for everyone. Agree to the raid rules the staff put together yesterday, and build onto it through discussion. Not that hard.

BDA has shown a willingness to cooperate and share benefits, not to monopolize them. So, BDA wants more for the casuals so that a fair system is instituted, and the hardcores suffer in that they only get 3 mobs a day to compete over all month.

And they aren't discussed seriously anymore. FE original plan is gone, so are sloan's plans, so is Sirken and Derubael's plans. Rogean was the worst one that was ever proposed for T1. As soon as it was posted we had a forum post on our boards basically agreeing that it was one of the worst one's we've seen. In guild chat it was pretty unanimous. As far as I can tell, Rogean's plan is still being discussed because it's posted in a section where you can't see the overwhelming disgust for it. Only designated officers can post there, and they are trying to maintain composure.

The Staff plan originally was bad only to the extent that T1 had to split their mobs, and them compete over their half of the pie (excluding VP, which is another third of the pie).

The Adjusted Staff plan that was posted here by Chest after a conversation between a number of people including Autotune, Chest, myself, and others in another thread the night before the crash, is that the epic mobs (which were the central nasty feature for the T1 guilds) would have a 33% split, going Tier 1 -> Tier 2 -> FFA. This allows for Tier 2 players to compete with Tier 1 players once every 3 weeks, and if they choose not to compete, they will accept getting 1 per 3 weeks, while Tier 1 gets 2 per 3 weeks on the epic mobs.

The central feature, and the reason why an adjusted plan was proposed to offer a compromise to the Tier 1 guilds is that this allows for (which no other plan to date that has been proposed has allowed for) casuals to play casuals all month long, and for hardcores to play hardcore all month long. This means that hardcores never have to deal with petty rotations, dealing with BDA/Taken/Divinity/every other more casual guild, and that the reverse is true. It lets each play in the atmosphere that is classic to them. And if they want to get a greater share of epic mobs, while maintaining an even split of the regular raid mobs, and having access to VP, then they would go into it knowingly accepting that they will be playing in a hardcore style.

[Joroz]

I don't raid, i chat and rez people.

I don't make the rules on this server and i will certainly not freak out of one of its staff goes into a frenzy fro whatever reason. They are bias and influenced by many factors and i am not gonna try to understand them. Nor be naive and beleive no money comes out of this whole "free" server business. I am just glad they had the ability to make this place work.

But what i said is true and i see dragons staying up all the time if TMO or FE don't go after them. havent been on lately but i guess it's the same with IB getting involved more.

There is no shortage of people that will go after mobs.... just a shortage of those that think a mob needs to die within 2 minutes of its spawn time and will do anything to make that happen. And that small % of the server wants 100% of the targets.

[Rhambuk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

http://www.goldennumber.net/life-design/

has photo applications to peoples faces/human body/dolphins/seashells

its just a universally applicable ratio

[Nune]

I don't raid, i chat and rez people.

I don't make the rules on this server and i will certainly not freak out of one of its staff goes into a frenzy fro whatever reason. They are bias and influenced by many factors and i am not gonna try to understand them. Nor be naive and beleive no money comes out of this whole "free" server business. I am just glad they had the ability to make this place work.

But what i said is true and i see dragons staying up all the time if TMO or FE don't go after them. havent been on lately but i guess it's the same with IB getting involved more.

Well, we certainly know where money came out at some point (YOUR GUILD?). The amount of bullshit the staff endures is probably 1000x what they "make" in donations. (You realize power, and keeping servers up, things of that nature arent free right? There are these things called bills, and away from the elf simulator it requires green paper things to pay for these. Elf simulator fans call these donations)

I like some of your guild, but your post is just in the nature of why your tag is despised these days. Assuming things are the same because YOU havent been on lately to see if they actually are or not, when 30 seconds of reading threads would indicate the past 2 weeks have been a substantial change in the raid scene. Oddly enough, those 2 weeks were absent of a certain guild. You guys are so immersed you act like a dragon being up for 15 minutes is some sort of treachery lmao. Ohhh naaaooo one less Trak BP to auction in EC to add to the stockpile of shit you'll never even go through by the time Velious is out and the said gear becomes trivial. My guild hasnt been raid capable until very recently, and the reason those dragons were up, was because most of the "T2" guilds dont park alts at every raid / have human beings slaving away at stareatwallquest so they can pop a dragon the SECOND it spawns. People just gave up, and the ones who didn't became a problem. I know where my kin stand in that statement, where do yours?

[chickmagnet]

You guys can whine all you want about what is fair and do calculations and even petition to GMs over the easiest/fairest way to do things.....but simply, this is how its going to turn out....so take notes....44 mobs? 9+ guilds want a piece? WRONG! u got 5 whiny guilds who don't do anything to try to get them, there are usually 4-5 trackers at a target's window at any given time, what do you know, those are usually the 4-5 guilds who actually get the kill....its surprising isn't it? they rotated and put in the time, and got the kill...I applaud guilds like Taken for camping out at Innoruuk to get kill, kudos to them...that's a whole guild effort to snag and monopolize a mob, unfortunately if camp out policy proceeds, will put u guys back to Ragefire...

[Arteker]

Well, we certainly know where money came out at some point (YOUR GUILD?). The amount of bullshit the staff endures is probably 1000x what they "make" in donations. (You realize power, and keeping servers up, things of that nature arent free right? There are these things called bills, and away from the elf simulator it requires green paper things to pay for these. Elf simulator fans call these donations)

I like some of your guild, but your post is just in the nature of why your tag is despised these days. Assuming things are the same because YOU havent been on lately to see if they actually are or not, when 30 seconds of reading threads would indicate the past 2 weeks have been a substantial change in the raid scene. Oddly enough, those 2 weeks were absent of a certain guild. You guys are so immersed you act like a dragon being up for 15 minutes is some sort of treachery lmao. Ohhh naaaooo one less Trak BP to auction in EC to add to the stockpile of shit you'll never even go through by the time Velious is out and the said gear becomes trivial. My guild hasnt been raid capable until very recently, and the reason those dragons were up, was because most of the "T2" guilds dont park alts at every raid / have human beings slaving away at stareatwallquest so they can pop a dragon the SECOND it spawns. People just gave up, and the ones who didn't became a problem. I know where my kin stand in that statement, where do yours?

in slaying dragons?:)

[Nune]

Well, we certainly know where money came out at some point (YOUR GUILD?). The amount of bullshit the staff endures is probably 1000x what they "make" in donations. (You realize power, and keeping servers up, things of that nature arent free right? There are these things called bills, and away from the elf simulator it requires green paper things to pay for these. Elf simulator fans call these donations)

I like some of your guild, but your post is just in the nature of why your tag is despised these days. Assuming things are the same because YOU havent been on lately to see if they actually are or not, when 30 seconds of reading threads would indicate the past 2 weeks have been a substantial change in the raid scene. Oddly enough, those 2 weeks were absent of a certain guild. You guys are so immersed you act like a dragon being up for 15 minutes is some sort of treachery lmao. Ohhh naaaooo one less Trak BP to auction in EC to add to the stockpile of shit you'll never even go through by the time Velious is out and the said gear becomes trivial. My guild hasnt been raid capable until very recently, and the reason those dragons were up, was because most of the "T2" guilds dont park alts at every raid / have human beings slaving away at stareatwallquest so they can pop a dragon the SECOND it spawns. People just gave up, and the ones who didn't became a problem. I know where my kin stand in that statement, where do yours?

http://0.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/71/59/5af32d4f191a61d96991690dfeacad22-dropmic2.gif

[Nune]

You guys can whine all you want about what is fair and do calculations and even petition to GMs over the easiest/fairest way to do things.....but simply, this is how its going to turn out....so take notes....44 mobs? 9+ guilds want a piece? WRONG! u got 5 whiny guilds who don't do anything to try to get them, there are usually 4-5 trackers at a target's window at any given time, what do you know, those are usually the 4-5 guilds who actually get the kill....its surprising isn't it? they rotated and put in the time, and got the kill...I applaud guilds like Taken for camping out at Innoruuk to get kill, kudos to them...that's a whole guild effort to snag and monopolize a mob, unfortunately if camp out policy proceeds, will put u guys back to Ragefire...

you left out the part where angry nerds then train raids etc etc. Because this whole situation wasn't brought on by toxic, lifeless players trying to "monopolize" mobs they dont need. It was brought on by "a lack of effort"

Effort, being used in relation to a video game. Lol, the world must be scary where the bright sky thing shines and metal wheel box inventions zoom by

[chickmagnet]

im sorry, I must have forgot that part! which example do you have of them training sir?

[arsenalpow]

im sorry, I must have forgot that part! which example do you have of them training sir?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr7MZr9bnuk

just fazlazen, TMO officer

[chickmagnet]

the only 2 big zones other than vp that training may have occurred is fear and hate, and thats simply part of the pull, you have these other guilds trying to slip by while they have a train in progress to make a break for mob then they run into that said train

[Nune]

im sorry, I must have forgot that part! which example do you have of them training sir?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44fy2XUoNhI
that took 10 seconds on youtube.

Can I at least deal with a decent troll? This is boring

(lol, "Daunt teh tem in aut of charactah we haff fraps of dis) i wish i had a sweet accent

[chickmagnet]

well first off its bda and secondly, its lord nagafen, aren't u guys vp key'd why are u in sol b? save it for the n00bs

[arsenalpow]

well first off its bda and secondly, its lord nagafen, aren't u guys vp key'd why are u in sol b? save it for the n00bs

ragefire, but same diff

[Nune]

the only 2 big zones other than vp that training may have occurred is fear and hate, and thats simply part of the pull, you have these other guilds trying to slip by while they have a train in progress to make a break for mob then they run into that said train

Are you still posting? you just got buried bro. Grats on being an anon troll and being terrible.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkb7b1kg8R1qjwz5yo1_500.gif

[chickmagnet]

I stand corrected, seems you need to contact their public relations department, congrats on getting Ragefire from Taken, audio was great

[chickmagnet]

yea, im still posting, I just leveled up to a skeleton, was sick of being a bat

[Rhambuk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr7MZr9bnuk

just fazlazen, TMO officer

ha I remember when that first came out, classy. real classy

[Obrae]

Well, we certainly know where money came out at some point (YOUR GUILD?). The amount of bullshit the staff endures is probably 1000x what they "make" in donations. (You realize power, and keeping servers up, things of that nature arent free right? There are these things called bills, and away from the elf simulator it requires green paper things to pay for these. Elf simulator fans call these donations)

I like some of your guild, but your post is just in the nature of why your tag is despised these days. Assuming things are the same because YOU havent been on lately to see if they actually are or not, when 30 seconds of reading threads would indicate the past 2 weeks have been a substantial change in the raid scene. Oddly enough, those 2 weeks were absent of a certain guild. You guys are so immersed you act like a dragon being up for 15 minutes is some sort of treachery lmao. Ohhh naaaooo one less Trak BP to auction in EC to add to the stockpile of shit you'll never even go through by the time Velious is out and the said gear becomes trivial. My guild hasnt been raid capable until very recently, and the reason those dragons were up, was because most of the "T2" guilds dont park alts at every raid / have human beings slaving away at stareatwallquest so they can pop a dragon the SECOND it spawns. People just gave up, and the ones who didn't became a problem. I know where my kin stand in that statement, where do yours?

Like i said previously.
Wipe the server and restart it with the shitty items (manastones, etc) out from start and account trading illegal from start. It will cleanse the server of all fraudulous money (for awhile) previous abuse, cheats etc. No one will have 10-20 level 60 to gear up and park and it will be a very fun experience again.

Fix the raids for awhile, lets a new community order be born.

It's all pixels anyway who cares if we restart from scratch. Those who will care the most are the ones who paid real money for their pixels and thats makes it an even better solution.

[Joroz]

They should just disable all the raid content for the next 6 month's and let everything cool down. No more raid CSR stuff to worry about, no more agreement mediations, and we already know they don't and shouldn't care about the player's fun level. This server has been more popular than even during the suspension.

[Fael]

you left out the part where angry nerds then train raids etc etc. Because this whole situation wasn't brought on by toxic, lifeless players trying to "monopolize" mobs they dont need. It was brought on by "a lack of effort"


Besides faz's long history of getting banned for ragefire related shinanigans, of which you were not present, what other first hand situations have you had with the "toxic, lifeless, monopolizing mobs they don't need" T1 raiders?

I only ask this because I've never seen you or your guild involved in the raid scene. This doesn't disqualify you from commenting or stating your opinions. However, you do so with a vehemence that suggests first hand knowledge, where it seems there isn't any to warrant your hate.

At least Chest has been around the block (much longer than me). His attitude can be explained (consistent lack of success :) ).

Dolic

[Buriedpast]

Like i said previously.
Wipe the server and restart it with the shitty items (manastones, etc) out from start and account trading illegal from start. It will cleanse the server of all fraudulous money (for awhile) previous abuse, cheats etc. No one will have 10-20 level 60 to gear up and park and it will be a very fun experience again.

Fix the raids for awhile, lets a new community order be born.

It's all pixels anyway who cares if we restart from scratch. Those who will care the most are the ones who paid real money for their pixels and thats makes it an even better solution.

Not wipe. Just new server ike that

Current timeline, as in right now. No OP crap. Server might only see 5 donals before velious

[chickmagnet]

ive got an idea, how about sirken's rules but with no respawns, I think his rules would help fix the server, I just don't believe in handing out mobs....work for what u get

[Picks]

just wipe the server and start over with kunark in place...

[Obrae]

Not wipe. Just new server ike that

Current timeline, as in right now. No OP crap. Server might only see 5 donals before velious

I would migrate there and start anew.
Indeed no need to emulate the timeline. Start from scratch and go to velious once its ready. So no stalling there.

[chickmagnet]

u really think wiping the server will help? ill have a team in place, help pl a group to 57, hold down chardok....guild only and while all of u guys are still in blackburrow, my guild will be holding down the server with no competition until velious opens up....good luck

[Byrjun]

ive got an idea, how about sirken's rules but with no respawns, I think his rules would help fix the server, I just don't believe in handing out mobs....work for what u get

That doesn't fix anything. That just means that Tier 1 guilds can't touch half of the raid content each month, losing 50% of mobs (Tier 1 doesn't like it), and Tier 2 still has to compete with other Tier 2 guilds (Tier 2 doesn't like it).

[chickmagnet]

woah! I said no respawns, that was part of losing mob cycles....just the rules....

Side Rules:
anyone caught intentionally training at raids eats a perma ban, and their guild eats a four week raid suspension.

we strongly encourage guilds to work out their own disputes before contacting the CSR staff, as you will probably not like our rulings.

respect FTE messages, anyone that ignores FTE and Kill Steals a mob will earn their guild a four week raid suspension.

No guild will have more than two representatives present at any raid mob at any time.

Players will not be allowed to camp out at raid mobs ahead of time to encourage actually racing for targets.

Consider greatly reducing variance if the poopsocking can be curbed by the above rules.

No DA Stalling, period.

A Guild will be considered a Teir 1 Guild by the staff, as soon as it starts competing for dragons within Veeshan's Peak.
__________________

[chickmagnet]

yea, sorry tier 2....its time for you guys to crawl out the sandbox and compete....1500 people on server....you don't need things handed to you, switch to a dkp system and im sure u will get the trackers and more people willing to raid

[Nlaar]

yea, sorry tier 2....its time for you guys to crawl out the sandbox and compete....1500 people on server....you don't need things handed to you, switch to a dkp system and im sure u will get the trackers and more people willing to raid

"Welcome new player to P99, once you hit 46+ and want to raid and see content, under the current system you will have to sit near your computer and "track" for hours at end for a POTENTIAL attempt at a dragon."

Yeah, that'll bring them in droves. You call that competition? I call that an unhealthy lifestyle.

[Frieza_Prexus]

yea, sorry tier 2....its time for you guys to crawl out the sandbox and compete....1500 people on server....you don't need things handed to you, switch to a dkp system and im sure u will get the trackers and more people willing to raid

The flaw in this thinking is that one of the server's stated purposes is to let people experience content that was otherwise unavailable to them. Casuals have a reasonable expectation to meaningfully participate in endgame content on a reasonable basis.

The standard by which loot is earned is killing the mob. That's it; nothing is being handed out or going unearned. One person working harder for their kills does nothing to lessen the objective value of another person's kills. FTE competition is desirable and fun for many people, but don't move the goal posts by holding others up to the heightened standard you might establish for yourself.

[Alarti0001]

The flaw in this thinking is that one of the server's stated purposes is to let people experience content that was otherwise unavailable to them. Casuals have a reasonable expectation to meaningfully participate in endgame content on a reasonable basis.

.

Where is that stated?

[Joroz]

The flaw in this thinking is that one of the server's stated purposes is to let people experience content that was otherwise unavailable to them. Casuals have a reasonable expectation to meaningfully participate in endgame content on a reasonable basis.

The standard by which loot is earned is killing the mob. That's it; nothing is being handed out or going unearned. One person working harder for their kills does nothing to lessen the objective value of another person's kills. FTE competition is desirable and fun for many people, but don't move the goal posts by holding others up to the heightened standard you might establish for yourself.

looks like they are still trying to figure out whose "reasonable basis" is best for the server.

[chickmagnet]

not necessarily, u could actually raid those zones when they are in window or be using the time while your trying to validate your point with a window up watching for spawn....u guys have over a 100 members....168 hours in a week...that's less than 2 hours a week each of you would have to track for a mob...if that doesn't work, disband your guild and join 1 that has a little motivation behind it and see more content

[Fuddwin]

TL;DR

Poor BDA (Variety)

[chickmagnet]

there are plenty of other emu servers they can experience the same content, if I was in a casual raiding guild and didn't want to compete, I wouldn't want end game items is all im saying, plenty of planar gear to go around, but because u take tier 1 guilds out, other guilds will step up to compete for those mobs....remove tmo, you have FE, remove them you still have IB with FE's loot, remove them, Taken and/or BDA will step up....always someone will step up to take up the slack to make this game constantly competitive

[Frieza_Prexus]

there are plenty of other emu servers they can experience the same content

Then it's just as fair to say that the raid guilds can go to other servers.

The point is that the developers have told us that the raid guilds go too far when they dominate content in perpetuity. Especially when their primary reason is to stifle the progression of others. (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1226924&postcount=1) I'm not saying that people shouldn't play hard; I am simply stating that it is unreasonable to categorically exclude all but the elite from getting any kills. It is equally unreasonable to call their loot unearned by holding others to artificially high standards for "earning loot" that the P99 hardcore have.

Classic EQ had hardcore guilds that would be laughably casual by P99's standards. Many guilds here fit the bill for what was once considered hardcore, and they experienced many kills in classic. They never dominated perhaps, but neither were they categorically excluded from all endgame content. A server that provides a Classic Experience (P99) certainly includes the notion that dragon kills will sometimes be earned by those who do not compete as fiercely as those at the top. Those kills will not be the bleeding edge of content (say, VP), but kills will still be had on a reasonable basis.

[Nyze]

I don't really care who is or isn't female as I don't solicit stupid romance over the internet, but I think it's pretty pathetic that most of Taken actually think "she" is some blonde chick.

No different then thinking your some neckbeard sloth glued to the screen. Oh wait, probably hitting a little to close to home.

[Arteker]

Then it's just as fair to say that the raid guilds can go to other servers. The point is that the developers have told us that the raid guilds go too far when they dominate content in perpetuity. Especially when their primary reason is to stifle the progression of others. (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1226924&postcount=1) I'm not saying that people shouldn't play hard; I am simply stating that it is unreasonable to hold others to artificially high standards for "earning loot."

Classic EQ had hardcore guilds that would be laughably casual by P99's standards. Many guilds here fit the bill for what was once considered hardcore, and they experienced many kills in classic. They never dominated perhaps, but neither were they categorically excluded from all endgame content. A server that provides a Classic Experience (P99) certainly includes the notion that dragon kills will sometimes be earned by those who do not compete as fiercely as those at the top. Those kills will not be the bleeding edge of content (say, VP), but kills will still be had on a reasonable basis.

Ukinda forgot casuals low levels players whined cried because they got excluded at first from zones like pov,bot, hoh.... in planes of power.

They won although they spend months crying because it was impossible for them finish the old trials and get flaged .

Albeit the xp nerf post it was seriusly a factor for the decline of the zones.and lets not taslk about expansions like oow at the very first.

[Frieza_Prexus]

The point is that the terms casual and hardcore are relative, but the level of effort invested has not changed from live to P99.

The average P99 hardcore would be among the most elite of EQ Live players in terms of dedication. The average hardcore on live would fall somewhere between tier 1 and 2 on P99. P99 casuals are generally at the same level of effort and activity as many of the hardcores of EQ live. For the amount of effort that many Tier 2 guilds on p99 spend, they would have achieved reasonably regular boss kills back on EQ Live. P99 strives to recreate the average classic experience (which is actually somewhat difficult given the differences between the various live servers). The resulting gestalt should, invariably, include a scenario wherein the casuals (BY P99 STANDARDS) see boss kills every now and then.

The amount of effort by Tier 2's here would result in some kills on live. Thus, a classic server will strive to enable that expectation on a reasonable basis. Categorical exclusion from most boss encounters is not classic.

[Joroz]

It's real hard to determine who is whining/crying more between hardcore raiders and casuals, someone should make a poll. My guess is hardcore raiders atm but it might weighted by a few people that have a lot more tears than the rest.

[chickmagnet]

what stops those casual guilds from raiding areas during the mobs window for a chance of spawn, beyond contrary belief every tmo/fe/ib do not have all their characters with epics....I see your standpoint, but these guilds aren't even trying, how often do you see them tracking, im not saying for entire spawn, at least to check if is up? the point of my argument is that im trying to encourage them to put forth the effort of making this a more competitive game.....if rotations were to be done, that would kill off tracking...people would join guilds with better reputations or where their friends are and guilds would get away with loot council on everything to gear up officers or friends before community, dkp shows merit and the value a member puts forth for their guild....and god forbid, A-Team would have their epics

[Arteker]

The point is that the terms casual and hardcore are relative, but the level of effort invested has not changed from live to P99.

The average P99 hardcore would be among the most elite of EQ Live players in terms of dedication. The average hardcore on live would fall somewhere between tier 1 and 2 on P99. P99 casuals are generally at the same level of effort and activity as many of the hardcores of EQ live. For the amount of effort that many Tier 2 guilds on p99 spend, they would have achieved reasonably regular boss kills back on EQ Live. P99 strives to recreate the average classic experience (which is actually somewhat difficult given the differences between the various live servers). The resulting gestalt should, invariably, include a scenario wherein the casuals (BY P99 STANDARDS) see boss kills every now and then.

The amount of effort by Tier 2's here would result in some kills on live. Thus, a classic server will strive to enable that expectation on a reasonable basis. Categorical exclusion from all boss encounters is not classic.

Different ages, its very easy to claim it now , try it back then with no strat leaks , no tricks, no ventrilo......

list can go to infinitum.

while i dont deny casuals should see boss up and ATTEMP() and i hope they win , i dont want anyone to wipe and have a cr imo i want to know what happen with the other side of the coin.


is the eternal conflictand one of the main reason gaming industry have turned into wow style . this server mechanics try to replicate the everquest we had back then but either we are the same persons , either its the same for everyone as every server in everquest was a different universe.



How u balance it? i got no fucking clue .last proposal tried to appeal both sides and it failed due to the boycott of a a side of the server.

at the very end its a Rogean decision , either he nail it and make everyone happy or he pick a side or just shut down the server in angry at the pure mess casuals and raider are doing .


We gotta realize one thing, at some point even if velious hit , population will get tired of the server, everyone will have alot of high lvl chars and other raid or not raid , but the server have the risk to be stagnant . as it happeend to eqmac.

[Joroz]

but these guilds aren't even trying

Did you see any mobs left up while tmo was suspended? A lot of guilds got into the action.

[chickmagnet]

nah, my 86 accounts were suspended....lol

[Frieza_Prexus]

so what he's saying here is that tier 2 guilds should not be excluded from participation in VP and therefore some sort of lockout or rotation system should take place there as well.

Don't twist my words for your own agenda.

[Ciroco]

Did you see any mobs left up while tmo was suspended? A lot of guilds got into the action.

He thinks T2 guilds don't use DKP; pretty sure he lives in a bubble.

[Ciroco]

Ukinda forgot casuals low levels players whined cried because they got excluded at first from zones like pov,bot, hoh.... in planes of power.

They won although they spend months crying because it was impossible for them finish the old trials and get flaged .

Flags weren't removed until PoP was no longer current, if I remember correctly. Regardless, people on Live whined because content was too hard. People here are whining because not enough content is available. I'm not sure it's an equal comparison.

[Arteker]

Did you see any mobs left up while tmo was suspended? A lot of guilds got into the action.

when there is no competition joroz , im the first to admit the hugue delay in velious have a impact in how the server developed.

i mean is very easy to blame , ib, tmo fe and bda in the end the truth this clusterfuck is due to lack of new things to people.


A prime example of this is my own guild tmo, at some point we lacked competition (wich started when tmo was FE and tmo was ib)and we turned into farm mode , people got bored and they levelñed alts, those alts of course are even more fun if they twink, so loot went to alts.
slowly guild decays but since remains realy uncontested guild get bloated(tmo never stoped to recruit, something hurted back in the IB).

Time pass and my guild only joy is competition if u look at the uncontested period pre FE tmo didint even half the strengh it had prior the froovy dupe and the following suspension.

suddenly FE rises and TMO is again in full road , good or bad the truth that kind of things keep the guild in motion.


whats the problem?FE suddenly have to deal and compete with alot of alts with good gear raid and motivated people , so its not like the TMO/IB first raid contest.


yes there is drama there is shit btw 2 guilds , im the first to admit i bashed people like tasslehoff and other FE members... list goes on.


but the thruth is suddenly we got cornered and when suspension was lifted fe ib tmo whre sittin at vp doors in a new scenario of competition, how it would have worked?.

i got no idea would have been fun to dicover once the 3 guild zoned into vp.


Now the drama is wich direction is the server rogean going to take . because there will be a fallout whatever rogean decision takes.

[chickmagnet]

I think Rogean as well as the other Devs encourage competition and would like to see more guilds competing, they just don't like to see the server being dominated, they hate the idea of rotation, because rotation isn't classic...every guild could log their main at a zone in while mob is in window and log on alt to play in meantime, I doubt they need to max lvl 60 out in groups...only takes 1 person to get FTE on mob, I don't care how VP decked out you are....prime example is nobles, every week, 100+ people ready to engage

[Joroz]

He thinks T2 guilds don't use DKP; pretty sure he lives in a bubble.

don't see the relevance of DKP to guilds showing plenty of effort when the raid scene isn't being dominated by questionable tactics.

[Ciroco]

Nor do I, but chickmagnet seems to think using DKP increases poopsock willingness.

[Arteker]

Flags weren't removed until PoP was no longer current, if I remember correctly. Regardless, people on Live whined because content was too hard. People here are whining because not enough content is available. I'm not sure it's an equal comparison.

Trials where seriusly gimped and later flags removed , ciroco , i remember when exe trial the executioner couldn be slowed and the % slow max was a new thing and made it way harder for people.

later u could bring even DC pets from outside to trial before it u couldnt .

omens first trials have mobs with the dps of a potime boss , u needed a perfect group for it.

the list goes for long .
thats why most modern gaming companys took the aproach to give everyone a easier game , and make profit , aka pay to win.

[Joroz]

so many people have a view on classic and almost all of them are different... p99 will always have some non classic rules to help all these different views feel classic.

[chickmagnet]

would u poopsock if u weren't paid for it?

[Arteker]

I think Rogean as well as the other Devs encourage competition and would like to see more guilds competing, they just don't like to see the server being dominated, they hate the idea of rotation, because rotation isn't classic...every guild could log their main at a zone in while mob is in window and log on alt to play in meantime, I doubt they need to max lvl 60 out in groups...only takes 1 person to get FTE on mob, I don't care how VP decked out you are....prime example is nobles, every week, 100+ people ready to engage

Rotations where classic in some servers and in some like stormhammer it was a GM enforced rotation with a Tier system.


yet that system was used and abused to cocblock guilds , in general there isnt any real solution.

Thats why in classic most GM in terms of raid would rather let the players fixt their troubles in game.

playing politics and with the media always been a risky factor , p99 isnt different .

[Ravager]

i mean is very easy to blame , ib, tmo fe and bda in the end the truth this clusterfuck is due to lack of new things to people.


Quite a bit of Kunark is new to many of the players on this server, though they don't even get the chance to get bored of it because of all the players that say it's stagnant and old, yet still play it all the damn time anyway.

If this content is so stale that the only way you can enjoy it is by making a competition out of it, why not play red and let other people enjoy what you're not having fun with?

[Unidus]

Rotations where classic in some servers and in some like stormhammer it was a GM enforced rotation with a Tier system.


yet that system was used and abused to cocblock guilds , in general there isnt any real solution.

Thats why in classic most GM in terms of raid would rather let the players fixt their troubles in game.

playing politics and with the media always been a risky factor , p99 isnt different .

Pretty much. All they need to do is add the 3-4 repops per month and any guild caught training/poopsocking/DA stalling or anything shady just ban whoever is training/Daing and disband the guild and suspend everyone from raiding for 2-4 weeks.

[chickmagnet]

guild mergers! make more tier 1 guilds!

[Ciroco]

would u poopsock if u weren't paid for it?

Nope. I wouldn't poopsock if I was paid for it either.

[Arteker]

so many people have a view on classic and almost all of them are different... p99 will always have some non classic rules to help all these different views feel classic.

urself nailed it , there is alot of people from different servers and types of guild , there is people here who actualy admit never made it past the 40s and never raided yet give opinions, then u have people who actualy was in real raid infigths and pure eq bitterness in the game .


I mean in my own experience i never been in a nice server where all was a fairy tale with rotation and pick up raids.
I feuded with Foh to beat to kill quarm, when i started in antonius bayle server there was 4 type A guilds for the luclin expansion, when moved to druzzil ro , my guild feuded and killed the local usa based guild Hoss.



im sure there is alot of people with his own experiences im just saying i was a active raider in live , i was here when tmo started to compete and i guess if some new game appeal to me i will be aswell.


what i see here is like 2 points of view about a style of gaming in everquest.


its like have a debate btw a real time strategy videogames fan and a turn based fan.

[Arteker]

Quite a bit of Kunark is new to many of the players on this server, though they don't even get the chance to get bored of it because of all the players that say it's stagnant and old, yet still play it all the damn time anyway.

If this content is so stale that the only way you can enjoy it is by making a competition out of it, why not play red and let other people enjoy what you're not having fun with?

Actualy ravager u have a great point in that sense is a good idea , but there is alot of people who dont like pvp.

i mean i love everquest i love to raid but i love to group aswell and i love the sociala spects of the game.

if back in 2010 when i begin to test server there was a red server i would have probably attempt it (was guilded with alof of sullon zek ex pvpers). since there wasnt one i did attemp the only class i never played in live a necromancer.

[Joroz]

p99 is quite a bit different, people are different when loss is real loss... here you loose an account you just make another and continue on your way, back then you loose account your out all the subscription fee's and your time building your account. This has a direct impact on how people react in the game and the risks they take on breaking rules.

If they banned people and every account that has played on the IP people would think differently here too... collateral damage adds back that risk that all your accounts and any friends accounts you played are gone forever if you take risks that could loose your account. You would be the biggest asshole for getting your friends account's banned. And that is what this server really needs to start cleaning it up... Real Losses!

[falkun]

but there is alot of people who dont like pvp.
If you don't like PVP, why is tier1 shoving it on the rest of the server? You realize this competition against other humans (players) for "fastest jav in the west" is player vs. player? On the blue server, competition should be "player vs. environment", regardless of how "old & stale" the environment is. That's the argument of casuals, PVP is for Red99, where you can turn around and attack that monk vying for "fastest jav in the west".

[Autotune]

If you don't like PVP, why is tier1 shoving it on the rest of the server? You realize this competition against other humans (players) for "fastest jav in the west" is player vs. player? On the blue server, competition should be "player vs. environment", regardless of how "old & stale" the environment is. That's the argument of casuals, PVP is for Red99, where you can turn around and attack that monk vying for "fastest jav in the west".

You're wrong

on blue, the other players that go against you are the environment.

[Ravager]

You're wrong

on blue, the other players that go against you are the environment.

You just wrinkled my brain.

[Daldaen]

You're wrong

on blue, the other players that go against you are the environment.

A player driven and created environment. This so called 'competition' is just another form of PvP in a game that greatly favors those who have the ability to be on at all hours for long periods of time.

[Autotune]

in a game that greatly favors those who have the ability to be on at all hours for long periods of time.

Sounds like every game without a pay-to-win option.

You should look for a game with a cash shop.

[Rhambuk]

Sounds like every game without a pay-to-win option.

You should look for a game with a cash shop.

underground RMT?

ya know buying alt armies etc....

[Autotune]

underground RMT?

ya know buying alt armies etc....

Alt armies were bought with plat.

The people who sold that alt army for plat sold the plat for real money.

[Rhambuk]

Alt armies were bought with plat.

The people who sold that alt army for plat sold the plat for real money.

so you're saying the alt army has been sold off and there isn't a raid ready char at every raid mob right now?

That's a huge plus!

[kotton05]

New raid scene was fun for the one night it lasted.

Oh well.

that wasn't a raid scene

[Alarti0001]

If you don't like PVP, why is tier1 shoving it on the rest of the server? You realize this competition against other humans (players) for "fastest jav in the west" is player vs. player? On the blue server, competition should be "player vs. environment", regardless of how "old & stale" the environment is. That's the argument of casuals, PVP is for Red99, where you can turn around and attack that monk vying for "fastest jav in the west".

Because this is EQ> Go find a game with instances!

[Daldaen]

Sounds like every game without a pay-to-win option.

You should look for a game with a cash shop.

As PvE should be. But the meta-game 'competition' that blocks those without exorbitant amounts of free time from partaking in high-end PvE is stupid. People that want to compete for mobs need to get on red. Where true competition happens. Not camped out alt armies bought with platinum earned from cornering the market on specific gear. Or those who made 10 of their own level 60 alts**

Cash shops are the downfall of MMOs. I'm very depressed that they are viable business models for game making companies. Paying beyond the game / subscription with no limit just makes earning stuff in games far less enjoyable since someone who got out their credit card earned it 10x faster with all their double exp potions and shit.

[Autotune]

so you're saying the alt army has been sold off and there isn't a raid ready char at every raid mob right now?

That's a huge plus!
I didn't say anything about them selling off their alt army or where they parked them. I corrected the manner as to which the alt army was originally purchased. If you want to thank someone for alt-rolling TMO with an army, you should thank VD/IB and the rest of the server. Without them, it wouldn't have been possible.

Pretty sure that some/most of that alt army ended up banned though.

[Babayaaga]

Actualy ravager u have a great point in that sense is a good idea , but there is alot of people who dont like pvp.

i mean i love everquest i love to raid but i love to group aswell and i love the sociala spects of the game.

if back in 2010 when i begin to test server there was a red server i would have probably attempt it (was guilded with alof of sullon zek ex pvpers). since there wasnt one i did attemp the only class i never played in live a necromancer.

I think it would be interesting to see, even if just for a brief period, exactly what would happen if we ported all of the pro-competition blue players on to red.

[Autotune]

As PvE should be. But the meta-game 'competition' that blocks those without exorbitant amounts of free time from partaking in high-end PvE is stupid. People that want to compete for mobs need to get on red. Where true competition happens. Not camped out alt armies bought with platinum earned from cornering the market on specific gear. Or those who made 10 of their own level 60 alts**

Cash shops are the downfall of MMOs. I'm very depressed that they are viable business models for game making companies. Paying beyond the game / subscription with no limit just makes earning stuff in games far less enjoyable since someone who got out their credit card earned it 10x faster with all their double exp potions and shit.

True competition doesn't even happen on red, anyone who even looks into that forum can see that.

People who advocate what you do is the reason instanced gaming was created. There are two different styles to playing EQ (non-pvp servers) without instances. You have the competitive style and the non-competitive style, neither are necessarily wrong or incorrect. However, what one side deems fun isn't for the other side and this is where we have the problem.

I personally don't like any raiding on p99 other than the repops and the occasional CT race/inny race (even a world dragon once or twice). I don't like alt armies, I don't like trak camping, I don't like rotating (VP was lame then), but I did it all for those few times it was enjoyable.

I did like training in VP, but that's a different thing... can't really call that "raiding".

[Rhambuk]

I didn't say anything about them selling off their alt army or where they parked them. I corrected the manner as to which the alt army was originally purchased. If you want to thank someone for alt-rolling TMO with an army, you should thank VD/IB and the rest of the server. Without them, it wouldn't have been possible.

Pretty sure that some/most of that alt army ended up banned though.

Gotcha

[Raavak]

that wasn't a raid sceneWell, the raids formed and buffed! It was a raid scene without raids!

[Raavak]

Why doesn't the staff just make all boss mobs spawnable with some token the guild leader gets. The trigger mobs respawn in hours. The guildleader gets new tokens every so often to start raids. That way guilds can raid when and where and how often they want to. And there is little to no competition, training, monopolization... it seems like this is where we are headed anyway.

Then also have random FFA spawns... less than we have now but have them... so that there still is a little racing, a little competition, for those that want to take part.

All this mob sharing stuff is so Un-Classic already why not just completely change the way it all is done.

And for the tokens, it would be like Tier 1 tokens and Tier 2 tokens... your guild leader gets to choose which mobs to spawn them with. So you could do like 2 VSs in a week or 2 Traks, or 1 and 1 or whatever your guild wanted to do.

[Uteunayr]

If you don't like PVP, why is tier1 shoving it on the rest of the server? You realize this competition against other humans (players) for "fastest jav in the west" is player vs. player? On the blue server, competition should be "player vs. environment", regardless of how "old & stale" the environment is. That's the argument of casuals, PVP is for Red99, where you can turn around and attack that monk vying for "fastest jav in the west".

This is making insanely good sense to me. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ytAZGNdCBY)

Why doesn't the staff just make all boss mobs spawnable with some token the guild leader gets. The trigger mobs respawn in hours. The guildleader gets new tokens every so often to start raids. That way guilds can raid when and where and how often they want to. And there is little to no competition, training, monopolization... it seems like this is where we are headed anyway.

Because some of us would find that abhorrent to force hardcore players to not play in a hardcore fashion. Believe me when I say that although I have been arguing heavily toward the casual side, I would be arguing the hardcore side if you all were forced into a play style that was not your own. You all want to compete, you want the hardcore style, and that's fine. But others don't, and that's fine too. That's the beauty of Rogean's plan. You all can compete amongst yourselves, and casuals can compete or rotate amongst themselves (whatever they decide). No one has to change play styles.

If the system you described was put into place, I'd be here arguing that hardcores got shafted because they are no longer able to enjoy their classic experience, the same way that right now, I am arguing that casuals are not getting their classic experience as it stands, because all the repop system did that we had was to make it so that casuals were able to play casual for 2 repops (at most 6 hours) of a month, rather than all month long. The Staff Proposal lets the casuals be casual all month long, and the hardcores be hardcore all month long. There's already a heavy emphasis on mobs in the hardcore side, and the idea of making the epic mobs have a Tier 1/Tier2/FFA split was a concession of that plan to give even more toward that playstyle. There's already enough in the base proposal for the hardcore guilds to compete over 2-3 mobs a day, every day, for the entire month, all year long.

Of course, if repops are on the table, then something needs to be added to the Staff proposal to handle that, but either way, hardcores get to hardcore all month long, as casuals get to casual all month long. No one forces hardcores to rotate their split of the mobs, nor the FFA epics. Hardcores get their classic experience, and casuals get their classic experience. If a casual guild wants to get the vast majority more mobs, and VP, then they can become tier 1 and compete, because that's what they want to do.

I don't see the issue here. So far, in all my posts, no one has pointed out what is wrong by giving everyone their classic experience as the Staff Proposal does.

[Raavak]

The proposed system is no anywhere near Classic anyway. In Classic Everquest 1 or 2 guilds dominated the end game and everyone else got little to nothing. Going away from this throws the whole "Classic" meme out the window already.

On E`ci at one point there was a public "pick up" Trakanon that started forming at the entrance in Sebilis. The dominant guild of the server got wind of this but didn't have a force on (this is pre-batphone remember) so they had like 2 rogues sneak down to near the lair and "claimed" they were going for Trak. The server GM said the public raid could not go down to Trak lair because they would be interferring with an ongoing raid (of 2 rogues). This was what REAL Classic was like.

[Babayaaga]

when there is no competition joroz , im the first to admit the hugue delay in velious have a impact in how the server developed.

i mean is very easy to blame , ib, tmo fe and bda in the end the truth this clusterfuck is due to lack of new things to people.


A prime example of this is my own guild tmo, at some point we lacked competition (wich started when tmo was FE and tmo was ib)and we turned into farm mode , people got bored and they levelñed alts, those alts of course are even more fun if they twink, so loot went to alts.
slowly guild decays but since remains realy uncontested guild get bloated(tmo never stoped to recruit, something hurted back in the IB).

Time pass and my guild only joy is competition if u look at the uncontested period pre FE tmo didint even half the strengh it had prior the froovy dupe and the following suspension.

suddenly FE rises and TMO is again in full road , good or bad the truth that kind of things keep the guild in motion.


whats the problem?FE suddenly have to deal and compete with alot of alts with good gear raid and motivated people , so its not like the TMO/IB first raid contest.


yes there is drama there is shit btw 2 guilds , im the first to admit i bashed people like tasslehoff and other FE members... list goes on.


but the thruth is suddenly we got cornered and when suspension was lifted fe ib tmo whre sittin at vp doors in a new scenario of competition, how it would have worked?.

i got no idea would have been fun to dicover once the 3 guild zoned into vp.


Now the drama is wich direction is the server rogean going to take . because there will be a fallout whatever rogean decision takes.

I think this is the first honest breakdown I've seen from a TMO member of their timeline and how they got to this point.

Any guild can be poisoned by one or two players. We are all vulnerable to this possibility. On that note it's not fair to call any guild out by the actions of a few (or many) players. Players should be dealt with on a situational basis.

I have only been on P99 for 6 months. I'm an example of a person who wants to "earn my way". I aligned myself with players who fit my personal life situation, playstyle and objectives that carried a reputation that I value - BDA.

I'm an example of "the newer player". I know of two TMO members that started within the same week that I did. I know that those two people have the same goals that I have. We levelled up together and I call them close friends (/wave Ereni and Fabben). As such I can speak on their character with utter honesty, and these two are examples of some of the most generous and loyal friends I have made in any game. They are also experienced players who are very good at whatever encounter they challenge from what I have seen. They aren't looking for handouts, they want to earn their way like I do. TMO is lucky to have them.

This is why the current ruleset as proposed by Sirken and Derubel doesn't fit. Both T1 and T2 guilds have Vintage players who experienced the timeline Arteker has described honestly and without malice. Both guilds have newer players they need to equip in preparation for Velious.

Splitting any guild between separate Tiers of content is going to cause issues within every guild because of this reason. Growth of our server's population is why we are faced with this challenge. Older (geared) players have left and many may never return. You need to refresh your forces to remain competitive. If you can't adequately gear those forces up because you are prevented access to content by server rulesets, then you create a new problem.

If we were to continue with the ruleset that Sirken/Derubel presented, the only "fix" I could see emerging would be existing guilds splitting their own guilds into "tiers" - Major and Minor. Once you have attained all Minor gear (Planar, Trak Dragon, Epic, Vox/Naggy), you would progress on to Major (VP). This dynamic would change on launch of Velious, but the structure would be similar. New players in minor guilds would be fighting alongside the Alts of players in the Major contingent (as well as their DKP).

There are several guilds that have the ability to make this split right now. If you counted the members of guildtags with players waiting to for the simulated repops, you would identify at least 6 guilds capable of doing this right now. This is why I am certain that something like this would develop eventually... out of sheer necessity.

The downside of that solution is that you don't really solve the problem that we are faced with right now. Minor guild types would inherit the same playstyles and mindsets and the problem we face today would be re-created, probably within a month's time. Tier 2 would suddenly have double the amount of guilds to contend with, including the new and emerging guilds as well as the new Minor guilds as outlined above. The same could happen in Tier 1, as Tier 2 guilds complete their requirements and move on to their major contingent in Tier 1.

Splitting content into Tiers is merely a band-aid, it isn't a fix. The players would find a solution that would allow them to compete in both arenas somehow. The true problem is that we still don't have enough content to meet demand... until Velious.

The only thing I liked about Sirken's and Derubel's solution were the rules that were outlined in regards to alt armies, poopsocking, training, etc. It is the behaviour of the few that needs to be changed. I say few, because douchebag behaviour is the exeption, not the rule. Whomever a douchebag aligns with is going to be smeared by their behaviour. Tolerance of that behaviour perhaps was another one of TMO's problems, but that's not for me to judge.

In terms of rotations, I can't really see any other way to empower everyone to have a fair shot at content until Velious comes out. It has been proven during TMO's ban that there are enough guilds that are capable of taking down this content, the only thing that prevented them perviously was disdain for the behaviour of other guilds in the competition arena. If that behaviour is adjusted, perhaps rotations aren't required, but there is a lot of anti-trust right now because of historical events.

[Uteunayr]

The proposed system is no anywhere near Classic anyway. In Classic Everquest 1 or 2 guilds dominated the end game and everyone else got little to nothing. Going away from this throws the whole "Classic" meme out the window already.

Rotations are a part of classic, just as is hardcore cutthroat competition. We are in an age in which we have insanely greater information than we did in Classic, and we have a lot more 60s on the server than we did in Classic. Much of this isn't classic, but what is P1999 for other than to let people try to relive the glory days that was the greatest time in MMO history? To see the content again, to play the game they loved again that SoE shattered.

Let the casuals have their classic, let the hardcores have their classic. The Staff Proposal allows for this, and it is why I would be arguing to defend the hardcores right for competition if they had to go into a forced rotation.

[Daldaen]

Why doesn't the staff just make all boss mobs spawnable with some token the guild leader gets. The trigger mobs respawn in hours. The guildleader gets new tokens every so often to start raids. That way guilds can raid when and where and how often they want to. And there is little to no competition, training, monopolization... it seems like this is where we are headed anyway.

Then also have random FFA spawns... less than we have now but have them... so that there still is a little racing, a little competition, for those that want to take part.

All this mob sharing stuff is so Un-Classic already why not just completely change the way it all is done.

Better solution would be to kill Red99 and move anyone who deems raid competition as the most fun thing and waking up at 3AM to kill a dragon to be a good use of their time, over to that competition server. Have some PnP with a rotation on the casual server. Any guild that appears out of the blue and tried to F with the rotation gets their toons punted to competition server.

I don't see any scenario where casuals are happy and where hardcores are happy. There will be posts "QQ casuals are getting the same pixels as me without having to track for 24hrs" or "QQ 95% of the raid content is monopolized by 2 guilds consistent of probably 200 people of the probably 2500~ on this server". If the status quo changes the first comment will continually be posted by the same people that have been posting that for week. If it changes the 2nd comment will be posted by the same people that have been posting that for weeks.

The only thing that will calm people down is splitting the groups of people via two different servers or completely eliminating a group of people either by forcing them to comply with whatever change is made, and banning those who don't comply.

[Rooj]

I don't know why people think there shouldn't be any competition for raid mobs on P99. This is what older MMOs were all about when it came to open world raiding, especially Everquest. Part of that competition is SUPPOSED to come from knowing the TOD. Mobilizing efficiently and quicker than other players is supposed to be a part of the encounter. The obvious problem is that 29374234987 alts are logged off at each raid mob. This wasn't an issue in 1999. This is the kind of thing that we need to be figuring out a fix for.

[Uteunayr]

I don't know why people think there shouldn't be any competition for raid mobs on P99. This is what older MMOs were all about when it came to open world raiding, especially Everquest. Part of that competition is SUPPOSED to come from knowing the TOD. Mobilizing efficiently and quicker than other players is supposed to be a part of the encounter. The obvious problem is that 29374234987 alts are logged off at each raid mob. This wasn't an issue in 1999. This is the kind of thing that we need to be figuring out a fix for.

Are there really that many people saying there shouldn't be any competition? I don't hear anyone advocating a forced rotation upon everyone on the server, in the same way I hear people advocating more cutthroat hardcore raiding upon people on the server.

The Staff proposal lets each side play their way, with their share of the toys. Competitive guilds get the majority of mobs, including VP to themselves, and casuals get to create their own style, be it friendly competition between one another, or through rotations between one another, which only introduces different challenges of diplomacy and alliance maintenance.

Both styles are classic, but on different servers. The server can be split in a reasonable way to allow both sides to play the style they like. Awesome. I don't see the issue.

[chief]

Everyone seems to think during classic eq every server had a rotation and loot fell out of the sky. This wasn't the case for many servers where 1-3 guilds would kill everything and the only time you got a mob was when a new expansion came out and the 1-3 guilds moved on to that.

[Uteunayr]

Everyone seems to think during classic eq every server had a rotation and loot fell out of the sky. This wasn't the case for many servers where 1-3 guilds would kill everything and the only time you got a mob was when a new expansion came out and the 1-3 guilds moved on to that.

Who? I haven't heard anyone advocating full, forced server wide rotations. The casuals have widely been behind Rogean's plan, as it lets hardcores play their classic style amongst themselves, and casuals play their classic style amongst themselves. While no, not every server was friendly raiding, or rotation based, nor was every server hardcore competition. We can be inclusive to both.

[Raavak]

Rotations are a part of classicNever saw 1 rotation in Classic. And I played 1999-2006 or so.

I don't see any scenario where casuals are happy and where hardcores are happy.Because I don't think its possible. Both ends want opposite things. I thought the "formerly approved" plan was about as close as you could get because it had 2 rule sets within the greater whole. Unfortunately we are now headed for a system where no one is happy.

Everyone seems to think during classic eq every server had a rotation and loot fell out of the sky. This wasn't the case for many servers where 1-3 guilds would kill everything and the only time you got a mob was when a new expansion came out and the 1-3 guilds moved on to that.This was Classic.

[Babayaaga]

Everyone seems to think during classic eq every server had a rotation and loot fell out of the sky. This wasn't the case for many servers where 1-3 guilds would kill everything and the only time you got a mob was when a new expansion came out and the 1-3 guilds moved on to that.

Nobody is asking for loot to fall out of the sky. Everyone wants the thrill of earning it. A rotation is a suggestion that people who have experience raiding here are suggesting as a band-aid fix until more content is delivered with Velious (the true problem).

If you were experiencing the problem first-hand, you would understand the true nature of the problem right now. Your post indicates that you do not.

[Hitpoint]

Why are we still talking about this shit? It's all been covered 1000 times from 100 different angles. T1 guilds want their efforts to be rewarded and their raid scene not to be shit on with rotations. T2 guilds want to see and experience content without having to compete for it, park characters, wake up at strange hours, or race to mobs. BDA wants as many free mobs as they can get without having to do anything besides lawyer on the forums, and they will milk this situation until they get it. GMs want their petition queue to be lower.

Okay, we've established all these things. There should be no more discussion about playstyle, or what this server was meant for, or how players should choose to play the game.

How many mobs does BDA need before they agree to a plan?

How many mobs should T1 be forced to give up?

Schedule another meeting and answer these two questions. All that matters is negotiations, so stop fucking wasting your time debating anything else. Don't let Chest waste 15 minutes talking about how toxic the raid scene is and how the only thing that's fair is 50/50. Don't let anyone from T1 talk about the spirit of competition. This shit doesn't matter because neither side will ever agree. Just figure out what each side can live with and let us move on.

And why hasn't a new meeting been scheduled yet? Fuck, we all know from the time you plan one it's going to take everyone like 2-3 days to make sure they can make it. Stop delaying this shit.

[Uteunayr]

Never saw 1 rotation in Classic. And I played 1999-2006 or so.

Did you play on every server at the top tier to get a hold of their rotation? Many people here remember a rotation on their server, and many people here remember FFA competition on their server. Both can be included.

[Babayaaga]

Never saw 1 rotation in Classic. And I played 1999-2006 or so.

Neither did I, but our server wasn't as heavily populated as P99 is either, nor did it have the same volume of experience that exists here.

[Babayaaga]

Why are we still talking about this shit? It's all been covered 1000 times from 100 different angles. T1 guilds want their efforts to be rewarded and their raid scene not to be shit on with rotations. T2 guilds want to see and experience content without having to compete for it, park characters, wake up at strange hours, or race to mobs. BDA wants as many free mobs as they can get without having to do anything besides lawyer on the forums, and they will milk this situation until they get it. GMs want their petition queue to be lower.

Okay, we've established all these things. There should be no more discussion about playstyle, or what this server was meant for, or how players should choose to play the game.

How many mobs does BDA need before they agree to a plan?

How many mobs should T1 be forced to give up?

Schedule another meeting and answer these two questions. All that matters is negotiations, so stop fucking wasting your time debating anything else. Don't let Chest waste 15 minutes talking about how toxic the raid scene is and how the only thing that's fair is 50/50. Don't let anyone from T1 talk about the spirit of competition. This shit doesn't matter because neither side will ever agree. Just figure out what each side can live with and let us move on.

And why hasn't a new meeting been scheduled yet? Fuck, we all know from the time you plan one it's going to take everyone like 2-3 days to make sure they can make it. Stop delaying this shit.

Think "loopholes" Hitpoint. Read between the lines. The answer is there.

First Clue: Tier 1 and Tier 2 anything (mobs/guilds) as a classification is folly, because these are volatile variables.

Second Clue: Behaviours of players won't change. An asshole is still an asshole and a flower is still a flower, no matter what rules you apply to them.

Third Clue: Without more content, there still isn't enough to distribute amongst the capability of the entire playerbase.

[Aaron]

Never saw 1 rotation in Classic. And I played 1999-2006 or so.

I did.

Point. Counterpoint.

[Alarti0001]

Everyone seems to think during classic eq every server had a rotation and loot fell out of the sky. This wasn't the case for many servers where 1-3 guilds would kill everything and the only time you got a mob was when a new expansion came out and the 1-3 guilds moved on to that.

Rotations were on old content... maybe 1 instance of a rotation on current content and that wasnt until velious (less mob scarcity)

[Autotune]

All raid targets outside VP and SKY should go

T1/T2/FFA (Which was what I proposed for Inny/VT/Trak/VS, just applied to everything by rogean now I hear)

That solves all problems.

No matter how you look at it, the hardcores are going to have to skip targets, might as well do it as easily as possible.

Also, I laugh at the people who will complain that they will have to "Keep up with whose turn it is" when you silly fucks keep up with every kill time regardless of who kills what anyhow.

[Uteunayr]

Why are we still talking about this shit? It's all been covered 1000 times from 100 different angles. T1 guilds want their efforts to be rewarded and their raid scene not to be shit on with rotations. T2 guilds want to see and experience content without having to compete for it, park characters, wake up at strange hours, or race to mobs. BDA wants as many free mobs as they can get without having to do anything besides lawyer on the forums, and they will milk this situation until they get it. GMs want their petition queue to be lower.

Okay, we've established all these things. There should be no more discussion about playstyle, or what this server was meant for, or how players should choose to play the game.

How many mobs does BDA need before they agree to a plan?

How many mobs should T1 be forced to give up?

Schedule another meeting and answer these two questions. All that matters is negotiations, so stop fucking wasting your time debating anything else. Don't let Chest waste 15 minutes talking about how toxic the raid scene is and how the only thing that's fair is 50/50. Don't let anyone from T1 talk about the spirit of competition. This shit doesn't matter because neither side will ever agree. Just figure out what each side can live with and let us move on.

1) All non-epic, non VP mobs rotate between Tier 1 (Hardcore) and Tier 2 (Casual) between the tiers based on tier lockout. What each tier does with their mob is up to them, be it FFA competition/tracking, or rotation/delayed re-engagement friendly competition.

2) All epic mobs cycle tier 1 -> tier 2 -> FFA, to reward competition and give tier 2 guilds in the future a chance to see what it is like to compete against tier 1 guilds before deciding to become hardcore competitors, and join that style. (This was a compromise from epic mobs being in rule 1)

3) VP is never, and will never be a tier 2 raiding spot, it will never be casual, it will always be FFA with no stipulations other than those agreed upon by the tier 1 guilds for their style of gameplay, but that is between themselves, not for the casuals to create.

Casuals get their bubble, hardcores get their bubble, conflicts between these two playstyles stop by a hefty majority. Hardcores get 2-3 mobs a day, around 75 total a month, to compete over, and casuals can claim the rest to do with whatever they wish.

Done. Everyone can peaceably coexist in this setting. Hardcores are left to FFA among themselves, by their own terms, and casuals amongst themselves, by their own terms. Everyone gets their own environment, and can go to whichever environment they want.

Problem solved.

[Raavak]

Did you play on every server at the top tier to get a hold of their rotation? Many people here remember a rotation on their server, and many people here remember FFA competition on their server. Both can be included.

I never played on a server with an end game rotation. I was on E`ci and Tunare. The most cooperation I know of was later in PoP over backflagging each other's recruits (and it was basically a Tier 2 agreement).

Caveat, there was an Asian & American rotation on Trakanon (HoO or Vane / Reconstructed), but that was more because they played 12 hours apart more than any formal agreement. If you weren't in these 2 top dogs during Kunark you didn't get Trakanon EVER nor saw VP. My Tier 2 guild did end up sniping a Trakanon by staying up late one night and killing it on Asian time, but I think this was within weeks of Velious coming out. Prior to Kunark the top one guild killed 90% of Naggy/Vox/CT/Inny. In Velious the top 2 guilds (Vane/Reconstructed) monopolized the end game, farmed ST and NToV, woke the Sleeper, again until just weeks before Luclin came out (Vane had quit EQ by this point too). Unless we were lucky all we got was Vyemm who's gflux was too annoying so Recon left it up and we just farmed ST named golems for 2h primal since that's all that dropped post Sleeper.