Unbrella

[Thulack]

We have absolutely no bargaining power in this negotiation. The only group of players (or so called minority) are the only ones being effected by the server-wide suspension, and our guilds have already lost players and had members post farewells to P99 on our forums as a result of the suspension. It's easy to say we're to blame as we created this, but to what extent? Both guilds have drafted a number of proposals with each one being rejected.

Also, how is it that we keep getting pinned as a minority when the members of TMO, FE, and IB have some of the highest collective playtimes, guild rosters each in excess of around 180+, and have most of the oldest members in the p99 community?.

You still don't get it do you? You are the minority. I keep thinking about Mitt Romney talking shit on the 47% and then he gets 47% of the vote lol. That is you :D

[doraf]

So, how has Obama's reelection worked out for you?

[Hitpoint]

You still don't get it do you? You are the minority. I keep thinking about Mitt Romney talking shit on the 47% and then he gets 47% of the vote lol. That is you :D

Pretty sure that doesn't matter.

[Ella`Ella]

My own RnF... I finally made it! I'm a somebody!

[Pint]

hold the phone, the top players/raiders on the server are not the majority? soo top end raid loot is only being distributed to a small portion of the server? classic status achieved.

[baalzy]

Less than 5% of the server (TMO, FE and IB combined) is, infact, a minority.

[Raavak]

Romney was right, he just shouldn't have said it as a politician. 47% of the lazy bottom feeders demanding handouts and not wanting to work for what they receive.

Sounds familiar.

I went out and got multiple degrees, have a great job, family, etc. I get taxed to high heaven, but at least at the end of the day when I lay down I know I put in an honest days work, and that I earned all that I have.

[Funkutron5000]

Less than 5% of the server (TMO, FE and IB combined) is, infact, a minority.

So you think it's cool to repress minorities, is what people are saying?

[Ella`Ella]

Less than 5% of the server (TMO, FE and IB combined) is, infact, a minority.

Where did that number come from?

[Raavak]

Less than 5% of the server (TMO, FE and IB combined) is, infact, a minority.Have you counted the members of these guilds? TMO > 5% of the server.

[Hitpoint]

80% of all statistics are made up.

[Raavak]

http://goo.gl/TvWDlp?gdriveurl

[Frieza_Prexus]

Less than 5% of the server (TMO, FE and IB combined) is, infact, a minority.

Do we have official numbers on that?

Also, it's a bit disingenuous to count a lot of players who are not, and never will be, of raiding level. They have no stake in the raid scene, and they should not merit nearly as much, if any, consideration here. Should a semi-active player with a single high level warrant as much consideration as a single player that is extremely active on the high end?

Assuming those 3 guilds average 120 active players and they clocked in at 5% of those who have a stake in the raid environment that'd be 360 players out of 7,200. Do you mean to say that there's ~7,000 other players with a tangibly manifested interest in the raid scene?

[Thana8088]

Yar we are either a severe minority, or a massive zergling force on the server. Depends on the day!

[baalzy]

Have you counted the members of these guilds? TMO > 5% of the server.

Here:
http://p1999pop.dmsimard.com/db/Guilds

TMO 2.31%
FE 1.57%
IB 1.09%
Total = 4.97%

BDA 4.05%
Taken 2.15%
Europa 2.03%
Divinity 1.85%
AG 1.81%
A-Team .88%
Total = 12.77%

[baalzy]

Here:
http://p1999pop.dmsimard.com/db/Guilds

TMO 2.31%
FE 1.57%
IB 1.09%
Total = 4.97%

BDA 4.05%
Taken 2.15%
Europa 2.03%
Divinity 1.85%
AG 1.81%
A-Team .88%
Total = 12.77%

In after 'Prove it'

[Daldolma]

the fuck are we talking about percentages?

make end game classic, fuck all y'all's proposals

[Hitpoint]

So FE is one of the smallest raiding guilds on the server. And 4.5% BDA is a T2 guild. Interesting numbers.

[Thulack]

the fuck are we talking about percentages?

make end game classic, fuck all y'all's proposals

classic end game on my server was a rotation so i'm down for that ;)

[Ella`Ella]

In after 'Prove it'

I'm going to let you figure out what's wrong with your math and the manipulation of statistics instead of telling you - it'll give you something to do.

[Splorf22]

Baalzy, your link measures characters not actual players, but if anything that should at least not hurt TMO.

Also, Xasten, you are missing the context. Unbrella wanted Rogean to despawn the efreeti and other non-raid mobs that drop nice gear. Rogean pointed out that he was being a sociopath, and Unbrella starting whining about how FE and TMO were the only people on the server that mattered.

[Funkutron5000]

Apparently if you combine Full Circle and Flawless Victory you get a guild with more members than FE. How the hell?

[Frieza_Prexus]

That's a database of 13,609 characters.

That does nothing to tell us about the number of players. The only thing we have to go off of are the nightly server numbers which hover around 1,000. TMO alone has over 120 active players. Also, you've yet to address the question of why should we count people that have no demonstrable stake in the raid scene.

TMO, FE, and IB are certainly not the majority of the server, but when you discount those who do not raid several different groups will be identifiable. While these three guilds are are not a majority of those concerned with the end game, they are very likely a strong plurality.

[Hitpoint]

Baalzy, your link measures characters not actual players, but if anything that should at least not hurt TMO.

Also, Xasten, you are missing the context. Unbrella wanted Rogean to despawn the efreeti and other non-raid mobs that drop nice gear. Rogean pointed out that he was being a sociopath, and Unbrella starting whining about how FE and TMO were the only people on the server that mattered.

I think he was pointing out how we're being hurt by the raid suspension more than the other guilds who are just trying to prolong the raid ban to try and get what they want.

You should not be allowed to negotiate in the Raid Discussion forums. You are very rude and illogical.

[Detoxx]

My own RnF... I finally made it! I'm a somebody!

Ha! I beat you to it buddy.

[Splorf22]

Xasten, are you stating that TMO players have fewer alts on average than players in other guilds? The character instead of player comparison only makes you look larger than you really are.

I think the estimate is quite reasonable: TMO/FE/IB are outnumbered by the casual scum by 2-3:1, making you some 30% of the endgame scene. And if things were to become less competitive, it would be 5-6:1 after all of the people who got a whiff of the raid scene and quit in disgust came back.

Furthermore, Rogean used the term minority because Unbrella wanted to despawn camps that were available to people far removed from the raid scene (e.g. efreeti).

[Raavak]

There are so many things wrong with those posted statistics I'd be embarrassed to post it.

[doraf]

TMO/FE/IB also keep very tight rosters with active players.

[Funkutron5000]

I would like to know how many of those are active toons and how many are toons, tagged, that sit lonely, never knowing the joys of being logged in.

[Splorf22]

There are so many things wrong with those posted statistics I'd be embarrassed to post it.

If you said this at any academic conference, they would beat you to death with their pocket protectors.

[Gaffin 3.0]

i love lamp

[baalzy]

That's a database of 13,609 characters.

That does nothing to tell us about the number of players. The only thing we have to go off of are the nightly server numbers which hover around 1,000. TMO alone has over 120 active players. Also, you've yet to address the question of why should we count people that have no demonstrable stake in the raid scene.

TMO, FE, and IB are certainly not the majority of the server, but when you discount those who do not raid several different groups will be identifiable. While these three guilds are are not a majority of those concerned with the end game, they are very likely a strong plurality.

Yes I'm aware it's based on characters. So what. Are you arguing that TMO members have more alts or fewer alts than any one else on the server? It seems entirely likely to me that TMO also has more characters which don't "belong" to anybody but are shared port/buff/tracking bots which would proportionally make your total player count lower.

And while my point of calling you guys less than 5% of the server is conflated, my actual numbers still demonstrates that the 'tier 2' guilds combined are more than twice your number and I'm pretty sure those people are invested enough to 'count' when discussing end-game.

Or are you going to insist that TMO members have fewer alts than non-TMO members?

[Frieza_Prexus]

No, I'm just pointing out that the numbers Baalzy posted aren't the same as what he said they are. I'm also trying to make the point that not all warm bodies should merit consideration in these discussions, only those with a tangible stake.

I do see Unbrella's point, without condemning or condoning what he's asking for, that the negotiations are heavily influenced by outside intervention shifting the natural balance of power.

[Funkutron5000]

Yes I'm aware it's based on characters. So what. Are you arguing that TMO members have more alts or fewer alts than any one else on the server? It seems entirely likely to me that TMO also has more characters which don't "belong" to anybody but are shared port/buff/tracking bots which would proportionally make your total player count lower.

And while my point of calling you guys less than 5% of the server is conflated, my actual numbers still demonstrates that the 'tier 2' guilds combined are more than twice your number and I'm pretty sure those people are invested enough to 'count' when discussing end-game.

Or are you going to insist that TMO members have fewer alts than non-TMO members?

Either way, are you condoning a majority group oppressing a minority group? It kind of sounds like you are. Racist.

[baalzy]

No, I'm just pointing out that the numbers Baalzy posted aren't the same as what he said they are. I'm also trying to make the point that not all warm bodies should merit consideration in these discussions, only those with a tangible stake.

I do see Unbrella's point, without condemning or condoning what he's asking for, that the negotiations are heavily influenced by outside intervention shifting the natural balance of power.

I respect ya, believe me I do Xasten because you're demonstrated yourself to be level headed and fair-minded, but arguing that 'prime time population' should count completely discounts Europas stake in all of this and from a tagged character standpoint they're not that far behind TMO.

[Raavak]

Rogean pointed out that he was being a sociopath, and Unbrella starting whining about how FE and TMO were the only people on the server that mattered.No, he was inferring that FE/TMO/IB play EQ to raid, every day, as much as they can, and that the people who play EQ to farm plat and want to occasionally raid something (if its not too much of a hassle) are sitting back and not coming to a compromise doing what they love to do best, which is not raid.

[Raavak]

... completely discounts Europas stake in all of this...Europa was against last Sunday's agreement?

[baalzy]

Either way, are you condoning a majority group oppressing a minority group? It kind of sounds like you are. Racist.

Depends on what you consider 'oppressing'. So far we've had a deal rejected by the minority group which would have given that minority 66% of the mobs and we've had a deal get retracted where the majority group would have only got 25% of the mobs and this was also dissatisfying to them.

Maybe a compromise needs to be met where itsa 70/30 minority/majority split, I don't know but all of this spin about tier2 oppressing tier1 is bull.

[Alarti0001]

You still don't get it do you? You are the minority. I keep thinking about Mitt Romney talking shit on the 47% and then he gets 47% of the vote lol. That is you :D

No you are the minority. Don't you get it?

[Alarti0001]

My own RnF... I finally made it! I'm a somebody!

Welcome to the club.

Where did that number come from?

Join the Prove It club!

[Geofizzle]

NO YOURE THE MINORITY

[Alarti0001]

Here:
http://p1999pop.dmsimard.com/db/Guilds

TMO 2.31%
FE 1.57%
IB 1.09%
Total = 4.97%

BDA 4.05%
Taken 2.15%
Europa 2.03%
Divinity 1.85%
AG 1.81%
A-Team .88%
Total = 12.77%

Those numbers are very far off how dated are they?

[baalzy]

Those numbers are very far off how dated are they?

Last update at 2014-01-06 20:31:58 EST

[Thulack]

Those numbers are very far off how dated are they?

Last update at 2014-01-06 20:31:58 EST

Actually they probably have closer to 2.00% as those numbers probably account for a few toons that arent around anymore ;)

[Funkutron5000]

It'd be a much more telling data set if to be included in the numbers the toons had to have been logged in sometime in the last, I dunno, 30 days or so.

[baalzy]

It'd be a much more telling data set if to be included in the numbers the toons had to have been logged in sometime in the last, I dunno, 30 days or so.

Yes it would be ideal to know the number of unique IPs which have logged in to to characters belonging to each guild over the last 30 days. That'd give a pretty accurate idea of true active populations of the guilds. Unfortunately the only GM I'm aware of who ever really did such things was Uthgaard and he's not around. He's also not likely inclined to post the numbers if they don't support his agenda.

This is the data I have available and I still believe is a reasonable approximation of the server population.

[Lazie]

Last update at 2014-01-06 20:31:58 EST

You do realize those numbers are off by a lot. That list is showing numbers for guilds that no longer exists on the server. It looks like a total count of players/char in each guild since the list was started. Not the actual current number of players/chars.

[Erati]

You do realize those numbers are off by a lot. That list is showing numbers for guilds that no longer exists on the server. It looks like a total count of players/char in each guild since the list was started. Not the actual current number of players/chars.

lets see your list.

[Doors]

Why TMO shouldn't even be included in any type of raid discussion:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131586

They should be thankful for whatever proposal is handed to them.

[MaksimMazor]

Weren't you banned?

[Doors]

Nope.

[Lazie]

lets see your list.

Hm ? The list he is using is completely wrong. I mean math off the top of my head that list shows close to 6000 chars(This isn't counting over the 1200 that were anonymous and a guild couldn't be established when you check the "Zones" tab). That isn't individual people playing on the server and it isn't a current number of chars being played on the server. So yeah trying to pass off over 7200 chars as players that are active is or as active chars a being played on the server daily is completely wrong.

[Tecmos Deception]

TMO > 5% of the server.

No, it isn't: http://p1999pop.dmsimard.com/db/Guilds

[YendorLootmonkey]

All the effort TMO & FE are putting into rules-lawyering their minority status could be better spent letting go of the premise they own the distribution rights to mob loot and continuing negotiations.

Or finding alternate sources of rent money, based on the about of crying and indignation that other players on the server might like to enjoy it the way they experienced classic instead of TMO/FE's version of it.

[Tecmos Deception]

Omg I'm 3+ pages late. Oh well.

[Tecmos Deception]

The only thing we have to go off of are the nightly server numbers which hover around 1,000. TMO alone has over 120 active players.

Comparing people online at a given time to people who have been online in the last couple weeks isn't quite right either!

Posted from my nexus 7 while I'm trying to take a shit.

[baalzy]

The list contains characters who've logged in for the last year (since the guy who runs that database began tracking Jan of 2013).

Proportionally I don't see how it's likely to be that inaccurate. It updates when it sees chars switch to new guilds and all guilds have turnover where people quit playing and all guilds have people who never take off /anon.

Unless you're arguing TMO is full of 1-character only champions and the rest of the server is full of filthy alt-degenerates and that TMO has a lower rate of people who never log in again then the other guilds I specifically added up, the only thing that's really up in the air still is the number of people currently active. I'd argue going off # of people active at a given time (such as peak) is a bad statistic because the only thing it really shows is that one guild has a higher population of people within a specific timezone then others.

[Shinko]

Inglourious Entry 3 (0.02%) i deleted that weeks ago...


also UNKOWN aka /A players?

huge chunk of TMO/FE players

[doraf]

All the effort TMO & FE are putting into rules-lawyering their minority status could be better spent letting go of the premise they own the distribution rights to mob loot and continuing negotiations.

Or finding alternate sources of rent money, based on the about of crying and indignation that other players on the server might like to enjoy it the way they experienced classic instead of TMO/FE's version of it.

It cracks me up that you guys never gave a shit about the status of the server until there was a chance you could get free loot out of it.

[Splorf22]

No, he was inferring that FE/TMO/IB play EQ to raid, every day, as much as they can, and that the people who play EQ to farm plat and want to occasionally raid something (if its not too much of a hassle) are sitting back and not coming to a compromise doing what they love to do best, which is not raid.

This is just not true. I would bet that the average Taken member spends more hours per day raiding than the average TMO member. What we dislike is are all the non-classic effects of variance: batphoning, tracking, poopsocking, and so on.

[Rogean]

Have you counted the members of these guilds? TMO > 5% of the server.

SELECT COUNT( DISTINCT ( account_id ) ) FROM `character_` WHERE timelaston > 138585600011587

SELECT COUNT( DISTINCT ( account_id ) ) FROM `character_` a LEFT OUTER JOIN guild_members b ON b.char_id = a.id WHERE b.guild_id =589 AND timelaston > 1385856000295

295 / 11587

2.5%

[baalzy]

295 / 11587

2.5%

<3

[YendorLootmonkey]

It cracks me up that you guys never gave a shit about the status of the server until Rogean put his foot down and gave the casuals an actual opportunity to shape the raid scene going forward instead of having the extreme hardcore version shoved down our throats with no choice.

Fixed it for ya.

It cracks me up that you and your kind are busy trying a smear campaign against Chest/BDA to make him look bad to the rest of the server for sticking up to you guys, while you have Unbrella basically saying "If we can't have our toys, neither can the rest of the server, INCLUDING those who currently have no stake in the raid scene." (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1266580&postcount=13)

Way to make your true feelings known for the up-and-coming players who might wish to join in the raid scene one day, guys. I hope they remember how badly you wanted to impact them out of your own pure greed when it comes time for them to participate.

Who's really the villain here now?

- Rejects Rogean's proposal that 7 of 9 guilds agreed to

- Claims BDA is holding everything hostage

- Now wants loot camps to be taken away, which impacts players who have stayed out of the raid scene precisely because of douchebaggery like this.

Get back to negotiating instead of slinging counter-productive shit and trying to dictate once again what the rest of the server gets and doesn't get.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Comparing people online at a given time to people who have been online in the last couple weeks isn't quite right either!

Posted from my nexus 7 while I'm trying to take a shit.

To clarify, I'm not suggesting that the nightly server population is a good way to do it either. It was really the only thing I could think of that provided a datapoint. EX: 1000 people logged on, you know that at least 1,000 unique people play here. After thinking about it, it's really pretty useless for the reasons you stated.

My main point is generally that some players should not be granted consideration in these discussion whereas some groups warrant more consideration. The problem is we don't have the data that we need to properly weigh these factors.

[YendorLootmonkey]

295 / 11587

2.5%

inb4 "Now add all the alts owned by TMO members that are tagged in other guilds to create subterfuge and see what that percentage increases to." ;)

[MaksimMazor]

Out of those 12k how many are of raiding capacity

[Daldolma]

295 / 11587

2.5%

rogaine swoops in for the windmill slam

[Rogean]

Out of those 12k how many are of raiding capacity

Why does that matter?

Why is raiding the only fucking thing you guys think is important?

Hello there are 12k other people on the server enjoying things other than raiding.

[YendorLootmonkey]

My main point is generally that some players should not be granted consideration in these discussion whereas some groups warrant more consideration. The problem is we don't have the data that we need to properly weigh these factors.

So you're saying that some players, despite not being a part of the raid scene now, should at no time in the future be part of that raid scene and thus shouldn't have a voice in shaping the future raid scene of this server? Sounds a bit elitist to me.

Every single player from Alarti to the level 3 newb down in Crushbone has a stake in this server. Their voices should be nothing less than equal. Or are you wanting to squelch your future epic MQ customers? Who gave you the right to decide your "voice" is worth "more"?

[MaksimMazor]

I'm sorry I didn't think the non raiders were included among dragon killing discussion

[YendorLootmonkey]

I think Rogaen began the process by showing your ass that your guild makes up less than 3% --- AKA THE MOTHERFUCKING MINORITY!

To be fair, Metallikus, they're in the process of trying to rules-lawyer what "minority" means in this situation by requesting to erroneously use the number of actively raiding players as the denominator in that percentage.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I'm sorry I didn't think the non raiders were included among dragon killing discussion

Are they not allowed to kill TMO's dragons some day?

And you accuse the casuals of entitlement? LOL

[Daldolma]

y'all are so fucked.

big rog ain't blind, he's in year 3 of kunark with the raid scene completely shut down and he's still got server pop of 900 at 4PM PST on a thursday.

your leverage doesn't exist. tmo means far less to this server than y'all seem to think you do

[TWDL_Prexus]

Why does that matter?

Why is raiding the only fucking thing you guys think is important?

Hello there are 12k other people on the server enjoying things other than raiding.

Jesus Christ, Rogean is the man. Seriously, thank you for everything you do and put up with in EqEmu and P1999.

[Frieza_Prexus]

So you're saying that some players, despite not being a part of the raid scene now, should at no time in the future be part of that raid scene and thus shouldn't have a voice in shaping the future raid scene of this server? Sounds a bit elitist to me.

Every single player from Alarti to the level 3 newb down in Crushbone has a stake in this server. Their voices should be nothing less than equal. Or are you wanting to squelch your future epic MQ customers? Who gave you the right to decide your "voice" is worth "more"?

The point I am making is that not every lowbie and player on this server will participate in the raid scene. I do not have those numbers, obviously, but philosophically, the point stands. You have people who are chronic altaholics who will never raid, you have the neckbeards, and everything in between. However, we are talking about the endgame. Those who do not meaningfully participate currently, are not likely to participate, and those who are unable to participate all should have varying weights assigned to their voice.

The opposite is also true. Should an issue arrise that only affects casuals as opposed to raiders, their voice should carry more weight as to that issue. Please keep in mind that this is my opinion, and I understand that there is an alternative and popular view. It's essentially legal realism versus legal positivism which boils down to "is every voice equal no matter what, or should some groups, by virtue of their situation, be given more weight?"

To frame the issue: In treaty negotiations on the law of the sea should, say South Sudan, wield as much diplomatic influence as England, Japan, or any other country with a much larger interest in the waterways? Most governments have accepted the realism angle that a group's voice should not be severed from its situation. I'm not saying that we should just ignore the majority of the server in favor of TMO, FE, and IB. I'm simply making the point that situation, stake, and standing are valid considerations when weighing an actor's voice.

[Thulack]

Why does that matter?

Why is raiding the only fucking thing you guys think is important?

Hello there are 12k other people on the server enjoying things other than raiding.

Thank you sir :)

[Pan]

We'd all do well to remember that we're guests here. We're entitled to nothing.

[Prismaticshop]

OP obviously got their jimmies rustled by Brella

GG brella

[YendorLootmonkey]

The point I am making is that not every lowbie and player on this server will participate in the raid scene. I do not have those numbers, obviously, but philosophically, the point stands. You have people who are chronic altaholics who will never raid, you have the neckbeards, and everything in between. However, we are talking about the endgame. Those who do not meaningfully participate currently, are not likely to participate, and those who are unable to participate all should have varying weights assigned to their voice.

The opposite is also true. Should an issue arrise that only affects casuals as opposed to raiders, their voice should carry more weight as to that issue. Please keep in mind that this is my opinion, and I understand that there is an alternative and popular view. It's essentially legal realism versus legal positivism which boils down to "is every voice equal no matter what, or should some groups, by virtue of their situation, be given more weight?"

To frame the issue: In treaty negotiations on the law of the sea should, say South Sudan, wield as much diplomatic influence as England, Japan, or any other country with a much larger interest in the waterways? Most governments have accepted the realism angle that a group's voice should not be severed from its situation. I'm not saying that we should just ignore the majority of the server in favor of TMO, FE, and IB. I'm simply making the point that situation, stake, and standing are valid considerations when weighing an actor's voice.

So, you're saying TMO is entitled to more of a voice than the majority of the server when it comes to the raid scene because they prevented much of that majority from participating in it at that insane, extreme level? Tell me more about this sense of entitlement.

[Pan]

The only clear bargaining chip that any of us have here is withdrawing our consent - i.e. not logging in.

It's clear from the numbers that the lack of / loss of high-end guilds will not affect the server population in any meaningful way...and that's part of the equation that many of those in the negotiations are blind to.

Should all of the top tier / population-heavy guilds unanimously withdraw their consent and refuse to log on, guess what might happen? The population would be remarkably similar (not accounting for those who might join up / come back for/to a healthier raid scene) and dragons would still die regularly.

I don't think you negotiators understand that. I/you/we don't have a lot of chips at this table - if any.

All he's asked is for you all to get together and figure out how to distribute the resources in, by his definition, a more sane way. Yet you still talk of "giving mobs away" like you own them.

What's wrong with you that you cannot understand the construct under which you are operating?

[Thulack]

OP obviously got their jimmies rustled by Brella

GG brella

Just wanted people to know where their actual place was not where they think they belong.

[Splorf22]

I'm sorry I didn't think the non raiders were included among dragon killing discussion

Seems people having fun in zones that don't involve raid targets is somehow offensive to Unbrella, although I'm not sure how.

[Visual]

Much like life, eq was designed to reward the people who sacrifice the most. The fact that people have to give up so much to attain these particular items gave them their intrinsic value.

I think it's a bad call to step in and pervert the authentic feel of the game that they worked so hard to foster, but what do I know.

[YendorLootmonkey]

The fact that people have to give up so much to attain these particular items gave them their intrinsic value.

This is a sad statement for everyone that plays video games to read. :(

[Bones]

get free loot out of it.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/Rampdog/Ramps/head_up_ass.jpg

[baalzy]

The point I am making is that not every lowbie and player on this server will participate in the raid scene. I do not have those numbers, obviously, but philosophically, the point stands. You have people who are chronic altaholics who will never raid, you have the neckbeards, and everything in between. However, we are talking about the endgame. Those who do not meaningfully participate currently, are not likely to participate, and those who are unable to participate all should have varying weights assigned to their voice.

The opposite is also true. Should an issue arrise that only affects casuals as opposed to raiders, their voice should carry more weight as to that issue. Please keep in mind that this is my opinion, and I understand that there is an alternative and popular view. It's essentially legal realism versus legal positivism which boils down to "is every voice equal no matter what, or should some groups, by virtue of their situation, be given more weight?"

To frame the issue: In treaty negotiations on the law of the sea should, say South Sudan, wield as much diplomatic influence as England, Japan, or any other country with a much larger interest in the waterways? Most governments have accepted the realism angle that a group's voice should not be severed from its situation. I'm not saying that we should just ignore the majority of the server in favor of TMO, FE, and IB. I'm simply making the point that situation, stake, and standing are valid considerations when weighing an actor's voice.

How do you propose we weight things? If you want to look at it from just the raid ready tier2 guilds we're still talking over about a 2.2:1 ratio of Tier2 to Tier1 and if you extrapolate Rogeans queries about TMOs population % I think it's pretty reasonable that the numbers I posted earlier are accurate enough.

Thats where it starts to get sticky. Do the tier1s truly "raid" or "play" more than the tier2s or is it really just a matter of the tier1s having more flexibility in their schedules? I'd rate myself as a casual, I have a full time job, a wife, and a second part-time business. I play 2-4 hours a night M-W and probably about 5 hours a day Fri-Sun. That gives me 21-27 hours a week of play time. Thats a part-time job pretty easily.

Here's the rub though, I don't have that much control over when those 21-27 hours are played due to having a life outside this game. I think it's pretty evident to anyone that 21 hours is more than enough time to run to and kill every raid mob and participate in full clears of every plane at least once a week.

However, If I'm to have any chance at experiencing any of the content there needs to be some level of control over when that content is available. Scream and shout about 'classic' all you want (this comment isn't specifically directed at you Xasten), but when you're at a point where a minority of the raid capable population makes it impossible or nearly impossible for a group of people more than twice-their size to experience content there's a huge imbalance there.

When the only concessions coming out of the hardcore crowd is ~20-25% of the mobs outside of their own special elite playground (and only if the total pot is nearly doubled) and any attempts to negotiate something a little more equitable are shouted down as tyrannical, there is a problem.

We're talking about something like 1/3rd of the raid capable players wanting to hold on to ~80% of the content and only in a way that makes it so no one can ever realistically try to plan their play time around it to get a shot.

[Frieza_Prexus]

So, you're saying TMO is entitled to more of a voice than the majority of the server when it comes to the raid scene because they prevented much of that majority from participating in it at that insane, extreme level? Tell me more about this sense of entitlement.

I know you're fishing for a yes, but it isn't that simple, so I'm sorry if a longer answer doesn't conveniently paint me as entitled for you.

There is first a definitional issue with WHO gets a voice. We can clearly see this in the raid forum. Notice that no elections were held, and no selection process was used. They simply rounded up the "top guilds" and gave them one vote each. Does this properly represent the server? Should each guild's vote count the same? What of the unguilded? As a thought experiment, if TMO, FE, and IB merged, should their voice carry the exact same weight as a small guild of elite players that has limited their guild size to 24 members? My view is that the new mega zerg clearly warrants more consideration to its perspective. This does not discount the smaller guild, but it does somewhat diminish their influence. The increased influence is due to size, dedication, level of participation, and other factors.

Secondly, you're framing the issue such that all the higher guilds are guilty of some nefarious scheme of exclusion. (Yes, there's a number of outright assholes in TMO, FE, and IB just want to ruin people's days. They deserve to be banned and removed from P99.) I agree with you that casuals are entitled to a reasonable expectation to meaningfully participate in the end game. However, the people you consider excluded simply found that participation was unpalatable as opposed to unavailable. If a party wrongs someone their voice should diminish. If another party simply doesn't "like" what the other party is doing it should have no bearing on the first party's influence.

I have freely acknowledged (in this very thread) that TMO does not speak for the server as if we counted for more than everyone else put together, nor should our voice alone decide the direction it goes in. I am making my point because I want to challenge the idea that all voices are equal by virtue of being present. I do this because I feel that notion is a disservice to the dialogue. Should 5,000 people make level 5 characters and play once a month for 10 minutes should we allow that group to impose their majority viewpoint on the server? I suspect most people will say "of course not!" Having established that the principle of "varied stake" is acceptable, I am simply seeking to apply that principle more specifically.

How do you propose we weight things?

Honestly, I'm not certain. I think a good first step would be to recognize that varied stake is an acceptable concept. Coupling that with an admission from the raiding guilds that casuals should have a reasonable expectation to meaningfully participate in the end game would be a good start.

[goshozal]

Why does that matter?

Why is raiding the only fucking thing you guys think is important?

Hello there are 12k other people on the server enjoying things other than raiding.

Reasons why raiding is important:

1) It's the core of the endgame, i.e. what you do once you hit 60
2) It's the point of the game with the highest level of competition
3) Raiding generates loot that has the highest value of anything in the game (I mean in terms of rarity, power, etc. In b4 RMT trolls).
4) It's the hardest part of the game, requiring the best coordination of large numbers of players.
5) It takes a substantial investment on the part of the player (leveling a character, learning your shit, gearing yourself, getting in a guild, etc.)

I think a far better question is: why are you, Rogean, so surprised that the raiding guilds care primarily about raiding?

I spent a great deal of time on this server caring about things other than raiding. I leveled a character to 60. I made money. I worked my way through a grueling epic quest (16 pieces, no MQ). I made friends. I spent time helping people get their gear/epics/plat.

So what's wrong with me focusing on raiding? It's the big thing to do in this game that I never got to do on live. I've spent tons of hours and effort getting to the point where I get to participate, and now you're just going to up and change the rules?

Where were you in 2011? 2012? 2013?

I mean, sure, it's your sandbox. You can do what you want. Chances are, I'm already done. I've already lost the will to login after the Sirken ban lift/ nevermind debacle. But you should know that taking this sudden turnaround after years of silence is going to make people confused and angry. It's also very hard to get involved in these kinds of discussions without showing a bias... and, if anything, a bias on your part will be what kills the server.

[Tiggles]

People are clearly forgetting that people in TMO/FE/IB are better people than the rest of the server.

We deserve more because we are superior.

[Ella`Ella]

Seems people having fun in zones that don't involve raid targets is somehow offensive to Unbrella, although I'm not sure how.

I don't believe that you're oblivious to what I was saying, however I do believe that you are willfully ignorant. When one party has nothing at stake and another is being forced into a submissive position, fair negotiation cannot take place. But you're not interested if fairness, your interest clearly lies in something easily summed up by "no guild left behind".

[Daldolma]

Here's the problem with your conception of varied stake. Legal realism as exemplified by maritime law is applied on the basis of access to water. Nobody could seriously argue that a landlocked country with no major maritime trade has as significant a stake in international maritime law as a country that is surrounded on all sides by water and has integral aspects of its economy wrapped up in maritime trade. Varied stake is a product of undeniable and largely inescapable geographic limitations.

This isn't a comparable situation. Whether or not a given guild has a significant stake in the end game is directly related to the rules that dictate the end game. Whether international maritime law settles on a set of regulations regarding piracy or not, South Sudan is not going to be terribly invested. But if variance is eliminated and rotations put into place, essentially every player on the server could be expected to have a stake in the raid scene. The rules, not the nature of the player, dictate the level of involvement for the vast majority of players. The level 5 alt-a-holic nostalgia fiend is the minority amongst the guilds being represented. Most players do reach raiding level and would participate, given the right set of rules.

[Fazlazen]

Why does that matter?

Why is raiding the only fucking thing you guys think is important?

Hello there are 12k other people on the server enjoying things other than raiding.

Perhaps because it is a raid discussion...

[Tasslehofp99]

People are clearly forgetting that people in TMO/FE/IB are better people than the rest of the server.

We deserve more because we are superior.

Only posting to say that I laughed at this, and...

You guys should all go get "Rust" on steam, that game is so fucking good. It's the most addictive gaming experience I've had since EQ. I'm considering hanging up the gloves on p99 for this game, atleast temporarily, because its that good. It's only in it's alpha stage right now so its likely to get a lot better, since it's only a work in progress at this point.

The game is hardcore, I mean you could spend all day gathering resources/supplies and building a shelter only to have some assholes come blow it up and rob all your shit if you're unlucky. Thankfully on the server I play on only my friends have explosive charges researched, for now.

[Ella`Ella]

Only posting to say that I laughed at this, and...

You guys should all go get "Rust" on steam, that game is so fucking good. It's the most addictive gaming experience I've had since EQ. I'm considering hanging up the gloves on p99 for this game, atleast temporarily, because its that good. It's only in it's alpha stage right now so its likely to get a lot better, since it's only a work in progress at this point.

The game is hardcore, I mean you could spend all day gathering resources/supplies and building a shelter only to have some assholes come blow it up and rob all your shit if you're unlucky. Thankfully on the server I play on only my friends have explosive charges researched, for now.

Remember that time you thought I jacked a pair of gaunts of fiery might? Yeah, I've got explosoves, biaaatchhh.

[Splorf22]

forced into a submissive position

It's not my fault Big Daddy Rogean bent you over and had his way with you, it's your own attitude and the posts it generates.

All you had to do was accept Rogean's original staff compromise. That would have given both FEIB and TMO about 1/3 of all targets, and better ones too considering how great VP is while the casual scum would have split the remaining 1/3 of the targets among 7-8 guilds and gotten something like 5% each.

I think your real problem is that you *know* that batphoning and tracking is retarded, and so you want more people to start doing it so that you have some social proof that you are right.

A group of social scientists infiltrated a secretive, doomsday cult based in modern-day Chicago that believed they were about to be whisked away on a spaceship because the end of the world was at hand. The scientists wanted to study the group's behavior in its natural occurrence. The group sold or gave away its belongings, students neglected their studies, people quit their jobs. They were committed, they believed. When the time came to leave, the group made public the coming disaster so the media came to watch. When the saucer didn't show, an atmosphere of despair among the group prevailed. The group had given up so much (property, money, jobs, education) that they could no longer afford not to believe. Next came a revelation from the group leader-because the group had cast so much light upon the world, God had saved the earth. Then came an instruction to publicize the explanation. What they had once kept secret, they now felt the need to publicize in the grandest scale.

Cialdini explains, "If they could spread the Word, if they could inform the uninformed, if they could persuade the skeptics, and if, by so doing, they could win new converts, their threatened but treasured beliefs would become truer. The principal of social proof says so: The greater the number of people who find any idea correct, the more the idea will be correct. The group's assignment was clear; since the physical evidence could not be changed, the social evidence had to be. Convince and ye shall be convinced!"

[Tasslehofp99]

Remember that time you thought I jacked a pair of gaunts of fiery might? Yeah, I've got explosoves, biaaatchhh.

ROFL

[Tecmos Deception]

Jesus Christ, Rogean is the man.

/thread ^ infinity

[YendorLootmonkey]

I think your real problem is that you *know* that batphoning and tracking is retarded, and so you want more people to start doing it so that you have some social proof that you are right.

^^ this.

[Visual]

This is a sad statement

I would say the same for people like you who are affected so deeply by things but don't have the wherewithal to do anything about it.

That is the worst quality to have

[Arteker]

People are clearly forgetting that people in TMO/FE/IB are better people than the rest of the server.

We deserve more because we are superior.

You are nuts or trolling , i been raidin with tmo longer than you and i never claimed to be superior to others and ence i deserve more shit u pulling.

only real thing i can account over 3 years is shit and more shit and people like you fucking around so we got more and even more troubles .

i love competition i love to raid with tmo and i can get some fun making and saying obscenitys to other players without enter on the eprsonal but i never claimed to be superior.

EQ always rewarded people willing to put more hours either raid or farming or who have more rl cash to burn and rmt but what u pulling is just retarded

[YendorLootmonkey]

I would say the same for people like you who are affected so deeply by things but don't have the wherewithal to do anything about it.

That is the worst quality to have

Refusing to stoop to your level of raiding is not the same as not having the wherewithal to do anything about it. When will you understand that?

[doraf]

Fixed it for ya.

It cracks me up that you and your kind are busy trying a smear campaign against Chest/BDA to make him look bad to the rest of the server for sticking up to you guys, while you have Unbrella basically saying "If we can't have our toys, neither can the rest of the server, INCLUDING those who currently have no stake in the raid scene." (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1266580&postcount=13)

Way to make your true feelings known for the up-and-coming players who might wish to join in the raid scene one day, guys. I hope they remember how badly you wanted to impact them out of your own pure greed when it comes time for them to participate.

Who's really the villain here now?

- Rejects Rogean's proposal that 7 of 9 guilds agreed to

- Claims BDA is holding everything hostage

- Now wants loot camps to be taken away, which impacts players who have stayed out of the raid scene precisely because of douchebaggery like this.

Get back to negotiating instead of slinging counter-productive shit and trying to dictate once again what the rest of the server gets and doesn't get.

Wow dude you need to relax. You're taking this game a little too serious. I actually like Chest. I think he's a pretty cool person to talk to. I disagree with the way BDA has handled this and obviously you all disagree with the way we are handling it as well. Like I said in the Raid Discussions, the negotiations are getting us no where and they are creating animosity between guilds.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I disagree with the way BDA has handled this and obviously you all disagree with the way we are handling it as well. Like I said in the Raid Discussions, the negotiations are getting us no where and they are creating animosity between guilds.

Agreed.

[Nirgon]

Why is raiding the only fucking thing you guys think is important?

^^

[Nerosys]

The only thing i don't understand is why people constantly cry about stooping to a certain level why is it because you don't feel like doing something the people that do are somehow losers or neckbeards its easy to say you won't stoop to a certain level when in actuality even if you tried to compete ffa you would lose regardless lets be real.

Rotokan

[Blink]

At the first guild summit (2 years ago?) with Sirken we were working on a system to eliminate poop socking and the overall shit show that was raiding on p99. We followed the system for 2 weeks then agreed to meet again and fix problems.

The next meeting Rogean showed up and essentially said "this all sounds a little too much like a rotation to me" and basically undid everything Sirken and the guild leadership had been working to resolve with the snap of his fingers.

Fast forward to now and Rogean is playing the people's champion waving his finger at TMO/FE/IB.


Entire thing makes me lol.

[arsenalpow]

I like BDA and casual guilds are apparently interchangeable.

[arsenalpow]

I like how*

I think I also called dragons wantons in the raid forum. Sup, mobile posting and not paying attention.

[The Situation]

The only thing i don't understand is why people constantly cry about stooping to a certain level why is it because you don't feel like doing something the people that do are somehow losers or neckbeards its easy to say you won't stoop to a certain level when in actuality even if you tried to compete ffa you would lose regardless lets be real.

Rotokan

Do you know what "periods" are?

They look like this: .

Commonly used to separate sentences.

[Nerosys]

Do you know what "periods" are?

They look like this: .

Commonly used to separate sentences.

I would ask if you know what dick is but i think its safe to assume you've taken multiple in you're mouth. Period !

[The Situation]

I would ask if you know what dick is but i think its safe to assume you've taken multiple in you're mouth. Period !

Not multiple at once.

[Lune]

Here's the problem with your conception of varied stake. Legal realism as exemplified by maritime law is applied on the basis of access to water. Nobody could seriously argue that a landlocked country with no major maritime trade has as significant a stake in international maritime law as a country that is surrounded on all sides by water and has integral aspects of its economy wrapped up in maritime trade. Varied stake is a product of undeniable and largely inescapable geographic limitations.

This isn't a comparable situation. Whether or not a given guild has a significant stake in the end game is directly related to the rules that dictate the end game. Whether international maritime law settles on a set of regulations regarding piracy or not, South Sudan is not going to be terribly invested. But if variance is eliminated and rotations put into place, essentially every player on the server could be expected to have a stake in the raid scene. The rules, not the nature of the player, dictate the level of involvement for the vast majority of players. The level 5 alt-a-holic nostalgia fiend is the minority amongst the guilds being represented. Most players do reach raiding level and would participate, given the right set of rules.

As much as your other views piss me off, this is an exceptional argument/metaphor. Gave me a boner

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Yendor, once we have an agreement, what is to stop others from wanting even more content handed out in a palatable way? Maybe every tuesday and thursday, at 7pm so the west coasters have time to get home, too. That list Rogean showed--everyone who is currently even thinking about raiding (including A-team, AG, etc.) is less than 15% of the server. If we take this to its logical conclusion (that everyone who wants an epic or raid loot) with the ability to zerg down a 32k dragon gets some, then we've got a rotation with a little over a month between getting a single target. People waiting 3 months for a shot at VS who may or may not have a wizard staff.

It's obviously shitty design to have mandatory epic quest pieces on mobs that spawn so rarely, but it is what it is. We either do public raids with full rotations on loot (or just /random) or we have what we have here. Any change that isn't is simply unfair to those who would have a voice otherwise.

[mgellan]

To frame the issue: In treaty negotiations on the law of the sea should, say South Sudan, wield as much diplomatic influence as England, Japan, or any other country with a much larger interest in the waterways?

Considering TMO/FE/IB act like South Sudan (given in this analogy douchbaggery can be equated with piracy) with a population of England, no, they shouldn't be given equal weight to people that respect the law and don't gain pleasure and wealth from the misery of the rest of the population...

Apt analogy, nice job!

Regards,
Mg

[Geofizzle]

Considering TMO/FE/IB act like South Sudan (given in this analogy douchbaggery can be equated with piracy) with a population of England, no, they shouldn't be given equal weight to people that respect the law and don't gain pleasure and wealth from the misery of the rest of the population...

Apt analogy, nice job!

Regards,
Mg

Now, now...is this the constructive attitude of the BDA members, the white knights we all know and love? You could try to be a little nicer, jeez. I demand that this member be disciplined in-game, this is surely not the attitude that reflects P99's Premiere Playnice Guild. I applaud your efforts in advance, Chest.

Regards,
Geofizzle

[arsenalpow]

Now, now...is this the constructive attitude of the BDA members, the white knights we all know and love? You could try to be a little nicer, jeez. I demand that this member be disciplined in-game, this is surely not the attitude that reflects P99's Premiere Playnice Guild. I applaud your efforts in advance, Chest.

Regards,
Geofizzle

How dare a BDA member post such contentious fare in Rants and Flames. I will dock the fuck out of his DKP. I promise.

[mgellan]

Yes, yes, I demand to be disciplined! Discipline me!

Uh, can I request Mohini in a leather bikini... and, like a whip? Alligator clips? I can bring the whip cream!!

Regards,

[Nirgon]

Try to enjoy the break from raiding pals.

Level up tons more ogre shamans/high elf enchanters/high elf (or cazic thule erudite!) clerics. Surely power leveling up tons more of these couldn't hurt more than the current raid scene problem.

[Bruman]

Now, now...is this the constructive attitude of the BDA members, the white knights we all know and love? You could try to be a little nicer, jeez. I demand that this member be disciplined in-game, this is surely not the attitude that reflects P99's Premiere Playnice Guild. I applaud your efforts in advance, Chest.

Regards,
Geofizzle

Confirmed poor and dirty person IRL.

[Servellious]

What a bunch of communist fucks this server hasn't changed one bit. Same people I see paying with ebt in from of me at the grocery store.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

How do Kagok.

[Servellious]

How do Kagok.

Life is good yourself?

[Raavak]

Try to enjoy the break from raiding pals.

Level up tons more ogre shamans/high elf enchanters/high elf (or cazic thule erudite!) clerics. Surely power leveling up tons more of these couldn't hurt more than the current raid scene problem.The more time we have away from raiding means the more raid-ready toons available. There really isn't a downside unless you want to believe in it.

[radditsu]

What a bunch of communist fucks this server hasn't changed one bit. Same people I see paying with ebt in from of me at the grocery store.

Wat

[Gaffin 3.0]

maximum rustle

http://youtu.be/_iQRXuAo6Eg

[Castigate]

Since the discussion strayed into a bunch of weird directions including figuring out how many people are/were in what guilds I found it odd that no one brought up vent/TS/mumble channels. I only mention it because as far as metrics for counting players are concerned I would think that is as useful as any. Also I found it really cool seeing the BDA vent channel hit its 100 person cap during that short raid reprieve, and I'm pretty sure we booted all the afks before hitting it. Hell when TMO got suspended and we hit the 75 person mark forcing us to upgrade the channel to 100 I was kind of amazed.

[SeruScars]

Also I found it really cool seeing the BDA vent channel hit its 100 person cap during that short raid reprieve, and I'm pretty sure we booted all the afks before hitting it. Hell when TMO got suspended and we hit the 75 person mark forcing us to upgrade the channel to 100 I was kind of amazed.

And you are proud? Double standard ftw.

[Castigate]

And you are proud? Double standard ftw.

Yes I enjoyed seeing the guild I'm in doing well.
What are you even talking about?
What standards do you think I am holding people to?
Please clarify.

[Pan]

And you are proud? Double standard ftw.

Another way to read it is that reasonable people with a modicum of sense who actually want to play the game decided to come back and check out what non-shitshow raiding might be like on p99.

Attrition on this server is horrific. Not blaming the raiding cesspool entirely, either. Lack of new content plays a role. But it's pretty likely that for many who logged in, that content was new to them.

[SeruScars]

No, assholes, you don't get to accuse other guilds of mass recruiting and growing into massive zergling forces and then be proud that you have 100 in vent.

[Pan]

No, assholes, you don't get to accuse other guilds of mass recruiting and growing into massive zergling forces and then be proud that you have 100 in vent.

BDA just doesn't boot old friends. Lotta them showed up for some fun. Kinda like that release when you have blueballs...

[myriverse]

So you think it's cool to repress minorities, is what people are saying?
When they are, in fact, the oppressive elite, you betcha.

[SeruScars]

BDA just doesn't boot old friends. Lotta them showed up for some fun. Kinda like that release when you have blueballs...

P99 soon to be covered in BDA's blueball release.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Here's the problem with your conception of varied stake. Legal realism as exemplified by maritime law is applied on the basis of access to water. Nobody could seriously argue that a landlocked country with no major maritime trade has as significant a stake in international maritime law as a country that is surrounded on all sides by water and has integral aspects of its economy wrapped up in maritime trade. Varied stake is a product of undeniable and largely inescapable geographic limitations.

This isn't a comparable situation. Whether or not a given guild has a significant stake in the end game is directly related to the rules that dictate the end game. Whether international maritime law settles on a set of regulations regarding piracy or not, South Sudan is not going to be terribly invested. But if variance is eliminated and rotations put into place, essentially every player on the server could be expected to have a stake in the raid scene. The rules, not the nature of the player, dictate the level of involvement for the vast majority of players. The level 5 alt-a-holic nostalgia fiend is the minority amongst the guilds being represented. Most players do reach raiding level and would participate, given the right set of rules.

It's taken me the better part of a day to figure out if I even had a rebuttal, much less a good one.

After mulling it over, I think you're right.

I'm looking at it too narrowly. For the record, I still think the concept is sound in theory that standing and situation have parts to play in determining stake, but you're right that the crucial difference here is that the geography, so to speak, is not immutable. The rules that define each individual's situation on P99 are capable of going anywhere which gives a much larger potential stake to almost every party. This makes a lot the "varied stake" far more marginal than how I presented it.

I painted myself into a corner by using the maritime analogy. In retrospect, I should have used a different analogy of international custom where each party's starting position was roughly the same and that standing depth of influence was defined by each party's affirmative actions. But, the point is largely irrelevant in light of your excellent rebuttal. Also, if I kept going it'd be too much of a one-man circle jerk even for myself (which says a lot given how much I love to talk without actually saying anything).

Point taken and well-received.

[radditsu]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TdeSh3vLvYI

[Frieza_Prexus]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TdeSh3vLvYI

http://i.imgur.com/eCiICId.gif

[Castigate]

No, assholes, you don't get to accuse other guilds of mass recruiting and growing into massive zergling forces and then be proud that you have 100 in vent.

When have I ever accused anyone of that?
Who the fuck are you to speak for my personal stance on things?
Who the fuck are you exactly?
What guild do you represent to comment on this since you are apparently very invested in it?
Have you even read the argument I was talking about? Many of the top guilds claim 120+ "active members" I was merely providing a method of proof for that type of thing.

Hiding behind fresh forumquest names doesn't really put you in position to accuse anyone of anything IMO.

[Arteker]

It's taken me the better part of a day to figure out if I even had a rebuttal, much less a good one.

After mulling it over, I think you're right.

I'm looking at it too narrowly. For the record, I still think the concept is sound in theory that standing and situation have parts to play in determining stake, but you're right that the crucial difference here is that the geography, so to speak, is not immutable. The rules that define each individual's situation on P99 are capable of going anywhere which gives a much larger potential stake to almost every party. This makes a lot the "varied stake" far more marginal than how I presented it.

I painted myself into a corner by using the maritime analogy. In retrospect, I should have used a different analogy of international custom where each party's starting position was roughly the same and that standing depth of influence was defined by each party's affirmative actions. But, the point is largely irrelevant in light of your excellent rebuttal. Also, if I kept going it'd be too much of a one-man circle jerk even for myself (which says a lot given how much I love to talk without actually saying anything).

Point taken and well-received.

jesus with lawyers i got enough with my wife:o

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Life is good yourself?

I'm good. P99 ver strange these days.

[Daldolma]

It's taken me the better part of a day to figure out if I even had a rebuttal, much less a good one.

After mulling it over, I think you're right.

I'm looking at it too narrowly. For the record, I still think the concept is sound in theory that standing and situation have parts to play in determining stake, but you're right that the crucial difference here is that the geography, so to speak, is not immutable. The rules that define each individual's situation on P99 are capable of going anywhere which gives a much larger potential stake to almost every party. This makes a lot the "varied stake" far more marginal than how I presented it.

I painted myself into a corner by using the maritime analogy. In retrospect, I should have used a different analogy of international custom where each party's starting position was roughly the same and that standing depth of influence was defined by each party's affirmative actions. But, the point is largely irrelevant in light of your excellent rebuttal. Also, if I kept going it'd be too much of a one-man circle jerk even for myself (which says a lot given how much I love to talk without actually saying anything).

Point taken and well-received.

The fact that you're a) not TMO's guild leader and b) not in the process of leaving TMO to form your own guild really sucks for the rest of the server.

Would join The Xastenical Order in a heartbeat.

[Fazlazen]

jesus with lawyers i got enough with my wife:o

me wife*

[Blink]

Heallun you faggot

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Heallun you faggot

yer the faggot, faggot. also, we're in RNF right?

Heard you guys were playin rust these days.

[Gaffin 3.0]

Heallun is a saint

[Tasslehofp99]

yer the faggot, faggot. also, we're in RNF right?

Heard you guys were playin rust these days.

Buy this game, EVERYONE!
You won't regret it, best 20 dollars I've spent on a video game that's still a work in progess. It's super fun and has loads of potential still (in alpha phase just yet) for an unfinished product.

[radditsu]

Heallun you faggot.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Heallun you faggot.

I'll have your head for slander, sir. Also, I never see you in game tanrin :| You've become a forum warrior.

[radditsu]

Tanrin retired. Rinat is where its at.


Tbh hard to find time. I would play now but I am watching terrible disney shows with my daughter.

[Blink]

yer the faggot, faggot. also, we're in RNF right?

Heard you guys were playin rust these days.

Yes, we are. Join the native american army on our server.

[Gaffin 3.0]

healluns laugh in vent, gets me everytime

[Unidus]

Better open a window before you drown Ella. Your guild and the other tier 1 guilds caused the raids to get frozen in the first place.

[Fazlazen]

Heallun best guy on server!

[Blink]

Better open a window before you drown Ella. Your guild and the other tier 1 guilds caused the raids to get frozen in the first place.

Lol, this guy acting like FE is what caused this servers raid scene to become shitty.

You must be new here.

[radditsu]

TMO is to hitler as FE is to the dictator in Tropico

Bda is totally stalin tho. Commie bastards.

[odiecat99]

http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/YG5ikKH6t2Y/0.jpg


Another shinko sighting

[Shinko]

WUT?

[odiecat99]

WUT?

lol.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Yes, we are. Join the native american army on our server.

I've considered buying it. Seems very worth 20 bucks. The shooting smooth?

[Tasslehofp99]

I've considered buying it. Seems very worth 20 bucks. The shooting smooth?

Its kind of graphics intensive.

My laptop which is a cheap pos can run it fine with settings lowered. If your computer was made in the last 3 to years and your graphics card isn't a piece of trash like mine the game should run great.

But to answer your question, despite the fact that my graphics card is weak the shooting seems satisfactory. I also think the finished product of this game will be a lot more refined than it is currently in it's alpha stage.