Clarification: Representative Limit

[Rogean]

There have been some questions about the rule regarding the limit on representatives at raid spawn, and situations like groups clearing Tola/Prot, for example.

The staff has decided that the rule will be enforced such as, if there are more than 2 representatives present at a raid target when the target spawns, that guild may make no attempt to engage that mob.

This means guilds are okay to clear trash mobs around a raid spawn without the risk of a raid policy violation, however they take the chance that the raid mob would spawn and they must forfeit it. Engaging the mob with a raid force if more than two representatives were present at the time of it's spawn will be a raid policy violation.

[Troubled]

This goes for planar clears as well? And clarification on around? Can a guild clear fear at west wall or hate at zone in if something's in window and pops, and be allowed to take a shot at it?

[Funkutron5000]

Gonna go ahead and bump this right about now.

[bktroost]

Wow, so the only way to get inny is to have 60 people on 5 minutes after he spawns in order to train everything to his room and nail him as quickly as possible. Gogo batphones/camped-out-buffed-at-wizzy-spire-alts.

[Rogean]

Wow, so the only way to get inny is to have 60 people on 5 minutes after he spawns in order to train everything to his room and nail him as quickly as possible. Gogo batphones/camped-out-buffed-at-wizzy-spire-alts.

Sounds legitimate to me. If you don't want to race then that's what Class R is for.

[Lostprophets]

This goes for planar clears as well? And clarification on around? Can a guild clear fear at west wall or hate at zone in if something's in window and pops, and be allowed to take a shot at it?

This is a great question Rogean...is this a go, or no go?

Some guilds do weekly clears 1-2 times a week of hate or fear to get armor for people (yes some people still need hate/fear gear)...if it happened to spawn during one of their weekly clears is it hands off even though it's within their class teir?

[Barahir]

Is there a time limit on this? Say you have a group there on the pop and they don't engage but then nobody else engages for like an hour? I mean that's more than enough time for pretty much all guilds to mobilize

[phiren]

I would REALLY like to see Rogean's thoughts on the situation... none of us want to get banned or break any rules. I assure you these situations are legitimate concerns for most of the class R guilds, simply because most of the Class R guilds still do Hate / Fear trash clears for loots.

So let's say:
#1) Azure Guard is clearing Fear trash & Draco pops.
--Can we leave the zone and come back in at least?

We don't want to get banned, but we would like to not be stressed out. If Draco is in window, it's one thing. We know when it's in window and can easily avoid that if necessary. But if you guys do a simulated patch respawn (Which aren't announced and are random) ... it seems terribly unfair to ban us for being in the zone at the time of it.

I would totally be fine if the rule was something like:
"You need to leave the zone and come back in and you will be ok"

..but even Ambrotos seemed unsure that would prevent us from being banned.

~Phiren
Azure Guard

[Sirken]

This is a great question Rogean...is this a go, or no go?
Some guilds do weekly clears 1-2 times a week of hate or fear to get armor for people (yes some people still need hate/fear gear)...if it happened to spawn during one of their weekly clears is it hands off even though it's within their class teir?
I would REALLY like to see Rogean's thoughts on the situation... none of us want to get banned or break any rules. I assure you these situations are legitimate concerns for most of the class R guilds, simply because most of the Class R guilds still do Hate / Fear trash clears for loots.

So let's say:
#1) Azure Guard is clearing Fear trash & Draco pops.
--Can we leave the zone and come back in at least?

We don't want to get banned, but we would like to not be stressed out. If Draco is in window, it's one thing. We know when it's in window and can easily avoid that if necessary. But if you guys do a simulated patch respawn (Which aren't announced and are random) ... it seems terribly unfair to ban us for being in the zone at the time of it.

I would totally be fine if the rule was something like:
"You need to leave the zone and come back in and you will be ok"

..but even Ambrotos seemed unsure that would prevent us from being banned.

~Phiren
Azure Guard
Hi Guys! Assuming you mean for FFA since ClassR is essentially a rotation. Based what what Rogean says below in the quoted text from this thread, it's my understanding that if you are in the zone when the raid mob pops, then you are no longer allowed to engage that raid mob. if a guild ignores that and engages anyway, then they are violating the Raid Policy. as far as i know, repops will happen after a broadcast or server message of sorts. ill ask Rogean to poke his head in this thread.


There have been some questions about the rule regarding the limit on representatives at raid spawn, and situations like groups clearing Tola/Prot, for example.

The staff has decided that the rule will be enforced such as, if there are more than 2 representatives present at a raid target when the target spawns, that guild may make no attempt to engage that mob.

This means guilds are okay to clear trash mobs around a raid spawn without the risk of a raid policy violation, however they take the chance that the raid mob would spawn and they must forfeit it. Engaging the mob with a raid force if more than two representatives were present at the time of it's spawn will be a raid policy violation.

[Jesseca]

Hi Guys! Assuming you mean for FFA since ClassR is essentially a rotation.

For example: Draco is Class R and Azure Guard is up for this mob. It is ok for us to be clearing fear when he spawns and then take him down? Same with Hate on Inny and Maestro?

[Troubled]

For example: Draco is Class R and Azure Guard is up for this mob. It is ok for us to be clearing fear when he spawns and then take him down? Same with Hate on Inny and Maestro?

No. Server rules > player made agreements.

Class R qualified entities outside the player agreement can and will dispute a planar clear leading to a boss kill on a class R mob.

[Sirken]

For example: Draco is Class R and Azure Guard is up for this mob. It is ok for us to be clearing fear when he spawns and then take him down? Same with Hate on Inny and Maestro?

so heres the slippery slope. firstly its important to note that technically Class R's rotation is a player created/enforced policy.

so if Draco was Class R and it was AGs turn to kill Draco (as per the aforementioned player created/enforced rotation), and AG was clearing trash in PoF ahead of time, i would be fine with that. the reason being since it's AGs turn, they arent gaining an advantage simply because there's no one else competing for the target.

However with that said, i can foresee where problems could arise if there were Class R guilds that either disagreed with (or broke away from) that rotation, since at that point if AG was clearing the trash and draco spawned, it would be the exact same thing as a Class C guild trying to do juggs/tola so that they could have an advantage taking down trakanon, and that would most certainly qualify as a violation of the p99 Raid Policy.

[Striiker]

The window is only 16 hours long. If you are up in the Class R rotation for a mob or want a shot at a FFA mob, just stay out of that zone for the 16 hours. It avoids any potential for problems, rule lawyering and GM involvement. Do what you need to have your guild ready for the call and mobilize when the target pops. Keep it simple and stay out of zones which contain the mobs you want for that short period of time. The rest of the time, raid to your heart's content!

[phiren]

So -- I'm totally with you on the "Window Avoidance". There is absolutely no justification for HAVING to do Juggs / Fear / Hate during a window of a mob you want to kill. That is blatantly poopsocking.

However, my concern is during Simulated Patch Respawns.

What if Taken is clearing Hate on a Monday afternoon... Maestro + Inny are both FFA and not in window for 3 days. CLEARLY you are not poopsocking.

Insert Simulated Patch Respawn (Not known to ANYONE in advance except maybe the GMs)

Why are you guys now banned from Inny / Maestro? Surely you should be allowed to at least port out / port in and be good.

Or maybe the 'rule' should be that you can't engage for 30 minutes? 1 hour?

I would say you should be allowed to kill Inny / Maestro... but only under one of the following conditions:
A) Port out / port back in
B) Wait 30 minutes
C) Wait 1 hour

~Phiren

[Splorf22]

So -- I'm totally with you on the "Window Avoidance". There is absolutely no justification for HAVING to do Juggs / Fear / Hate during a window of a mob you want to kill. That is blatantly poopsocking.

However, my concern is during Simulated Patch Respawns.

This is basically my position as well.

[Striiker]

In my opinion, I would consider it to be within the spirit of the anti-poopsock rules and competition to be allowed to engage the target provided you port out and back into the zone (in Hate for example). Yes, since you have a raid force already on line you have a slight advantage over others but that's hardly against the spirit or intent of the rules.
Really, the idea is to have essentially even starting ground for the targets which is generally held as being at least one zone away. (at the zone line into the zone or 1 port away (into Hate or Sky Fire for example)). If members of a guild are in the zone with a FFA target during a simulated re-pop, they should exit the zone and then re-enter (i.e. players in KC and a simulated re-pop fires off with a FFA VS up next.. They should haul ass to the zone line, exit and head back in.)
This I think would be acceptable.. The staff doesn't want to punish players and guilds for playing the game normally and so I don't think that this approach would be problematic.

[phiren]

When I specifically asked a GM about this situation in-game, they hinted that we would be suspended if we killed the mob. He didn't sound 110% sure that was the case though... which is why I'm asking here. I would like EVERYONE to know the 100% guaranteed official rule :)

So until Rogean / Sirken / crew comes out and specifically says this is ok... if you are in Hate / Fear / Seb / KC when there is a simulated patch spawn... you will be banned for killing the mob.



~Phiren

[Artaenc]

How about if we were killing fire giants/tranix/exp/Efreeti/zordak with characters lvl 53-60 and simulated patch respawn occurs? If we had our lvl 52 and below outside of sol B would we forfeit from killing naggy if it's FFA? I know that the high levels can buff the low levels so it wouldn't be right to use those higher lvl characters at that point.

[bktroost]

Well that really brings up a whole other issue. If another guild sends bards to be part of our dragon groups for the Resist songs but never engage the dragon themselves will that guild get the the tag for killing the mob. I personally don't see why GMs would want to participate in guilds working together so long as it doesn't involve actual dpsing/tank/healing. Just makes the server get along better =-)

[Erati]

How about if we were killing fire giants/tranix/exp/Efreeti/zordak with characters lvl 53-60 and simulated patch respawn occurs? If we had our lvl 52 and below outside of sol B would we forfeit from killing naggy if it's FFA? I know that the high levels can buff the low levels so it wouldn't be right to use those higher lvl characters at that point.

currently this is the murkiest part of new raid rules: in a raid target zone and an earthquake occurs.

Most have said .. if ur interested in the mob that spawns in the zone ur in, u must exit and re-enter it. The earthquake gives u 2 min to do so.

I cant comment much further in that respect as I think most guilds are still figuring out what is deemed "fair play/play nice" when earthquakes happen and ur alrdy raiding/in raid zone


hope that helps

[Yaolin]

These seem to be the consensus so far.....

Regular Pop

Hate/Fear/VS ~ Don't be in the zone when the mobs pop

Faydedar ~ Ogre Island

Gorenaire ~ Druid Ring/Inside KC/FV ZL

Severilous ~ Druid Evac/TT ZL

Talendor ~ OT or BW ZLs

Trakanon ~ First floor, no one in basement.

Repop

GTFO out of the zone in two minutes or your forfeit the mob. Only so many mobs are in FFA at any given time, we all can see which ones they are. If you want to hit that mob then it might just be best to avoid the zone unless you feel like having a port in every group ready to go.

[Artaenc]

These seem to be the consensus so far.....

Regular Pop

Hate/Fear/VS ~ Don't be in the zone when the mobs pop

Faydedar ~ Ogre Island

Gorenaire ~ Druid Ring/Inside KC/FV ZL

Severilous ~ Druid Evac/TT ZL

Talendor ~ OT or BW ZLs

Trakanon ~ First floor, no one in basement.

Repop

GTFO out of the zone in two minutes or your forfeit the mob. Only so many mobs are in FFA at any given time, we all can see which ones they are. If you want to hit that mob then it might just be best to avoid the zone unless you feel like having a port in every group ready to go.

Thanks, this is what I was looking for I hope this is blessed by the suspension committee/server staff.

[quido]

That all looks good to me except for VS - KC zone-in is legit imo.

[Ella`Ella]

I'd like to amend VS so that you cannot have a presence of any sort in the pit where VS spawns. The exp for two people to duo is inconsequential to make an argument on behalf of "leveling" and a druid/ranger can track VS from zone in. This would alleviate any of the grey area we've been seeing regarding potential stalling, etc...

[Snackies]

That all looks good to me except for VS - KC zone-in is legit imo.

Agreed.

One other change I'd suggest is that for Gore being at the KC zone line in DL is acceptable.

Nobody really waits around for Gore and I'd say most raid-capable casters are bound there. Seems like something silly to potentially split hairs on if a number of folks just happen to gate there and it pops.

[Powtle]

Hey Unbrella and Snackies, while you're on the forum could you drop on the Noble Dojorn thread please?
Less appealing maybe.

[Erati]

I'd like to amend VS so that you cannot have a presence of any sort in the pit where VS spawns. The exp for two people to duo is inconsequential to make an argument on behalf of "leveling" and a druid/ranger can track VS from zone in. This would alleviate any of the grey area we've been seeing regarding potential stalling, etc...

I like where this is goin.... could we get some traction on this suggestion ?

It keeps competition in line with the Dev's vision: a mobilzation race.