Dragon fear

[bigshowtime]

Lands 75% with 400+ MR

This ain't classic

[bigshowtime]

Bump

[Byrjun]

Mob level is factored too highly when it comes to resists. It's very difficult to resist a spell/ae from a level 70 dragon, even if you have crazy high resists. Additionally, it's nearly impossible to land a spell on level 70 mobs. You can notice a huge difference between level 63 and level 70 encounters. This is why resists feel so off in Velious, mob level is higher.

[wycca]

Resist system seems to work pretty well up until -1 levels. On even con's its probably ok, but yellows is where it starts breaking down. You can see this in HoT and on Kunark dragons - where 200 resist was considered (look at a number of 2001/2002 era Alla's comments) what made stuff regularly resistable. Remember, 255 was the cap then! We can hit 255 without a bard easily. The problem is that on 60-62 mobs, it's closer to mid 300ish or more.

Then there's lvl 63 mobs, where I haven't resisted a single Trak ae despite having 400-450 PR for every engagement.

The system breaks down starting with yellow mobs, and then flat falls on its face with red mobs. As you scale up in mob level (Velious mobs max out at 70 instead of the 63 in Kunark), it just becomes impossible to resist.

This will, quite literally, turn mobs with AE fear like Klandicar, a mob killable with around 30 people using the right strats, into a mob that probably can't be downed with 60+.

[Scrubosaur]

Spell resists used to be broke down two categories; PC level vs NPC resist check and then PC resist numbers vs mob level / spell type. There should be an innate resist level for a PC vs NPCs depending on the level difference. I don't believe that is working on p99 as green mobs can nuke you down if your resist for that type of spell are low (like cold shaman nukes) regardless of the level difference. Resists gearing is/was/should make the difference vs higher level, even con, blue mobs within 5 levels. If that aspect of resists is not working than it might as well be a /random 100 to determine if you get hit by a spell.

[Victorio]

This pertains to both the Sontalak thread where it is mentioned that someone should look into his fear (as it was described as "weak" fear) as well as what's been mentioned in the Klandicar threads and possible upcoming Zlandicar thread (unless I've missed it.) The fact is that there are two separate versions of Dragon Roar, one has a -150 MR component and one does not have this component. This separates the "strong" and "weak" fears that we people from the era talk about.

So let's start with this golden nugget of a thread about Klandicar:
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15877

First question: what kind of resists does it take to completely resist his AE? We're not having any trouble with fear, but the AE is tearing us up.

Originally posted by Tynne
The fear is -150 magic resistIm not so sure. I went ahead and checked Lucy for Dragon Roar and found 2 of them - http://lucy.fnord.net/spelllist.html...xt=dragon+roar

I think Kland's is the one without the -150 adjustment. His fear barely ever hit me with ~200 MR. But when we did Gorenaire just like 3 months ago, most of her fears hit me, with ~250 MR. I think the kunark dragons have the -150 adjustment one

Well, your already ubah in my eyes. My guild's first try we had 30 people with an average level of 57, got smoked. Not enough DPS and lot's of lower levels getting hammered by the AE fear. I was the only healer healing for 20 seconds after the fear every time. We got him the next morning with 28 average level of 59,I wasn't there for the second run.

Debuffs are key on Klandicar. Although the only slows I remember having landed on him were from melee range. Once debuffed and slowed he's pretty easy. Although we do him with 20ish toons(I am from a lvl 55-65 guild). I dont think there is much neg resist on his fear btw as my ranger usually resists them with 200ish mr. Good luck.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note, if you search lucy today, you see the two dragon roars, at -150 and 0 resist adjust, as well as the fabled dragon roar with -275.
http://lucy.fnord.net/spelllist.html?searchtext=dragon+roar
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's another thread, this time about Zlandicar: (Nov 02)

http://thesteelwarrior.yuku.com/topic/1353/Zlandicar#.U7o3m_ldV5c

Did a search and went back about 15pages, didn't find anything too helpful.

Just would like some tips on dealing with him.

current info, please correct if not right:
Not many hp for a brood dragon, 80k?
Procs a melee DD?
Slowable
Fear is easier to resist than others?
AoE?
poision and disease?
Doesn't see invis
is alone in his room past the waterfall?
Fun fight? i'd like to get my guild doing the dragons of this level more often than we do now.
would 4 groups be ok for a first time?

thanks in advance, appreciate any help


Responses:
Fear is easier to resist than others?
Hmmm I'd say yes, never been feared by him myself.

Fear is easier to resist than others?
I don't recall the fear being much different than the other ST dragons.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Exactly, it wasn't different than the ST dragons, Zlandicar Fear = Klandicar fear = Sontalak Fear.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another Thread about Zlandicar:
http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3900
Zlandicar resists?

Just a quickie, lots of debate on this.. For Zlandicar buff poison or disease?

I know, I know, his AE is weak anyway, but was trying to do it with true minimum force.. buff poison or disease? Tired of doing both.


Killed him and we went DR the whole way back when I was 60. Very few AE's landed, many reported the same thing. It's not like I was maxed PR at the time

Disease and magic. 200 disease resist at level 65 will insure that at most one or two AE dots stick on you (if any) the whole fight (and they aren't very damaging and are curable).

Magic because he AE fears. His fear is also easily resisted as well, 200 MR should more than do the trick.

He's a necro, so he might cast a poison dot or dd on whoever has aggro, but I don't think it's worth the trouble to buff up PR.

There's a lot more stuff you can find, but that's just a few things. As I mentioned in the other thread, I fought these guys during Velious. My server (Sullon Zek) had been opened up not long after Velious went live, so we did not even have time to farm Kunark gear and we were not all 60s when we started to do these Velious encounters. We were certainly doing far, far worse on resists than the characters we're now beta testing Velious with, and definitely worse than beta buffed characters. Still, it was always the case that once you got to lvl 60 and 200+ MR, you were safe from the dragon roars in Velious.

If one is wondering "man, why would they nerf the dragon roar from -150 MR to 0 MR" ? Well, because they were upping the dragon level to 70 while players were still at lvl 60 (and they were also dramatically increasing their HP.) Whereas the purpose of Dragon Roar during Kunark was to cut down on the number of attacking players to help protect a 32khp mob's precious hitpoints, its purpose changed during Velious so that it became a regular, manageable aspect of a dragon fight. Basically, get your guild to 60, get decent MR (200+ with or without a bard), and you'd be fine. The challenge came in sustaining your guild over time against various different AEs, etc.

[Victorio]

And if someone wants to make a storm about someone saying they were 65 in a previous quoted post, here's another post from Allakhazam from Apr 2001 regarding Zlandicar:

Can take this dragon out with about 30people that's lvl 59+, you need dr and mr buffs, keep dragon in center of lair, do all the debuffing quickly and have one main warrior lvl 60 try to get agro with all healers healing him for the first 5sec than all charge.....make sure everyone stands around him so you're not pushing him off to one side......

The hardest part is to have enough mana for heals cause his dot is bad, shouldn't be a problem if you have over 200 dr and 200mr for the fear.

Same story, again and again.

[Victorio]

Here's a nice video showing a Klandicar fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLIvMBwaPCI

This video is from a progression guild on live.

http://thefacelessorder.com/

As they state in their rules:

2. As a progression guild The Faceless Order prohibits its members from using items or gear during raids that would not exist or be available in the expansion which The Faceless Order is currently in.

5. Characters can join the guild at any level, but must be era appropriate level to attend a raid.

You can see the guy taking the video is a lvl 60 monk with 179 MR w/o bard song and 316 MR with bard song. He resists both Klandicar AEs. Look at the other members of the raid - a number of them get feared, but they're in the minority (and probably don't have bards.)

[Victorio]

Here's another video from this progression guild fighting Zlandicar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KKacueAJVI

Monk is a lvl 60 with 212 MR. Gets feared once when pulling, at ~15s, resists fear around 1 min mark, resists fear again at 1 min 45s, resists fear again at 2:20.
2:25 he's looting you see his MR is 212 and he does not have a bard resist song playing through the video. So yeah, 3/4 fear resisist on Zland with 212 MR at lvl 60.

[Victorio]

Yet another video from the progression guild. Same player from the other videos (I'm assuming he's the guild leader since he's directing raid in rchat and on vent and looting the corpses in all 3 videos).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2Vb8b6pHlM

He is fighting Sontalak at lvl 60. Resists fear at 15 s, resists fear at 51 s, resists fear at 1:28.

You can see at the end of the video (1:54 - 2:00) that he has 358 MR when he loots the corpse (with both bard songs up plus some other spell), 312 MR with the two bard songs. So yeah, when you add this to the zlandicar and klandicar videos we see that at lvl 60:

Klandi - 312 MR : 2/2 Fear Resists
Zlandi - 212 MR : 3/4 Fear Resists
Sontalak - 358 MR : 3/3 Fear Resists

[Victorio]

Same guy at lvl 60 fighting Gorenaire (with Kunark gear)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXES0EuSoLo

Feared by Gorenaire at 0:35 (no bard songs up) he has 190 MR when wearing the resist shield. Drops his shield, goes to 170 MR. Feared again at 0:58 (no bard song, 170 MR.) Gets a bard song on but gets feared again at 1:25 . At 2:01 he's looting Gore and you can see his MR is 247 when he has the bard song up. (And still got feared.)

Lvl 60 vs. Gorenaire (lvl 60):
170 MR - feared, 190 MR - feared, 247 MR - feared.

Gore 10 levels lower than Zlandi, against whom the guy resisted 3/4 fears with 212 MR, yet he got feared with 190 and 247 MR on Gore. Why? The Zlandi fear (and Klandi and Sontalak) don't have -150 MR mod on them.

[Orruar]

It should also be noted that this affects players trying to cast on these mobs as well.

We were playing with Klandi and with tash/malo/OoS up (~ -120 to MR), we couldn't land slow in what must have been 25+ attempts. We also tried about a half dozen attempts with druid swarm dot (additional -100 to MR) and still had no luck. A necro could land a lifetap dot (Vampiric Curse, -200 to MR). So it's not that he's completely immune, but it's just quite a bit off. I remember rushing in and engaging and the shamans would get him slowed within 24 seconds. As it stands now, you'd need like 30 shaman to have a chance at that feat, maybe.

[Ambrotos]

Also keep in mind bards were able to stack tash from tishan orb unlike here. Could prolly still use adjustments, but stuff done on live had more elements during raids than here. If that mechanic was put in to the game, things will seem more along the lines as the resist rate on live.

[Orruar]

Also keep in mind bards were able to stack tash from tishan orb unlike here. Could prolly still use adjustments, but stuff done on live had more elements during raids than here. If that mechanic was put in to the game, things will seem more along the lines as the resist rate on live.

Yeah, we were going to report that as well (tishan orb stacking not working). Keep in mind though that orb of tishan is only -33MR. We couldn't even land a -100 resist adjust druid dot, so that extra orb of tishan isn't going to help land slow (which has no resist adjust).

[Victorio]

Yes, the level disparity mods are too great (in addition to the fear resist adjust.) Right now you have 400 MR being consistently feared with a -150 MR check on the fear. If you take off that -150 on the check, then 250 MR will perform like 400 MR does right now. However, that means even with 250 MR you'll be consistently feared, which should not be the case. Thus the level mod needs to be adjusted, which will also fix the slow landing issues.

[Ikonoclastia]

Spell resists used to be broke down two categories; PC level vs NPC resist check and then PC resist numbers vs mob level / spell type. There should be an innate resist level for a PC vs NPCs depending on the level difference. I don't believe that is working on p99 as green mobs can nuke you down if your resist for that type of spell are low (like cold shaman nukes) regardless of the level difference. Resists gearing is/was/should make the difference vs higher level, even con, blue mobs within 5 levels. If that aspect of resists is not working than it might as well be a /random 100 to determine if you get hit by a spell.
------------------------------
June 12, 2002
------------------------------

** NPC Spell Caster Changes **

- NPCs are now bound by spell casting distance rules, meaning that an
NPC's spell will no longer connect from halfway across the zone
- NPCs now have a chance to be interrupted by normal combat when
casting newer spells
- NPCs that are much lower level than their target have had their
potential casting damage reduced using a similar mechanic to the one
that player characters' level differences use
- NPC Wizards no longer have an inherent bonus to their fire and cold
based spells
- Most NPCs that had previously had their spellcasting level inflated
to make up for poor spell selection have been brought back into line
with their actual level
- NPCs no longer automatically get free access to rarely dropped
spells, such as Garrison's Superior Sundering and Funeral Pyre of
Kelador.

[Orruar]

Were any changes made to mob resists in the last 2 weeks? We went to HoT tonight and couldn't get slow to land on a white wurm. Attempted maybe 20+ slows with tash/malo/oos up to no avail. We were able to slow the same mobs a couple weeks ago.

[R Flair]

The issue is definitely more the slow than the fear. I remember in my junk kunark gear being feared by Klandicar at times, but here i was able to resist a lot of the fears with 190 unbuffed + gmr + bards. Seems in line.

The real issue is the fact that on live slowing these mobs was not that big of an issue. You dropped your tash, unresistable malo, normal malo and maybe an occlusion and slow hit. The process usually took less than 20 seconds. Here we debuff and spam slows for a minute straight before were eventually slaughtered.

His HP isnt high at all, make sure your melees disc early. Once he gets slowed (isnt hard with tash/oos/malo), 1 cleric can heal MT, rest can heal vs AE till the mob is dead. He isnt too tough of a mob, though if you lack DPS its a lot harder.
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showpost.php?p=99320&postcount=4

Thread full of info about slowing Kland. Never is it eluded to that its at all hard once he is properly debuffed.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10980

[Nirgon]

bards were able to stack tash from tishan orb unlike here.

It is quite a difference too

[wycca]

The issue is definitely more the slow than the fear. I remember in my junk kunark gear being feared by Klandicar at times, but here i was able to resist a lot of the fears with 190 unbuffed + gmr + bards. Seems in line.

The real issue is the fact that on live slowing these mobs was not that big of an issue. You dropped your tash, unresistable malo, normal malo and maybe an occlusion and slow hit. The process usually took less than 20 seconds. Here we debuff and spam slows for a minute straight before were eventually slaughtered.


http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showpost.php?p=99320&postcount=4

Thread full of info about slowing Kland. Never is it eluded to that its at all hard once he is properly debuffed.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10980

Yea so, you do realize that resists in Velious were capped at 255? You're talking over 450 in resists there. *Not Classic*

Level change may have made it more resistable (if it went in), but it was a fluke to resist it with 420ish MR two weeks ago.

I'm still not getting why people are saying - I resisted it some with 300/400 or ANYTHING OVER 255 - and thinking this is balanced like classic at all - because it's not.

200 in resists - you can see this ALL OVER classic posts, from HoT mobs to dragons, was considered what was necessary to be safe in 2001/2002. Everyone and their brother gets well over 200 easily on this server because we've had 5 years of farming to make resist sets commonplace, but the resists on p99 are just not in line with classic raiding on yellow cons and are steadily worse as mob level goes 63+.

You cannot resist was what resistable on live with 200 when you have 300/400/500 in resists on p99. The resist system just fundamentally breaks down starting around 60 and up. Nex in VP has the same AE as a warder in ST - we got to experience how fun resisting that was when the mob casting it is even higher level (read, you don't resist it even with a bard). Klandicar is another great example, so is Sontalak, and any wide variety of mobs with AE's in Velious. Kland/Sont are just particularly noteworthy examples because their AE's are outdoors, but the base problem is still there - resists on p99 aren't classic and it's going to be very difficult to do certain Velious mobs without a resist system that is closer to the intended difficulty levels.

[bigshowtime]

Yea so, you do realize that resists in Velious were capped at 255? You're talking over 450 in resists there. *Not Classic.

Stopped reading

[Nirgon]

Take yo time tweaking/fixing.

Rather have it right and later than wrong and earlier.

Haste makes waste! Ignore the "wipe it now" / "just launch it already" people all the same!

[wycca]

Take yo time tweaking/fixing.

Rather have it right and later than wrong and earlier.

Haste makes waste! Ignore the "wipe it now" / "just launch it already" people all the same!

/agree
It's going to take a ton of testing to make sure things work properly, and I'd rather test 10 different revisions of Kland or the resist system than have it go live wrong. We got plenty of time and we're here 2 nights a week until launch.

[Daldaen]

After seeing Klandicar last night, I think there is no better proof that we need a 255 resist cap than that.

Getting 255 cap and tuning around it should be way more important than tuning with 350-450 resists. If you want to tune it to make it such that resist scale up in effectiveness beyond 255, you are putting an undue importance on resist gear and bards, making the gearing and group structure/song choice very unclassic. Clerics shouldn't have to sacrifice all these slots of WIS/mana gear in exchange for full MR. They should pick and choose a few good MR pieces to get up to 255 with buffs and such. But they shouldn't be swapping out 9/10 pieces of gear for any fight.

[khanable]

Bump, Zlandicar's fear is a penis

425MR, got shit on by fear, had to drop ~350hp to get that high too!

[Man0warr]

Wuoshi's was just as bad.

Zlandicar's Stun Breath hit almost every time with 380ish MR. Compared to Wuoshi's AE poison which I resisted every time with a bard.

[Alunova]

Dragon Fear has a very high negative resist mod. You can still see it here: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=789

This would have been even harder to resist in classic, -150 is more detrimental to a 255 cap than it would be to a 500 cap.

I'd also like to point out that as a non-tank the only mob I ever remember eating fear from was Klandicar later on when he was rooted.

I'm looking into the stun breath

#velioustactics

[Man0warr]

Dragon Fear has a very high negative resist mod. You can still see it here: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=789

This would have been even harder to resist in classic, -150 is more detrimental to a 255 cap than it would be to a 500 cap.

I'd also like to point out that as a non-tank the only mob I ever remember eating fear from was Klandicar later on when he was rooted.

I'm looking into the stun breath

#velioustactics

You should look more closely at your sources:

2002-08-22 10:10 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -200
2002-09-03 22:22 Changed Resistadj from -200 to -150

Which means post Luclin is when the resist adjust was added, after resist cap went up to 500.

Prior to that it had no resist modifier. I can't believe no one has pointed that out on this server yet - Dragon Fear is way too hard to resist on this server, it just hasn't affected anyone because everything has 32k hp.

[Alunova]

You should look more closely at your sources:

2002-08-22 10:10 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -200
2002-09-03 22:22 Changed Resistadj from -200 to -150

Which means post Luclin is when the resist adjust was added, after resist cap went up to 500.

Prior to that it had no resist modifier. I can't believe no one has pointed that out on this server yet - Dragon Fear is way too hard to resist on this server, it just hasn't affected anyone because everything has 32k hp.

I don't see either of those on the page I linked:

2002-09-04 11:33 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -150
2002-09-04 11:33 Removed Slot 1: Lure(6)

[Raden]

the 8-22 and 9-03 changes are from the test server changes.
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=789&source=Test

9-04 live change was the actual patch where resists were changed.
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=789&source=Live

So you're both right

Patch notes here.
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020904.html

So Resists should go back to the old cap of 255 and take the resists mods away. Not classic to have to stack so much resists.

[Alunova]

the 8-22 and 9-03 changes are from the test server changes.
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=789&source=Test

9-04 live change was the actual patch where resists were changed.
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=789&source=Live

So you're both right

Patch notes here.
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020904.html

So Resists should go back to the old cap of 255 and take the resists mods away. Not classic to have to stack so much resists.

What about:
2002-08-22 10:10 Removed Slot 1: Lure(6)

I believe this is where they changed how the spellfile itself worked. It looks like Dragon roar already had a lure component, which was switched to an actual value with the new system.

Trilogy client spell file:

789^Dragon Roar^PLAYER_1^^^ lets loose a mighty roar.^You flee in terror.^^You are no longer afraid.^0^300^0^0^0^0^36000^7^3^0^0^-6^1^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^400^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^ 2507^2116^-1^-1^-1^-1^1^1^1^1^-1^-1^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^ 0^0^0^1^10^23^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^ 254^4^0^52^-1^0^0^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61 ^43^13^0^13^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^10 0^0^154^0

Compare this to Rain of Cold with a -100 resist check:

Lucy:
2002-09-04 11:33 Removed Slot 1: Lure(4)
2002-09-04 11:33 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -100

Trilogy client spell file:

1487^Rain of Cold^PLAYER_1^^^Calls forth a circle of frozen shards above you.^Frozen shards slice into your skin.^^^150^300^0^0^0^0^12000^0^0^7500^0^-4^-300^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^25 15^2063^-1^-1^-1^-1^1^1^1^1^-1^-1^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^ 0^0^0^3^10^0^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^2 54^4^0^24^-1^0^0^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61 ^44^13^0^3^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^100 ^0^116^0

The lure component existed before the lucy change, it just changed forms.

It would make sense that it is using a 25 multiplier, -100 = -4 and -150 = -6

[Alunova]

Also, this is interesting change in 2002, well after Velious

Higher level PCs will be more resistant to lower level NPCs' spells.
Increased the number of spells that can be in effect on a given NPC to 30.
The hard level limit involving players casting on NPCs has been removed. This used to be referred to in EQ folklore as the "Six Level Limit" (It was actually 1.25 times the caster's level, but more people likely thought about it the other way.) This means that in the vast majority of cases, there is at least a small chance that a person will be able to connect a spell with an NPC, even if they are out of that NPC's traditional level range.

[khanable]

No matter how much tuning you guys do, having to stack resists up to 500 is just nuts, and I'd wager borderline impossible to get two resists simultaneously above 400 for most classes.

No bard (preferably with epic), no chance

[Nirgon]

Real talk for a sec? How bad/difficult is making the "cap is 255" change here? Can you just cap it at 255 but the client side displays more? With a disclaimer to the community that btw resists over 255 no longer count higher?

I will take a non answer as "we don't know". And dat's kew, np, ain't rustled.

[Zaela]

int16 Client::GetMaxResist() const
{
int level = GetLevel();

int16 base = 500; <--- change this number

if(level > 60)
base += ((level - 60) * 5);

return base;
}

No particular reason the server would need to care what your client says your resists are. (It technically doesn't, they both calculate the numbers independently.) But it's nice to have things in sync, obviously.

[Daldaen]

Agreeing with khanable and Nirgon here.

Having to balance your resists against a 500 cap, with Velious gear, which was designed with a 255 cap, is very annoying.

In classic you would devote about half your slots to resists while the other half you got your core stats / HP/Mana up. On P99 to have any chance to resist these AEs you're having to swap nearly every single slot. If you are only switching half here and getting to 150~ unbuffed, you are getting crushed by AEs.

It puts a very unnecessary and unclassic focus on bard Resists and on resist gear in general. Bards were nice on raids cause you could put them with MTs and DPS so that they could keep stacking their HP without sacrificing much for resists.

Tl;dr - Not having a 255 cap and AEs scales against it is the greatest threat to P1999.

[arsenalpow]

I had a boxed bard for the encounter and was pushing close to 400MR and it was still a coin flip to resist the fear and it would last foreverrrrrrr.

[Daldaen]

Didn't classic have resists displaying over 255, but they weren't effective?

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/images/shadoz.jpg

[Man0warr]

Seems like an easy change - change resist cap to 255 and remove all the unclassic resist mods.

As it is, guilds will need a bard for every group to kill Velious dragons.

[Raden]

Even if you didn't want to, or can't, recreate the old lure system, you can simply cap resists at 255 and cut all the resist mods in the game atm in half. It would basically magic bullet the whole issue of having to stack resists past 255.

[Alunova]

Even if you didn't want to, or can't, recreate the old lure system, you can simply cap resists at 255 and cut all the resist mods in the game atm in half. It would basically magic bullet the whole issue of having to stack resists past 255.

Are you volunteering to go through 2999 spells(trilogy) to rebalance the resist mods individually or are you talking about rebalancing the resist calculations themselves?

If we simply cut the resist cap to 255 it would not solve anything. No one would resist anything a higher level NPC casted.

[khanable]

I'll go through 2999 spells if it means more classic :D

[Man0warr]

Are you volunteering to go through 2999 spells(trilogy) to rebalance the resist mods individually or are you talking about rebalancing the resist calculations themselves?

If we simply cut the resist cap to 255 it would not solve anything. No one would resist anything a higher level NPC casted.

Why all 3000 spells? This is about Dragon fear, which has already been shown not to have a resist modifier in Kunark/Velious.

[Daldaen]

The whole system is tuned against a 500 cap I think.

Removing the -100 checks on AEs would be a start, but it certainly wouldn't be a cure all.

[Alunova]

Why all 3000 spells? This is about Dragon fear, which has already been shown not to have a resist modifier in Kunark/Velious.

Where has this been shown?

They removed a lure component when they added the value based resist check.

[Nirgon]

Fear was EASY to resist.

Invoke fear landed SLIGHTLY more and held better.

Dragon roar was HARD to resist.

Tell me that there was no underlying modifier.

[Man0warr]

Where has this been shown?

They removed a lure component when they added the value based resist check.

Okay? Do you actually know what the Lure(6) component actually does or are you just guessing? All I'm saying is they shouldn't have -150 resist adjust right now in the timeline.

Watch that video above of the Zlandicar fight on classic Live - the PoV guy has no bard in his group and yet he gets feared very little, and when he does it lasts for just seconds. In fact most the people in his field of vision aren't getting feared at all.

He also doesn't get the Stun Breath proc off at all, as it's supposed to be interrupt-able.

You have 50 people in this thread telling you from experience that the fears are hitting too often and lasting for full durations no matter what magic resist - all you have to do is compare that video from what you saw last night and see they were two completely different experiences.

[Alunova]

He also doesn't get the Stun Breath proc off at all, as it's supposed to be interrupt-able.


Because of this?

Mana: 0 Casting Time: Instant
Recast Time: 12 Fizzle Time: 0
Resist: Magic Range: 300
Location: Any Time of Day: Any
AE Duration: 5 AE Range: 200
Interruptable: Yes Target Type: Targeted AE
Spell Type: Detrimental Category: NPC
Source: Live 07/15

It's a placeholder field. Zlandicar usually casts necro spells, which I haven't added yet, which is what is likely being interrupted.

It's an instant cast spell which can be cast on a target up to 300 distance away, in which case it AoE's a range of 200 from that target. This does not mean it is actually possible to interrupt. It did not only hit a few tanks. When his target (the MT) is standign next to him, it's effectively a 200 range PBAOE.

[Man0warr]

No, because of the evidence in the video of him hardly getting Stun Breath off. Hard evidence, not going to go by some spell database on Allakhazam.

[Alunova]

Watch that video above of the Zlandicar fight on classic Live - the PoV guy has no bard in his group and yet he gets feared very little, and when he does it lasts for just seconds. In fact most the people in his field of vision aren't getting feared at all.


Are you even watching the same video?

1) This is Rising Acension, a known hardcore raid guild, you can pretty much count on them having 255 resists (in content that is balanced for 255 resists)

2) The entire raid got feared the first cast and it's hard to tell who got feared the other casts because the person taking the video was running feared in front of the other feared people being feared.

3) He cast fear 4 times, the person taking the video was feared every single time.

4) We know the resist cap needs to change, no one is arguing that, Velious bosses are being balanced to the current resist cap (actually a bit below, 350-400) so we can modify the way resists work without going back and editing individual spells or bosses.

4) Almost everyone gets hit by liquify every time, which is an unmodified AoE, they are stacking everything to MR.

5) I've posted logs at 372 mr resisting every single stun AoE with very short Fear durations in the rare case I got feared, if possible I would like to see the impact/value/behavior of 350ish MR applied at the 250 level before resist caps are capped.

6) Zlandicar is supposed to cast Necro spells with cast times that can be interrupted, these are not in right now because they complicate testing.

7) If we simply cap resists at 255 without making any other modifications, things would be far worse than they are now. Resisted an AoE with lure components (classic!) from a higher level NPC would be almost impossible.

8) I've decrypted enough of the velious spell file to be able to make comparisons: Lure of Lightening/Frost/Flame all had a -5 lure component. Dragon roar has a -6. Dragon roar has a higher negative resist modifier than player lures.

9) We are testing. We need time to go through this stuff. I understand the difficulty of stacking resists this high is not classic, however, that does not mean that you should be easily resisting a majority of these spells.

[wycca]

4) We know the resist cap needs to change, no one is arguing that, Velious bosses are being balanced to the current resist cap (actually a bit below, 350-400) so we can modify the way resists work without going back and editing individual spells or bosses.


Would you mind explaining this comment a bit?

PS - I thought Eashen was working fine, fear might be another beast though, but I don't have any recent runs to feel comfortable making a statement on.

[Alunova]

Would you mind explaining this comment a bit?

PS - I thought Eashen was working fine, fear might be another beast though, but I don't have any recent runs to feel comfortable making a statement on.

What I would like to see:
If cap was lowered to 255 you would resist the same amount as if you have 350-375 now. These are the results I feel, through testing, would be as accurate as can be expected while making the cap and the difficulty of reaching that cap classic.

I am not a source developer though, I cannot say if it's possible or if it will happen. All I can do is balance them in a uniform way so that if it does happen we do not have to re balance everything or change spell values.

We can see the spell values to a high extent, but we do not know how the classic resist code worked. If you have 1 + X = 2, you don't change the 1.

[wycca]

Thanks for explaining it.

We're in a tricky spot here though - it's the whole "difficulty of reaching that cap classic" - I don't think we have anything in game right now that isn't classic, although on live I never carried much more than 2x diamond rings and a set of blue diamond stuff around with me to mobs - so maybe it's just that we didn't need so much back then to be in a spot where resists were good enough. In fact, I'd say that 350-370 results is the old 200+ buffed/120 unbuffed sorta "feel" that I got from reading classic posts plus my own hazy memories.

I agree the 370 resists with a (0) modifier you're seeing are about what I expected for 255 resists. Not so sure about the -100/-150 modifier stuff though - altho your 250ish resists on eashen approximate what a 350ish person would have on a -100, not horrid. -150 might be another story though.

I am very concerned about stuff being too easy and us ending up with another Kunark situation. Absolute worst thing in the world is a bunch of people running around at 255 without a bard resisting most things. On the flip side you have what we see now and bards being required in most raid groups = a bad situation for guilds. Who knows, luckily we still have a bunch of beta left so there's time for all sorts of tweaks and for multiple runs on a mob in order to try to work with the resist system we have. I know my initial thought on Eashen was resists are broken, but our last run we made tweaks and the entire thing fell into place easily with 25 - we just needed a few runs to tweak.

[Raden]

Are you volunteering to go through 2999 spells(trilogy) to rebalance the resist mods individually or are you talking about rebalancing the resist calculations themselves?

If we simply cut the resist cap to 255 it would not solve anything. No one would resist anything a higher level NPC casted.

Well I can't see the p99 resist code so I'm not 100% sure what would be required to fix it but I could certainly plug away at 3000 spell files to change resist mods to fit the system. Honestly if you need any kind of help like that let me know.

[Nirgon]

Ya I agree it is a ton of spells but did you think at any point this would be a quick and easy change? Is there a way you could make a change like this live on beta and give a few people gm commands to just summon gear and spam themselves with spells? Maybe even the ability to summon mobs into arena because self spamming won't be accurate as we need it to come from an NPC with appropriate level difference?

If you parceled out the testing you turn it from 3000 spells or so to just 100 per person to test :). Some people have wanted this change for a long time and would help more than you think to grind out testing.

[Daldaen]

If given GM powers I'll leave self AFK overnight on beta to test various resist benchmarks against various raid mobs. 50-100-150-200-255 should be good ones to test I think?

[Nirgon]

U wanna hang out then? Hopefully they can do somethin' like dis.

[Zaela]

What I would like to see:
If cap was lowered to 255 you would resist the same amount as if you have 350-375 now. These are the results I feel, through testing, would be as accurate as can be expected while making the cap and the difficulty of reaching that cap classic.

I am not a source developer though, I cannot say if it's possible or if it will happen..

Should not be difficult to scale down the various factors/multipliers in the chance-to-resist function to make 255 generate the same chance to resist as X would now under the same circumstances. Except that you probably wouldn't want to scale resist adjusts down, so they would count for proportionally more. Would probably need more tweaking after that, of course, and might need to split client resist chance calculations from npc resist chance calculations if that's not already the case.

[Alunova]

might need to split client resist chance calculations from npc resist chance calculations if that's not already the case.

This is my main concern, we would have to rebalance pretty much every NPC in the game if they are not seperated due to the values we use for them.

[Skydash]

In the Rising Ascension video @ 2:52, there is a comment in the chat box that reads,

"He keeps stunning me lol"

So, his stun was working too. Just FYI

[Byrjun]

That prog video has no tash orb exploits (malo, tash, oos) and a slow is landed about 10-20 seconds after engage is called (most likely first, maybe second attempt). On velious beta you need several people chain slowing it and sometimes it won't even land before Zland is <50%. Same with Klandicar, Dagarn, Aaryonar, and every other slowable mob we've tested.

[Yinikren]

To be fair, I recall every single ToV guide I've ever read has said that anyone who wants to raid ToV should be at level 58+ and have 75+ unbuffed in their respective resist to have a decent shot at both landing and resisting spells. 75 unbuffed resists are kind of laughably easy to get.

[Nirgon]

More on fear being a bit harder on the higher level Velious dragons

From
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5491&p=3#comments

Wuoshi is harder than Severillous because he is a lvl 63/64 spawn not 60 and that makes the Dragon Roar and AoE Stun harder to resist


Should be obvious but if we're compiling info...

[Orruar]

PCs are resisting Klandi fear decently with 400+ MR, but it's still impossible to land slow on him. 50+ resists over 2 fights.

[wycca]

My honest opinion? Doz pre-change should be the starting point for MR tuning for every non-mega-MR velious raid mob of note. It was difficult to land slow on him, but not impossible, (same with other MR spells). Pre-change doz, not post-change. Doz's pre-change MR was pretty perfect, hard to land stuff, dicey until you did, rewarding when it finally landed, then it repeated when it was time to re-do debuffs. This is what I expect from Velious raid mobs, not the insaneo MR on Kland/Zland or the post-change Doz's MR buff levels (which is a bit too high).

[Alunova]

Doz was not changed

[Nirgon]

I got a fresh new pair of pants to ruin when bard stacking drops.

Not to be confused with the pants I will ruin in Velious.