Cancel magic change?

[Pringles]

Was there a change in Velious to cancel magic? Ive searched and didnt see anything. It doesnt seem to be getting "top slot" spells on beta? I first noticed this on phase spiders in DN, then i simplified it with a scarab in North Ro since phase spiders are a bit odd.

Here is what is happening on beta:

[Mon Nov 24 14:39:31 2014] a sand scarab glowers at you dubiously -- You could probably win this fight.
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:00 2014] You begin casting Enthrall.
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:02 2014] A sand scarab has been enthralled.
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:06 2014] You begin casting Allure..
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:16 2014] You begin casting Cancel Magic.
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:20 2014] Your charm spell has worn off. <------- I expect cancel to get enthrall (in first slot) here, not charm
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:20 2014] A sand scarab feels a bit dispelled.
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:27 2014] You begin casting Cancel Magic.
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:30 2014] A sand scarab feels a bit dispelled.
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:36 2014] You begin casting Cancel Magic.
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:39 2014] A sand scarab feels a bit dispelled.
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:45 2014] You begin casting Cancel Magic.
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:48 2014] A sand scarab feels a bit dispelled.
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:54 2014] You begin casting Cancel Magic.
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:54 2014] Your Enthrall spell has worn off. <------- this was a mez time out and not a cancel
[Mon Nov 24 14:41:57 2014] A sand scarab feels a bit dispelled.


I messed around with this a bunch of times with similar results. Trying to dispel many many times, then enthrall, then charm etc.



Here is what is happening on live / what im used to:

[Mon Nov 24 15:05:50 2014] a sand scarab glowers at you dubiously -- You could probably win this fight.
[Mon Nov 24 15:05:51 2014] You begin casting Enthrall.
[Mon Nov 24 15:05:54 2014] A sand scarab has been enthralled.
[Mon Nov 24 15:05:56 2014] You begin casting Allure.
[Mon Nov 24 15:06:09 2014] You begin casting Cancel Magic.
[Mon Nov 24 15:06:12 2014] Your Enthrall spell has worn off. <------- enthrall, in first spot, drops as expected.
[Mon Nov 24 15:06:12 2014] A sand scarab feels a bit dispelled.

[SamwiseRed]

classic changes, Hayner fixing dispells

[Haynar]

A low strength spell will dispell in one cast most of the time. Not all of the time.

Try doing the same sequence on live 20-30 times and see what happens.

Classic.

H

[Pringles]

Sorry, why would it skip the enthrall (first slot) and go straight to second slot though? I understand a few casts maybe needed to dispell the first slot, but skipping the first slot and going straight to the second slot?

[Haynar]

Ok. Since there will be so many questions. Here are basics.

A weak spell will have a strength of one. It will have this number of counters 90% of the time. 10% of the time it will have 1 to 8 counters, random.

A strength 2 spell has 1 or 2 counters 90% of time. The other 10% it will be random 1 to 8.

Thats the basic pattern.

If a count 1 is in top slot, one cast of cancel magic will clear it.

If a str 3 is top slot, str 2 in second slot, a single cancel magic wont clear slot 1. That single cast will start at top slot and remove one counter per buff until it clears a buff or goes thru them all.

So in this case, one cast of cancel magic does nothing. Two casts clears slot 2. Three casts clears slot 1.

Another case, imagine buffs that have these counters in slots:

1 3 2 1

One cast of cancel magic - slot one gone.
Two casts, slot 4 gone. But slots 2 and 3 will also have counters remaining reduced by one.
Cast 3 and slot 3 poofs
Cast 4 and last is gone.

Stronger dispell spells can remove more counters each pass, and can do multiple passes.

No dispellable spell has more than 8 counters. A cancel magic(9) remove up to 9 counters per spell. And will always take out top dispellable.

H

[Pringles]

Ty for the explanation sir, I never knew dispel was that complicated!

[Daldaen]

I'll be curious to see how many counters AEs like Talendor/Gorenaire/Queen Chardok have. Cause not being able to remove those with a single Cancel Magic stick are going to revert them to real difficulties. Or a single pulse of bard song etc.

[Haynar]

Something else important on eqlive. Their RNG is very streaky. It often takes 50 or more cancel magic counts in removing the same spell to figure out its spell strength.

H

[Pringles]

I'm actually really looking forward to this :) I think this ups the difficulty on many encounters :)

[Pringles]

Speaking of dispels..... i shouldnt be able to dispel my entire guild, right? should be limited to group only? >< (hard to find "classic" evidence backing this) (havent tried on beta, only on blue)

[Erati]

No dispellable spell has more than 8 counters. A cancel magic(9) remove up to 9 counters per spell. And will always take out top dispellable.


this line is a bit confusing me for some reason

you stated that cancel magic will only remove 1 counter per pass, so unsure what this bit is about...unless you are referring to high lvl versions of cancel magic that can remove 9 counters and thus remove any buff that is dispellable

[Daldaen]

Hrmm. All clickies are deemed a 1 "power" spell right? Cause that is going to suck if your instant click you use as a junk buff rolls the dice and gets an 8 but doesn't get removed, some other buff does on a dispell. Unsure on classic status of this mechanic I need to do some reading.

Also were Nullify/Annul and the enchanter dispells all flagged as unresistable with this patch? I'll test on beta when I get home if you don't recall.

[Ele]

Taper Enchantment no longer OP!

[Daldaen]

I look very much forward to doing Gorenaire and Talendor now when you cannot remove the AEs with cancel magic staves.

Queen in Chardok will be good fun too. There's a reason all the classic strats for her suggest zerg DPSing and hoping she is dead before you all are.

But coupled with 255 resist cap, those AEs will be more manageable.

God I love classic.

[Nirgon]

eggcellent

So glad Haynar was brave enough to tackle this one and execute the change so well

[Grimjaw]

one thing I recall from live is cancel magic being a joke of a spell. glad its being put back in its place

[Haynar]

this line is a bit confusing me for some reason

you stated that cancel magic will only remove 1 counter per pass, so unsure what this bit is about...unless you are referring to high lvl versions of cancel magic that can remove 9 counters and thus remove any buff that is dispellable
The cancel magic spell, has a spell effect in places like lucy that say:
Cancel Magic(1)
This will do one pass thru buffs, removing up to one counter until it actually clears a buff or goes thru them all.

The lucy spell description could be.

Cancel Magic(4)
Cancel Magic(4)

This would do two passes, removing up to 4 counters per buff each pass. But since most buffs are less than 4 counters, unless you hit the random more than 4, this will usually take out top two slots.

Clear as mud?

H

[Erati]

The cancel magic spell, has a spell effect in places like lucy that say:
Cancel Magic(1)
This will do one pass thru buffs, removing up to one counter until it actually clears a buff or goes thru them all.

The lucy spell description could be.

Cancel Magic(4)
Cancel Magic(4)

This would do two passes, removing up to 4 counters per buff each pass. But since most buffs are less than 4 counters, unless you hit the random more than 4, this will usually take out top two slots.

Clear as mud?

H


yes this cleared it up

basically with new cancel magic, trying to remove Talendor/Queens Dot or Gore's slow with cancel magic will most likely simply only remove your buff in slot 2 unless the DOTs from those raid mobs has a 'Buff Counter' of 1.

It will now take multiple 'pass trus' of cancel magic to remove high end raid mob detrimental effects most likely

[Daldaen]

The number one concern I have is will all dispells be flagged unresistable?

Cause currently Cancel Magic is the only one flagged unresistable.

Need Annul and Nullify to get flagged as well. The chanter Taper line needs to be flagged unresistable too.

But yea those Dragon AEs will be much more tough.

[Erati]

The number one concern I have is will all dispells be flagged unresistable?

Cause currently Cancel Magic is the only one flagged unresistable.

Need Annul and Nullify to get flagged as well. The chanter Taper line needs to be flagged unresistable too.

But yea those Dragon AEs will be much more tough.


since when were Annul and Nullify unresistable? I dont remember dat

( I dont remember Cancel being unresistable either tho.... )

[Grimjaw]

dispels had a crazy life line, on live they were switched from detrimental to beneficial, and back and forth, requiring special rules to cast only on group members (and even more rules for pvp), but also cause a mob to agro when casted on them. but bottom line is they should never be resisted.

[Daldaen]

All dispells were unresistable. They were considered beneficial spells I think?

It's one reason why Phinigel on this server is non-classic. You can resist his Dispell proc.

[Nirgon]

Ya I'd love to see a classic-Velious log of resisting anything from the dispel line

Don't think I ever found one

[Haynar]

All dispells were unresistable. They were considered beneficial spells I think?

It's one reason why Phinigel on this server is non-classic. You can resist his Dispell proc.

I fixed some code that did resist checks on dispells. That might fix his proc.

H

[Daldaen]

He Procs Nullify magic. So if you fixed that, you're set.

[Haynar]

There are no more resist checks on pure dispells. So yep, he should be diff after patch.

H

[Nirgon]

Have junk buffs up top... lest the dispel checker hop down to your enduring breath cuz you got a bunch of fatty buffs up top :)

[Technique]

No dispellable spell has more than 8 counters.No spell has more than 6 effect slots in classic/kunark/velious spdats.

[Daldaen]

There are counters
And there are slots.

Counters means all spells get a 1-8 roll on how 'powerful' the spell is.
Slots determines how many pass through your buff bar they make.

Example:

Grim Aura (1)
Spirit of the Wolf (4)
Skin Like Nature (8)
Chloroplast (6)

If Cancel Magic is cast, it has 1 slot and will roll a dice on whether to remove between 1 and 4 counters.

In the above situation, it will immediately remove Grim Aura.

If Nullify Magic is cast, it has 2 slots and will roll a dice on whether to remove between 1 and 4 counters on each.

Slot 1 will immediately remove Grim Aura (regardless of the roll since clickies should be 1 counter)
Slot 2 will roll dice between 1-4 (let say it rolls a 4)

End buff configuration:


--Grim Aura removed by Slot 1 dispell (roll irrelevant)--
--Spirit of the Wolf removed by Slot 2 dispell (rolled 4... any lower roll would not have removed)--
Skin Like Nature (8)
Chloroplast (6)

[Technique]

There are counters
And there are slots.
No shit, genius.

The last we heard he was basing the #/str of counters on the number of effect slots used by the spell.

Say buff 1 has 3 effects, we assign it 3 counters with a strength of 3.
Buff 2 has 4 effects, 4 counters, strenth 4
Buff 3 has 1 effect, 1 strength.