Blade of Carnage drop on beta

[Nirgon]

Still had enraging blow

[krazyGlue]

Nope

[Littlegyno 13.0]

Nope

he's saying it still has it retard. it shouldn't. it wasnt added until luclin.

[Nirgon]

Just trying to do the right thing here you know?

Ain't like when epic pieces were dropping on red and everyone tried to hide trak guts and shit off the time line.

[Ele]

The bigger issue is people actually killing AoW.

[Man0warr]

Just trying to do the right thing here you know?

Ain't like when epic pieces were dropping on red and everyone tried to hide trak guts and shit off the time line.

They already said that reverting the loot to Velious launch stats was the last thing they would be doing before beta is over.

[Haynar]

The bigger issue is people actually killing AoW.
This.

[Raev]

The bigger issue is people actually killing AoW.

He definitely needs to be tuned up a bit, but the reality is some zerg or another is going to kill him on day 1. All the giants are 100% zergable.

[Daldaen]

He definitely needs to be tuned up a bit, but the reality is some zerg or another is going to kill him on day 1. All the giants are 100% zergable.

I wonder who is going to Wield the most impressive Zergforce come Velious... The Talendor last weekend with 200 characters showed some relative numbers, will be interesting to see which guild gets the most returned or if anymore merge to create Ultra zergs.

I'd love to see a Gimpatron 2.0 with all the Class R guilds throwing characters at AoW.

[Raev]

day 1? doubt it, even with required numbers the main tank just not gonna hang in there without velious AC i dont think.

Kunark tanks won't be 1-rounded with defensive disc up. AoW will just be a matter of a monster CH chain, a few tank switches, and 200 ragebringer rogue alts.

[Nirgon]

This.

Any early thoughts on what likely needs to change with this encounter Big H

Prayin 2 god u aint out in Tanaris collecting buzzard beaks and shit

[Littlegyno 13.0]

Any early thoughts on what likely needs to change with this encounter Big H

Prayin 2 god u aint out in Tanaris collecting buzzard beaks and shit

Only saw one thing I can come out and directly and saw since I was AOW killed right at Luclin and on beta:

AC too low, rogues were consistently hitting for 80/90s on beta.

On Live, even with primal weps and epics, rogues weren't hitting that high. The DPS was SHIT.

[Nirgon]

Feels like all NPCs have the same AC here anyways tbqh

[mr_jon3s]

Hes getting Zerged on day 1. Think about how much VP gear and sky gear is out there. Throw in all the players that are gonna come back. Anyway does BoC still have proc or they remove it?

[Treats]

Hes getting Zerged on day 1. Think about how much VP gear and sky gear is out there. Throw in all the players that are gonna come back. Anyway does BoC still have proc or they remove it?

VP and Sky gear shouldn't mean shit for Avatar of War

Obv something is wrong if he was killed already

AC/ATK probably needs to be revisited again for both PC's and NPC's

Honestly, KT/Dain/ST Key/ToV Dragons shouldn't be dying

Should do a test on King Tormax with and without Avatar -- This would probably reveal the underlying problems and how to go about fixing them so everything isn't destroyed on day one of Velious

[koros]

You guys have some seriously rose colored glasses about player knowledge/skill/average gear, even in the top raid guilds, in December 2000.

Every single thing in Velious should easily be able to die day one. What, you really think an extra +25 sv all and 250 hp/mana and maybe ~5-10% better dps from weapons, that people in top guilds had 6 months in vs day one would make a difference vs knowledge/more people/no lag?

We have years of people farming VP. The top classic guilds had cleared it maybe 3-4x. Everyone has an epic now. Back then, top guilds still had posts about people getting epics months into Velious. AoW is only hard if your tanks can't survive high damage rounds and your clerics are too laggy/disorganized to get off timely CHs. Otherwise it's cake and would have been back then too.

[Nirgon]

We had CH rotations and tanks wearing full Warlord and would get dropped by Yelinak at times on live

I'm totally on board with AoW/Tunare being a perfect reason for mob ac / damage getting a revisit

Then again, we DID have 130 people including tons of ragebringer'd rogues. I saw the tanks get absolutely f'ing pancaked even during defensive, I think only 1 survived his whole disc.

bur kek etc

[koros]

We had CH rotations and tanks wearing full Warlord and would get dropped by Yelinak at times on live

I'm totally on board with AoW/Tunare being a perfect reason for mob ac / damage getting a revisit

Then again, we DID have 130 people including tons of ragebringer'd rogues. I saw the tanks get absolutely f'ing pancaked even during defensive, I think only 1 survived his whole disc.

bur kek etc

Your clerics were lagging, or had a shitty CH chain... Yelinak hit for 100 DB, 25 DI it looks like. He did a max 350 a hit to a defensive warrior. The math doesn't lie. Ch chains aren't perfect and you're bound to get warriors dropping. Sometimes. But let's not pretend that there's something wrong with every single one of these mobs being killable with < 72 on day one. If they want to tune them to have just insane atk/ac go ahead, but let's not pretend it's classic.

Mobs didn't have insane AC until Luclin, and even then I was doing 60-80 dps to Arch Lich first few weeks of the expansion as a rogue.

[Treats]

It doesnt matter, it was done with full kunark gear on fresh beta copies, no clickies, no velious spells/buffs, no boxing, no joint raids with others, no visitors and no help what so ever. With a new guild who has never raided together.

To me 47% looked absolutely fantastic with that in mind, a legitimate first day 47% possible is testament to the best team of clerics I've ever played with.

Something might be wrong

[Tankdan]

The bigger issue is people actually killing AoW.

With 160 epic'd people getting AOE rezzed by GMs.

Thats an issue? That Beta test was a wipe at 50%.

[Ele]

With 160 epic'd people getting AOE rezzed by GMs.

Thats an issue? That Beta test was a wipe at 50%.

Who needs rez when you can bind?

[LostCause]

ive seen AoW go down to 64% with 37 7-9 were clerics
decent deeps and that was without any velious gear.
anyone who thinks you need a zerg to kill AoW is dumb.


back on live kunark was out less then a year so i highly doubt anyone was even BIS kunark gear when velious released
doubt they zerged it down with BIS velious gear either.

[Treats]

http://web.archive.org/web/20020828095215im_/http://legacyofsteel.net/images/screenshots/july/7_13/aow_health.jpg

http://web.archive.org/web/20020305074530im_/http://legacyofsteel.net/images/screenshots/july/7_27/AoWFirstKill.jpg

They absolutely zerged him.

They couldn't tank Avatar of War with NToV shit and didn't UNTIL RIGHT BEFORE THE NEXT FUCKING EXPANSION.

It boggles my mind how some of you think he could be killable in BiS Kunark gear.

They were probably just bads that had no clue what they were doing I guess.

[Raev]

It boggles my mind how some of you think he could be killable in BiS Kunark gear.

The Avatar of War has a max hit of 704 against a defensive warrior. If he got unbelievably incredibly lucky, and got 8 attack rounds with 8 hits and 8 max hits, he would still not 1-round a tank with 5617 HP. Kunark tanks are damn close to this right now.

Guilds had trouble tanking him in Velious because of their shitty internet connections. If your CH chain gets lagged out for 1s (easy to do in 2000) and he gets 2-3 attack rounds in, your tank is going to die.

I personally would like to see AoW buffed a bit compared to his beta stats, but the reality is if his stats are anything close to classic he's going to die on day one to a 200 man zerg.

You really need to accept the fact that we have better GUIs, better internet connections, and more experience at this game than people did in 2000 and let go of the butthurt.

[Treats]

Guilds had trouble tanking him in Velious because of their shitty internet connections. If your CH chain gets lagged out for 1s (easy to do in 2000) and he gets 2-3 attack rounds in, your tank is going to die.

I personally would like to see AoW buffed a bit compared to his beta stats, but the reality is if his stats are anything close to classic he's going to die on day one to a 200 man zerg.

You really need to accept the fact that we have better GUIs, better internet connections, and more experience at this game than people did in 2000 and let go of the butthurt.

Please tell me, in what game do you take the BiS gear from a previous expansion and go straight to the bosses of the next expansion and kill them on day fucking 1?

The developers at Verant/Sony would have been fired if this ever happened (some of them were anyway).

They must of had connections strung with wire and duct tape at their offices during their pre-beta testing, thats why they couldn't kill AoW with their BiS Kunark gears!!

Yes, you have more experience on P1999, however that is not experience from an actual Verant server.

GTFO with the butthurt, sorry I side with the NPC's more than the Players.

[heartbrand]

Gear checks didn't exist until gates of discord / plane of time with the introduction of capped raid instances. For all the hate against WoW they fixed zerging by having mob hp and stats go up per player on a raid.

[Raev]

Please tell me, in what game do you take the BiS gear from a previous expansion and go straight to the bosses of the next expansion and kill them on day fucking 1?

Our situation here is a somewhat unique because we have prior knowledge of the expansion.

GTFO with the butthurt, sorry I side with the NPC's more than the Players.

I don't know how else to describe your emotional appeals to the intentions of Verant's developers rather than the actual mechanics they created.

[Ambrotos]

No it isn't unique. Just because you have prior knowledge doesn't mean things are working as they did on live. We had over 80 people with BIS along with another 20-30 people who were our sister guild and close in quality of gear. The fight lasted so long, I can't even tell you if it was 35 mins or 1hr.

I know for a fact Karana and AoW on here compared to live is nothing even remotely close. Just because you can theory quest eq numbers doesn't make it so. There is a reason why two of the best guilds in EQ had to wait an entire expansion to make a real attempt on him and you can't chalk it up to "internet connections".

200 man zerg on day one even if they knew what to do, wouldn't even be close to what AoW was on live.

[Littlegyno 13.0]

No it isn't unique. Just because you have prior knowledge doesn't mean things are working as they did on live. We had over 80 people with BIS along with another 20-30 people who were our sister guild and close in quality of gear. The fight lasted so long, I can't even tell you if it was 35 mins or 1hr.

I know for a fact Karana and AoW on here compared to live is nothing even remotely close. Just because you can theory quest eq numbers doesn't make it so. There is a reason why two of the best guilds in EQ had to wait an entire expansion to make a real attempt on him and you can't chalk it up to "internet connections".

200 man zerg on day one even if they knew what to do, wouldn't even be close to what AoW was on live.

EVERYBODYS MATH IS ALWAYS WRONG.

[Raev]

Just because you can theory quest eq numbers doesn't make it so.

As long as you admit you don't have any mathematical basis for your opinion, I'm fine with it :cool:

Gyno referring to himself of course.

[Tankdan]

Please tell me, in what game do you take the BiS gear from a previous expansion and go straight to the bosses of the next expansion and kill them on day fucking 1?

The developers at Verant/Sony would have been fired if this ever happened (some of them were anyway).

They must of had connections strung with wire and duct tape at their offices during their pre-beta testing, thats why they couldn't kill AoW with their BiS Kunark gears!!

Yes, you have more experience on P1999, however that is not experience from an actual Verant server.

GTFO with the butthurt, sorry I side with the NPC's more than the Players.

You're giving EQ mobs way too much credit. And the AoW kill on beta people were getting AOE rezzed, it DID rek the tanks. It was a wipe by all means. If 140 epic'd people cant zerge it in the unthinkable gear they had, you cannot sit here and say its undertuned. His max hits are well known, his HP is known, after that it is a mana and numbers game.

We're playing a whole different EQ right now. Raids have 80 reapers, 30+ soullfires, 20+ charged mallets to hand out, and all kinds of tricks up their sleeve. No, it is not that hard. Yes it was hard back in the day because people were a lot less hardcore than they are now. No guild on EQClassic even comes close to the effort / time / dedication needed to raid Class C on P99. Who cares what some guild did or didn't do in 2000, I don't. I just want accurate numbers reflected. It wasn't meant to be harder.

[koros]

http://web.archive.org/web/20020828095215im_/http://legacyofsteel.net/images/screenshots/july/7_13/aow_health.jpg

http://web.archive.org/web/20020305074530im_/http://legacyofsteel.net/images/screenshots/july/7_27/AoWFirstKill.jpg

They absolutely zerged him.

They couldn't tank Avatar of War with NToV shit and didn't UNTIL RIGHT BEFORE THE NEXT FUCKING EXPANSION.

It boggles my mind how some of you think he could be killable in BiS Kunark gear.

They were probably just bads that had no clue what they were doing I guess.

What exactly are you trying to show with those links? Because you seem to be arguing against your own point. Those are from july 2001. During which time, Legacy of Steel had absolutely 0 NToV loot, and they still got AoW that low. You guys can poke holes in our "theorycrafting" all you want, but math is math and eq is a game of basic math and statistics. Especially on a mob that attacks one target every 1.8 (is that right here?) seconds for less than their max hitpoints.

[Nirgon]

Like people said we had Yelinak wipes and it really was because of how many people would DC during fights.

How many clerics and rogues were present? Their hp totals can't be completely off. Maybe their AC... parse them on live.

[Ele]

What exactly are you trying to show with those links? Because you seem to be arguing against your own point. Those are from july 2001. During which time, Legacy of Steel had absolutely 0 NToV loot, and they still got AoW that low. You guys can poke holes in our "theorycrafting" all you want, but math is math and eq is a game of basic math and statistics. Especially on a mob that attacks one target every 1.8 (is that right here?) seconds for less than their max hitpoints.

LoS had been farming Sleeper's for over a month by July 2001 and pioneered the Dozekar tear quests earlier than that. They had been killing vindi/statue/tormax/dain for months.

For the July 27 kill: The Avatar of War proved to be no match for the joint forces of Shock of Swords and Legacy of Steel in an epic battle that lasted for over 30 minutes.

The attempt they had 2 weeks earlier, they had a joint raid with Shock of Swords and Paragons of Fury.

[Nirgon]

Would like a with an without primal parse on dis mob

P99 Beta and live, both

[Raev]

Especially on a mob that attacks one target every 1.8 (is that right here?) seconds for less than their max hitpoints.

His cooldown is just over 1 second here.

[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 372 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Detoxx!
---
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 325 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Detoxx!
---
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:23 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:23 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:23 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
---
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:24 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.

So yeah, he's overtuned :cool: Just like the resist system is ridiculously overtuned right now (we should be resisting way more than 20% of Sontalak's fire AE and 50% of his fears with max FR/MR) but I like it that way for a bit more challenge. I just get irritated at people who bring up these vague classic memories and act like those should be some sort of proof standard.

Lets also not forget class composition here is way better than on Live. We don't have raids full of Pal/Dru/Sk etc.

[Nirgon]

Need to post parses or stfu at this point

I'll dump what I got tonite

But this prob needs a dev pal to get a good long parse

Anyone got a lvl 60 warrior in abouts full Kael armor on live or on test? I can ask the faceless order pals for logs if maybe they got some from eqlive test with in era gear.

[Treats]

What exactly are you trying to show with those links? Because you seem to be arguing against your own point. Those are from july 2001. During which time, Legacy of Steel had absolutely 0 NToV loot, and they still got AoW that low. You guys can poke holes in our "theorycrafting" all you want, but math is math and eq is a game of basic math and statistics. Especially on a mob that attacks one target every 1.8 (is that right here?) seconds for less than their max hitpoints.

How am I arguing against my own point, they were attempting and zerging him using Frozen Jesus.

His Atk Delay should be 1600 or 1700ms.

Sure, you can say EQ is a game of basic math and statistics. How many times then in a 30-60 minute fight do you think Avatar of War is going to max quad/flurry/bash/kick a tank for at or just below his maximum HP and kill him? How many times is a cleric going to be half a second late or half a second early on Complete Heal?

You're giving EQ mobs way too much credit. And the AoW kill on beta people were getting AOE rezzed, it DID rek the tanks. It was a wipe by all means. If 140 epic'd people cant zerge it in the unthinkable gear they had, you cannot sit here and say its undertuned. His max hits are well known, his HP is known, after that it is a mana and numbers game.

Those values that are known don't mean much. ATK and AC of the NPC determine mana efficiency, how many errors you can afford to make healing, and the length of the fight.

The server has always been backwards in terms of difficulty. The game is tuned from easy to hard when it should be the other way around. I don't blame the devs at all though, its a very difficult task when some the main components of what made the formulas work on live are unknown.

This is what I would start with:

Increase all notable NPCs ATK
Most hits would be for (DI-2) non Defensive and (DI-1) Defensive on a max Kunark AC value
(DI-x) would raise x as AC is increased from BiS Velious gear
Avoidance lowered depending on NPC/PC level difference

Increase all notable NPCs AC
DPS reduction of somewhere between 25% to 40% without Avatar
15% to 30% with Avatar

[Nirgon]

Well also your hit chance against something that many levels higher..

[Raev]

His Atk Delay should be 1600 or 1700ms.

It is ~1100ms here right now.

[koros]

I'm getting annoyed with this completely arbitrary analysis on both sides of the argument, so let's do some math with a log that was posted from early 2002. Shortened to only include AoW swings. It never flurries, so it was almost certainly crippled by this point in the fight. I separated what seems like "swing" rounds, this almost perfectly works between seconds. Only once did I group swings from one second with another, and that was because at :49 it only swung twice, and at :50 it swung once, and then again three times at :51. Instead of getting 3 shitty rounds in a super small period I assume it was a server timing issue as :49 rolled to :50 so I grouped that together.

Posting this now and doing a bit more in depth analysis when I get time.

29 misses, 67 hits from swings. We can pretty safely assume around a 70% hit rate.

19:50:22 to 19:51:09 = 47 seconds, and 96 swings = 2.04 swings per second

Most swings in any one second: 5
Most damage in any one round: 2439
Number of attack rounds: 28
Average number of swings per round: 3.4
Estimated delay from this: Almost exactly 1.5

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:21 2002, Rexxor assumes a defensive fighting style.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:22 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:22 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOUR magical skin absorbs the blow!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:22 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!"

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:22 2002, The*Avatar*of War bashes YOU for 236 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:23 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU parry!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:23 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 614 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:23 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:25 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 614 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:25 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:27 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:27 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU dodge!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:27 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:29 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:29 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 389 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:29 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 276 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:29 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU parry!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:29 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU dodge!"

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:30 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to bash YOU, but misses!"

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:30 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:30 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:32 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 276 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:32 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:32 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:32 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:32 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:34 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU parry!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:34 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 344 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:34 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:34 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 681 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:36 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:36 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 591 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:37 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 524 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:37 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:37 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 434 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:37 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 659 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:38 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to bash YOU, but misses!"

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:39 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 636 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:39 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU parry!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:39 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:41 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 591 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:41 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:41 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:41 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 546 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:42 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:42 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:42 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:42 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 501 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:42 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:44 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 276 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:44 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU dodge!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:44 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:44 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 276 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:44 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 659 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:46 2002, The*Avatar*of War bashes YOU for 259 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:46 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 389 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:46 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 659 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:46 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:48 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU dodge!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:48 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:48 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:49 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 276 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:49 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU parry!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:50 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 321 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:51 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:51 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 299 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:51 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU parry!"

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:53 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:53 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!"

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:54 2002, The*Avatar*of War kicks YOU for 255 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:55 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 4 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:55 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:55 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 434 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:57 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:57 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:57 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:57 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:58 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:58 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 434 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:58 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:58 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 366 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:00 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 524 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:00 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 434 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:00 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 456 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:02 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:02 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 321 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:02 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 299 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:02 2002, The*Avatar*of War bashes YOU for 259 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:04 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 569 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:04 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 276 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:04 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 276 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:04 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 614 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:04 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:05 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:05 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:05 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 546 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:05 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 591 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:08 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:08 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 501 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:08 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 614 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:09 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 411 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:09 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 366 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:09 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 636 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:09 2002, You have been slain by The*Avatar*of War!
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:11 2002," Returning to home point, please wait..."
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:12 2002," LOADING, PLEASE WAIT..."

[koros]

You'll notice there's a hit for 4. It's from rune. I'll try to remove any hits that aren't possible without a rune when I do a median/mean DI analysis.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:55 2002, The shimmer of runes fades.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:55 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 4 points of damage.

So for all the hits, I parsed out just the number. Then I subtracted 254 and divided by 45. If the result wasn't a whole number 1-10 I threw it out. This left 43 hits, 24 of which were DI 10, 3 of which were DI 9, 4 of which were DI 8.

~56% of the time was max
~72% of the time was 8-10 on the DI.

Pretty high hits... but I hope you see where I'm going with this. The odds of a max round ever are almost 0. I'm just going to run the numbers for 5 hits, since that's all I saw, getting 8 max would be even more rare.

Chance of a max hit(.56^5) * Chance of hitting (.7^5)* Chance of a 5 swings (max in the log I had) round(.17)=0.0015% chance of max round per swing

If we raise those powers to the 7th or 8th power, it gets stupidly small. I rest my fucking case.

[Littlegyno 13.0]

As long as you admit you don't have any mathematical basis for your opinion, I'm fine with it :cool:

Gyno referring to himself of course.

u got a problem?

[Treats]

Stuff

Faz you were tanking him in that shiny new Cobalt Breastplate amirite?!

[koros]

Faz you were tanking him in that shiny new Cobalt Breastplate amirite?!

I'm sure the 14 ac difference between that and warlords is going to drastically shift the distrubution curve. Way to dismiss my thorough analysis with bullshit. You're smarter than that. This is about figuring out how strong the thing actually was. What exactly do you take issue with?

[Raev]

His AC is completely comparable as you should know. 289 raw item ac is actually obtainable in Kunark, although its a bit tricky.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:23 2002], The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

Let me give a more full explanation of what happened, though. Here's how the AC formula used to work before the patch immediately preceding PoP:

The AC from your items was added up, but the value used for it was hard capped based on your level. This was the same for all classes. Once you had 289 raw AC from items (or 385 as a cloth class, since they get less effect from item AC), that was it. More AC from items wouldn't do anything.

Planes of Power Release date: October 29, 2002

Just stop posting, Treats.

[Treats]

Yeah, this is pointless.

Grats, ya'll win.

Farm all the Velious pixels to your hearts content.

[Treats]

Been thinking about this a bit more.

Faz said the flurries were omitted from the log he posted Koros.

It never flurries, so it was almost certainly crippled by this point in the fight.

Even if he could have been crippled it would have had no affect on his Flurry rate since this is based off of NPC CHA.

Anyways, on Torven's sheet it shows AoW to have a Flurry Rate of 5%, so it should be between 20-25% chance to flurry each round.

Koros in your calculations is there a reason you omitted Ripostes and Bash/Kick? NPC's reset their Bash/Kick timer each time they Flurry (and Rampage I think) so he is guaranteed two chances in a Flurry round. 254 is max bash damage I think? Or 254 + x?

I use Faz log and come up with this for total damage possible

Max
704 x 8
254 x 2
704 x 1
6844 Total

DI 8-10 (50%)
704 x 4
614 x 4
254 x 2
614 x 1
6394 Total

4 Normal/4 Flurry/2 Bash/1 Riposte

Using the number you came up with (0.0015%) it would happen 1.5 times in a 25 minute fight

[koros]

Been thinking about this a bit more.

Faz said the flurries were omitted from the log he posted Koros.



Even if he could have been crippled it would have had no affect on his Flurry rate since this is based off of NPC CHA.

Anyways, on Torven's sheet it shows AoW to have a Flurry Rate of 5%, so it should be between 20-25% chance to flurry each round.

Koros in your calculations is there a reason you omitted Ripostes and Bash/Kick? NPC's reset their Bash/Kick timer each time they Flurry (and Rampage I think) so he is guaranteed two chances in a Flurry round. 254 is max bash damage I think? Or 254 + x?

I use Faz log and come up with this for total damage possible

Max
704 x 8
254 x 2
704 x 1
6844 Total

DI 8-10 (50%)
704 x 4
614 x 4
254 x 2
614 x 1
6394 Total

4 Normal/4 Flurry/2 Bash/1 Riposte

Using the number you came up with (0.0015%) it would happen 1.5 times in a 25 minute fight

I forgot flurry was based on cha. Back in Velious I never knew that and we were under the impression it was Dex, so we made cripple a priority. Was rampage based on Dex? I omitted bash/kick and riposte to not muddle his normal damage from melee rounds, since while those are largish hits, they aren't the majority of his damage, I wanted to get an estimate on average hit, average number of hits, and variance. I'm sure Faz had avoidance and mitigation AA in the log also, I was just looking to get a baseline.

My main argument was that execution is more important than gear in this case. He should be very hard, basically always, but a perfect chain can overcome it, Since he's not going to one round a tank, on average, more than once once every couple minutes. BiS Velious gear might change it from once every 3 min to once every 5 min... I'm on vacation atm, but I'll write more when I get home.

[Raev]

I think Koros did his math on 5x max hits, not 8, so the percentage should be even lower.

Anyway, I think the real point with the Avatar of War is that he has no AE, so you can zerg him. If you want more DPS on a NTOV Dragon, you have to bring more Rogues *and* the shamans/resist gear/clickies/etc to keep them alive. Here you just have people log on their naked-except-for-ragebringer rogue alts.

Also welcome back to real discussion, Treats (no sarcasm)

[Rais]

Wait. You're comparing AoW a year and a half after he was first killed and combat logs from Shadows of Luclin era?
Has any of this information you are getting from these logs applying the AA abilities of the person in the logs?

[Treats]

Yeah IDK, his ATK had to have been off the charts considering Luclin AA's.

With the hard cap at 289 AC your warriors had to have that very early on in Velious. Mitigation couldn't have been the problem, it was having enough total HP to survive the RNG spikes.

Doubt you would let some cleric in the chain with a shitty connection that couldn't make heals. It's not even possible to account for human error in these numbers anyway.

From a classic standpoint, anyone trying to tank him with under 6500-7000 HP should probably just get smashed. Sure you could survive some rounds but eventually the RNG will catch up. You could have 200 Rogues with Ragebringers but if he's not being tanked and running around slaughtering people it doesn't even matter.

Factor in his AC also resulting in a terribly long duration you wouldn't have enough mana anyway.

I'm sure you attempted him multiple times after they nerfed the charm in Kael Rais? If you couldn't kill him before you did I'm sure there was a pretty good reason why.

You didn't use Frozen guy because of HP to tank AoW, he just put out the most DPS because of CHA buff haha.

[Raev]

You could have 200 Rogues with Ragebringers but if he's not being tanked and running around slaughtering people it doesn't even matter.

With a 1.5s cooldown, N rogues will last (ignoring backstab/riposte issues) 1.5N seconds and do roughly 1.5N * (N/2) * 50 total damage. With 1M hp for the AoW, solving gives N=163 :p

[Ele]

With a 1.5s cooldown, N rogues will last (ignoring backstab/riposte issues) 1.5N seconds and do roughly 1.5N * (N/2) * 50 total damage. With 1M hp for the AoW, solving gives N=163 :p

By our Ragebringers combined, we are Captain Backstab.

[Daldaen]

With a 1.5s cooldown, N rogues will last (ignoring backstab/riposte issues) 1.5N seconds and do roughly 1.5N * (N/2) * 50 total damage. With 1M hp for the AoW, solving gives N=163 :p

There are some zerg guilds for sure. But I think even when Velious drops any guild would be hard pressed to break 100 players.

[Ele]

There are some zerg guilds for sure. But I think even when Velious drops any guild would be hard pressed to break 100 players.

We need to let the ghosts free!

http://i.imgur.com/hjYIXwc.gif

[koros]

Not to wax poetic, but I think original EQ was the best game/mmo ever made. I want this to be accurate, not because it was perfect, but because the great aspects and the flaws combined in such a way that made an amazing experience. Our collective memory is fading as time passes, so if EQ or a version of it were going to be recreated in another 16 years, what we suss out here makes a difference.

That said, yes Luclin AA made a difference. But it wasn't that huge. Very few (if any) Luclin mobs put out more dps on a single target than AoW.

Could AoW actually hit 8x in one round? I was under the impression that it quadded + 1 (or was it 2?) extra attack from flurry, and maybe triple attack. If so, it that verified? I'll log into test server and have my mage's pet sit there and tank it for 30 minutes when I get home. I doubt the underlying values have ever been changed.

If it could hit 8x in one round we have to change my math from ^5 to ^8 as was mentioned. Even discounting Luclin AA, I think that lowers the odds of a max round more than my original calculations. Inverse exponential probabilities are a bitch like that.

[koros]

Yeah IDK, his ATK had to have been off the charts considering Luclin AA's.

With the hard cap at 289 AC your warriors had to have that very early on in Velious. Mitigation couldn't have been the problem, it was having enough total HP to survive the RNG spikes.

Doubt you would let some cleric in the chain with a shitty connection that couldn't make heals. It's not even possible to account for human error in these numbers anyway.

From a classic standpoint, anyone trying to tank him with under 6500-7000 HP should probably just get smashed. Sure you could survive some rounds but eventually the RNG will catch up. You could have 200 Rogues with Ragebringers but if he's not being tanked and running around slaughtering people it doesn't even matter.

Factor in his AC also resulting in a terribly long duration you wouldn't have enough mana anyway.

I'm sure you attempted him multiple times after they nerfed the charm in Kael Rais? If you couldn't kill him before you did I'm sure there was a pretty good reason why.

You didn't use Frozen guy because of HP to tank AoW, he just put out the most DPS because of CHA buff haha.

Which mobs were Frozen Jesus and Frozen Moses? I used to hang out in FoH irc but they were pretty tight-lipped. Was it frozenshard + a cha buff and Frozen Moses that lieutenant mob who just had a lot of hp?

[Ele]

Which mobs were Frozen Jesus and Frozen Moses? I used to hang out in FoH irc but they were pretty tight-lipped. Was it frozenshard + a cha buff and Frozen Moses that lieutenant mob who just had a lot of hp?

Fjokar Frozenshard pre-nerf

[pasi]

This thread comes up every couple of months.

It's always people arguing their feelings from way back versus people actually running the numbers. It's almost as if y'all are trying to get a sense of purpose by pretending this content was more than it was.

[Treats]

That said, yes Luclin AA made a difference. But it wasn't that huge. Very few (if any) Luclin mobs put out more dps on a single target than AoW.

Could AoW actually hit 8x in one round? I was under the impression that it quadded + 1 (or was it 2?) extra attack from flurry, and maybe triple attack. If so, it that verified? I'll log into test server and have my mage's pet sit there and tank it for 30 minutes when I get home. I doubt the underlying values have ever been changed.

If it could hit 8x in one round we have to change my math from ^5 to ^8 as was mentioned. Even discounting Luclin AA, I think that lowers the odds of a max round more than my original calculations. Inverse exponential probabilities are a bitch like that.

Combat Stability 3 was 10% Mitigation
Combat Agility 3 was 10% Avoidance

NPC's can Quad + Bash/Kick + Flurry + Quad + Bash Kick in one round for 10 total attacks (Not counting Ripostes)

This thread comes up every couple of months.

It's always people arguing their feelings from way back versus people actually running the numbers. It's almost as if y'all are trying to get a sense of purpose by pretending this content was more than it was.

These aren't feelings, the stuff is archived. You can run all the numbers you want but they will never account for RNG and human error. Theoretically the only difference between a Live server in 2001 and Project1999 would be knowledge and connection speed. It isn't difficult to come to the conclusion that this is not the case yet on P1999, hence why these type of posts are made.

If it was possible to kill The Avatar of War in Kunark or Kunark + Velious gear it would have been done. I don't understand why I have to keep reiterating this. It just seems like some of you think the people in FoH and LoS were trash compared to the players on P1999.

[mr_jon3s]

Combat Stability 3 was 10% Mitigation
Combat Agility 3 was 10% Avoidance

NPC's can Quad + Bash/Kick + Flurry + Quad + Bash Kick in one round for 10 total attacks (Not counting Ripostes)



These aren't feelings, the stuff is archived. You can run all the numbers you want but they will never account for RNG and human error. Theoretically the only difference between a Live server in 2001 and Project1999 would be knowledge and connection speed. It isn't difficult to come to the conclusion that this is not the case yet on P1999, hence why these type of posts are made.

If it was possible to kill The Avatar of War in Kunark or Kunark + Velious gear it would have been done. I don't understand why I have to keep reiterating this. It just seems like some of you think the people in FoH and LoS were trash compared to the players on P1999.

Look at the gear people have right now compared to when velious came out. How many people were running around with VP gear, epics, full planar, best in slot gear? Were not learning new strats that original guilds had to learn. We already know were gonna need to chain cheal and rotate tanks.

[koros]

Combat Stability 3 was 10% Mitigation
Combat Agility 3 was 10% Avoidance

NPC's can Quad + Bash/Kick + Flurry + Quad + Bash Kick in one round for 10 total attacks (Not counting Ripostes)



These aren't feelings, the stuff is archived. You can run all the numbers you want but they will never account for RNG and human error. Theoretically the only difference between a Live server in 2001 and Project1999 would be knowledge and connection speed. It isn't difficult to come to the conclusion that this is not the case yet on P1999, hence why these type of posts are made.

If it was possible to kill The Avatar of War in Kunark or Kunark + Velious gear it would have been done. I don't understand why I have to keep reiterating this. It just seems like some of you think the people in FoH and LoS were trash compared to the players on P1999.

My implicit bias says that yes, we're that much better than FoH 2001. Hindsight is always 20/20. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. But I want evidence if that's the case. Serverside filtering didn't come into play until a few months into Velious. Also, any given server didn't have a lot of options on top notch players with a good connection. Many/most clerics were using 56k with probably a 250ms ping.

Faz's log gives a max of 5 attacks a round (non-kick/bash). Please provide an example of that many attacks in one round if you're certain that's the case. I have no problems with AoW being unbeatable on day one. But I'm convinced that it's not classic. If we want to be accurate we need to be fair about our own implicit bias.

[Treats]

Here

[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 79 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 659 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 79 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 929 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Jrel!
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 79 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War bashes YOU for 255 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 79 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 344 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] Pain and suffering tries to strike YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] You died.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 79 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 929 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 79 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 299 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 79 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 389 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] The Avatar of War tries to kick YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:26 2002] You have been healed for 385 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:27 2002] Pain and suffering tries to strike YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:27 2002] You died.
[Wed Apr 03 22:14:28 2002] Returning to home point, please wait...

Here also from Fazlazen's log, AoW pumps out 5438 damage most likely with Combat Agility 3/Combat Stability 3 and didn't even do his Flurry bash

[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] You have been healed for 385 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] You are blasted with chlorophyll.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] Heklar begins to cast a spell.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] Dualdor's body is covered with a soft glow.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 636 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 524 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Durus!
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 659 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] Durus goes into a berserker frenzy!
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War bashes YOU for 257 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The aura fades.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 591 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 659 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] You can't attack while stunned!
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:07 2002] You have been slain by The Avatar of War!
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:09 2002] Returning to home point, please wait...
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:09 2002] You disband your party.
[Tue Apr 02 17:53:09 2002] LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...

[Daldaen]

People are being far too scientific and not pragmatic enough.

Sure an awful round of quad/flurry of Max hits may not 1-round a defensive tank. And 200 epic'd rogues may kill him in 2 minutes.

But CH rotations - even with our stellar Internet - can have hiccups, tank swaps can occasionally be unclean, Warriors can lose Aggro near the end of defensive even with a full mallet, etc etc

You all aren't really accounting for the human element. And as much as you all love to say your guild is full of pros who never make mistakes and are the most competent and knowledgeable players, every guild has some down-right awful raiders who cannot perform some of their most basic functions. Beyond the one or two awful raiders, each guild has a handful of mediocre raiders as well. You don't all have 200 ex-raid leaders who know every mechanic, every class, every strategy, etc.

The AoW kills in Velious were almost all done with charmed Giants tanking, not warriors. I expect charmed Giants will again, on P99, be the tanks to kill AoW the first few times. It's just going to come down to how many competent enchanters there are, whether clerics have mana, and whether a few little exploits in charming will function here like they did on live.

[Raev]

Yes Daldaen, but that is not a reason to make him arbitrarily harder "because players killing the AoW isn't classic". We know his DI/DB and cooldown, give him a good amount of ATK and high AC (I agree its not nearly high enough when Rogues are doing 70 dps) and see what happens.

Koros and I are pretty sure that if he's classically tuned he's going to go down very rapidly; you and Treats are not. Make him classic and we'll find out.

[Daldaen]

I don't doubt he will go down quick. I doubt he will go down quick with a controlled tanking strategy. IF he is tuned classicly yes.

It sounds like he needs more ATK and higher AC to make this happen.

He will either be charm killed or mass zerged.

Rampage, TMO, Taken, BDA, and Gimpatron can all field 80+ man forces with known windows. When AoW is up and a guild is likely to wipe on a tank swap or charm break, you can bet vultures will be circling ready to swoop on.

I wouldn't be shocked at all if the first kill occurs when one guild wipes at 50% and the next gets FTE before it Regens and goes the rest of the distance. Infact I fully expect that to become a common place strategy on many mobs. Pressure the competition to jump early and wipe, then snipe FTE and get a mob with a chunk of its health already gone. Trakanon already works like this, so too will many Velious mobs.

[Littlegyno 13.0]

I don't doubt he will go down quick. I doubt he will go down quick with a controlled tanking strategy. IF he is tuned classicly yes.

It sounds like he needs more ATK and higher AC to make this happen.

He will either be charm killed or mass zerged.

Rampage, TMO, Taken, BDA, and Gimpatron can all field 80+ man forces with known windows. When AoW is up and a guild is likely to wipe on a tank swap or charm break, you can bet vultures will be circling ready to swoop on.

I wouldn't be shocked at all if the first kill occurs when one guild wipes at 50% and the next gets FTE before it Regens and goes the rest of the distance. Infact I fully expect that to become a common place strategy on many mobs. Pressure the competition to jump early and wipe, then snipe FTE and get a mob with a chunk of its health already gone. Trakanon already works like this, so too will many Velious mobs.

god dats sick.

[Daldaen]

god dats sick.

The sickness is real.

However it is nothing compared to your typical Red player who derives their only joy from the game by disrupting and ruining others play time. Why else would people get fungi/epic twinked Alts and sit in dungeons PKing noobs in cloth?

Not to mention the rampant racist and homophobic slurs slung around by your typical red player. The fact that you need code words for these slurs because GMs started suspending over their use is evidence of a true sickness.

[Colgate]

and blue has people who sit there ducking call of the hero for upwards of 16 hours to get a low-tier mob like talendor

UR MOVE DAWG

[Daldaen]

Would rather be on a server with those afflicted by a sickness that drives them to stare at a wall for 16 hours for bad loot, and end up wasting their own time. Rather than a server where an equivalent amount of time is spent by a player gearing out and twinking an alt for the sole purpose of griefing new players, thereby wasting others time just so that they can get some amount of satisfaction besting a cloth wearing newbie with their fungi+Ragebringer.

They don't duck cast CotH anymore. They just stare at a wall now.

[Arteker]

im with the taken guy, want true red? wipe it clean so people start from 0 and we will see true pvp and not people farming shit in blue to buy shit in red .

Mental note, find the SS of my killing 2 rogue twinks with epics and fungys with my stupid lvl 35 paladin with fineplate and a baton of faith. to shove it into Goredbetwink.org.com

[Rais]

The AoW kills in Velious were almost all done with charmed Giants tanking, not warriors.

Wrong. We rotated warriors out with rangers using weapon shield in between warriors switching/gain agro/get heal chain on them. He was killed only 2 times in Velious.


Yes Daldaen, but that is not a reason to make him arbitrarily harder "because players killing the AoW isn't classic". We know his DI/DB and cooldown, give him a good amount of ATK and high AC (I agree its not nearly high enough when Rogues are doing 70 dps) and see what happens.

Koros and I are pretty sure that if he's classically tuned he's going to go down very rapidly; you and Treats are not. Make him classic and we'll find out.



Wrong again. The Ac gains/Hps/items from sleepers/tov are what provided the ability to kill him. Not some zerg using super internet with theory quested numbers thinking they know what the encounter was like. It pains me seeing your posts saying how things should be, when you have never even been there in the first place to see.

[pasi]

For what its worth, VZTZ2.0 PoSky basically had a mob that was a death touching Avatar of War with less HP/AC. It was killed by a bunch of us at 50 with classic pet aggro. The idea being that it doesn't matter if a mob hits for 1000 or 6000, if it can only kill a single target (in other words, no AE) every ~2 seconds, you can kill it with enough pets provided it doesn't outregen the damage output.

This is how close to how Rallos Zek killed Kera (substituting pet deaths/summonings with player deaths/cleric epics) who was un-tankable even with Stonewall.

The numbers aren't made up and the encounter isn't anything more than those numbers directed at a single player. That's all. Y'all are over-complicating this.

I agree with the fact that there is a possibility for human error. However, you can keep a defensive tank up against Avatar of War with a 1 second CHeal rotation. We ran 1 second CHeal rotations with Rallos in PoTime and some other encounters, they aren't outside the realm of median player skill. Human error is very much accounted for in the fact that the default attack speed is much greater than 1 second (or at least should be) and the tank will frequently be able to take 2 rounds without eating it. Or do we really believe that there aren't a dozen or more players on this server who can reliably count to 1 with a 1 second margin of error?

This is going to sound elitist, but fuck it, we've had 10 of these threads: I really wish that I could still view this game in the same mystical way many of you do. I see Avatar of War and I see a mob who has an unslowable mob capable of quads + flurries with a DB of 254 and a DI of 45. Now, you may tell stories at Thanksgiving Dinner of your suspenseful encounters with this mythical creature, but it doesn't change the fact that the dude is an unslowable mob capable of quads + flurries with a DB of 254 and a DI of 45. Got a tank who can survive a round of that? Great. Got enough clerics to make sure the tank is only taking 1 round between CHeals? Awesome. Got some mages to keep the mana going? Perfect. Let's do some work.

Anyhow, I got dragged into another one of these. For the interest of my Nostralis dude, I'm done with this til the next thread in a few months.

[HalflingWarrior]

The bigger issue is people actually killing AoW.

100-man zergforces who've had ***FOUR YEARS*** plus to farm VP. Velious is trivial before it's even been released.

On my live server no guild even set foot in VP before Velious was released while this server will feature entire raid forces of people with full BIS VP items.

Would love to see a new blue server open up!

[HalflingWarrior]

and blue has people who sit there ducking call of the hero for upwards of 16 hours to get a low-tier mob like talendor

UR MOVE DAWG

Your server has had TWO known and confirmed homocidal sociopaths


UR MOVE DAWG

[Ele]

Would love to see a new blue server open up!

[Nirgon]

Sounds like Rogean wants to open a Discord server

Who among you is brave enough to fight the Avatar with me there

[koros]

Wrong. We rotated warriors out with rangers using weapon shield in between warriors switching/gain agro/get heal chain on them. He was killed only 2 times in Velious.



Wrong again. The Ac gains/Hps/items from sleepers/tov are what provided the ability to kill him. Not some zerg using super internet with theory quested numbers thinking they know what the encounter was like. It pains me seeing your posts saying how things should be, when you have never even been there in the first place to see.

We already know the AC did absolutely 0 vs what we have here. I've already calculated the probabilities of his putting out enough damage to one round a tank with some very conservative estimates. I don't know what else to add to convey that point.

[Rais]

You're missing the point. I confirmed that warriors weren't one shotted. Most were, but Furor had the best gear, and our 2nd main tank had just about the same amount of gear to tank also without being killed outright. I didn't say anything about just someone tanking him. I'm talking a collected effort of an entire raid force with increased stats from end game zones of ToV and Sleepers to be able to kill AoW by the end of Velious. I will say he will be killed way sooner than he was on live, because of the different tactics, sheer numbers of people in a guild and things still being different than it was on live.

You can throw 60 ragebringer rogue alts but if their attack/stats aren't up to par it won't do shit to his hps/regen/how long the fight will be. This is combining items from ToV, Primals, haste items, better item BiS items at the end. I want to say if there wasn't an update and change in stats to most ToV items, AoW would haven't been killed before the expansion ended "legitly". Maybe I have the time line from tov upgrades and AoW kill that we and LoS did before the expansion ended mixed up, but I don't think so.

Just saying over all throwing numbers at a mob doesn't mean you can kill it just because of numbers. The best way to describe AoW at the start of Velious was like 100 lvl 20s attacking Brother Quinn and being killed pretty damn fast. It totally changed at the end with everyone geared up.

[Daldaen]

Using charmed mobs is legit :(.

[koros]

You're missing the point. I confirmed that warriors weren't one shotted. Most were, but Furor had the best gear, and our 2nd main tank had just about the same amount of gear to tank also without being killed outright. I didn't say anything about just someone tanking him. I'm talking a collected effort of an entire raid force with increased stats from end game zones of ToV and Sleepers to be able to kill AoW by the end of Velious. I will say he will be killed way sooner than he was on live, because of the different tactics, sheer numbers of people in a guild and things still being different than it was on live.

You can throw 60 ragebringer rogue alts but if their attack/stats aren't up to par it won't do shit to his hps/regen/how long the fight will be. This is combining items from ToV, Primals, haste items, better item BiS items at the end. I want to say if there wasn't an update and change in stats to most ToV items, AoW would haven't been killed before the expansion ended "legitly". Maybe I have the time line from tov upgrades and AoW kill that we and LoS did before the expansion ended mixed up, but I don't think so.

Just saying over all throwing numbers at a mob doesn't mean you can kill it just because of numbers. The best way to describe AoW at the start of Velious was like 100 lvl 20s attacking Brother Quinn and being killed pretty damn fast. It totally changed at the end with everyone geared up.

I bet you're right that AoW wouldn't have died then. But he would have died now given the same conditions. Your collective upgrades over the course of the expansion made a big difference on being able to kill AEing mobs with fewer people, but AoW is probably something of a rare case because he was melee only as has been pointed out.

As for your rogue point... I think this almost highlights my argument. Velious was particularly marginal to rogue dps upgrades. Backstab dps was static throughout the expansion. You saw maybe a 20%-25% dps across the board, mostly because of avatar. That means that 60 Kunark RB rogues, none of whom have avatar on in this example, is equal to 48 of your BiS end game Velious rogues.

[Treats]

That means that 60 Kunark RB rogues, none of whom have avatar on in this example, is equal to 48 of your BiS end game Velious rogues.

This is laughable at best, I don't think you understand how ATK vs AC should work.

AoW would explode with 48 BiS end game Velious Rogues on this server lol.

[koros]

First off it's only 133 atk. Second, do you really think the programmer VI hired in 1997 actually did a normal distribution of atk vs ac or something similar? I'm certain it was a linear model.

[Raev]

AoW would explode with 48 BiS end game Velious Rogues on this server lol.

You can throw 60 ragebringer rogue alts but if their attack/stats aren't up to par it won't do shit to his hps/regen/how long the fight will be. This is combining items from ToV, Primals, haste items, better item BiS items at the end.

How do those NToV BiS items even matter? Every rogue will have 40% haste and 255 STR, and the HP/resists are pointless as he doesn't AE. Backstab damage doesn't go up, so the only difference will be Avatar and better ratios. If we are conservative and say that Kunark rogues will do 2/3 as much damage . . . bring 50% more rogues.

This is going to sound elitist, but fuck it, we've had 10 of these threads: I really wish that I could still view this game in the same mystical way many of you do. I see Avatar of War and I see a mob who has an unslowable mob capable of quads + flurries with a DB of 254 and a DI of 45. Now, you may tell stories at Thanksgiving Dinner of your suspenseful encounters with this mythical creature, but it doesn't change the fact that the dude is an unslowable mob capable of quads + flurries with a DB of 254 and a DI of 45. Got a tank who can survive a round of that? Great. Got enough clerics to make sure the tank is only taking 1 round between CHeals? Awesome. Got some mages to keep the mana going? Perfect. Let's do some work.

This. The Avatar of War is, conceptually, a trivial tank and spank fight. He has big numbers, but that just means you need more people.

[wycca]

How do those NToV BiS items even matter? Every rogue will have 40% haste and 255 STR, and the HP/resists are pointless as he doesn't AE. Backstab damage doesn't go up, so the only difference will be Avatar and better ratios. If we are conservative and say that Kunark rogues will do 2/3 as much damage . . . bring 50% more rogues.



This. The Avatar of War is, conceptually, a trivial tank and spank fight. He has big numbers, but that just means you need more people.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Gary-Oldman-Yelling-Everyone-Leon-The-Professional.gif

https://youtu.be/74BzSTQCl_c

[Treats]

First off it's only 133 atk. Second, do you really think the programmer VI hired in 1997 actually did a normal distribution of atk vs ac or something similar? I'm certain it was a linear model.

What you are saying is that 5 Rogues with 15/25 Main, 14/23 Offhand, no Aura of Battle, and no Avatar was equal to 4 Rogues with 15/19 Main, 15/20 Offhand, multiple Aura of Battles, and Avatar for the FULL DURATION of the fight.

Yes, it was normal distribution.

As mitigation AC overwhelms efficiency ATK, the distribution is shifted to the left (the mean is decreased), and as efficiency ATK overwhelms mitigation AC, the distribution is shifted to the right (the mean is increased).

I don't believe it was possible for ATK to overtake any bosses mitigation AC in Velious, not until Planes of Power when the caps were raised. Even then it may not have.

Backstab damage doesn't go up, so the only difference will be Avatar and better ratios.

How exactly does Backstab damage not go up with increased ATK??

[Ele]

How exactly does Backstab damage not go up with increased ATK??

I believe he is referring to the maximum damage amount you can backstab, but +attack will allow you to hit for maximum more often.

(edit out wacky formula)

[koros]

I believe he is referring to the maximum damage amount you can backstab, but +attack will allow you to hit for maximum more often.

Backstab uses a weapon damage multiplier of: 2 + (Skill * 0.02).
((Offense + (Str up to 200) + (str over 200 / 5)) * WepDmg * Mult) / 100

With Ragebringer or any other 15 damage weapon:
((252 + 200 + (55 / 5)) * 15 * (2 + (225 * 0.02))) / 100 = 451.42500

Indeed that's what I'm saying. Also, that formula can't be right. It should be 553 max. Burned into my memory from years of maining a rogue.

RE: Got One
Quote
Reply
#Sep 14 2002 at 3:17 AMRating: Decent
Derrict
Scholar
**
627 posts
Neq is correct. There is no way for a normal 700+ BS with an RB w/o using duelist. Max BS with a 15 dmg poker @ 60 is ~ 553 (no crit). It's possible to BS ~ 1000-1500 with a crit, though.

April 4th, 2002 08:51 AM #58
Znail vh
Guest
Re: Info

Quote by Aerimus:
------------------------------------------------------------
Max dmg without an uber +bs skill weapon during duelist is 1106 I'll assume the average is somewhere 1/2 max or 553 as with all melee.
------------------------------------------------------------

[koros]

What you are saying is that 5 Rogues with 15/25 Main, 14/23 Offhand, no Aura of Battle, and no Avatar was equal to 4 Rogues with 15/19 Main, 15/20 Offhand, multiple Aura of Battles, and Avatar for the FULL DURATION of the fight.

Yes, it was normal distribution.

As mitigation AC overwhelms efficiency ATK, the distribution is shifted to the left (the mean is decreased), and as efficiency ATK overwhelms mitigation AC, the distribution is shifted to the right (the mean is increased).

I don't believe it was possible for ATK to overtake any bosses mitigation AC in Velious, not until Planes of Power when the caps were raised. Even then it may not have.



How exactly does Backstab damage not go up with increased ATK??

No parses have ever shown atk/vs ac was normally distributed or even close. It was linear or logarithmic.

[Ele]

Indeed that's what I'm saying. Also, that formula can't be right. It should be 553 max. Burned into my memory from years of maining a rogue.


Formula was hastily copied from wiki. :o

Some of the other 553 BS threads:
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60673
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120264

[nilbog]

Still had enraging blow

Fixed, pending update.

[Littlegyno 13.0]

Fixed, pending update.

gat dayum i fucking love u lady angel nilberg.

[Detoxx]

Fixed, pending update.

Being the only person in possession of this item, i officially hate
nirgon and nilbog. Although i kno nilbog is loving this, i still must express my lament for this situation.

In b4 madbadfatsad

[koros]

What you are saying is that 5 Rogues with 15/25 Main, 14/23 Offhand, no Aura of Battle, and no Avatar was equal to 4 Rogues with 15/19 Main, 15/20 Offhand, multiple Aura of Battles, and Avatar for the FULL DURATION of the fight.

Yes, it was normal distribution.

As mitigation AC overwhelms efficiency ATK, the distribution is shifted to the left (the mean is decreased), and as efficiency ATK overwhelms mitigation AC, the distribution is shifted to the right (the mean is increased).

I don't believe it was possible for ATK to overtake any bosses mitigation AC in Velious, not until Planes of Power when the caps were raised. Even then it may not have.



How exactly does Backstab damage not go up with increased ATK??

You seem to be confounding a probability distribution and a cumulative probability distribution.

What you describe in your normal distribution example is a plot of frequency of hits vs damage. In that case, yes atk/ac does alter the skewness of the distribution. But it is NOT a plot of atk vs ac.

You don't "overcome" a mobs ac to find some happy place of high hits. In fact, using your claim that the hit probability distribution is normal, the math requires the effects of atk vs ac to have no inflection points.

edit: corrected final part

[wycca]

Being the only person in possession of this item, i officially hate
nirgon and nilbog. Although i kno nilbog is loving this, i still must express my lament for this situation.

In b4 madbadfatsad

I've always thought that, when it comes to items/quests/mobs existing as of Luclin launch, that any updates should be upgraded per a post-Luclin timeline up through about the end of PoP. They are, after all, going back to tweak Velious content to be more in-line with their game's vision. This would exclude massive tweaks (ie CT 2.0, PoM, as much as I'd like to see that zone), but would include things like AoW item ugprades, etc.

[Daldaen]

Being the only person in possession of this item, i officially hate
nirgon and nilbog. Although i kno nilbog is loving this, i still must express my lament for this situation.

In b4 madbadfatsad

Anichek has one...

[Ele]

Being the only person in possession of this item, i officially hate
nirgon and nilbog. Although i kno nilbog is loving this, i still must express my lament for this situation.

In b4 madbadfatsad


I don't even get a mention? :(

Blade of Carnage sucks (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106708&highlight=blade+carnage+sucks)

[Raev]

Second, do you really thinkSecond, do you really think the programmer VI hired in 1997 actually did a normal distribution of atk vs ac or something similar? I'm certain it was a linear model. the programmer VI hired in 1997 actually did a normal distribution of atk vs ac or something similar? I'm certain it was a linear model.

I'm not sure what you mean when you are talking about the normal distribution. I don't see why ATK vs AC is even a probability distribution; its just a function of two variables returning either the average hit or a distribution over hits.

I guess what Treats is trying to say is that the incremental value of ATK should be higher when the AC of the target is higher, i.e. Avatar will give you +15% dps vs trash mobs (say 85 -> 100) but +30% dps or whatnot vs bosses (say 50 -> 65).

Of course, its still a dumb argument because even if Avatar + Vulak Weapons + 3x Aura of Battle was 2x damage, we'd still just bring 2x the rogues. Because the Avatar of War has no AOE, he's extremely vulnerable to being zerged.

[koros]

I'm not sure what you mean when you are talking about the normal distribution. I don't see why ATK vs AC is even a probability distribution; its just a function of two variables returning either the average hit or a distribution over hits.

I guess what Treats is trying to say is that the incremental value of ATK should be higher when the AC of the target is higher, i.e. Avatar will give you +15% dps vs trash mobs (say 85 -> 100) but +30% dps or whatnot vs bosses (say 50 -> 65).

Of course, its still a dumb argument because even if Avatar + Vulak Weapons + 3x Aura of Battle was 2x damage, we'd still just bring 2x the rogues. Because the Avatar of War has no AOE, he's extremely vulnerable to being zerged.

I worded that part poorly. I was referring to the surface created by atk vs ac vs average hit. Still, the implication of the arguments against what I said was that the benefits of extra attack, while attack < ac, are exponential and not linear/algorithmic. Regardless. I think we've all made our points.

I too would rather them err on the side of hard than easy. But I'd like it to be remembered accurately in case someone comes and uses this servers boards as a base for code in another 16 years.

[pasi]

I think it makes a lot more sense looking at the DPS of a raid instead of individuals.

From a sheer DPS standpoint, a raid with 30 Kunark rogues, 1 necro, 1 ranger, 1 monk, 1 wizard, 1 mage, 1 paladin, and 1 SK will outdps a Velious geared raid of 6 rogues, 4 necros, 5 rangers, 6 monks, 5 wizards, 5 mages, 3 paladins, and 3 SKs.

From a sheer DPS standpoint, your BiS ranger can upgrade his DPS by rerolling an epic rogue. Much like druids can go beyond 60 by simply leveling a cleric to 39.

It's an interesting argument to make, but I would bet that the raid TMO can field on day 1 is going to have much higher DPS than what any guild was capable of on Day 0 of Shadows of Luclin due to class optimization and more raiders.

[pasi]

And not having dial-up modems, shitty graphics cards, unreliable voice communication, chat parsers for anything you want to flag. Modern raiding isn't the lore and excitement it used to be, it's trying to get programs to read a script so players can think less and "win" more. By sheer knowledge of the environment and capability of equipment (not pixels, stuff that has electricity running through it), every thing on this server is cake compared to what it was before. Some nostalgidiots will sit here and say plenty of guilds in Kunark were just training the entire PoF fear zone and zerging CT, every time they killed him! But we all know that's complete bullshit.

I agree with this for most things.

For DPS classes though, player knowledge, skill, and connection don't do a whole ton. You aren't going to see much of a difference in ability to autoattack and press a button every couple seconds. No doubt there are small things for minimal gains, but overall, shits the same.

[Nirgon]

Worn aura of battle shouldn't stack on our timeline, ja? Just a clicked version (like from shield) + 1 worn

[Raev]

Look, it's not insulting to people who played this back in the day that we are better now. We've had 4 years to play with this stuff.

[Daldaen]

Worn aura of battle shouldn't stack on our timeline, ja? Just a clicked version (like from shield) + 1 worn

Do you have evidence of this? I know theres evidence on Flowing Thought not stacking, haven't seen it on Auras.

But I didn't play a melee DPS class during this era so ????

[wycca]

Do you have evidence of this? I know theres evidence on Flowing Thought not stacking, haven't seen it on Auras.

But I didn't play a melee DPS class during this era so ????

My understanding was that in this era, up to 5x aura of battle stacked. Could be wrong though.

[Arteker]

Worn aura of battle shouldn't stack on our timeline, ja? Just a clicked version (like from shield) + 1 worn

Aura of battle can stack up to 5 times, changed when they implemented aas and used as example when people begin to question how they changed .

and this only speaking of the worn aura , dracolich 2,0 fearsome shield cliky will not stack either with firefist,(in my case as paladin i had berserker ring) or chestplate of fiery might cliky or daing ring or regular rege spells.casted from shaman , druid, they sued to do with paladin divine purpose

not gonna do ur work but if u want to know how it worked, go search steel warrior forum and the thread vengeance items versus aura of battle.
little edit, worn cap pf rege was 35. and atk was 250(this included aura of battle items, avatar , and ranger buffs and yaul and some enc hastes).

[Daldaen]

Worn caps were worn effects only. They didn't inckude buffs

[jpetrick]

It makes me really sad that Ele had to point out that this sword sucks ass during Velious. Give warriors some love, it's a lot of work holding aggro on this server.

[Daldaen]

Willsapper and BotBD are good enough aggro for any warrior.

[Arteker]

It makes me really sad that Ele had to point out that this sword sucks ass during Velious. Give warriors some love, it's a lot of work holding aggro on this server.

she could gimme some credit for given him this info years ago, grrr:p

[Arteker]

Worn caps were worn effects only. They didn't inckude buffs

in the case of avatar i can say safely, it will not add atk if u allready have the 250 atk limit.

this existed for some and was one the main reasons avatar as a atk factor was dead because people would just ask for ranger and bst buffs and mixed with aura of battle vengance, bravery and other stuff would allready fill the cap of 250

[Arteker]

Worn caps were worn effects only. They didn't inckude buffs

and if u want to have some fun u should research the limits for rege ticks spells in druidsgroove , i can safely say if u manage to do it u will piss whole iksar race , and many people will be happy.

[Daldaen]

and if u want to have some fun u should research the limits for rege ticks spells in druidsgroove , i can safely say if u manage to do it u will piss whole iksar race , and many people will be happy.

Regen had a worn limit.

Racial and spell stacked with worn and with each other.

The one thing about regen spells was they didn't stack with each other. Torpor, Celestial Elixir and Shadowbond should not stack with Regrowth until 2 months into Velious.

For the first month of Velious, Celestial Healing and Celestial Elixir stacked too!

And ima need some evidence on Avatar not stacking the ATK, cause i know during PoP we had Rangers with 250 worn ATK, whom would get Ferine Avatar and it would increase their bow burns.

[Treats]

Processed Avatar is factored into the 250 ATK Cap, don't think any other spell is.

Not quite sure about casted Avatar.

[koros]

Casted avatar didn't count towards the cap. It was only worn +atk and procced avatar. Not achievable during Velious tho

[Arteker]

Regen had a worn limit.

Racial and spell stacked with worn and with each other.

The one thing about regen spells was they didn't stack with each other. Torpor, Celestial Elixir and Shadowbond should not stack with Regrowth until 2 months into Velious.

For the first month of Velious, Celestial Healing and Celestial Elixir stacked too!

And ima need some evidence on Avatar not stacking the ATK, cause i know during PoP we had Rangers with 250 worn ATK, whom would get Ferine Avatar and it would increase their bow burns.

it does not stack, but beastlord atk series ferocity savagery and faerine did . in pop during 2004 they lifted the atk restrictions. by uncoming expansions was not weird see 2000+ atk people , back then , what they did was apply a cap to lvl atk and rege to prevent mega twinks but become obsolete due to augmentations system developed ind ragons of norrath .

for me as paladin and a great user of my old brawls tick was a sad day when by end of luclin i had to bank it

[Treats]

Casted avatar didn't count towards the cap. It was only worn +atk and procced avatar. Not achievable during Velious tho

Yeah, casted Avatar didn't count.

The 250 ATK cap may be achievable during Velious, it depends if STR-ATK was included and if Aura of Battle was stackable.

Avatar - 100 ATK
255 STR (520-150)/3 - 120 ATK
3x Aura of Battle - 30 ATK

250 ATK cap

[azeth]

Yeah, casted Avatar didn't count.

The 250 ATK cap may be achievable during Velious, it depends if STR-ATK was included and if Aura of Battle was stackable.

Avatar - 100 ATK
255 STR (520-150)/3 - 120 ATK
3x Aura of Battle - 30 ATK

250 ATK cap

Since when does AoB stack?

[koros]

Yeah, casted Avatar didn't count.

The 250 ATK cap may be achievable during Velious, it depends if STR-ATK was included and if Aura of Battle was stackable.

Avatar - 100 ATK
255 STR (520-150)/3 - 120 ATK
3x Aura of Battle - 30 ATK

250 ATK cap

Str didn't count.

[koros]

Since when does AoB stack?

Since always. As long as it was (worn)

[azeth]

Since always. As long as it was (worn)

gotcha.

[Daldaen]

Yeah, casted Avatar didn't count.

The 250 ATK cap may be achievable during Velious, it depends if STR-ATK was included and if Aura of Battle was stackable.

Avatar - 100 ATK
255 STR (520-150)/3 - 120 ATK
3x Aura of Battle - 30 ATK

250 ATK cap

Ranger Swiftwind and Rogue Ragebringer are each 40 ATK as well.

But I would love to see the sources/discussion in era on the worn ATK+Spell ATK being hard capped at 250 total addition. Cause... I have never heard of this before. I only had heard of 250 ATK WORN Cap in PoP.

[Treats]

Ranger Swiftwind and Rogue Ragebringer are each 40 ATK as well.

But I would love to see the sources/discussion in era on the worn ATK+Spell ATK being hard capped at 250 total addition. Cause... I have never heard of this before. I only had heard of 250 ATK WORN Cap in PoP.

Only Avatar Proc on Primal goes into the 250 Worn ATK, no spell that is casted is counted into this cap.

[wycca]

I believe the atk cap was added later. Someone should probably do some serious research - fairly sure Velious had no caps aside from 5x AoB (which doesnt matter here) given that the itemization provided its own limit.

[koros]

I believe the atk cap was added later. Someone should probably do some serious research - fairly sure Velious had no caps aside from 5x AoB (which doesnt matter here) given that the itemization provided its own limit.

Can anyone source that 5X AoB cap? You couldn't even get 5 AoB items in Velious afaik.

Also I'm unaware of any mentions of the 250 cap in Velious, especially since it couldn't be reached. It was definitely around in Luclin, as I think they realized they done fucked up giving people practically irreplaceable weapons w/ Primal.

[Treats]

Str is not relative to raw atk, on live str based atk was worth about 10% of worn atk of the same figure.

I thought this for a long time also but it wasn't right.

Raw ATK only refers the actual number, the client displays ATK as 4/3.

100 ATK = 133 ATK displayed in client

You only get ATK from STR over 75

((STR*2)-150) / 3)

[Arteker]

Can anyone source that 5X AoB cap? You couldn't even get 5 AoB items in Velious afaik.

Also I'm unaware of any mentions of the 250 cap in Velious, especially since it couldn't be reached. It was definitely around in Luclin, as I think they realized they done fucked up giving people practically irreplaceable weapons w/ Primal.

you are 100% right that was one of the main reasons ac scaled so big in luclin , pop, for mobs . and it was kinda controversial , and why aow challange in luclin by vexthal guild was kinda a gimp

i know my english is bad so will copy paste a better english explanation of how worn effects worked, note than FT underweared a full rework unlike other worn effects.

Most everyone knows that flowing thought stacks up to 15. However there are a lot of other equipment effects that I have no idea if they stack, if ones of the same level stack, and if there is a limit similar to the ft15.

Off the top of my head:

Vengence (+5 to attk)--I believe there is a limit to how many but no idea what it is.

Aura of Battle (+10 to attack and 2hp per tick regen)--I know for this one that the clickable ones give a buff icon so only one of those works but that the worns ones supposedly stack with this and with each other--any limit though

Regeneration (1 hp regen a tick)--since there are these new numbered regeneration effects I assume they work similarly to flowing thought but I assume there is a limit as well. Also how about stacking with other regen effects, both pure regen like fungal regrowth, the effect called simply regeneration that is 5hp a tick, etc and mixed effects like the above mentioned aura of battle?

Aura of Health--I thought there was an effect named this but now I don't see it in lucy

Aura of Courage (+10 attk and 1hp per tick)

Aura of Daring (+20 attk and 2hp per tick)

Aura of Bravery (+30 attk and 3hp per tick)

Composure (3hp per tick and 3 mana per tick)

There are probably more that I am not thinking of with worn effects. Anyone know about stacking issues with these or limits to how high they stack?

Also a related question--SoE has stated that skill mod items for trade skills don't stack but what about having two items with +% dodge modifiers for example?
Palarran
10-18-2003, 02:56 PM
All worn effects stack (in the sense that they don't block each other due to stacking rules, although specific types of effects like haste won't add together--think of a pre-vallon haste spell and the monk epic for example; the two effects will take hold but only one haste will work). There are limits on worn effects though:

35 hp/tick regen
15 mana/tick regen
250 atk (oddly the avatar proc from a primal weapon counts towards this total).

Focus effects and skill modifiers are not covered by the above. Skill modifiers do not stack, whether for tradeskills or not. Focus effects follow normal stacking rules (though a spell will stack with a permanent focus effect and AA's). Supposedly the special plane of time effects (avoidance, strikethrough, etc.) all stack.

Note at this momment eq still keep names to worn effects wich later was changed to xxx atk xxx regeneration.....

for the FT discussion this thread show you some

https://www.project1999.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-79881.html

[wycca]

Can anyone source that 5X AoB cap? You couldn't even get 5 AoB items in Velious afaik.

Also I'm unaware of any mentions of the 250 cap in Velious, especially since it couldn't be reached. It was definitely around in Luclin, as I think they realized they done fucked up giving people practically irreplaceable weapons w/ Primal.

I was going to source it, but there aren't 5x AoB items in Velious, so there is no point.

The first mention of the 250 cap was post-velious, and when it went in there was a ton of discussion about how proc'd primal was now part of that cap whereas cast was not.

Up until that point, I don't believe there was an ATK cap (it was limited by the items available).

Not sure it matters on P99 at this time unless we discovered there is a cap that can be hit. Spells were never part of that, so you'd have to find 251atk worth of worn items to prove it - it simply isn't out there. You're limited to like 170 at best I think.

3x AoB = 30atk
Rng/Rog = 40atk from epics
Avatar = 100atk - (this never counted during Velious, I'm simply including it because even with it, it doesn't matter if we have a 250atk cap on p99 because you can't hit 250)

No str attack never counted.

The 250atk cap should be irrelevant on P99 whether it is coded or not at this time - you can't hit it. The only thing that should be checked is to make sure FT is not stacking and AoB is stacking.

[Treats]

I'm not sure what you mean when you are talking about the normal distribution. I don't see why ATK vs AC is even a probability distribution; its just a function of two variables returning either the average hit or a distribution over hits.

I guess what Treats is trying to say is that the incremental value of ATK should be higher when the AC of the target is higher, i.e. Avatar will give you +15% dps vs trash mobs (say 85 -> 100) but +30% dps or whatnot vs bosses (say 50 -> 65).

Of course, its still a dumb argument because even if Avatar + Vulak Weapons + 3x Aura of Battle was 2x damage, we'd still just bring 2x the rogues. Because the Avatar of War has no AOE, he's extremely vulnerable to being zerged.

Armor Class = AC Mitigation + AC Avoidance
Attack = ATK Accuracy + ATK Efficiency

Atk Accuracy vs AC Avoidance
Atk Efficiency vs AC Mitigation

I'm not sure what is used for both of these:

Atk Accuracy = Weapon Skill + Offense
Atk Efficiency = STR(atk) + ATK spells + Aura of Battle etc

If this were the case Avatar would effectively double your ATK efficiency, even moreso if you did not already have max STR. Comparing a BiS Velious vs BiS Kunark geared raid force, you would most likely need to triple the numbers of the Kunark force to achieve the same DPS.

[koros]

Where on earth are you drawing these ridiculous numbers/equations from? Avatar was like +10-15% dps, I had a rogue with a primal and I parsed all the damn time.

The old rule of thumb that everyone used was 10 atk = 1% dps increase.

[Uuruk]

http://web.archive.org/web/20020828095215im_/http://legacyofsteel.net/images/screenshots/july/7_13/aow_health.jpg

http://web.archive.org/web/20020305074530im_/http://legacyofsteel.net/images/screenshots/july/7_27/AoWFirstKill.jpg

They absolutely zerged him.

They couldn't tank Avatar of War with NToV shit and didn't UNTIL RIGHT BEFORE THE NEXT FUCKING EXPANSION.

It boggles my mind how some of you think he could be killable in BiS Kunark gear.

They were probably just bads that had no clue what they were doing I guess.

There was a 8 month gap between kunark and velious on live not 4 years. Do people seriously not get the impact this has had?

[wycca]

Also, repeating LoS's kill on P99 is not possible. Why? They've already implemented the restricted binding in Kael.

[Treats]

There was a 8 month gap between kunark and velious on live not 4 years. Do people seriously not get the impact this has had?

What Best in Slot Kunark items/weapons (besides Epic/PD Loot) are you using in Velious?

Where on earth are you drawing these ridiculous numbers/equations from? Avatar was like +10-15% dps, I had a rogue with a primal and I parsed all the damn time.

The old rule of thumb that everyone used was 10 atk = 1% dps increase.

For some reason you are still under the assumption the distribution is Linear which it is not.

What ridiculous numbers/equations are you talking about?

Total Attack = ATK Accuracy + ATK Efficiency
Total AC = AC Avoidance + AC Mitigation

All NPCs have differing AC Avoidance and AC Mitigation.

The higher the disparity between ATK Efficiency and AC Mitigation, the further the distribution is shifted. It is not just 10 atk = 1% dps, lol.

I would parse Avatar of War on a Level 60 (Live Test Server) with and without Avatar/Velious weapons but I don't have access to any high level characters.

[pasi]

I think he's wondering where you're pulling your figures from. The concepts aren't the misunderstanding, the numbers that are being plugged in are.

[dbouya]

in 2001 VP was so tricky to figure out that when velious released we'd only cleared it a few times rather than being fully vp geared, I do thing it will make a difference.

Also in 2001 people couldn't zerg because after you brought 100 players to a raid either some of your players would lag out or the sony zone server would crash.