Necromancer Lich + Demi-Lich

[Daldaen]

These spells are currently not draining enough HP. In classic they would drain more.

P99 Lich - Drains 22HP/Tick
P99 Demi-Lich - Drains 32HP/Tick

Classic Lich - Drains 32HP/Tick
Classic Demi-Lich - Drains 48HP/Tick

Evidence:

EQCaster's Realm 2001 (https://web.archive.org/web/20020305082533/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=472)

Actual Effects:
Self: Illusion: Skeleton
Self: Increase Mana by 20 (L49)
Self: Decrease Hit Points (HP) by 32 (L49)

HP TO MANA RATIO, By Truk (1/28/2001)

This spell gives you 20 Mana for 32 Hp, it is not a 1:1 ratio like many ppl think.


EQCaster's Realm 2001 (https://web.archive.org/web/20010418040445/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=512)

Actual Effects:
Self: Ultravision
Self: Turn Into Skeleton
Self: Lose 48 Hitpoints
Self: Gain 31 Mana

The Patch File from November 30, 2000 also supports these values. When I get home I'll pull those spell parses and post them here.

[Daldaen]

Lucy Spell Data History - Lich (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=644&source=Live)

2006-10-02 22:39 Changed Slot 7 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 22 per tick" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 32 per tick"
2003-04-23 11:08 Added Slot 7: Decrease Hitpoints by 32 per tick
2003-04-23 11:08 Removed Slot 3: Decrease Hitpoints by 32 per tick


Lucy Spell Data History - Demi Lich (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=1611&source=Live)

It wasn't until 2006 when Demi Lich got changed to have 32 HP Degeneration. This is even after it was changed to a level 56 spell:

2006-09-27 12:11 Changed Slot 7 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 48 per tick" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 32 per tick"
2003-04-23 11:08 Added Slot 7: Decrease Hitpoints by 48 per tick
2003-04-23 11:08 Removed Slot 3: Decrease Hitpoints by 48 per tick

Both of these show the classic HP drain components in 2003 getting swapped spell slots. Then in 2006 the drain value was reduced to the values we currently have on P99.

[Ele]

Here are the Nov. 29, 2000 SPdat entries

Lich
Illusion: Skeleton
Increase Mana by 20 (L49)
Decrease Hit Points (HP) by 32 (L49)
Ultravision


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: Nec (L49)

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Area Effect Range: 1 feet

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Skill: Alteration
Allowable Targets: Self

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mana Required: 5
Spell Duration: Unknown
Duration Formula: 10
Casting Time: 3.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.25 seconds
Recast Delay: 6.0 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell cast on you: You feel the skin peel from your bones.
Spell cast on someone: Soandso's skin peels away.
Spell fades: Your flesh returns.

Demi Lich
Illusion: Skeleton
Increase Mana by 31 (L60)
Decrease Hit Points (HP) by 48 (L60)
Ultravision


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: Nec (L60)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Area Effect Range: 1 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Alteration
Allowable Targets: Self

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mana Required: 1
Spell Duration: Unknown
Duration Formula: 10
Casting Time: 2.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.25 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell cast on you: You feel the skin peel from your bones.
Spell cast on someone: Soandso's skin peels away.
Spell fades: Your flesh returns.

[Technique]

p99's spell file uses the classic values for both spells.

The discrepancy you're seeing ingame is due to PvP damage reduction being applied.

Haynar: Added PvP damage reduction to apply to dots performed on self. Due to no application, spells such as lich were causing full damage, which is inconsistent with the damage they have been historically known to apply.

[Daldaen]

From the very first link:

GRRRRREAT FOR IKSARS!, By Elicite (1/28/2001)

I'm a level 53 Iksar Necromancer with 197 int currently (and some ability to go higher).. with the regen, this spell is great, barely lose any hps while this spell is on!
An Iksar at 53 will have 6 standing, 12 sitting Regen. With Regen of his level (Regrowth), that's 15 regen.

On P99, my Iksar under the same Lich + Regrowth configuration loses no health, standing or sitting. This guy talks about barely losing health. (15+6-32=-11) or (15+12-32=-5).

I am unsure this PvP reduction on Lich spells is classic, atleast on a normal server. The above tends to disagree with the "historical" values quoted above.

[Raev]

His phrase 'the regen' strongly suggests he is referring to the Iksar bonus, not Regrowth.

We should ask that Rallos Zek guy who plays Thrilla about this.

[Daldaen]

True, it does read like that... Will read around more.

[Daldaen]

p99's spell file uses the classic values for both spells.

The discrepancy you're seeing ingame is due to PvP damage reduction being applied.

I did find one post from mid 2002 that agrees with this. I just don't recall PvP damage reductions being functional on normal servers.

I'm also curious why they changed it from the original values to the PvP adjusted values in 2006. I looked at the patch notes around then and didn't see any mention of the removal of PvP adjustments on DoTs or liches, which would warrant changing the spell data to keep consistent HP drain values.

[Coffee]

applying pvp damage reduction on lich? what? why?

[Treats]

Yeah, I don't understand this.

If you nuke yourself does it count as PvP damage too then?

[kaev]

Yeah, I don't understand this.

If you nuke yourself does it count as PvP damage too then?

iirc it was like that on live

[Thrilla]

I do vaguely remember as a gnome necro back then that using demi lich was serious business as far as HP decrease, may even remember still using regular Lich as a result more I jog my memory I believe I used regular lich in live BOTB because demi was way too aggresive. not good ;) didn't even realize hp decrease was 32 / tick for demi here since now I'm an Iksar and I don't pay as much attention. Makes sense if it's the 66% hitting it.

Not a fan of anything that 'nerfs' necro on R99 as they're relatively weak compared to live, buf it is classic.. it's classic!

[Uteunayr]

Demi still hurts a great deal for non-Iksar. That's 25 a tick. In 24 seconds you're losing 100 hp. In 50 seconds, that's 200. For only a moderately geared 60 (~1000 HP), that's pretty close to dying in just under 5 minutes. And that's with 100% sitting time. So I think Demi Lich hurts a great deal already for non-Iksar.

Those patch note from Haynar seems to suggest that the Lich damage we are experiencing now is already reduced by 1/3rd, which would mean that the actual damage (objective of that damage reduction) would be the values consistent with Daldaen's damage.

I think this says that the problem or question at hand isn't Lich/Demi Lich damage values, but whether or not the 1/3rd damage reduction on self-inflicted dots is classic. If it is not classic, then removing that would bring the damage of Lich/Demi Lich up to the values Daldaen is reporting. If it is classic, then what we have now is consistent with classic.

Lastly, the only other possibility is if the values of Daldaen's data is post-damage reduction in Classic. Anyone seen anything that would support this?

[Victorio]

If you look at the lucy link that was provided, it shows a great deal of switching back and forth between the 32 and 22 hp per tick "versions" when they're trying to move it there. Each time some PvP and other spell aspects are listed as being changed as well. It seems likely they're just trying to get the spell around the PvP damage reduction so that the 22 listed on the spell is the 22 that happens, rather than 32 listed on the spell to make 22 happen. None of the changes after the final change to 22 show any more PvP changes, which makes me think that they fixed it then.

Edit: Also, if you look at this demi lich post in 2005 from allakhazam
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1611#m11251354671211

He's saying he's got a pvp damage reduction before the spell ever gets changed in lucy to do less damage.

TLDR - pvp damage reduction classic

[Basenji]

This is classic. I remember it from one of the balance discussions where someone, probably Absor, pointed out that Lich was already more efficient than intended due to the PvP damage reduction. And they decided to leave it.

[Daldaen]

This is classic. I remember it from one of the balance discussions where someone, probably Absor, pointed out that Lich was already more efficient than intended due to the PvP damage reduction. And they decided to leave it.

Would love to know when/where these discussions were. See if they are archived anywhere.

[Darkatar]

Maybe I'm crazy, but isn't lich "beneficial" (read: you can click it off) so it shouldn't be affected by the pvp damage mod.

This is much different than nuking/dotting yourself (you cannot click it off)

I don't pvp, so I'm really in no position to make claims. Just my logic train on the issue.

[Coffee]

Maybe I'm crazy, but isn't lich "beneficial" (read: you can click it off) so it shouldn't be affected by the pvp damage mod.

This is much different than nuking/dotting yourself (you cannot click it off)

I don't pvp, so I'm really in no position to make claims. Just my logic train on the issue.

great point

[koros]

Would love to know when/where these discussions were. See if they are archived anywhere.

I 100% remember this. Will look for it.