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arsenalpow
05-04-2015, 08:07 AM
During the CT encounter yesterday BDA was racing against the combined forces of Azure Guard, Omni, and Europa. During the encounter it was found that a member of that alliance logged in at the north wall of Fear to assist in the encounter as a scout of sorts. According to Nemce of Azure Guard this was a strategy that was legitimized by Sirken and did not DQ their successful attempt.

According to the ruling they logged out their two trackers, and then had their additional tracker log in at nwall. It would seem to me that this would violate the rule of not camping too close to a raid target in addition to the two tracker rule, but I guess it's fine.

With this as a baseline ruling I guess it's fine to log forces at the nwall, or maybe it's ok to log a few extra clerics as additional trackers at VS as well. Just thought I'd let everyone know the new interpretation of this rule so every guild can adjust their raid strategy accordingly.

Yaolin
05-04-2015, 09:49 AM
Welcome to the new Class R Chest.....

Anichek
05-04-2015, 10:40 AM
Welcome to the new Class R Chest.....

You do understand that what Chest is seeking is clarification, because this strat is new and if it's going to be upheld, then it opens a can of worms on all sorts of encounters, right?

Nothing wrong with seeking clarification and ensuring we're all playing with the same set of rules/understanding in place.

arsenalpow
05-04-2015, 10:48 AM
You do understand that what Chest is seeking is clarification, because this strat is new and if it's going to be upheld, then it opens a can of worms on all sorts of encounters, right?

Nothing wrong with seeking clarification and ensuring we're all playing with the same set of rules/understanding in place.

Bingo. I'd argue that camping at nwall is definitely too close to CT being that you can visually spot him from that location, and I'd also argue that he's not really a tracker being that the usual location of trackers is up on the bell towers or TT ruins. This ruling would open the door for camping out additional characters at places to assist in kills that circumvent the spirit of the rules, such as logging your coth mages to log into additonal clerics/dps on poop mountain, or your bards in Fear to set up directly at nwall, or a double invised character in Inny's room to pull him down after someone else takes the DT/FTE.

Trackers are there to track, the only exception is currently VS or coth mages.

bktroost
05-04-2015, 12:04 PM
Trackers are there to track, the only exception is currently VS or coth mages.

The purpose of this lower level druid swapping in as a tracker for the trackers on the belltower, was to do just that. His purpose was to get a view of whoever was kiting from bda so our kiters could come in and bracer your kiters.

The argument that could be made is the proximity of the tracker. The rule Sirken stated to us was (found here (http://www.project1999.com/raid.php)at the bottom) that "To encourage competitive racing, guilds may not camp players out in the vicinity of raid targets." The word vicinity is an ambiguous term that is defined by the qualifying statement before it... "To encourage competitive racing." Meaning, our druid tracker that swapped in was not at all within FTE range of CT and in no way personally assisted (such as call of the hero) in competitively racing for FTE. The belltower is an arbitrary location that has never caused anyone trouble, so we all use it. As Sirken has stated, they do not intend to define exact locations of acceptable tracking.

We did not violate the rule: "Guilds may not have any more than two representatives present at a raid spawn location." (also found here (http://www.project1999.com/raid.php))


So, as you think about whether or not to add clerics that are tracking to an encounter and want to use this example for a benchmark, please be aware of the specifics. I also recommend getting /who logs as soon as trackers log out and when your swapped trackers log in.

arsenalpow
05-04-2015, 12:08 PM
Except the agreed upon rules for the planes have always been that you zone your raid force in, you don't camp them out. There was an incident like this a month or two back with Taken where they had a cleric just log in at the entrance for a maestro. Wasn't a tracker or an a scout, just another character to log into to assist in the kill.

BDA was popped after day 1 of the new raid rules being that we were "too close" to Trakanon (the exit shrooms) so instead of hiding behind this ambiguous rule that you got the benefit of let's define the appropriate places a character can be camped out for a raid target. I'm willing to bet that that nwall of fear shouldn't be an acceptable answer.

None of this is in the spirit of the rules whatsoever.

Erati
05-04-2015, 12:19 PM
I agree with Chest here that the North Wall is not a place for us to camp out our raid forces.

I dont have the full grasp of what all went down with this particular CT and how CSG's strat played out to benefit them - but I would really hope this doesnt open the door for entire raid forces to be parked inside of Fearplane before CT window opens

That would ruin a lot of fun this encounter provides and make it pretty boring actually.

bktroost
05-04-2015, 12:26 PM
but I would really hope this doesnt open the door for entire raid forces to be parked inside of Fearplane before CT window opens

This would never set any kind of precedent like that. The only benefit this could do, if you follow the same precedent, is get you a character to watch the other team's kiter. In retrospect, a monk would be a better person. However, he had nothing to do with the kite of mobs or getting/maintaining FTE. (and with draco up and no class C to kill him, it was too chaotic to do any good anyway, so it had no effect on this fight whatsoever).

arsenalpow
05-04-2015, 12:29 PM
I agree with Chest here that the North Wall is not a place for us to camp out our raid forces.

I dont have the full grasp of what all went down with this particular CT and how CSG's strat played out to benefit them - but I would really hope this doesnt open the door for entire raid forces to be parked inside of Fearplane before CT window opens

That would ruin a lot of fun this encounter provides and make it pretty boring actually.

CT popped. Arconis and Troubledour zone into Fear to start the usual kite, Arconis wheels around firewall to see Nuffwin of Azure Guard at nwall, of course there's no way he beat the bards to that spot so he obviously logged in. We down Draco and their alliance took advantage of our kite and manage to get CT.

I inquire about the validity of having additional characters logged at nwall in addition to their trackers that track from the safety of the belltower locations. Apparently Sirken confirmed that it was fine for Nuffwin to log in from that spot because the two trackers on the bell tower had logged out.

If Nuffwin's purpose was to call out kiters couldn't have their trackers done so, it's always the first people who zone in, there's no misdirection. This opens the door for anyone to log characters at all kinds of locations under the guise of "trackers"

This shouldn't be ok.

bktroost
05-04-2015, 12:35 PM
If Nuffwin's purpose was to call out kiters couldn't have their trackers done so, it's always the first people who zone in, there's no misdirection.

That's not necessarily true. If Class C ran in to get the kite for draco how do you determine who has the kite on the firewall? The bard from BDA doesn't need to be the first one in if the entrance is safe, you may send in a monk first to get you info on who is kiting for draco so your bard can pick it up. There are generally multiple kites going. One answer is to try and bind sight from original trackers, but that requires that you have the person on the bell tower (stationary) click the kiter and get the bind sight on a mob following closely to him and that's still sketchy.

If you just have someone watching from the field you can tell your guild's bards who it is and they can track that player to bracer them.

And again, he did not have any real effect in this particular outcome anyway, because draco was a mess.

arsenalpow
05-04-2015, 12:41 PM
That's not necessarily true. If Class C ran in to get the kite for draco how do you determine who has the kite on the firewall? There are generally multiple kites going. One answer is to try and bind sight from original trackers, but that requires that you have the person on the bell tower (stationary) click the kiter and get the bind sight on a mob following closely to him and that's still sketchy.

If you just have someone watching from the field you can tell your guild's bards who it is and they can track that player to bracer them.

And again, he did not have any real effect in this particular outcome anyway, because draco was a mess.

The effect it had on the encounter is irrelevant, an infraction is an infraction. BDA got to sit out on a class R Sev where a botched pull was considered an infraction and had no bearing on the outcome of the encounter. The new ability of being to switch out two crappy trackers for two raid ready fully buffed characters at a location convenient for an engage is pretty fucking major. Plus it's a nightmare to police. What's to stop having two groups camped at nwall that login part ways through the zone in, I don't want to police that and nor should the staff.

You shouldn't be able to park characters at the nwall for all the listed reasons.

Pint
05-04-2015, 12:55 PM
The new ability of being to switch out two crappy trackers for two raid ready fully buffed characters at a location convenient for an engage is pretty fucking major. .

Is anyone else not seeing where in this scenario this happened or why it would be inferred that if trackers who are visually tracking the zone can be in zone then I guess that means raid ready toons can also be there? Looks a lot like youre stretching this one pretty far Chest.

bktroost
05-04-2015, 12:56 PM
The effect it had on the encounter is irrelevant, an infraction is an infraction. BDA got to sit out on a class R Sev where a botched pull was considered an infraction and had no bearing on the outcome of the encounter. The new ability of being to switch out two crappy trackers for two raid ready fully buffed characters at a location convenient for an engage is pretty fucking major. Plus it's a nightmare to police. What's to stop having two groups camped at nwall that login part ways through the zone in, I don't want to police that and nor should the staff.

You shouldn't be able to park characters at the nwall for all the listed reasons.

The thing to stop them is that they can only have 2 of those characters in zone at one time... for the purpose of tracking.

It's probably a good thing that we did not loose our nerve on this tactic when you sent some tells though. I have logs of you stating that you had fraps of nuffwin eating a DT upon log in, something you said specifically.

according to the rule: "Note on Crying Wolf – if you request that another guild concede a mob, you better be 100% certain that they made an error, because if you make another guild concede/forfeit a mob under false pretenses you will be punished harshly" found here (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189856), there would have been a suspension from BDA for saying:

[Sun May 03 14:42:54 2015] Chest -> Cloki: we have nuffwin logging in at nwall and taking DT immediately, DQing your kill.


Which of course, is not true and would, in fact, be a clear violation of the raid policy.

I'm not a fan of open discussion like this, seems too ineffectual. If there is anything that you and I can work out on specifics or even precedent, please send me a pm and we can do it that way. We could even post our refined thoughts here for the world to see, but this feels a bit like dirty laundry.

arsenalpow
05-04-2015, 01:12 PM
I was incorrect about the DT (it was falsely reported to me) but he was definitely at the nwall as admitted by you. This isn't dirty laundry, this is a legitimate concern. Can we start having "tracking" clerics to swap to on poop mountain when the mages jobs are done? Can we have "tracking" monks double invised at Inny's room ready to login and assist with the pull?

There's an unofficial agreement on where trackers are parked, everyone who raids knows these locations. Nwall in Fear isn't one of them. This isn't a stretch, it's a can of worms.

bktroost
05-04-2015, 01:19 PM
I was incorrect about the DT (it was falsely reported to me) but he was definitely at the nwall as admitted by you. This isn't dirty laundry, this is a legitimate concern. Can we start having "tracking" clerics to swap to on poop mountain when the mages jobs are done? Can we have "tracking" monks double invised at Inny's room ready to login and assist with the pull?

There's an unofficial agreement on where trackers are parked, everyone who raids knows these locations. Nwall in Fear isn't one of them. This isn't a stretch, it's a can of worms.

What are the clerics tracking?

Of course you cannot have monks help with a pull if they are trackers... that's not tracking...

This feels a lot like rule lawyering. I swapped one tracker for another to... track. Not FTE, not pull, not train mobs, not MT.

You keep playing this out in very distant circumstances.

arsenalpow
05-04-2015, 01:26 PM
What are the clerics tracking?

Of course you cannot have monks help with a pull if they are trackers... that's not tracking...

This feels a lot like rule lawyering. I swapped one tracker for another to... track. Not FTE, not pull, not train mobs, not MT.

You keep playing this out in very distant circumstances.

You swapped him out at nwall, that's not a location for trackers. That's my issue.

Pint
05-04-2015, 01:29 PM
There is no pre determined location for trackers, you can place your tracker where ever you want to. This is not up for debate, no one dictates where anyone else can place their tracker..

Anichek
05-05-2015, 07:29 PM
There is no pre determined location for trackers, you can place your tracker where ever you want to. This is not up for debate, no one dictates where anyone else can place their tracker..

If you log on a player IN ZONE after the target dragon/god has spawned, it's not tracking, it's assisting with the encounter. Titling it as such is a stretch of the imagination, and thereby leaves a whole lot of other intangibles up for grabs as well.

Seeking clarification on this isn't a bad thing, it would certainly shore up the viability of this strategy - but it is our belief that this isn't legit under the current raid rules that have been modus operandi.

Pint
05-05-2015, 08:07 PM
By your interpretation if a guild logs in a tracker to check the progress of an encounter then they are not tracking that encounter? Just because the mob is up does not mean that you cannot still log in to track it. That is absurd, you are trying to create a scenario where you can log in characters to heal, pull, tank, dps etc who are illegally parked. All Azure Guard did was log in a tracker to track the progress of the encounter.

Anichek
05-05-2015, 09:16 PM
By your interpretation if a guild logs in a tracker to check the progress of an encounter then they are not tracking that encounter? Just because the mob is up does not mean that you cannot still log in to track it. That is absurd, you are trying to create a scenario where you can log in characters to heal, pull, tank, dps etc who are illegally parked. All Azure Guard did was log in a tracker to track the progress of the encounter.

Pint, I've been in contact with Nemce and while you're trying, you're not fully in the loop. In lieu of entering into public conversation regarding the particulars...I'd like to focus this Raid Discussion post about the precedent this sets for future raid encounters. Addressing your question - what I'm specifically stating is that if you are tracking a mob, and it spawns, the you are no longer eligible to log characters on IN THE ZONE to assist in the encounter whatsoever. This has been the standard on Inny, CT, Draco, Vox, Naggy. Sev, Talendor, Gore, Faydedar, VS all have spots that have been designated as being in zone, but far enough away that a gamesmanship advantage is not gained.

The previous stance was clean, clear cut. Trackers in zone, nobody else. Zone in upon spawn, mobilize to your pull spot and execute a strategy.

Using this tactic, there's almost infinite abuse capabilities and now there's been gray area inserted into something that was far more manageable policy. All this does is potentially create more CSR work. It's going to take 50 raids with varying levels of pushing these new limits to find a boundary that sets the new operational boundary....

Referencing the Raid PnP, found HERE (http://www.project1999.com/raid.php)

http://i.imgur.com/9nXcrjx.jpg

Pint
05-05-2015, 09:50 PM
No Anichek, you are simply reaching as far as you possibly can to create something out of nothing. If a character logs in in zone and does not engage a mob or perform any role in the fight other than observation then that person has done absolutely nothing wrong and broken no rules. You can lawyer this until you turn blue if you like and I am sure that you will, but no rules are being broken in the scenario laid out in this thread.

Anichek
05-05-2015, 09:54 PM
No Anichek, you are simply reaching as far as you possibly can to create something out of nothing. If a character logs in in zone and does not engage a mob or perform any role in the fight other than observation then that person has done absolutely nothing wrong and broken no rules. You can lawyer this until you turn blue if you like and I am sure that you will, but no rules are being broken in the scenario laid out in this thread.

Ahhh...but once again, you're speaking without knowledge.

The character logged in, and assisted on, the engage. It didn't just observe. However, because we don't observe public petitions, this discussion is about the policy of logging in characters in zone once a mob has spawned.

I'm not flailing around with blind hatred here. I'm looking for a clarification on why this was allowed to happen, when it's in direct violation of the PnP (camped too close to a raid target) and then also violated the premise of it being an "observation only" character as the story has been painted (but that will be handled through proper raid dispute channels).

Pint
05-05-2015, 11:02 PM
So what youre saying is that Nemce is lying and this tracker actually did engage CT to kite, heal or dps?

bktroost
05-05-2015, 11:11 PM
My tracker did not get FTE, pull, MT or in any way ensure/maintain an FTE. He threw in a superior heal twice after the mob was engaged and secured with significant dps and primary heals, which I confirmed, is acceptable to do. however, he was not camped out with the purpose of raid engagement, he was camped there for the purpose of observing. Sirken confirmed this was acceptable considering the impact he had on the encounter and purpose of his positioning was entirely observational.

Anichek
05-05-2015, 11:13 PM
My tracker did not get FTE, pull, MT or in any way ensure/maintain an FTE. He threw in a superior heal twice after the mob was engaged and secured with significant dps and primary heals, which I confirmed, is acceptable to do. however, he was not camped out with the purpose of raid engagement, he was camped there for the purpose of observing. Sirken confirmed this was acceptable considering the impact he had on the encounter and purpose of his positioning was entirely observational.

There is zero difference between 1 and 20 people camped out then in zone - because once the mob has spawned you're no longer limited to the 2 active trackers in zone.

See the problem?

bktroost
05-05-2015, 11:15 PM
yes you are. You are entirely restricted to 2 people that have been camped in. 100% restricted to only 2 people that were camped prior to CT pop in the zone to be allowed to engage in the fight at all after FTE was aquired. Mages on poop mountain can CoTH or run in and make a pet and engage once the FTE was acquired. But you cannot pull in 20 camped players from poop mountain to engage.

Anichek
05-05-2015, 11:35 PM
yes you are. You are entirely restricted to 2 people that have been camped in. 100% restricted to only 2 people that were camped prior to CT pop in the zone to be allowed to engage in the fight at all after FTE was aquired. Mages on poop mountain can CoTH or run in and make a pet and engage once the FTE was acquired. But you cannot pull in 20 camped players from poop mountain to engage.

Correct - but you cannot have the CotH mages on poop mountain do the cothing and watching for pops, then log off to two fully buffed tanks on poop mountain to engage.

Nuffwin was in zone before the spawn, logged off. Logged on and then assisted with the engage. Had he not done anything other than observe/locate/herd kittens in case of another guild's kite and wipe, to better your raid force for a potential zone in/pick up kite/engage, then there's no issue. I'm willing to concede the fact that guild trackers are not bound to a specific tracking location, other than they must not achieve FTE when tracking....because that's right and fair.

bktroost
05-05-2015, 11:56 PM
I have nuffwin's full log - he actually didn't heal anyone nor did he do any damage to the target. I was being informed by a BDA person that they saw him heal the MT. He cast 2 heals but never landed a heal on anyone but himself...not that it is against the rules, but I don't see this conversation being any more productive. Feel free to ask whatever though, for clarification purposes.

Anichek
05-06-2015, 12:12 AM
I have nuffwin's full log - he actually didn't heal anyone nor did he do any damage to the target. I was being informed by a BDA person that they saw him heal the MT. He cast 2 heals but never landed a heal on anyone but himself...not that it is against the rules, but I don't see this conversation being any more productive. Feel free to ask whatever though, for clarification purposes.

[Sun May 03 15:41:27 2015] Nuffwin begins to cast a spell.
[Sun May 03 15:41:32 2015] Nuffwin's casting is interrupted!
[Sun May 03 15:41:35 2015] Nuffwin begins to cast a spell.
[Sun May 03 15:41:45 2015] Nuffwin begins to cast a spell.
[Sun May 03 15:42:25 2015] a fetid fiend says 'You will not evade me Nuffwin!'
[Sun May 03 15:42:36 2015] a fetid fiend says 'You will not evade me Nuffwin!'

Please clarify how healing himself drew aggro on the fetid fiend. Healing someone with aggro would make that happen, but not certain how healing himself while observing in the distance would make that happen.

bktroost
05-06-2015, 12:39 AM
http://i.imgur.com/gVotBNo.png


No idea.

I had more to focus on than whether or not Nuffwin sat down during the raid. I really can't do any more digging on this issue. Nothing here is illegal, but you were looking for clarification. I've clarified to the maximum extent of my logs.

Ella`Ella
05-06-2015, 01:16 PM
You can lawyer this until you turn blue if you like and I am sure that you will, but no rules are being broken in the scenario laid out in this thread.

There was no rule broken here. You can have an entire raid force camped out right underneath any raid target if you want, however if the mob spawns you can only log 2 of that entire raid force in, with the rest being disqualified from doing anything. Those 2 characters that you did log in are considered trackers and are subject to all the limitations of a tracker, which includes basically not being able to take any part in the encounter.

Erati
05-06-2015, 02:24 PM
all the limitations of a tracker, which includes basically not being able to take any part in the encounter.

this is where BDA is concerned.

Frankly I already see a problem with how you phrased what you wrote: trackers for VS for example are crucial healers for the encounter as its normally a cleric + COH bot

I think I understand what you meant here and agree with the sentiment, but as far as I am aware so long as the trackers do NOT get the yellow text- they can help with the encounter AFTER yellow text

is that incorrect?

arsenalpow
05-06-2015, 02:26 PM
this is where BDA is concerned.

Frankly I already see a problem with how you phrased what you wrote: trackers for VS for example are crucial healers for the encounter as its normally a cleric + COH bot

I think I understand what you meant here and agree with the sentiment, but as far as I am aware so long as the trackers do NOT get the yellow text- they can help with the encounter AFTER yellow text

is that incorrect?

So they had two trackers on the bell tower with all the other trackers. Then CT spawned, they logged their bell tower trackers, and logged in this Druid parked on the north wall. At that point isn't he a raider and not a tracker? The north wall isn't a location where trackers congregate, it's where raiders congregate.

Would it be kosher to have two coth mages on poop mountain for Trak, dump their mana cothing in the raid force, then /q and swap to two different buffed level 60 raiders also parked on poop mountain that are there to engage? As long as those two new raiders don't get yellow text it's fine?

That doesn't feel clean to me. It also seems absolutely insane to police. The rule is to not camp raiders at raid targets. Using an ambiguous "tracker" clause to circumvent that policy is not in the spirit of that rule.

Erati
05-06-2015, 03:52 PM
Would it be kosher to have two coth mages on poop mountain for Trak, dump their mana cothing in the raid force, then /q and swap to two different buffed level 60 raiders also parked on poop mountain that are there to engage? As long as those two new raiders don't get yellow text it's fine?


This would be a No for me bc that means on poopmountain you had essentially 4 trackers parked.

When we do Trak we bitch at people to not park anyone down there - even the 'extra' mages who want to make it easier to replace the trackers currently there. Nope- we COH the replacement trackers down and gate the ones being replaced out, like everyone else.

I was more getting at the fact that trackers can certainly help with the encounter after the FTE has been established and secured, no where does it say they cannot however I dont think thats the exact issue BDA is concerned about. Their beef is the fact that much like how VS turned into a 'warrior/cleric' track team for a period of time- some rule bending here can turn things into a mess very quickly.

bktroost
05-06-2015, 05:06 PM
some rule bending here can turn things into a mess very quickly.

There is a rule against rule bending.

See (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189856): "Note on Rule Lawyering – I think the spirit of everything we are trying to accomplish here is pretty clear, and anyone that tries to twist the words to support and/or justify nefarious actions that go against the spirit of the rules posted here will not be rewarded. There will be no “technically this could be that”, or “well it doesn’t exactly say this word for word”."

It's a rule that basically says "intent is everything, don't try and cheat the system. If its a rule its a rule, if its not a rule don't make it a rule."

"and anyone that tries to twist the words to support and/or justify nefarious actions"
A.K.A. trying to turn your "tracker", who doesn't serve any major purpose int he encounter, into the raid's MT or Main Healer or Kiter or something very impacting.

Erati
05-06-2015, 05:16 PM
I agree that AG was not doing anything nefarious which is clear bc they sought Sirkens approval first

I guess the only thing that can b done is continue to observe if this boundary is pushed any further with future CTs or other encounters

Guilds can agree for X plane to only place trackers at Y but that would have to b agreed by everyone

arsenalpow
05-06-2015, 07:14 PM
I agree that AG was not doing anything nefarious which is clear bc they sought Sirkens approval first

I guess the only thing that can b done is continue to observe if this boundary is pushed any further with future CTs or other encounters

Guilds can agree for X plane to only place trackers at Y but that would have to b agreed by everyone

It is our understanding that Sirken was NOT consulted before the encounter and they did not seek Sirken's approval first.

After Nuffwin was caught logging into northwall camp in fear plane, Sirken showed up on Azure Guard's request to check logs for overlapping tracker log-ins. As far as we know, Sirken has no knowledge that Nuffwin logged in at the northwall camp (gathering area for AGs raid force), buffed raiders there, was LFG and said "druid LFG" at their camp, participated in the raid (ran out to the CT engage, cast multiple spells during the encounter), and was subsequently summoned by mobs and killed during the encounter.

Those are not the actions of a "tracker", those are actions of a raider that got an advantage over all the other raiders present by not having to negotiate the plane of fear or the mobs in the plane of fear on the way from the entrance of fear to the northwall of fear because he was camped there illegally.