TOV - Pulling Mobs to ENT

[Kixx]

Good evening,

I am posting this thread in hopes of getting a definitive answer on the legalities of our server rules.

As you know, pulling most Raid bosses to a zone in has been a big no-no on our server due to the issues it can cause for other raids zoning in (i.e. training, petitionquest, etc).

The reason I bring it up is because on Live this was a very common scenario due to the ease of fighting certain mobs (i.e. Aary, Ikky, Eashan, Dozekar to zone in for raid forces). Most guilds did follow these strategies due to how it assisted with the ease of clearing trash for true FTE races on Live.

I'd like to get some clarification from the server staff if this will be a viable option for all guilds who engage these particular dragons in such a way.

Thank you very much for your time and all the hard work you put in to our wonderful server,

Kiixx <Taken>

[rictus204]

ell oh ell

[Daldaen]

I think what actually needs to happen is the raid leaders and officers of raiding guilds on P99 need to make a thread in Raid Discussion and iron things out.

Where can we camp out? Zone in only? Aary prep spot/Zlandicar prep spot/Yelinak prep spot or will those simply be Mage CotH races? -- Typically it was always zone in, but Zlandicar and Yelinak will just turn into huge derptarded CotH races with 10 poopsocking mages per guild if that is what is decided. I'd favor allowing campouts for NToV to be allowed at prep spot and the other two dragons allowed nearby their location to prevent the requirement to compete being 4+ mages sitting there for an entire window waiting to CotH people (also this will depend on whether they applied horrible variance to mobs unclassicly)

Where can we pull? Tormax was almost always done at zone lines for example, but such a pull leads him through half the zone - albeit a half not often camped cause armor doesn't drop there. What about NToV? Or Klandicar/Sontalak... Do these have to be fought at their spawn or will factioned mages CotH a tagger to them, aggro and pull to the SG zone line or somewhere else as a stall? Or will people camp in DN/ToV and zone out and whoever has more SSDs engage first? -- The only mob I can think of that has a pulling restriction was Venril Sathir, I expect a case by case basis for Velious mobs.

Exploiting Geometry/LoS for Tanks/Melee. Is this strategy allowed, where your melee or tanks can hit a raid mob though they don't have true LoS on said mob, which allows them to avoid all LoS based AEs? Is this classic? Is it kosher on the server? -- As it stands there are some locations you can tank certain dragons like Zlandicar and quite a few in ToV, where your tank isn't getting hit by any AEs... Fears, DDs, stuns, etc. But he is still capable of meleeing, proccing and holding aggro. Same deal for your entire set of melee DPS standing in this location and tank standing somewhere else. Allowing you to still DPS but not deal with the AEs at all. For healers this was certainly a strategy. Hide behind wall because heals don't require LoS. However tanks and DPS still being able to hold aggro/melee AND being able to avoid AEs... I'm skeptical this was classic or allowed.

Sim repops, no bag limit in Velious and its all FFA I'm guessing? Do bag limits still apply to Kunark? Are they necessary in Kunark with Velious out?

Faction tagging was a common practice. You hit a raid boss that another guild is killing at 5% and get a faction hit. On P99 though interfering with other raid's mobs is against the rules. I have no doubts someone who has a grudge will file a petty petition over a certain guild or players doing this even though it's classic. Those petition filers really need to just be DT'd and corpse moved to a random place in PoMischief.

The question is a lot bigger than NToV. There are a lot of mobs and they're split in a lot of zones. If you want to say anything can be pulled anywhere you will end up with people pulling Zlandicar to entrance and Velketor to the entrance.

As much as I'd like a conversation to happen, I am not holding my breath. I think Velious will launch, people will walk in gray areas, petitions will be filed and certain strategies will be banned, and certain guilds will have 1 week suspension from Tormax.

[ddxdy]

[LIST="1"] Where can we camp out? Zone in only? Aary prep spot/Zlandicar prep spot/Yelinak prep spot or will those simply be Mage CotH races? -- Typically it was always zone in, but Zlandicar and Yelinak will just turn into huge derptarded CotH races with 10 poopsocking mages per guild if that is what is decided. I'd favor allowing campouts for NToV to be allowed at prep spot and the other two dragons allowed nearby their location to prevent the requirement to compete being 4+ mages sitting there for an entire window waiting to CotH people (also this will depend on whether they applied horrible variance to mobs unclassicly).


What are current variances on beta? Higher variances = more poopsocking with little advantage and massive disadvantage. Low variance means guilds can be more ready around spawn times of specific targets; if Velious turns into a massive CoTH poopsock on all raid targets, the guild with the most mages wins.

If targets have 16 hour variances, many of them will simply go to whoever can field the most mages for 16 hours at a time. If a window is only 3 hours, it still comes down to who has more mages, but the poopsock of who has more mages for the most amount of time goes away.

[Raev]

I would be shocked if the staff allows zone pulls. Even in VP, for example, the dragons must be engaged past the zone in. And many of these zones will have non-raiders there; I can't imagine you'll be allowed to drop Tormax's guards on some group factioning up with the dwarves near the bank (new strategy: untagged XP groups that petition when trained with raid mobs). The reality is that competitive EQ sucks. The mechanics simply don't work well with multiple raids in the same zone. I would say red would be better, but I think it's going to be hard to kill raid mobs when all the other side has to do is PK 3-4 clerics and port out.

I think the first monthish of Velious will simply be a petition shitshow. After everyone gets a little experience in terms of who can kill the various targets, where the XP groups tend to show up, where raid mobs can be pulled with minimal collateral damage and so on, I hope there will be some sort of relatively amicable meeting between the relevant parties that lays down some basic ground rules.

The other possibility is that once Velious is out and the major bugs are fixed, the staff finally puts some time into fixing the raid scene (i.e. major simultaneous repops with mobilization zones etc etc).

[Pint]

Pulling to zone in should definitely not be allowed. A 2 bag limit in velious would actually be fairly nice since smaller or more casual guilds would have opportunities to attempt mobs they otherwise couldn't. We can wait for the staff to make some rules for us, or we can attempt to make some for ourselves. Asgard would prefer the latter.

[Erati]

if the mob comes to the zone cleanly with no trains being dropped on people I dont see an issue, the only major difference between fighting a special mob at the zone versus a trash one is their name

if another guild has yellow text you know its not yours, and if the other mobs are controlled in a way to not affect other players - seems like that is par for the course here

[Daldaen]

Pulling to zone in should definitely not be allowed. A 2 bag limit in velious would actually be fairly nice since smaller or more casual guilds would have opportunities to attempt mobs they otherwise couldn't. We can wait for the staff to make some rules for us, or we can attempt to make some for ourselves. Asgard would prefer the latter.

Need people with raid discussion access to actually start threads then :/.

Pulling to zone ins is classic. HOWEVER, the way in which those pulls will be done on P99 is far from classic and those will tend to lead to training groups.

ToV I think pulling to the entry hallway (though not the zone in room) should be allowed (if VP you're allowed to pull to entry hallway, I think it parallels well enough with ToV that precedence has been set). At some point like half of NToV gets perma rooted and most of WToV. I forget when though, so until that happens guilds will be pulling either to the safe spot in NToV or entry hallway.

Kael... Any pull is going to screw with players in zone. Any guild who clears Giants on the way in will get leapfrogged. This will be a tough cookie I think. I always pulled Tormax to WL and the others to a corner of the Arena. But both of those pull paths will have normal groups grinding.

WW First Brood, should be fought at their spawn point but I have a feeling those will just be CotH races and stall runs back to your "engage area".

Dain... Everyone pulls him to well, which is out of everyone's way, I don't see any issues here. Even if your guild was one that fought him at zone in, that would be fine because the group's in Icewell won't be in that pull path.

Yelinak/Zlandicar are located such that any pull will either be an exploit (Zlandicar) or train the entire zone (Yelinak). So it will be a CotH race. But I can't imagine anything more retarded than requiring 4 poopsocking mages to contest these mobs as you CotH down 60 people. Really these mobs should be an exception and allow camp-outs near the mob. Let people compete by logging in fast to a batphone, not having 20 logged in pooping in a sock.

Velketor is going to be a cluster. For pure entertainment, you can log out at the beginning of the ice bridge and no CotHing allowed. Just to lol at people running across the ice bridge over lower dogs in a rush.

Tunare... I don't even want to think about this. The amount of leapfrogging and debauchery that are going to be involved here, will be staggering.

I wouldn't mind a 2 Velious and 2 Kunark lockout. But man,I can imagine some guilds complaining very hard that they cannot lock others out from getting ST keys from the first brood. Cause a 2 limit will force them to leave 3 up. Likely the hardest ones but still, casual guilds can band together and Zerg with the best of them.

All of the above are merely my personal opinions. But I will lobby hard for those Velketor rules. It would be gold Jerry!

[Pint]

Mobs with aoes do affect other players though, Kael seems like the only exception to this. I assume tov Ent will have ppl idling around regularly and I'm sure dn Ent will have ppl killing spiders and messing etc. I feel like you should have to kill every tov dragon inside of its wing (where inside doesn't much matter) but maybe I'm I'm the minority.

[Samoht]

Yelinak/Zlandicar are located such that any pull will either be an exploit (Zlandicar) or train the entire zone (Yelinak). So it will be a CotH race. But I can't imagine anything more retarded than requiring 4 poopsocking mages to contest these mobs as you CotH down 60 people. Really these mobs should be an exception and allow camp-outs near the mob. Let people compete by logging in fast to a batphone, not having 20 logged in pooping in a sock.

These should work just like Trakanon.

Tunare... I don't even want to think about this. The amount of leapfrogging and debauchery that are going to be involved here, will be staggering.

This should work just like CT.

[Daldaen]

Mobs with aoes do affect other players though, Kael seems like the only exception to this. I assume tov Ent will have ppl idling around regularly and I'm sure dn Ent will have ppl killing spiders and messing etc. I feel like you should have to kill every tov dragon inside of its wing (where inside doesn't much matter) but maybe I'm I'm the minority.

Its relatively easy to avoid AEs, but I feel you. Zoning into Zlandicar AEing you when you're a lowly 50 Druid wanting to root rot spiders would be maximum dumb. So would Eashen blowing up some random 60 zoning into ToV to explore.

Inside the wings will be hit or miss. Especially since to do that you will be require to clear some amount of trash. Does clearing/engaging the trash first stake the claim to the mob? Or is it going to be retarded "wait til they engage trash and leapfrog them", or "engage trash and stall dragon". Because that's what it will end up being, we just haven't faced this in Kunark and Classic because every single dragon you are able to kite trash and burn them down. Inny, CT, VS, Trak, Outdoor dragons, all of it.

Seeing 3 guilds rush into HoT to break the entrance and a 4th leapfrog into Dozekar's room is going to be a reality.

We simply have too many high-end guilds to support the raiding environment here unless the system has the means to break them up. Sim repops are the best way because everyone gets a share. Variance was a way, but that just split out all the casuals and left things to the neckbeards who want to sock for 16 hours each mob every week. Rotations are a way but we saw how well those worked.

[Erati]

Mobs with aoes do affect other players though, Kael seems like the only exception to this. I assume tov Ent will have ppl idling around regularly and I'm sure dn Ent will have ppl killing spiders and messing etc. I feel like you should have to kill every tov dragon inside of its wing (where inside doesn't much matter) but maybe I'm I'm the minority.

dont some trashy mobs have AEs as well

I dont think 2-3 people afk 'idling' at the zone should dictate where the 50-60 raiders trying to accomplish a goal should go

but this isnt the place to debate this as it seems much of this will be figured out as we go

[Daldaen]

These should work just like Trakanon.



This should work just like CT.

Trakanon is the prime example of the worst mob with variance. You're required to sock with full groups and multiple mages to compete. Only 2 guilds are willing to do this for 16 hour windows. You shouldn't be required to be able to field 12 people+ for 16 hours to compete on these mobs.

PoGrowth trash run at Selos speed and faster (Atleast some do), and some root. Kiting it isn't going to be extremely feasible.

[Raev]

I dont think 2-3 people afk 'idling' at the zone should dictate where the 50-60 raiders trying to accomplish a goal should go
I think a better argument concerns the other 50-60 raiders who just wiped to that dragon at the same spot who can't even zone in and CR. Which from what I have seen on beta is likely to be much closer to reality than instant FTEs and COHing down to engage Zlandicar 2 minutes from when he spawns.

[Erati]

I think a better argument concerns the other 50-60 raiders who just wiped to that dragon at the same spot who can't even zone in and CR. Which from what I have seen on beta is likely to be much closer to reality than instant FTEs and COHing down to engage Zlandicar 2 minutes from when he spawns.

ehhh possibly - alot of this will be evident once we start training one another and derping around on live lol

[Daldaen]

Zlandicar will undoubtably be a 2minute engage, even less if blocking AEs on tanks and DPS while still being able to melee is allowed on this server. Not having to deal with 20s Fears at 255 MR will be a huge tactical advantage if that's allowed.

I understand the argument against pulling to ToV zone in, but the entry hall I think should be fair game if VP's entry hall is fair game. Being hit by an AE where you zone in shouldn't happen.

[Destron]

Should just have a rotation system for NToV. If you leave mobs up for more than 6 hours they are FFA.

No CoTH bots. Leapfrogging is in play. Let guilds try to get jumps and wipe, these aren't your 32k pushovers.

[Raev]

ehhh possibly - alot of this will be evident once we start training one another and derping around on live lol

yep

[Pint]

i really feel like the 50-60 people should move into the wing that they want to kill a dragon in. up the difficulty just a little.

[Daldaen]

If they want to up the difficulty, just start with all the dragons that were perma-rooted, as perma-rooted dragons. Then the decision is forced, and it becomes a LOT more challenging, since you can't simply pull around shit. Again, assuming they want to up the difficulty. Which is all the Lords and Ladies except the Ko'Doiken one.

[Kegluas]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/putersmash.gif

[Itap]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/putersmash.gif

Glad im not the only one

[Daldaen]

And that's fine. Just expect to be petitioned for your tactics and expect to petition others for their tactics. That's basically where this will end up because nothing was talked about in advance.

[Kixx]

Yeah the main reason for starting this post is to avoid future shit shows of tears flowing and lengthy petition wars that exist on our server.

Thanks for everyones input. I'll leave it to you all to decide what we're doing.

-Kiixx

[Destron]

Petition Quest isn't going anywhere.

[Subversive]

We simply have too many high-end guilds
Sorry friend, there is only 1. But it IS fun to pretend.

[Daldaen]

Sorry friend, there is only 1. But it IS fun to pretend.

Sorry friend, I speak in terms of classic high-end. Classicly there were maybe 3 guilds on each server able to zone into ToV and kill trash. Here there's like 10. And like 6 of those could kill all of WToV and Doze/Eashen/Ikatiar quite handily during their prime times.

[pasi]

I feel like pulling anything other than Ikatiar and Dozekar to zone in only increases the difficulty and slows down the raid. I guess it's quicker for FTE. Could be wrong though.

[Colgate]

thank god we have PvP on red99

good luck with this headache yowl

[Treats]

I feel like pulling anything other than Ikatiar and Dozekar to zone in only increases the difficulty and slows down the raid. I guess it's quicker for FTE. Could be wrong though.

Yea, I don't understand why this would even be attempted.

It's faster CoHing to East/West/North -- even on ITK, Eashen, and Dozekar.

[Daldaen]

I guarantee you I can set up a pull of any west, east, or the entry 3 in NToV faster than you can CotH a 40 man raid to engage them.

That being said, there will be other areas this is a problem. Like say... Pulling Zlandicar out of his lair to entrance of first floor area using completely broken pathing. Or basically all the Kael mobs because of the nature of FTE.

But again - Petitions will fly and rules will be handed down as we go because no one wanted to sort things out in advance.

[Sampten]

Pulling to the zone in disrupts the zone. Furthermore, it will most likely get anybody zoning in killed due to the AEs and being ill prepared.

Personally, I would say that because of the zone disruption, pulling to the zone in is going to be a no go.

In addition, while there is no C/FFA/R rotation system in place, in the event there is one, it would tag incorrect guilds on that agro list and lock people out when it shouldn't.

Petitions will fly, guilds will get suspended. I think the "common sense" approach is not to pull to anything to a zone in that has any sort of AE.

[Daldaen]

Then the issue becomes, where can they be pulled? Like... Just before zone in so that a player who zoned in won't get AE'd, but still nearby? Only within their respective wings? Must be fought where they stand?

I definitely agree pulling to zone in disrupts the zone. ESPECIALLY in the case of Kael and Dragon Necropolis, since random groups will be everywhere. ToV I feel you but that's a raid zone and stupid shit is expected in raid zones - see VP for what stupid shit to expect. Plus there won't be random groups hanging around in ToV. If anything they'll be roaming HoT and WToV where no one will really train.

If you don't allow raid mobs to be pulled to zones - that's fine. That certainly doesn't mean there won't be zone disrupting trains. You must be joking if you think people will clear to LTK or CoTH for 10 minutes. They will aggro trash and train it away, if pulling LTK himself is not allowed.

Imagine if VP you were not permitted to pull the dragons much past their room/pathing nodes. Trains would just get created to move aside the trash and the raid will follow behind. I guarantee it.

But... I've said all I can say on this topic. Just expect every guild to petition every other guilds kill spots and trains generated.

[Man0warr]

Yeah the best way to pull Vindi/Statue/Tormax is huge trains towards EW or Arena - but if there are going to be groups in Arena farming armor (and there will be, 24/7) that is not going to fly.

[Nirgon]

How about get out of the way for 5 minutes

[Man0warr]

XP groups have no incentive to do that - especially if you are part of a rival guild. "Train me and your getting petition quested", is what's going to happen.

GMs will side with the groups who were there exping (sort of like Chardok, if players actually wanted to build non AE exp groups). Right now the only acceptable places to train are VP and the Planes.

[Sampten]

Then the issue becomes, where can they be pulled? Like... Just before zone in so that a player who zoned in won't get AE'd, but still nearby? Only within their respective wings? Must be fought where they stand?

I definitely agree pulling to zone in disrupts the zone. ESPECIALLY in the case of Kael and Dragon Necropolis, since random groups will be everywhere. ToV I feel you but that's a raid zone and stupid shit is expected in raid zones - see VP for what stupid shit to expect. Plus there won't be random groups hanging around in ToV. If anything they'll be roaming HoT and WToV where no one will really train.

If you don't allow raid mobs to be pulled to zones - that's fine. That certainly doesn't mean there won't be zone disrupting trains. You must be joking if you think people will clear to LTK or CoTH for 10 minutes. They will aggro trash and train it away, if pulling LTK himself is not allowed.

Imagine if VP you were not permitted to pull the dragons much past their room/pathing nodes. Trains would just get created to move aside the trash and the raid will follow behind. I guarantee it.

But... I've said all I can say on this topic. Just expect every guild to petition every other guilds kill spots and trains generated.

Well in obvious situations, Zlandicar can be fought where he spawns. This avoids that situation in DN. NToV dragons can be fought where they spawn. Will guilds need to clear trash? Yeah, because they can't just train stuff off on top of others. It'll be interesting to see how that sorts itself out though.

I'm not sure I see a situation where pulling any mob that casts an AE to the zone line will be allowed, nor will training/pulling over groups hunting for experience....especially when they would be in the zone before a raid force anyhow.

You could also fight KT/Vindi/Statue/AOW etc. where they spawn, and maybe that's what will ultimately be required. For NToV Dragons and such, you'd have to fight them where they spawn.

In reality it'll all fall under play nice and zone disruption is not 'play nice'. I think people are going to need to think before doing it, or come up with other means of engaging.

If the GMs stick to the policy of progressively harsher sentences for violations, guilds are going to need to think twice about how they go about engaging raid mobs.

[Daldaen]

It avoids the situation, yes. But it won't be done like that until a guild is petitioned and a GM rules as such. Until then guilds will exploit his warping through walls and pull him to entrance or first floor single because that's the path of least resistance.

Everything could be fought at its spawn but that greatly increases the difficulty and more importantly requires trash clears as you mention. This server doesn't like trash clears. Reason being there is no claim to the mob until an FTE message is given.

Clearing the 2 drakes before Aaryonar should constitute a 20min engage timer you have like turning in a Ragefire Pearl. But instead, it's only FTE that matters. As such, guilds will resort to training or if that's not allowed leapfrogging other guilds as they clear trash. There are a lot of examples of this.

Clearing Aary should give you access to NToV so long as you are clearing dragons and not wiping. Like every 15-20min you have to kill another dragon or your claim to the area is void and another guild can contest a mob. But what will happen is 1 guild will clear Aary then another will snipe Feshlak or Dagarn, and they'll herp deep over each other's pulls and kills.

Tl;dr - Pull locations will be determined legit by petitions and the FTE system could use a revamp unless you wish to deal with trains. Mobs are no longer dying in 1min. Trash clears are necessary and killing certain trash should stake a claim to a mob just like an FTE should. This would reduce herpderp pulling, leapfrogging and kiting trains.

[Sampten]

Everything could be fought at its spawn but that greatly increases the difficulty and more importantly requires trash clears as you mention. This server doesn't like trash clears. Reason being there is no claim to the mob until an FTE message is given.



I mean, it's kinda tough luck there then, isn't it? I mean, not to sound harsh or anything but so what?

You're basically saying "hey that may be hard so I want to disrupt a zone so it's easier".

That argument probably isn't going to fly. Then again, I can't speak on behalf of the GMs. Maybe they're totally fine with people being trained on, zone disruption, etc. Ultimately it's their call.

It's the case of buyer beware. If you're worried about petitions and raid bans, then you need to weigh the decision to pull over people and/or pull to zone-ins. That becomes the decision of the guild, and the raid leader. Both the guild/raid leader need to be aware that there could very well be consequences to those decisions and accept that.

The other solution is for all the major guilds to agree to certain terms/play nice sort of policy, so not to have to get into the lawyer-quest petition-quest, etc. I'm not sure the server politics here and the hostile animosity between guilds would ultimately yield a compromise/solution, but this is stuff that should have been worked out long prior to now. Honestly, it's unfortunate.

It will be interesting to see how GMs react. It will also be interesting to see how many bans get handed down and how quickly and what the punishments are.

[Cyrano]

It avoids the situation, yes. But it won't be done like that until a guild is petitioned and a GM rules as such. Until then guilds will exploit his warping through walls and pull him to entrance or first floor single because that's the path of least resistance.

Everything could be fought at its spawn but that greatly increases the difficulty and more importantly requires trash clears as you mention. This server doesn't like trash clears. Reason being there is no claim to the mob until an FTE message is given.

Clearing the 2 drakes before Aaryonar should constitute a 20min engage timer you have like turning in a Ragefire Pearl. But instead, it's only FTE that matters. As such, guilds will resort to training or if that's not allowed leapfrogging other guilds as they clear trash. There are a lot of examples of this.

Clearing Aary should give you access to NToV so long as you are clearing dragons and not wiping. Like every 15-20min you have to kill another dragon or your claim to the area is void and another guild can contest a mob. But what will happen is 1 guild will clear Aary then another will snipe Feshlak or Dagarn, and they'll herp deep over each other's pulls and kills.

Tl;dr - Pull locations will be determined legit by petitions and the FTE system could use a revamp unless you wish to deal with trains. Mobs are no longer dying in 1min. Trash clears are necessary and killing certain trash should stake a claim to a mob just like an FTE should. This would reduce herpderp pulling, leapfrogging and kiting trains.

http://www.sharegif.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/21/lol-gif-36.gif

[Pint]

Kill dragons in their respective wings!

[Colgate]

people say everquest wasn't designed with PvP in mind

then threads like this happen

ho ho

ha ha

[MEGANS LAW]

maybe you guys should pvp over the dragons.

[Daldaen]

Project 1999
Status:
Players: UP
914
.:: Server Info ::.

Project 1999 PvP
Status:
Players: UP
156
.:: Server Info ::.

There's a reason red is dead. PvP is why, it's bad.

[Erati]

love all the valuable input we are getting from the blue servers top guild in this thread

i would requote the two gifs and "suck it" responses but that would b tacky

[slappytwotoes]

Let the shitshow begin!

[randomhero401]

I am all for mobs being killed in their wings and not at the entrance of zones.

[Daldaen]

I am all for mobs being killed in their wings and not at the entrance of zones.

I'm sure most all guilds are willing to agree to this.

As Captain Planet would say... The power in yours. Use the fancy Raid Discussion forum and create a thread similar to the noble agreement.

[fiveeauxfour]

fk it, train the casuals!

[Samoht]

Then the issue becomes, where can they be pulled? Like... Just before zone in so that a player who zoned in won't get AE'd, but still nearby? Only within their respective wings? Must be fought where they stand?

I definitely agree pulling to zone in disrupts the zone. ESPECIALLY in the case of Kael and Dragon Necropolis, since random groups will be everywhere. ToV I feel you but that's a raid zone and stupid shit is expected in raid zones - see VP for what stupid shit to expect. Plus there won't be random groups hanging around in ToV. If anything they'll be roaming HoT and WToV where no one will really train.

If you don't allow raid mobs to be pulled to zones - that's fine. That certainly doesn't mean there won't be zone disrupting trains. You must be joking if you think people will clear to LTK or CoTH for 10 minutes. They will aggro trash and train it away, if pulling LTK himself is not allowed.

Imagine if VP you were not permitted to pull the dragons much past their room/pathing nodes. Trains would just get created to move aside the trash and the raid will follow behind. I guarantee it.

But... I've said all I can say on this topic. Just expect every guild to petition every other guilds kill spots and trains generated.

You're really comparing unequal things when you talk about trains in VP and trains in ToV. VP access requires a key that most players on the server will never quest, while ToV is open access. VP is for the most high-end gear on the server, while ToV is also for quests and farming mid-range armor sets from HoT. VP is more similar to ST than ToV, or at least just ToV north.

It's probably more appropriate to compare the encounters in ToV to Trak or VS where we're told not to pull Trak out of his lair or not to pull VS out of the pit.

In the end, the rules are probably going to be more wing specific than all of ToV specific, but if you're causing desync issues by training around all of the trash in NToV while the small guilds are trying to farm armor in HoT, I can guarantee you're going to have a bad time.

[Uuruk]

Project 1999
Status:
Players: UP
914
.:: Server Info ::.

Project 1999 PvP
Status:
Players: UP
156
.:: Server Info ::.

There's a reason red is dead. PvP is why, it's bad.
How many of those people are AFK, sitting in EC tunnel or staring at a wall? God blue is fun.

[Raev]

Probably about the same fraction that are AFK in NFP.

[Colgate]

5 out of 200-300 vs. hundreds out of 1500

hmm

[Samoht]

It's a little off topic, and really has no place in this thread, but you're really upset because blue has more players online an AFK than red has total? I can see that making me mad, too.

But please, leave that shit for red server forums. This thread is for constructive posts about pulling in ToV.

[Raev]

5 out of 200-300 vs. hundreds out of 1500

hmm

When I was playing it wasn't uncommon for there to be so many L1 mules packed into the Freeport bank that it was annoying to target people for trades.

It's a little off topic, and really has no place in this thread, but you're really upset because blue has more players online an AFK than red has total? I can see that making me mad, too.

Nailed it. It's kind of funny to watch Red players troll themselves over and over again. Every post just shows the emotional pain they suffer while devoting their lives to a server that everyone else treats with pure disdain.

[Uuruk]

When I was playing it wasn't uncommon for there to be so many L1 mules packed into the Freeport bank that it was annoying to target people for trades.



Nailed it. It's kind of funny to watch Red players troll themselves over and over again. Every post just shows the emotional pain they suffer while devoting their lives to a server that everyone else treats with pure disdain.

I think the point is you take away the 200 plus sitting afk, at char screen whatever have you and the server gap is not that bad for a pvp server.

[Quickfingers]

TMO on blue official endorses a rotation for Velious. This will allow more casual guilds access to content.

I suggest a 6 hour window for guilds to attempt a dragon then it goes FFA. Add a bag limit of two MAYBE three mobs in Velious so every guild has an attempt to see content. Add a lockout to prevent the same guilds from cherry picking mobs and you're all set!

This would really solve all the issues we have in terms of pulling mobs and racing.


This should also be GM enforced and guilds that break rules should be punished with raid suspensions, we cannot trust guilds to follow it alone.

[Uuruk]

TMO on blue official endorses a rotation for Velious. This will allow more casual guilds access to content.

I suggest a 6 hour window for guilds to attempt a dragon then it goes FFA. Add a bag limit of two MAYBE three mobs in Velious so every guild has an attempt to see content. Add a lockout to prevent the same guilds from cherry picking mobs and you're all set!

This would really solve all the issues we have in terms of pulling mobs and racing.


This should also be GM enforced and guilds that break rules should be punished with raid suspensions, we cannot trust guilds to follow it alone.

Man blue sounds so fun.

[quido]

I think if you have 60 people ready to engage a mob, a GM should just deathtouch the mob to avoid any possible foul play and distribute the loot to the raid.

[Drakakade]

Why do we have so many Red players trolling / derailing this thread, and flaming the Blue server? This isn't RnFs, and as noted this is not the section where RnF + Trolling is permitted.

There is a valid discussion going on in this thread about what tactics should be permissible on the blue server for the GMs consideration. Please leave out the RnFs and trolling.

As noted, Divinity supports not pulling across a zone to the entrance and minimizing zone disruptions as much as possible. We look forward to seeing the basic set of raid rules being implemented in Velious.

We would ask other guilds to consider the "play nice" policy when going into Velious - even tho the C / R / FFA rules do not apply in Velious it would be nice if folks agreed not to warp Yelinak to the ent or use exploits to down mobs. Thx.

[Colgate]

pulling to the entrance on red99 should be allowed

don't like it? kill the other guild(s)

[Smedy]

thank god we have PvP on red99

good luck with this headache yowl

exactly, never any headaches on red cause if you field 70% of the active geared players in your guild there's literally no one that can do anything about it, farm uncontesed like a real bluebie!

swing on over to red , the new blue pals

[Uuruk]

Why do we have so many Red players trolling / derailing this thread, and flaming the Blue server? This isn't RnFs, and as noted this is not the section where RnF + Trolling is permitted.

There is a valid discussion going on in this thread about what tactics should be permissible on the blue server for the GMs consideration. Please leave out the RnFs and trolling.

As noted, Divinity supports not pulling across a zone to the entrance and minimizing zone disruptions as much as possible. We look forward to seeing the basic set of raid rules being implemented in Velious.

We would ask other guilds to consider the "play nice" policy when going into Velious - even tho the C / R / FFA rules do not apply in Velious it would be nice if folks agreed not to warp Yelinak to the ent or use exploits to down mobs. Thx.
Cringe

[krazyGlue]

I just reported 4 people and 2 of them 3 times just from this one thread . Keep it up empire

[randomhero401]

I'm sure most all guilds are willing to agree to this.

As Captain Planet would say... The power in yours. Use the fancy Raid Discussion forum and create a thread similar to the noble agreement.

I would love to post something in Raid Discussion if i had access. Maybe sometime early next year i will be able too.

[Daldaen]

I started it after 3 red posts were made about how Red has PvP? What?

Please refrain from trolling this forum.

[dafier]

This should help:

8. You may not disrupt the normal playability of a zone or area.

Zone/Area Disruption is defined as any activity designed to harm or inconvenience a number of groups rather than a specific player or group of players. This includes, but is not limited to::

-Monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area.

- Deliberately blocking a doorway or narrow area so other players cannot get past.

- Refusing to cooperate with the other parties at a contested spawn site after having been instructed to do so by a P99CSR.

- Making excessive and inappropriate use of public channels of communications (/shout, /ooc, etc.).

- Intentionally causing excessive zone latency (creating excessive corpses, abusing spell effects, etc.).

- Causing intentional experience loss to other players (deliberately impeding fleeing players by blocking their escape route, intentionally training NPCs on other players, etc.).

[dafier]

One more for you:

12. You may not operate a guild that habitually violates these rules.

Disciplinary issues involving guilds may be addressed with the entire guild. Guilds whose members habitually violate these rules may be issued guild warnings, and can even be permanently disbanded.

Guild Leaders and/or officers may be held accountable for any actions of their guild members, in addition to any other actions that may be taken. It is therefore the responsibility of the guild leadership to ensure that all guild members abide by these rules.

[dafier]

The way I read "intentionally training NPCs on other players,etc." is:

If there are groups, raids, or a single person in a pull path that was there before you pull, inform them of your intentions. If they don't move because of some reason, then pulling over them and they die, then that is breaking the play nice rules.

If you check and no one is in the pull path or the area in which you are pulling (already have been because they weren't there in the first place) and suddenly they show up and get in the way, then the people who just showed up are not playing by the 'Play Nice Rules'.

Woooooooooooooooooo

[dafier]

I think if you have 60 people ready to engage a mob, a GM should just deathtouch the mob to avoid any possible foul play and distribute the loot to the raid.

Might as well play World of Warcraft. yucky!

[Uuruk]

Killtacular

[dafier]

After reading the thread, it sounds like a few people need to Learn to Play and adjust according to every situation. Also, don't break the rules. :)

[wormed]

Are people actually debating on whether they can pull dragons to zone in? Jesus. Kill the damn mob in the same wing for fucks sake.

[dafier]

Are people actually debating on whether they can pull dragons to zone in? Jesus. Kill the damn mob in the same wing for fucks sake.

^^^

[Erati]

Are people actually debating on whether they can pull dragons to zone in? Jesus. Kill the damn mob in the same wing for fucks sake.

Well have the Devs root the mobs like they did to solve this problem in classic - part of the beauty of EQ is freedom of players choosing their strats on how to defeat monsters FFS

[Daldaen]

I dunno, I feel Kael is pretty similarly set up. You've got the arena "wing" in the north and Tormax "wing" in the south, each accessed by a single hallway and an archway signifies entry to those wings. May be worth including Tormax and Derakor/Statue/AoW to this. Can't pull them out of their respective wings/beyond the archways as that would disrupt activities going on in other parts of the zone.

Zlandicar definitely shouldn't be pulled out of his room, Yelinak shouldn't be brought out of his room/ring circling his room, WW Dragons should be fought near their spawns or local zone-outs.

Dain... You have to fight in well basically. Velketor/Lord Bob need to be fought in their room otherwise derpytrains ensue.

Wuoshi/Kelorek do whatever you want with.

Is that everything in Velious?

[Samoht]

Tunare.

[Man0warr]

Isn't Tunare rooted where she pops outside her tree when aggroed?

[Daldaen]

Isn't Tunare rooted where she pops outside her tree when aggroed?

Not originally, but if you're engaging Tunare the rest of the zone is likely clear and there is no reason you can't pull her wherever you wish. Other than her root proc I guess.

[Samoht]

Not originally, but if you're engaging Tunare the rest of the zone is likely clear and there is no reason you can't pull her wherever you wish. Other than her root proc I guess.

Well, if you didn't have FTE, I imagine you shouldn't be pulling her anywhere.

[Daldaen]

Well, if you didn't have FTE, I imagine you shouldn't be pulling her anywhere.

Ah yes the fun part of Tunare. Can't kite like CT. But if you clear you get leapfrogged, what to do???

[Ele]

Make raid leaders duel for the kill instead of making 100 new rules and harassing the server staff. Easy enough best man gets the kill

Then there are a hundred rules on what constitutes winning a duel. Clickies, outside buffs, jboots, run speed, epic hastes, potions, time limits, boundaries, class imbalances, etc.

[dafier]

Make raid leaders duel for the kill instead of making 100 new rules and harassing the server staff. Easy enough best man gets the kill

I could see Chest <BDA> winning a lot. :eek:

NOT ranting, NOT raving, just saying. ;)

[Ella`Ella]

Rampage and Foresaken should just come up with a schedule of who will be in what part of ToV/SkyShrine/Whatever and just avoid each other in those areas on those days. There is more than enough content for people to work it out like this and still have shit to do in the between time.

FTE isn't going to cut it in velious...

[Daldaen]

Further musings.

Typically you are not allowed to have more than 2 players past zone in when a mob spawns to contest it. This doesn't make as much sense for some of these.

IE - A guild could be clearing WToV and Dozekar spawns in EToV. They should be able to contest him if they are in a different wing. Likewise if a guild is farming HoT, and a NToV dragon spawns they should be able to contest it. The wings separate themselves pretty well.

Similarly a group could be in Arena and Tormax spawns, or a group could be farming Tormax mobs and Statue spawns.

Especially in the beginning when guilds are factioning, farming armor and questing. They shouldn't be blocked from these zones when mobs are due to spawn because a group of them are hanging out in a different part of the zone.

Velious won't be as simple as FTE I don't think.

[dafier]

Further musings.

Typically you are not allowed to have more than 2 players past zone in when a mob spawns to contest it. This doesn't make as much sense for some of these.

IE - A guild could be clearing WToV and Dozekar spawns in EToV. They should be able to contest him if they are in a different wing. Likewise if a guild is farming HoT, and a NToV dragon spawns they should be able to contest it. The wings separate themselves pretty well.

Similarly a group could be in Arena and Tormax spawns, or a group could be farming Tormax mobs and Statue spawns.

Especially in the beginning when guilds are factioning, farming armor and questing. They shouldn't be blocked from these zones when mobs are due to spawn because a group of them are hanging out in a different part of the zone.

Velious won't be as simple as FTE I don't think.

^^^

Agreed and this makes complete sense.

[Ella`Ella]

Further musings.

Typically you are not allowed to have more than 2 players past zone in when a mob spawns to contest it. This doesn't make as much sense for some of these.

IE - A guild could be clearing WToV and Dozekar spawns in EToV. They should be able to contest him if they are in a different wing. Likewise if a guild is farming HoT, and a NToV dragon spawns they should be able to contest it. The wings separate themselves pretty well.

Similarly a group could be in Arena and Tormax spawns, or a group could be farming Tormax mobs and Statue spawns.

Especially in the beginning when guilds are factioning, farming armor and questing. They shouldn't be blocked from these zones when mobs are due to spawn because a group of them are hanging out in a different part of the zone.

Velious won't be as simple as FTE I don't think.

Daldean,

The current rules were for the sake of Kunark and Classic content only. There was zero consideration given to how they would effect the Velious raid scene.

Also, a single group farming armor or faction should hold no authority on claiming an area over a raid. A 40-60 man raid looking to down a target is there for a temporary purpose of killing a raid mob and moving on. A single group should yield for a reasonable amount of time, until that mob is killed, and then return to their armor/faction farming.

[Daldaen]

Daldean,

The current rules were for the sake of Kunark and Classic content only. There was zero consideration given to how they would effect the Velious raid scene.

Also, a single group farming armor or faction should hold no authority on claiming an area over a raid. A 40-60 man raid looking to down a target is there for a temporary purpose of killing a raid mob and moving on. A single group should yield for a reasonable amount of time, until that mob is killed, and then return to their armor/faction farming.

You misunderstood me.

I'm suggesting that if TMO had a presence doing say... Keldor Dek Torek, a group able mob. And your group were clearing through Tormax area. Then you all of a sudden hear that Statue is up, in the north wing of Kael, your presence at Tormax shouldn't prohibit TMO from competing on Statue. Because with the size of zones and requirements for engaging most of these mobs, your being in a completely different part of the zone with 6 players doesn't give any tangible advantage.

Likewise, if you and a group or two are farming trash in HoTesting. You shouldn't be prohibited from contesting a raid spawn in WToV or NToV. You SHOULD however be prohibited from engaging Dozekar, because he spawns in the wing where you were at, and clearing trash have you a clear benefit in engaging him. However clearing that trash gives absolutely no benefit in engaging a WToV or NToV spawn.

Its all going to get sorted out eventually, but yes, FTE definitely was a system designed for Kunark and Classic targets where a warrior and a cleric can hold off a mob for a few minutes solo. Good luck doing that in Velious.

[Samoht]

Typically you are not allowed to have more than 2 players past zone in when a mob spawns to contest it. This doesn't make as much sense for some of these.

IE - A guild could be clearing WToV and Dozekar spawns in EToV. They should be able to contest him if they are in a different wing. Likewise if a guild is farming HoT, and a NToV dragon spawns they should be able to contest it. The wings separate themselves pretty well.

Similarly a group could be in Arena and Tormax spawns, or a group could be farming Tormax mobs and Statue spawns.

Especially in the beginning when guilds are factioning, farming armor and questing. They shouldn't be blocked from these zones when mobs are due to spawn because a group of them are hanging out in a different part of the zone.

Velious won't be as simple as FTE I don't think.

Disagree. This is exactly the same thing as farming hate/fear armor and having Inny/CT spawn. Don't be in zone while they're in window.

[Daldaen]

Well to start, we don't know what everything's window is. As that hasn't been publicly posted and mobs are continually getting respawned by GMs. I know some guilds have been sitting on spawns watching to see what variance will be like but currently no one is positive what windows are. Just some rough ideas.

That aside, I really don't see how having 1-2 groups clearing WToV trash gives you a benefit over others when contesting a NToV mob. Assuming you are required to kill mobs in their wings.

I can see your argument in the case of 20-30 people, but 6-12 in the opposite side of the zone, I don't see that being an advantage at all. Not anymore than shitting in a sock with 6-12 at entrance (which should've been banished long ago or variance should've been removed).

Having a group in Hate when Inny spawns means you can generate a train and get an engage crew up top and fighting Inny while more people port up. A 5 man team could hold Inny for 3-4 minutes I think before wiping with no reinforcements.

Now in Velious... A group or two is in HoT and Eashen spawns. I don't see them having any option that is comparable to being able to start a kite and stall engage a mob for 3-4minures like you could do with Inny. Eashen will destroy a group of 6 unless it's 5 clerics and a warrior. Even still you have to get out of HoT, past CoV mobs, past KoS mobs, and split him out.

[TarukShmaruk]

Also, a single group farming armor or faction should hold no authority on claiming an area over a raid. A 40-60 man raid looking to down a target is there for a temporary purpose of killing a raid mob and moving on. A single group should yield for a reasonable amount of time, until that mob is killed, and then return to their armor/faction farming.

Why exactly do you and a bunch of poopsocking dorks have authority over me and some people playing the game? What makes us second class citizens?

"move along scrubs, the raid force is here" ?

go fuck yourself

[Ella`Ella]

Why exactly do you and a bunch of poopsocking dorks have authority over me and some people playing the game? What makes us second class citizens?

"move along scrubs, the raid force is here" ?

go fuck yourself

You lost your entitlement to an honest explanation when you resorted to personal attacks/vulgarity - that's probably what makes you a 'second class citizen'.

Take your RnF elsewhere.

[Ella`Ella]

You misunderstood me.

I'm suggesting that if TMO had a presence doing say... Keldor Dek Torek, a group able mob. And your group were clearing through Tormax area. Then you all of a sudden hear that Statue is up, in the north wing of Kael, your presence at Tormax shouldn't prohibit TMO from competing on Statue. Because with the size of zones and requirements for engaging most of these mobs, your being in a completely different part of the zone with 6 players doesn't give any tangible advantage.

Likewise, if you and a group or two are farming trash in HoTesting. You shouldn't be prohibited from contesting a raid spawn in WToV or NToV. You SHOULD however be prohibited from engaging Dozekar, because he spawns in the wing where you were at, and clearing trash have you a clear benefit in engaging him. However clearing that trash gives absolutely no benefit in engaging a WToV or NToV spawn.

Its all going to get sorted out eventually, but yes, FTE definitely was a system designed for Kunark and Classic targets where a warrior and a cleric can hold off a mob for a few minutes solo. Good luck doing that in Velious.


I don't think I misunderstood, I just responded to a focused part of your discussion - I probably should have contextualized better.

I agree that the 2 person in zone while mobs are in window rule will be ineffective, prohibitive and unnecessary come tomorrow. You are right about a party being in one area of the zone not having any impact on the progress of a raid force engaging a mob on the opposite end of the zone. There should be no consequence for this.

However, I also don't think poop-socking will be as significant an issue as it was in Kunark/Classic, making the "same portion of the zone = ineligible to engage" concept antiquated. You are correct about us not know the windows yet (or if there even are windows) and there are no class restrictions (as of yet), which leads me to feel that no matter how great your overall force, Velious content is so sprawling and expansive (in both landmass and content) that it wouldn't really be practical to camp your raid force at/near a single target or even two. If it's stall we're worried about, we can just stick to the current no-stalling rule.

[Ella`Ella]

Dude those rules about no more then 2 in zone were designed for kunark, and will not carry over to Velious. tmk

It's not going to matter on red, Aalpha dawg. We won't have these blue problems.

[Sampten]

I don't think I misunderstood, I just responded to a focused part of your discussion - I probably should have contextualized better.

I agree that the 2 person in zone while mobs are in window rule will be ineffective, prohibitive and unnecessary come tomorrow. You are right about a party being in one area of the zone not having any impact on the progress of a raid force engaging a mob on the opposite end of the zone. There should be no consequence for this.

However, I also don't think poop-socking will be as significant an issue as it was in Kunark/Classic, making the "same portion of the zone = ineligible to engage" concept antiquated. You are correct about us not know the windows yet (or if there even are windows) and there are no class restrictions (as of yet), which leads me to feel that no matter how great your overall force, Velious content is so sprawling and expansive (in both landmass and content) that it wouldn't really be practical to camp your raid force at/near a single target or even two. If it's stall we're worried about, we can just stick to the current no-stalling rule.

Putting a raid force in one wing, waiting for a mob to spawn in another is most likely going to be a no go. I mean, you're "wing poopsocking" at that point, and deliberately giving yourself a competitive advantage by doing so.

GM clarification is going to be in order, and there's been no responses/information by any of the powers that be to this point.

I still encourage "common sense" approach. If something might be consider shady, it probably is, and if you're going to take part in it then you run the risk of raid suspension and loot deletion.

[Pint]

I don't think ppl in wings should disqualify you from raiding in another wing but what happens when 6-12 ppl turns in to ~40 people just mold farming? Velious should just be full ffa for awhile with the exception of not being able to drag raid targets all around zones.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Ah yes the fun part of Tunare. Can't kite like CT. But if you clear you get leapfrogged, what to do???

First guild to kill Ail the Elder gets X hours to clear or two attempts at Tunare. Whichever comes first.

[Ella`Ella]

I think many of you are forgetting that most guilds aren't going to be able to clear a large portion of content either way, to be honest.

Think the Velious era should have much less GM intervention.
Velious should just be full ffa for awhile with the exception of not being able to drag raid targets all around zones.

[Daldaen]

First guild to kill Ail the Elder gets X hours to clear or two attempts at Tunare. Whichever comes first.

This is the sort of style I favor to prevent leap frogging, encourage clearing a little trash and less herpderp trains.

Clearing the 2 entry drakes in NToV, 20 minutes to engage Aaryonar.
Kill Aaryonar, 30minutes to engage your next NToV dragon. 20-30min to engage each of the next successive NToV Dragons.
Break entry 2 wurms/roamers in HoT, 20 minutes to engage Dozekar.
Etc.

Things like the above allow guilds to earn their clears and not have to deal with people leapfrogging and sniping shit. Especially in NToV. As it stands Rampage is the only guild to have killed Aaryonar on beta, however many of the rest of the NToV dragons are weak in comparison. It's going to be shitty for them to see some random guild run past them and pull another dragon that's easier with solid loot after they cleared the gatekeeper.

But using FTE rules that's exactly what's gonna happen.

[Sampten]

I think many of you are forgetting that most guilds aren't going to be able to clear a large portion of content either way, to be honest.

Think the Velious era should have much less GM intervention.

I think you're wrong there. People here are geared much better than they were at the time Velious dropped on Live.

In addition to that, there's no learning curve for the killing mobs. While new content for P99, this is content that's 15+ years old. Everybody already knows how to kill mob X,Y,Z or can quickly search the internet for videos/information pertaining to the mobs back in the day.

While killing Velious mobs is harder in that mobs hit for more, and have bigger AEs, and have more HP, and actually requires a bit of coordination instead of a zerg, the encounters themselves are not new to the player base.

[Sampten]

This is the sort of style I favor to prevent leap frogging, encourage clearing a little trash and less herpderp trains.

Clearing the 2 entry drakes in NToV, 20 minutes to engage Aaryonar.
Kill Aaryonar, 30minutes to engage your next NToV dragon. 20-30min to engage each of the next successive NToV Dragons.
Break entry 2 wurms/roamers in HoT, 20 minutes to engage Dozekar.
Etc.

Things like the above allow guilds to earn their clears and not have to deal with people leapfrogging and sniping shit. Especially in NToV. As it stands Rampage is the only guild to have killed Aaryonar on beta, however many of the rest of the NToV dragons are weak in comparison. It's going to be shitty for them to see some random guild run past them and pull another dragon that's easier with solid loot after they cleared the gatekeeper.

But using FTE rules that's exactly what's gonna happen.

I don't know if getting FTE on the first mob (and killing) should just single handily give you the entire circle in NToV. You could argue that NToV could support two guilds, each going East and West, around the lava at the same time.

Training/leap frogging is going to be an issue until something is sorted out though. There's also the issue of Vulak'Aerr in that the guild that clears the last dragon (usually Lady Nev) is probably going to get sniped on a Vulak engage by another guild just waiting for said mob to drop.

[Ella`Ella]

I think you're wrong there. People here are geared much better than they were at the time Velious dropped on Live.

In addition to that, there's no learning curve for the killing mobs. While new content for P99, this is content that's 15+ years old. Everybody already knows how to kill mob X,Y,Z or can quickly search the internet for videos/information pertaining to the mobs back in the day.

While killing Velious mobs is harder in that mobs hit for more, and have bigger AEs, and have more HP, and actually requires a bit of coordination instead of a zerg, the encounters themselves are not new to the player base.

The player base having better gear on this server is mostly irrelevant in regard to the class-R/casuals. It's more the infrastructure and player type that will restrict them. Taken has a chance because they have a working batphone, coordinating and the numbers of people that respond at all hours. Most other guilds outside of the current class-c don't have any hour numbers needed for velious encounters and moreso, many of them have very little velious experience (live or p99 beta)

[Frieza_Prexus]

It's not perfect by far, but one idea I had for NTOV was bidding low numbers for Aaryonnar kills.

Winner gets first pick in a draft of NTOV dragons for X hours. So Kill aary with 35, you get first 2 picks, loser gets next X, then back and forth in some fashion. That preserves Aary as the classic NTOV bottle neck.

[Samoht]

Winner gets first pick in a draft of NTOV dragons for X hours. So Kill aary with 35, you get first 2 picks, loser gets next X, then back and forth in some fashion. That preserves Aary as the classic NTOV bottle neck.

That seems to be a method that heavily favors TMO or Rampage based entirely on a false-premise. Just because you were able to monopolize end-game raiding during Kunark does not mean you should be entitled to monopolize end-game raiding during Velious because you can do so with fewer people. I'm willing to bet that there are a few guilds that will be capable of clearing NToV shortly after day 1 if not on day 1 itself.

[Frieza_Prexus]

That seems to be a method that heavily favors TMO or Rampage based entirely on a false-premise. Just because you were able to monopolize end-game raiding during Kunark does not mean you should be entitled to monopolize end-game raiding during Velious because you can do so with fewer people. I'm willing to bet that there are a few guilds that will be capable of clearing NToV shortly after day 1 if not on day 1 itself.

There's no perfectly even solution then short of a rotation or similar scheme. The staff has repeatedly stated that rules for the highest end of content, when they are necessary, will be set up to give advantage the strongest and most capable. It's The Vision that has been expressed here.

It's simply one idea in the public arena, not a panacea.

[Raev]

I'm willing to bet that there are a few guilds that will be capable of clearing NToV shortly after day 1 if not on day 1 itself.

If you weren't an anonymous troll, I'd take that bet.

[Samoht]

If you weren't an anonymous troll, I'd take that bet.

Don't hate me for calling you out on your bullshit.

[Pint]

if you kill aary you should be allowed to pick which direction you want to take, but another guild is undoubtedly going to take the direction you didnt choose.

[Raev]

Don't hate me for calling you out on your bullshit.

See if you weren't an anonymous troll, you would have said 'I'm player X and I'll bet you 10k etc'.

[Samoht]

See if you weren't an anonymous troll, you would have said 'I'm player X and I'll bet you 10k etc'.

And if you weren't some jealous idiot, you'd quit calling me names.

[Raev]

If you weren't an anonymous troll, I wouldn't call you one.

[Samoht]

If you weren't an anonymous troll, I wouldn't call you one.

Quit raging, please. You're way off topic.

[Synthlol]

Quit raging, please.

Why do people on the internet think everybody is so upset? Don't they realize how weird it makes them seem?

[Raev]

you aren't even a very good anonymous troll when the best you can do is 'umadbro'

[Ella`Ella]

you aren't even a very good anonymous troll when the best you can do is 'umadbro'

I don't know, raev - he did grief Alarti off RnF...

[Samoht]

Why do people on the internet think everybody is so upset? Don't they realize how weird it makes them seem?

He's clearly upset if he's willing to drag his delusional feud into every thread.

[Raev]

True, but Alarti is actually a fairly weak flame warrior. His posts are neither interesting, nor funny, nor incisive, and his only strong point is that he will keep posting no matter how badly he is embarrassed on the facts of things until the other party gets tired of dealing with 100 ad hominems and deflections. In other words, Alarti is a Ferrous Cranus (http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm), and Samoht is a slightly more steely version!

P.S. I love that site.

[Erati]

pls dont have the Clooneys battling in this thread

Red Velious Day is out in like 10 min - lets see what they do with ToV

[slappytwotoes]

pls dont have the Clooneys battling in this thread

Red Velious Day is out in like 10 min - lets see what they do with ToV

Won't they have the same event to open Velious Blue will? With the scheduling it seemed Red was a dry run of sorts for what's coming to Blue.

[Alarti0001]

I don't know, raev - he did grief Alarti off RnF...

LOL I left blue RnF .... when I left blue. Samoht has a problem arguing a logical concept immediately after someone disagrees with him. He's emotionally compromised.

[Alarti0001]

True, but Alarti is actually a fairly weak flame warrior. His posts are neither interesting, nor funny, nor incisive, and his only strong point is that he will keep posting no matter how badly he is embarrassed on the facts of things until the other party gets tired of dealing with 100 ad hominems and deflections. In other words, Alarti is a and Samoht is a slightly more steely version!

P.S. I love that site.

You seem to think that my purpose in RnF was ever to entertain you. I only present truth and logic. RnF probably isnt the best place for that but I do enjoy watching you guys spin yourselves in circles when you get pissed.

[Samoht]

LOL I left blue RnF .... when I left blue. Samoht has a problem arguing a logical concept immediately after someone disagrees with him. He's emotionally compromised.

And you're an idiot obsessed.

[Alarti0001]

And you're an idiot obsessed.

Last post prior to mine was 1 hour ago.. but you respond in 2 mins... and call ME obsessed.


Idiot.

[Erati]

pls dont have the Clooneys battling in this thread

[Samoht]

call ME obsessed.

You're obsessed. Somebody posted something about you that you disagreed with and you *HAD* to reply.

You should seek help.

[Pint]

this is why we cant have nice things

[Buhbuh]

Join Red

problem solved

[Alarti0001]

You're obsessed. Somebody posted something about you that you disagreed with and you *HAD* to reply.

You should seek help.

Says the guy who emulates my avatar and signature. OK
Add delusional to your moniker

[Samoht]

Says the guy who emulates my avatar and signature. OK
Add delusional to your moniker

Prove it.

[Culkasi]

Could we get back to discussing pulling in ToV and not who is most stupid at forumquesting? The original discussion was actually very interesting and relevant

[Daldaen]

ToV - Kill in Wing
Kael - Kill in Wing
Kland/Sontalak - Kill at spawn/near DN/ToV zone in spires
Zlandicar - Kill in room
Yelinak - Kill in room/surrounding ring
Velketor/Lord Bob - Kill in room
Dain - Kill in Well
Wuoshi/Kelorek - Wherever (no kiting)
Tunare - Wherever


I think thats pretty straight forward. FTE rules need some sort of revisting. Certain areas should have a different claim to "FTE" rights, similar to triggered mobs. The Efreeti's in sky being a perfect example of this working well. You kill mob X, you have 20min to engage the boss.

For Aaryonar for example, once he spawns the first guild to kill one of the drakes (first KoS ones at stairs) has a 20min timer to engage Aary. Killing Aary gives you a 20-30min timer to engage the next dragon of your choosing. Any wipe/failure to engage in 20-30min opens up all NToV merbs. I think this sort of system would work well IMO.

[Alarti0001]

Could we get back to discussing pulling in ToV and not who is most stupid at forumquesting? The original discussion was actually very interesting and relevant

Its super interesting but 100% NOT relevant until you get a GM comment.

[Raev]

As much as I hate to agree with Alarti, when the raid leader of the only guild to actually kill anything in ToV without betabuff and GM hax and such posts a picture of Mark Wahlberg breaking his computer, it's probably not that relevant.

[Pint]

Fight and earn your nice things! work together! Pixel paradise is a state of mind

My comment is regarding all you nerds cat fighting over your forum pride. I did fight and earn all my sweet pixels, been in paradise for yrs now.

[Pint]

crown of rile? sword of rile? prenerf fungus staff?

nah you just a poser with a squeaky voice who would like to cater velious to casual cry hards.

Ok

[wormed]

crown of rile? sword of rile? prenerf fungus staff?

nah you just a poser with a squeaky voice who would like to cater velious to casual cry hards.

calm down, neckbeard. go outside before velious.

[Sampten]

Taken's pull/wipe of KT to the WL zone line did cause issues. It blocked the ability for people to traverse across Kael and is thus a zone disruption.

While that was going on, BDA pulled Wuoshi to the WL/Kael zone line. That too caused people to get hit with an AE and were left to choose to die by Wuoshi in WL or KT in Kael.

I don't think either of these are viable places to be pulling mobs as it directly impacted people trying to get across zones. This would fall under zone disruption and against the play nice policy. As a community we need to agree to amiable solution.

Wuoshi can be pulled just about anywhere in WL, but pulling to the Kael zone line shouldn't be allowed.

I think an easily agreed spot to pull Wuoshi to should be the South East corner (directly south as you zone out of Kael). This will not interfere with people traveling across WL to SkyShrine.

While KT was often pulled to the WL zone line on Live, I think we are going to need to agree to another spot to pull him to so that people can freely run across Kael without being killed in the event of a wipe.

[Daldaen]

Well in fairness - The 20 giant train that kept ping ponging and eventually got dropped on us by people running through caused the wipe. A train which is not classic, none of those mobs between EW and WL should see Invis but they do.

That being said. I agree that pull locations should be agreed upon. But when people don't want to actually have a real discussion in raid forums nothing can be done until GMs stop it. GMs stopped the Zlandicar exploit pull for example because mobs aren't supposed to path single through walls.

For Kael - I suggested the archways into the wings should be the maximum limit which these targets can be pulled to. On live these archways were the first see Invis mobs you would face and they represent separations of wings similar to how doors represent different wings in ToV. I think this would be a good idea of a limit if people could agree to it.

[Ele]

Well in fairness - The 20 giant train that kept ping ponging and eventually got dropped on us by people running through caused the wipe. A train which is not classic, none of those mobs between EW and WL should see Invis but they do.

Another issue with this is people not knowing (or caring) that rooted mobs will add them to the aggro list as they run by it.

[ddxdy]

To be fair as well, once the first train in Kael started, there was pretty much a train going non-stop for the next 12 hours. A lot of that had to do with the Noble agro when people would go to do their skyshrine quest.

I was really tempted last night to FD in the Noble house, turn fraps on overnight, then make a time lapsed video to the tune of let the bodies hit the floor. Everyone who ran in, dropped invis to turn in quest items, and immediately got destroyed by Noble was hilarious. It was easily 1-2 people/min, and one of the main sources of trains all night were people who managed to make it out of the Noble house and book it to zone line.

[Sampten]

Well in fairness - The 20 giant train that kept ping ponging and eventually got dropped on us by people running through caused the wipe. A train which is not classic, none of those mobs between EW and WL should see Invis but they do.

That being said. I agree that pull locations should be agreed upon. But when people don't want to actually have a real discussion in raid forums nothing can be done until GMs stop it. GMs stopped the Zlandicar exploit pull for example because mobs aren't supposed to path single through walls.

For Kael - I suggested the archways into the wings should be the maximum limit which these targets can be pulled to. On live these archways were the first see Invis mobs you would face and they represent separations of wings similar to how doors represent different wings in ToV. I think this would be a good idea of a limit if people could agree to it.

I think we can all agree that last night was a bit of a cluster and was to be expected. I'm very reasonable and don't take issue with it under the specific circumstances that was launch night. That being said, it's one thing to have happen last night, and another thing for this to be considered acceptable and standard procedure.

I think Tormax is going to need to be pulled to a spot somewhere on that path that isn't in argo range of the pathway between WL/EW....someplace south of the Bank. I know there's no "great" spot but it has to be far enough away to not agro people who will be going across the zone.

I know from our standpoint, Taken's KT attempts/trains of mobs/etc. caused us to have people die to Tormax (after the wipe) or to see invis giants that were not in a spot that they were supposed to be due to training off/pulling/etc. We were trying to get by and get to Skyshrine, your pulls/wipe cost us time/disrupted our force, which would go against Play Nice policy. BDA pulling Wuoshi to the WL/Kael zone line further complicated matters as it basically prevented people from running across until the mob was dead.

Again, let me reiterate, I'm not here to point fingers or play blame games. This isn't rants and flames, or a gripe session, nor am I upset at how things played out last night. The purpose here is to establish logical places to pull raid mobs so that it doesn't disrupt zones, and allows all members of the community, whether in a guild or not, the ability traverse across the zones without being squashed by a raid mob.

[Daldaen]

Yep - Kael raid mobs cannot pass the archways which lead into their area. That's simple enough and practical.

Make a rule and guilds will adapt.

[Ella`Ella]

Make a rule and guilds will adapt.

Rules destroy the creativity this game allowed for and prohibits players from 'adapting'.

[Daldaen]

Bump because lol.