Cinda's Charismatic Carillon

[GradnerLives]

Copied over from Velious Beta Spells section as I realized I may have miscategorized this...

Oft overlooked, this song is a veritable necessity in velious.

That being said, it doesn't seem to be working as most sources suggest, seemingly changed as a result of this thread (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62622&highlight=cinda%27s) where giegue suggests that maybe it's working too well.

Giegue reported that it was being boosted by instruments which, according to everything I've been able to scrape together, is the correct way for this song to function, yet it seems like the decision was made to greatly reduce the effectiveness of this song by removing the ability to boost it with wind instruments.

In the same thread Giegue makes an excellent point:

usually when an instrument doesn't modify a song, then that instrument is required to sing it (like with the bard invis/levi/group dispel songs):


Typically songs without instrument modifiers require the instrument, and yet this one doesn't.

Furthermore, many wayback'd sites appear to list it as benefitting from a wind instrument.

From EQLizer (https://web.archive.org/web/20000620123241/http://gameznet.com/eq/spells/bard.html):

11- Cinda's Charismatic Carillon - Adds the targeted NPCs faction to you.
Uses a wind instrument, can be sung for lesser effect.

From EQSongs (https://web.archive.org/web/20010413231922/http://www.eqsongs.com/Songs/Song11.htm):

The size of each faction rank seems to be different so the song may raise you anywhere from 0 to 2 ranks. Using a wind instrument seems to enhance the effect slightly. Using a magic flute will add more faction then a store bought flute.

Some of these go out of our era a bit but there are some supporting comments on the Caster's Realm thread on this song (https://web.archive.org/web/20030109181311/http://eq.crgaming.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1034):

pointless without a decent instrument

just recently, I was selling something to a vendor for 5.5pp, and decided to see if the song would make a difference. I equipped my wind instrument, played the song, and the sell price went up to 6.4pp... so, yeah, this song does have a very good effect.
Aluren
22 bard on Zeb


I understand the implications of a bard being able to stack 1000-1500 faction points, but there appears to be nothing in the history of EQ's resources that says anything to the contrary.

The song's effect has only ever been listed as 120(lvl11)-610(lvl60) and there isn't a single website that says wind instruments have no effect on this value. Many pages reference different jumps, with some suggesting deep scowling to dubious is possible, others saying that indifferent will only jump to amiable, some saying that apprehensive will jump to amiable, and I suspect that this simply stems from people using different instruments at different levels when making their assessment (if using an instrument at all).

Similarly, I've checked all of the patch log (http://www.tski.co.jp/cgi-bin/namazu.cgi?query=cinda&submit=Search%21&idxname=everquest&max=20&result=normal&sort=score) sources (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches.html) and haven't been able to find any mention of the song anywhere. While this could simply be a result of a single song change being too minor to list on its own, there doesn't appear to be any proof of this song having instrument mods added at a later date and a decent amount of information indicating it was affected by wind instruments.


I would personally gain from this change, so feel free to tear it apart, but I just can't find a single source that says instrument mods don't work and I can't find a single source that says the song does less than the 120-610 faction value range at base level. I have found a number of sources that say both of those things are true.

It seems we have an absence of evidence for the way the song currently works on blue and red. That much we can say for sure. There isn't one source that corroborates the no wind mod portion of the song.

It also seems as though we came to the current functionality based on a feeling that it was too powerful, despite a pretty surmountable stack of evidence saying it was right on target for classic immersion.

Thoughts?

[BardPop]

Carrilon definitely should be getting modified by wind instruments at this point in the servers timeline.

[Roufas]

I remember in live having different /con results when wearing a flute and when not wearing one.

Used it a lot in velious to turn in quested armor/stuff, I remember it to the point my guild was still working hardcore to faction up while I could just sing it with amiably faction to go all the way up to ally.

It is that powerful, or at least it should be.

Considering it was never too important in kunark, it is very likely people just didn't care about it's amazing boosts.

[GradnerLives]

Considering it was never too important in kunark, it is very likely people just didn't care about it's amazing boosts.

Definitely my suspicion as well. People would maybe have used it to bank in OT/Cabilis or do hammers but that's about it.

Hell, I didn't even buy it on here until Velious day 2 as I simply never had a need.

[Roufas]

Definitely my suspicion as well. People would maybe have used it to bank in OT/Cabilis or do hammers but that's about it.

Hell, I didn't even buy it on here until Velious day 2 as I simply never had a need.

I actually had this song for a couple years in p99 but always equipped my flute to use it, expecting it would work as in live and boost it up, I never tried it with no flute before because it made no sense to sing the lesser version of it.

What I realized just now due to pure curiosity is that in this server not using the instrument gave me the same /con message, to my surprise.

Then I found this thread.

If this song could not be boosted by an instrument it would be singing based, and EVEN THEN it would be able to be affected by epic, like pretty much every singing song which is not a haste/slow/snare can, because it has the numbers for it.

Every song that is not merely an utility song (aka has no actual numbers for a way to get boosted like invis/levi/item ID/group DA etc etc) gets a boost from instruments, and pretty much every "utility song" let's call them, requires you to equip an instrument, there is no "lesser" or "stronger" version.

It really makes no sense that this one cannot be boosted, it is wind based, it does not require you to equip the instrument ,indicating there can be a stronger (wind instrument) and a lesser (sung) version of it.

I read Giegue's thread, it seems they took something that was working and broke it based on a "hunch", and since nobody else voiced their opinions or had the curiosity to check it (or even cared enough, everybody that played a bard on live knew that patch day was always scary because you never knew when they'd break bards due to the odd coding of the class).

Well I can't be the only bard that played on live to remember this.


Every evidence presented by you is already mountains enough to show that the song is currently broken in p99. But I could just write here about every song and show this simple "bard pattern" to songs I talked about (that would take a good while though).

[ezri]

Currently on P99: This song has no effect at all if you are maximum kill-on-sight faction.

Whether that's a bug, or intended I'm not sure - but if your faction cannot get any worse, then the song point blank wont work making it impossible to cross some zones in velious with the song (with or without instrument).

Personally I'd consider this a bug

[Roufas]

Currently on P99: This song has no effect at all if you are maximum kill-on-sight faction.

Whether that's a bug, or intended I'm not sure - but if your faction cannot get any worse, then the song point blank wont work making it impossible to cross some zones in velious with the song (with or without instrument).

Personally I'd consider this a bug

No, that is actually intended.

People must understand the faction is a point thing that goes from -3k points to +3k points.

More or less:
-3000 to -1999 - lowest faction points
-2000 to -751 - Scowls at you ready to attack! (KOS) (approx. 1300 point range)
-750 to -501 - Glares are you threateningly! (KOS) (approx. 250 point range)
-500 to -101 - Glowers at you dubiously. (Not KOS but very close to) (approx. 400 point range)
-100 to -1 - Looks your way apprehensively. (approx. 100 point range)
0 to +99 - Regards you indifferently. (The majority of NPC's have this neutral standing with you) (approx. 100 point range)
+100 to +499 - Judges you amiably. (approx. 400 point range)
+500 to +749 - Kindly considers you. (approx. 250 point range)
+750 to +1099 - Looks upon you warmly. (approx. 450 point range)
+1100 to +2000 - Regards you as an ally. (Highest level of faction attainable) (approx. 1000 point range)
+2001 to +3000 - highest faction points

Taken from another friend's thread.

Basically this song won't move your standing up but it will boost the points, there is a huge chasm between full kos and dubious though.

Even when the song is fixed to let instruments work on them from full kos you would still be kos while playing it, but we never start full kos to any faction so people may have this confusion.

[ezri]

Roufas - Ally has not been implemented yet - the highest faction you can currently get is Warmly; but I get your point!
I can also confirm that with an instrument (Unicorn Horn) at level 53 I was able to jump from indifferently to Kindly (min549 max749) and dubious to Indifferent (min100 max700) - so it would seem that the instrument is not adding a bonus to the base value of the song.

[ezri]

Ignore my comment about ally not being implemented - apparently it was introduced with Winterland :)

[GradnerLives]

Bumpin.

Any naysayers? Any proof to the contrary anyone can provide? Seems like there's a general consensus that this should be reverted.

Again, I'm only going by the evidence I've been able to find, but all signs seem to point to the song being instrument boosted.

[ravi]

Bump

any word on this being fixed...?

[GradnerLives]

bump

[xblade724]

Absolutely agreed. I spent money on a good wind instrument a while back just for this and STILL realized no effect!

This is broken and had needed attention for a long time. Please fix this during the next patch to add translocate spells next month or 2.

Would love to see some dev attention to this thread.

[Pyrocat]

No, that is actually intended.

People must understand the faction is a point thing that goes from -3k points to +3k points.

More or less:
-3000 to -1999 - lowest faction points
-2000 to -751 - Scowls at you ready to attack! (KOS) (approx. 1300 point range)
-750 to -501 - Glares are you threateningly! (KOS) (approx. 250 point range)
-500 to -101 - Glowers at you dubiously. (Not KOS but very close to) (approx. 400 point range)
-100 to -1 - Looks your way apprehensively. (approx. 100 point range)
0 to +99 - Regards you indifferently. (The majority of NPC's have this neutral standing with you) (approx. 100 point range)
+100 to +499 - Judges you amiably. (approx. 400 point range)
+500 to +749 - Kindly considers you. (approx. 250 point range)
+750 to +1099 - Looks upon you warmly. (approx. 450 point range)
+1100 to +2000 - Regards you as an ally. (Highest level of faction attainable) (approx. 1000 point range)
+2001 to +3000 - highest faction points

Taken from another friend's thread.

Basically this song won't move your standing up but it will boost the points, there is a huge chasm between full kos and dubious though.

Even when the song is fixed to let instruments work on them from full kos you would still be kos while playing it, but we never start full kos to any faction so people may have this confusion.

Just FYI those values are not accurate for P99. Apprehensive is at least larger than 100 range.

[ravi]

bump

[ezri]

Enough evidence was introduced in the first post which indicates wind modifications are classic.

bump

[worch]

Currently, Cinda's Charismatic Carillon already significantly adjusts faction standing. At 60, it bumps my faction from maxed scowling ("cannot get any worse" faction messages) up to apprehensive in certain situations (e.g. in concert with DE racial faction adjustment).

Given how effective it already is, the base value of the song's faction adjustment should be decreased so as to keep the strength of the song when modified by a high-end instrument (around 22 to 25 modifier) on par with its current effectiveness.

[worch]

Currently on P99: This song has no effect at all if you are maximum kill-on-sight faction.

At level 60 it will. You'll notice the song scales up as you level. At 60, the song increases my standing from max kill-on-sight up to threateningly and even up to apprehensive if the racial faction mod is in my favor.

[xblade724]

At level 60 it will. You'll notice the song scales up as you level. At 60, the song increases my standing from max kill-on-sight up to threateningly and even up to apprehensive if the racial faction mod is in my favor.

Just because it's already good doesn't mean to abandon a bug. There's a lot of classes that get some really cheap spells and you can't discard bards every time they get something nice at lvl 60.

Of course it helps -- it was pretty much the only benefit of getting a better horn in this game. NOTHING else really does anything with horn except this one.

[worch]

Just because it's already good doesn't mean to abandon a bug.

Agreed. It should be fixed given the presented evidence. My point is it already significantly raises faction standing, and if the fix simply adds the instrument mod on top of the current song's effectiveness, it would be too powerful. You could increase faction standing from max scowling up to warmly. That'd not be in line with EQSongs (https://web.archive.org/web/20010413231922/http://www.eqsongs.com/Songs/Song11.htm):

The size of each faction rank seems to be different so the song may raise you anywhere from 0 to 2 ranks. Using a wind instrument seems to enhance the effect slightly. Using a magic flute will add more faction then a store bought flute.

[xblade724]

Agreed. It should be fixed given the presented evidence. My point is it already significantly raises faction standing, and if the fix simply adds the instrument mod on top of the current song's effectiveness, it would be too powerful. You could increase faction standing from max scowling up to warmly. That'd not be in line with EQSongs (https://web.archive.org/web/20010413231922/http://www.eqsongs.com/Songs/Song11.htm):

So the evidence is there - but what you are saying, you are deciding if it follows the instrument mod, or a different value? From your quote link alone, it shows that a better instrument means better faction, so it's not a fixed #, much like instruments can have different values.

It certainly won't go from max scowl to warmly ... even in it's current state, my bard goes from threateningly to.... threateningly, in Skyshrine. Even I had a magic drum, about 2.2x more, that would only make it 1 more faction higher, which sounds very appropriate.

[Uthgaard]

No, that is actually intended.

People must understand the faction is a point thing that goes from -3k points to +3k points.

More or less:
-3000 to -1999 - lowest faction points
-2000 to -751 - Scowls at you ready to attack! (KOS) (approx. 1300 point range)
-750 to -501 - Glares are you threateningly! (KOS) (approx. 250 point range)
-500 to -101 - Glowers at you dubiously. (Not KOS but very close to) (approx. 400 point range)
-100 to -1 - Looks your way apprehensively. (approx. 100 point range)
0 to +99 - Regards you indifferently. (The majority of NPC's have this neutral standing with you) (approx. 100 point range)
+100 to +499 - Judges you amiably. (approx. 400 point range)
+500 to +749 - Kindly considers you. (approx. 250 point range)
+750 to +1099 - Looks upon you warmly. (approx. 450 point range)
+1100 to +2000 - Regards you as an ally. (Highest level of faction attainable) (approx. 1000 point range)
+2001 to +3000 - highest faction points

Taken from another friend's thread.

Basically this song won't move your standing up but it will boost the points, there is a huge chasm between full kos and dubious though.

Even when the song is fixed to let instruments work on them from full kos you would still be kos while playing it, but we never start full kos to any faction so people may have this confusion.

No. these numbers are catastrophically wrong. Find one of my old posts explaining faction.

[Roufas]

No. these numbers are catastrophically wrong. Find one of my old posts explaining faction.

I would very much appreciate a copy paste of it and/or a link.

Anyways I didn't check number by number but could see they are not exactly like that in P99, as another poster said.

The main topic still being faction song not working as intended right now of course.

[Uthgaard]

I would very much appreciate a copy paste of it and/or a link.

Anyways I didn't check number by number but could see they are not exactly like that in P99, as another poster said.

The main topic still being faction song not working as intended right now of course.

Actually when I did a search I found my response to this very topic.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=488653

Basically it's not bugged.

[BardPop]

Hey there Uthgaard, your reference on faction tables for r99 is interesting in itself, but the song is bugged as our multiple reference) in the first few pages indicate+ our player memories indicate.

Also in regard to your old post, you are incorrect on this point: "the gaps between the faction levels make it impossible for any instrument modifier in the game to cause the song to raise by more than one faction level "

I routinely raise up by more then one level on my lv 60 with the song not being modified at all, the reason is the amount of faction given by the song scales by level and at 60 is enough to jump from threat to apprehensive, dubious to indifferent, or any other 2 level jump if your faction is in the right spot.

If you have ever played a bard so I will also say that it is extremely easy to test the difference between a moded song and unmodded song, especially since faction levels can be adjusted by manual faction work. With the highest wind mods (2.4) available it should be easier to see the two point jump then it currently is now and should be possible to three point jump up from amiable to ally like rufas is remembering, that's the main bug we were discussing not the fact that faction levels posted by roufas might have been for live eq and not p99

Regarding your post Worch I believe you specifically noted that the "racial mod" caused an additional jump which is what got you apprehensive faction from max scowling. Are you referring to dark elf mask and/or other illusion clicks that can be used for various old world factions? Because I know for a fact you can't get apphrensive from max scowling without an illusion click from your base race. That being said proclaiming the song is "to powerful" because it can be used in conjunction with an illusion just seems ridiculous. Post your faction results with no illusion, if you can break threateningly from max kos I'll be impressed.

[worch]

Regarding your post Worch I believe you specifically noted that the "racial mod" caused an additional jump which is what got you apprehensive faction from max scowling. Are you referring to dark elf mask and/or other illusion clicks that can be used for various old world factions? Because I know for a fact you can't get apphrensive from max scowling without an illusion click from your base race. That being said proclaiming the song is "to powerful" because it can be used in conjunction with an illusion just seems ridiculous. Post your faction results with no illusion, if you can break threateningly from max kos I'll be impressed.

Before (Max scowling Venril Sathir faction from hunting in howling stones. Race is DE due to mask.) and after (apprehensive) are below. Each race (and class & religion for that matter) is a modifier placed on top of the base value. There is an old post where a p99 dev explains how these mods work iirc. Changing your race doesn't change the base value of the faction -- it just uses a different faction-specific racial modifier (e.g. -500 for HE to +500 for DE, or whatever the actual values are for the Venril Sathir faction group).

[Tue Apr 28 04:48:28 2015] a cliff golem scowls at you, ready to attack -- it appears to be quite formidable.
[Tue Apr 28 04:48:30 2015] a cliff golem looks your way apprehensively -- it appears to be quite formidable.

As a half elf, the song improves faction from max scowling -> threateningly.

an undead foreman glares at you threateningly -- it appears to be quite formidable.

My point is that the dev making this fix should be cautious of overpowering the song. If we can make this song 2.5x stronger than it currently is, that is too powerful, given that the evidence presented said this song raises the faction 0 to 2 ranks.

[BardPop]

How is that to powerful? Without your "racial mod" of the dark elf mask to fix your ot faction you only raised it up to threateningly like I remembered you would, racial mods are not unique to bards by any means and can be used by anyone, and we should also note that none of the easy illusion mask items work in velious for raising faction with the quest npcs there. The dwarves, giants, and dragons do not care if you are a dark elf, a half elf, a erudite, an iksar etc etc. So i'm not following you when you say it could possibly become "to powerful", just what use are you thinking of that would make it 'overpowering' when combined with a racial mod? If its not related to velious quests, then what specific thing do you have in mind?

[Uthgaard]

With regards to all the memories about how awesome it used to be, im gonna have to nope.jpg all over you. my main was a bard.

My description is how it should be working. It sounds like there may be something in the source overriding the actual modifier calculation and causing it to make a much larger jump than should be possible.

[Kollins]

...
Typically songs without instrument modifiers require the instrument, and yet this one doesn't.
...


Completely NOT TRUE! There were very few songs that REQUIRED an instrument. The only ones I recall were invis, mcvaxens overhaste songs and the cantanas. This song NEVER required an instrument and originally had different con results when used with and without one. Find proof that it ever REQUIRED an instrument before suggesting such!

See my post in http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62622&highlight=cinda%27s

[BardPop]

I remember in live having different /con results when wearing a flute and when not wearing one.

Used it a lot in velious to turn in quested armor/stuff, I remember it to the point my guild was still working hardcore to faction up while I could just sing it with amiably faction to go all the way up to ally.

It is that powerful, or at least it should be.

Considering it was never too important in kunark, it is very likely people just didn't care about it's amazing boosts.

I didn't play a bard on live velious so I will defer to those who did, but Roufas at least seems to remember being able to get from amiable to ally as classic. You don't remember anything like that Uthgaard?

[Aalderon Crystafire]

, it would be too powerful. You could increase faction standing from max scowling up to warmly. That'd not be in line with EQSongs (https://web.archive.org/web/20010413231922/http://www.eqsongs.com/Songs/Song11.htm):

Not even close to accurate.

Assuming a 20 Wind Modifier it would boost 1220 faction at level 60. This would, prior to any class/religion/race modifiers take you from...

Max Scowling (-2000) to Threateningly (-780)

Max Threateningly (-1049) to Amiable (171)

Lowest end of Dubious (-699) to Kindly (521)

Lowest end of Indifferent (-50) to Ally (1170)

With the best instrument modifier (24 Wind from Fear) you could get from Max Scowling to -536 Dubious. Factor in racial or class modifiers that can easily give you several hundred negative points on top of whatever your current faction is and there are still factions that you can never become non-KOS to even with the best instrument.

Evidence has been provided showing that it is to be modified by instrument. It seems it was working properly here but changed due to a bug report

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=537294&postcount=1

I know this was recently "fixed", but I think it was fixed a little too much :p

I used this song on a mob that was dubious, and without a wind instrument it went to apprehensive. Then I tried with a wind instrument and it went all the way up to kindly. I doubt this is working as intended.

edit: it's also lasting forever, not sure if that's intended.
__________________
Project 1999 (PvE):
Giegue Nessithurtsithurts, 60 Bard <Divinity>
Starman Deluxe, 24 Enchanter
Lardna Minch, 18 Warrior

Project 1999 (PvP):
[50 (sometimes 49) Bard] Wolfram Alpha (Half Elf) ZONE: oasis


Which provided no research links whatsover, merely a 'I think.."

If need be I will compile all the research links from this thread, as well as look for additional ones.

[Roufas]

With regards to all the memories about how awesome it used to be, im gonna have to nope.jpg all over you. my main was a bard.

My description is how it should be working. It sounds like there may be something in the source overriding the actual modifier calculation and causing it to make a much larger jump than should be possible.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=708#m107362463284315

I don't know what else to say, this song got broken based on one person's testimony and now that we give ours you will "nope" all over us, that makes sense.

I repeat what I said in another way, tell me of a single song which is unaffected by instrument/singing mods in some form and is not an utility or a pure haste song.

There isn't one, or at least there shouldn't be. Except now we have this one that got "nerfed" based on 0 evidence, on a gut feeling that it was too powerful.

The only official modification this song ever got was not being able to cast on vendors in live, and that is in a timeline we will never ever reach.

Only a few status never get modified by song modificators, these are : haste, slow and mana regen. Considering most of bard songs are hybrids in that regard, the other parts always get modified somehow.

This song also gets stronger as you level up, like every other instrument modifiable part of every other song out there.

You still don't see the pattern?

[ezri]

I think this thread has gotten a little bit off topic.
We should ignore the fact that illusions add or subtract extra faction mechanics; because that's a separate mechanic - and whilst it can help or hinder the faction song - it is a separate item.

The initial evidence presented is that way back machine says that the Wind Instrument Modifier should be applied to this song. Unfortunately it seems that eqsongs.com has been removed from wayback machine because of robots.txt; and currently the site is shutdown.

Since the Song is also level based, it will also be adjusted based on your character level. Meaning that some quotes of "from indifferently will usually raise you to amiably" depends on what level character you're testing it with and makes the generalisation of "x instrument increases by y amount" a variable target.

The initial evidence presented is that the Wind Instrument SHOULD make a difference to the song. Currently on P99 it doesn't.




JUNE 2000
EQLizer (https://web.archive.org/web/20000620123241/http://gameznet.com/eq/spells/bard.html)
11- Cinda's Charismatic Carillon - Adds the targeted NPCs faction to you.
Uses a wind instrument, can be sung for lesser effect.


APRIL 2001
EQSongs (https://web.archive.org/web/20010413231922/http://www.eqsongs.com/Songs/Song11.htm)
The size of each faction rank seems to be different so the song may raise you anywhere from 0 to 2 ranks. Using a wind instrument seems to enhance the effect slightly. Using a magic flute will add more faction then a store bought flute.

[ezri]

please don't forget the bard love
/bump

[brecon]

Tl : DR:, wind instrument modifiers should apply to faction increases from Cinda's Charismatic Carillon

[xblade724]

Tl : DR:, wind instrument modifiers should apply to faction increases from Cinda's Charismatic Carillon

please don't forget the bard love

[Sadiki]

It's pretty much already been proven, but - this definitely used to be affected by instruments. Whenever I had to use it, I would test it without an instrument, and then with, to see if the instrument put me into the next faction level. It often did.