Stormfeather camp rules (proposal)

[Droog007]

It should be well known by now that Sirken has declared the Stormfeather mob in Iceclad Ocean to be a camp as opposed to an FTE race. The dev team has supported this "change" by removing Stormfeather's FTE shout.

For this particular camp - I would suggest that the rights to engage the mob falls to the person who has been in the vicinity of the spawn the longest. If that person fails to engage Stormfeather within a reasonable time (or dies, heh), then the rights fall to the person who has been there next longest, and so on. As with any camp, going AFK for any length of time is perfectly acceptable as long as you are there to (quickly) engage the spawn. Seems elementary, no?

If we all accept this premise, then a "camp list" becomes the logical course of action so that we, as players, can keep track of camper seniority. I understand that GMs can check server side logs to figure out who's been in the zone the longest... But, as always, we should be doing our best to limit GM involvement in our arbitrations.

In order to keep this running as smoothly as possible, I think we should try to answer questions including, but not limited to, the following:
(Sirken and/or other CSR staff members' input is more than welcome)

Should there be a maximum number of players on the list?
Does your character's presence in the vicinity of Stormfeather's spawn point need to uninterrupted in order to stay on the list?
If someone loses their connection to the server, how long do they have to return without "losing their place"?


In the interest of keeping things simple, I would propose the following: Anyone can come by at any time and ask to be added to the list (There's a good chance the campers will be AFK if you've come well outside of the next spawn window, so be patient, send tells to everyone, and hang around until you get a positive response). No limit to # of people on the list (this should manage itself). Each time Stormfeather spawns, whomever currently has the right to engage does so within 30 seconds. If that person does not engage, then the next person has 10 seconds, and so on. Other people who were present at the time of the spawn move up the list, and everyone that is on the list but not present drops off entirely. If you're present but AFK, you can move up the list as long as you did not miss your chance to engage (even if you were not currently #1 on the list)

Put simply: Be there when the mob spawns, or you're not really camping it. If you're unresponsive when your turn comes up, too bad - you lose. Spawn time is the magic moment - if we try to police maximum radius from the spawn point or keep track of how long since someone went LD or logged to do a xfer, it's become unmanageable. Everyone at the camp should make an effort to keep a copy of the list with pen and paper, /note, or /say - and keep logs for your own protection.

Thoughts? (except for bktroost, whose opinion on the Stormfeather camp is already well-documented :rolleyes: )

[Colgate 2.0]

i suggest putting a priest of discord right next to stormfeather's spawn

only players who have turned in a tome of order and discord may engage stormfeather

[maestrom]

1: no.
2: yes.
3: list "refreshes" every time a pop-window passes. If you're not there, you lose your place.


For those of you who were here at the time, This is how Chancellor of Dizok worked in the months right after Kunark.

Anyone could ask to be added to the list. In order to stay on the list, you had to have your char logged in and there at the spawn but you could be afk. Whenever Dizok spawned, everyone had to check in within a reasonable amount of time (reasonable meant within 30 minutes of spawn). If you weren't there within that time period, then you were taken out of the list. Whoever was going to be killing the next Dizok was in charge of managing the list.


I like this system for several reasons, but the biggest reason is it removes all of the uncertainty. You know when you're gonna get your prod.

[Bill Tetley]

you want a camp list for a mob that could take up to nearly 3 days to spawn?

[Erati]

can someone just text me when my SF slot is up?

would make things easier for me - thanks

[Droog007]

So I've got one serious response that thinks you have to be logged in on-site AND be at the keys when the mob spawns to remain on the list.

I've no problem with this - it will keep the list shorter for sure. OK to go LD here and there as long as you are not missed, I guess (subject to the list keeper's own AFKs and hardassery). Being a much longer spawn than Chancellor, random LDs are bound to happen over a multiple day period. I think it'd be unfair to punish someone that severely for a classic issue ... bad ISP's are punishment enough in and of themselves.

[fastboy21]

If you want the mob, camp it. get in line. wait your turn.

its not for everyone. classic.

[Droog007]

you want a camp list for a mob that could take up to nearly 3 days to spawn?

I don't WANT a camp list. Honestly I think I might be happier with an FTE contest... but it's been ruled otherwise, and so we all must abide. The alternative is a petitionquest every time people can't agree who's up next.

I'm camping it right now ... I've been at the camp since Monday evening. In the interest of leaving things better than I found them, I thought it'd be nice to have a semi-official discussion and some point of reference that will hopefully help keep cheeks drier and GMs tending to other matters.

[kined]

uhhhh.... i dont understand why you think this is such a big issue. weve had camps for years. its the same rules as always. this isnt rocket science....

[bktroost]

you want a camp list for a mob that could take up to nearly 3 days to spawn?

But yeah my opinion is well documented.

uhhhh.... i don't understand why you think this is such a big issue. we've had camps for years. its the same rules as always. this isn't rocket science....

You've lost your mind. An infinite list for a mob that every melee in the game wants and can take over a week of sitting there to "hold you spot on a list" seems like good clean fun? No this isn't classic. There was never 100 people sitting in Icelcad for weeks on end hoping to maintain their place on a fictitious list that is sure to be corrupted.

IF there is a list then for the benefit of all your wives, please let it only be 3 deep or something minimal. To avoid list manipulation, they have to be there. If we had more than three people taking off work for two weeks or more sitting in Iceclad then all the IT departments in the world would suddenly crumble. You know you nerds all work in IT. If an infinite list gets created I will plan my major company network hack scheme to line up with that timeline, so just keep me informed.

You want to sit for 19 hours at a time watching two other people maybe get this bird? Go for it, but that's the only way you make sure lists aren't toxic or manipulated.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

In the wake of Sirken's decision, Divinity had a number of members form and hold a list at the camp with more or less the same rules you listed. There were some non-Divinity that came and participated, too. No drama. It ran pretty smoothly. I'd rather FTE as well, but I've been successful with both methods.

[Evia]

I think the fact that stormfeather ISN'T fte is completely ridiculous. It's a mob that roams the zone and (imho) seems to be designed to "stumble" upon by the original developers. Seems very unclassic in spirit to make it a camp and take that whole "stumble upon a rare mob " vibe right out the window. Just my 2cp.

[Rararboker]

Mob was a camp in classic.

[Spyder73]

Seems crazy this isn't FTE - Doesn't the mob even have a FTE message?

[Evia]

Mob was a camp in classic.

Not on 7th Hammer

[Swish]

More rules means more staff to make sure they're enforced.

Do you really want to play on a server where someone rule lawyers you out of everything you try and camp?

Just play nice, the community isn't that toxic... or is it?

[indiscriminate_hater]

dumb, stormfeather should have an FTE message, problem fixed

*wipes hands*

[Itap]

dumb, stormfeather should have an FTE message, problem fixed

*wipes hands*

he does

[paulgiamatti]

Should there be a maximum number of players on the list?

No.

Does your character's presence in the vicinity of Stormfeather's spawn point need to [be] uninterrupted in order to stay on the list?

Only if you're the runner up.

If someone loses their connection to the server, how long do they have to return without "losing their place"?


Five minutes.

[paulgiamatti]

he does

He did, which wasn't classic. It's been removed.

[maestrom]

Do you really want to play on a server where someone rule lawyers you out of everything you try and camp?

Just play nice, the community isn't that toxic... or is it?

I really really really really do.

No one can rule lawyer you out of a camp if you're following the rules.

The only people that get "screwed" by the rules are people who are breaking them.

[Utmost]

But yeah my opinion is well documented.



You've lost your mind. An infinite list for a mob that every melee in the game wants and can take over a week of sitting there to "hold you spot on a list" seems like good clean fun? No this isn't classic. There was never 100 people sitting in Icelcad for weeks on end hoping to maintain their place on a fictitious list that is sure to be corrupted.

IF there is a list then for the benefit of all your wives, please let it only be 3 deep or something minimal. To avoid list manipulation, they have to be there. If we had more than three people taking off work for two weeks or more sitting in Iceclad then all the IT departments in the world would suddenly crumble. You know you nerds all work in IT. If an infinite list gets created I will plan my major company network hack scheme to line up with that timeline, so just keep me informed.

You want to sit for 19 hours at a time watching two other people maybe get this bird? Go for it, but that's the only way you make sure lists aren't toxic or manipulated.

I brought wife faction to kindly having to stay logged on at SF camp for a week. It's back to dubious, thx double exp

[Droog007]

You want to sit for 19 hours at a time watching two other people maybe get this bird? Go for it, but that's the only way you make sure lists aren't toxic or manipulated.

Did you miss the part about AFK being fine? Like with any other camp? Again, I don't WANT this. I'm trying to make something that sucks into something that's less headache for the staff. Because people WILL show up and wait for days on end. People WILL be shitty and manipulate the list... this is when GMs and logfiles come into play. I am trying to establish a framework to minimize the shittyness.

You'd rather just endlessly plead with P99'ers to stop poopsocking? GFL.

[Droog007]

I brought wife faction to kindly having to stay logged on at SF camp for a week. It's back to dubious, thx double exp

I had pretty much the same experience. I was basically unable to "play" EverQuest for 3-1/2 days, except for being on-hand during windows. She loved it.

[Droog007]

OMG, the horror!

BTW.. using a prototype of the framework I described, I got my mask this week. It was very relaxed and amicable - people congratulating the #1 spot when they got their spawn. It's almost like a brotherhood... I'll always remember my time on the ice with Rainbowcop, Philliez, Someyung, and Muaytai. Corrupt and toxic? Not on my watch...

Speedfeather forever! Never, never Somedayfeather!

[Rooj]

I'm confused. What was wrong with FTE? It's a lot less boring, considering you can actually go play the game while waiting for spawn times instead of sitting in the same spot doing nothing all day (or longer). That's not a fun game and I don't understand why we'd choose to make the game less fun when we don't have to. Gathering at a spawn point when the spawn time is nearing and competing for FTE is classic in not only Everquest but most MMOs from it's era. I'm pretty sure that's what most people are used to. Claiming that something like Stormfeather is a camp is pointless, because camps weren't formally supported by SOE and on live if you were "camping" Stormfeather you by no means had any rights to the loot. If you were to petition back then, the staff would've told you that either the first to hit the target had the loot rights, or the group that did the most damage. So we should really be picking between one of those two. From what I've seen on the forums, keeping up with lists does nothing but cause drama and frustration. If a list is truly the way this is going to go (barf), then the staff should probably require the list be up to date in it's own forum thread at all times.

[Daldaen]

FTE is better for most people. Show up for 1-2 hours and try. If you don't get him give up and come back next day. You're free to play the game or do anything else in between.

Problem is anyone with bad ping will inevitably always lose an FTE race.

Camping is better for people with bad pings or people with no lives who can sit at a camp for 6 days straight.

Tough to be fair to everyone. I'm a big fan of FTE with minimal/no variance. No worries if you lose, you spent very little time contesting the spawn, just try again next spawn.

[Rooj]

Problem is anyone with bad ping will inevitably always lose an FTE race. Camping is better for people with bad pings or people with no lives who can sit at a camp for 6 days straight.

It's 2015, bad ping no longer exists, unless there is a physical issue with the connection which causes lag, and no one in that scenario is going to expect to claim anything, rightfully so.

And I certainly see no reason to reward those with no lives as that's a reward in itself. ;)

[Valse]

It's 2015, bad ping no longer exists, unless there is a physical issue with the connection which causes lag, and no one in that scenario is going to expect to claim anything, rightfully so.

And I certainly see no reason to reward those with no lives as that's a reward in itself. ;)

Sure it does. Someone in new york is going to have a 30-40ms ping, someone in seattle will be in the 110-140ms range through no fault of their own...just physical distance to the servers in New Jersey. 1/10th of a second difference to send your information to the server is a lifetime when people are mashing the buttons to be the first to send an instruction (like casting a net on a mob).

[Daldaen]

It's 2015, bad ping no longer exists, unless there is a physical issue with the connection which causes lag, and no one in that scenario is going to expect to claim anything, rightfully so.

And I certainly see no reason to reward those with no lives as that's a reward in itself. ;)

People halfway across the world from you have worse ping connecting to a server based in America than you do. Also there are people who live in the middle of no where with shit internet being the only option.

Those are who gets the shaft

[maestrom]

The problem with FTE on targets like Stormfeather and NPCs like Charisa is they encourage cheating, and allegations of cheating.

Spamming your engage macro isn't any better.

An earlier post has it right, I think. This guy was intended to be stumbled upon. Dev's should give him the SRO AC treatment x50 or so.

Put 10-20 spawn points randomly around the zone and make him spawn with a really creative timer. Design it such that, statistically, he shouldn't spawn in the same place twice in the same couple of weeks. Lets get the mystery going.

Until then, he's a camp. You want him? Get on the list and wait. Put your hacks away and wait the way his Holiness Brad McQuaid intended.

[Heebo]

The problem with FTE on targets like Stormfeather and NPCs like Charisa is they encourage cheating, and allegations of cheating.

Spamming your engage macro isn't any better.

An earlier post has it right, I think. This guy was intended to be stumbled upon. Dev's should give him the SRO AC treatment x50 or so.

Put 10-20 spawn points randomly around the zone and make him spawn with a really creative timer. Design it such that, statistically, he shouldn't spawn in the same place twice in the same couple of weeks. Lets get the mystery going.

Until then, he's a camp. You want him? Get on the list and wait. Put your hacks away and wait the way his Holiness Brad McQuaid intended.

NOT CLASSIC

[maestrom]

NOT CLASSIC

hehe. Thanks for that :)

[Rooj]

Get on the list and wait. Put your hacks away and wait the way his Holiness Brad McQuaid intended.

As I said before, the original rule was whichever group did the most damage. There was no real FTE but some GMs attempted to enforce that. There's a reason they are using most DPS on the EQ progression servers instead of FTE or anything else - because that's what "his Holiness Brad McQuaid" intended, right?

[maestrom]

As I said before, the original rule was whichever group did the most damage. There was no real FTE but some GMs attempted to enforce that. There's a reason they are using most DPS on the EQ progression servers instead of FTE or anything else.

I don't ever remember a "most DPS" rule. As far back as I can remember, there was a very strict No-KS rule on Nameless and Brell. People even got a talking to from guides back in classic for killing an orc pawn that someone else had engaged.

This DPS race bullshit going on on the progression server is a ridiculous byproduct of the fact that live has like 1 GM working part time for 12 different games and they literally cannot afford to hire more GMs to enforce any kind of PNP. If you go back and read the posts on the live forums there is a TON of uproar over the abandonment of the 16 year old "Don't kill shit another group has a right to" in favor of this DPS race nonsense (aka wild west).

In fact, on servers that didn't have GM enforced rotations (like nameless), the rule was First in Force for pretty much anything.

In short. There was never a "do the most damage" rule in EQ before this most recent group of progression servers.

[Toodles]

...
If we all accept this premise, then a "camp list" becomes the logical course of action so that we, as players, can keep track of camper seniority. I understand that GMs can check server side logs to figure out who's been in the zone the longest...


Like any camp, this is where it gets murky. You want to have a player run list, which from how they work on this server - involves allowing people to afk, leave zone and even log, as long as they are available when their turn is up. Yet simultaneously you are using time spent in zone as a benchmark.

If that's the the case, then the usual list variables are no longer valid.

It can't be both ways.

Having said all this, it should open up the discussion that all non PH, non raid, non FTE mobs (like Vessel for example), should share the same rules as Stormfeather.

[Rooj]

Everyone has a different story for what their experience with the rules was. But DPS race seemed to be the most common (and I think a lot of people are probably remembering times that were far after classic than actually classic...)

[maestrom]

Everyone has a different story for what their experience with the rules was. But DPS race seemed to be the most common (and I think a lot of people are probably remembering times that were far after classic than actually classic...)

Can we get a nose count on who remembers the official rule being "whoever did the most damage"?

Because that's not a rule. Thats just the game mechanic (awarding exp and loot rights to the group that did the most damage).

I think I would have remembered packs of geared out rogues going around KSing raid targets.

[Rararboker]

"whoever did the most damage" was definitely not on my classic server during kunark or velious.

[Rooj]

Thats just the game mechanic

That is why it was the rule... Easiest to enforce - because it didn't need to be enforced - the game did it for you. You're probably just remembering a pro-Luclin time when SOE decided they didn't like most DPS anymore.

[Droog007]

Like any camp, this is where it gets murky. You want to have a player run list, which from how they work on this server - involves allowing people to afk, leave zone and even log, as long as they are available when their turn is up. Yet simultaneously you are using time spent in zone as a benchmark.

If that's the the case, then the usual list variables are no longer valid.

It can't be both ways.

Having said all this, it should open up the discussion that all non PH, non raid, non FTE mobs (like Vessel for example), should share the same rules as Stormfeather.

Player in the zone longest would come up in a GM arbitrated dispute, as would logs (both client and server). People are going to go LD while waiting for this thing. People who are 3rd in line are gonna run off and try to tag Lodizal, or switch PCs, etc. between windows. I'm just trying to establish a framework of guidelines for burdens of proximity and non-AFKness so it comes to GM arbitration less often.

It seems obvious that #1 on the list shouldn't be going anywhere (on purpose). It also seems obvious that you need to engage the mob quickly when your turn comes up... That's about as far as the PnP carries us here, but if we can loosely agree on what it takes to be "on the list", then we can handle things ourselves a lot more often.

This is why I'd rather not try to police how far people stray or for how long they camp out/go LD... Join the list, keep the list, be there when it spawns and engage when it's your turn or you're out (until you come back). Run logs to protect your interests and keep people honest.

[drktmplr12]

This thread just won't die.

[Droog007]

Even if all we do is quibble over details, this thread can still serve its purpose ... we get people's expectations out in the open and discussed. Henceforth more people showing up for their Stormfeather tour of duty will be on pretty much the same page.

I have no illusions that this camp will always be run a certain way...