Vox Pathing?

[Taluvill]

Just a thought. If this has been posted before, please forgive me. I don't remember guilds pulling Vox through the cubby with the giant and icy terror adds that come with her, nor do I remember her coming out through the cubby with only a few adds.

Shouldn't she path around through the door at the king room where the diplomat spawns/sits? In essence, she would aggro more giants and mobs running through that direction. This way it would fix a pathing issue and a known exploit of the windowed client.

This is just how I remember it, and Logically how it should work. If we could get others comments on what they remember/think that would be awesome. It was obviously an ovesight of the developers not to tether vox like they did for Nagafen, but I don't remember her pathing through the cubby, although honestly I also don't remember guilds pulling her to the king room either.

[Rogean]

Since our pathing system is different, we don't have the same collision detection that live had. The work around we did for nagafen was setting up the leash system, but that needs some improvements. I think using the leash and making it so she drops her primary target's aggro when leashed would work fine.

[Taluvill]

Since our pathing system is different, we don't have the same collision detection that live had. The work around we did for nagafen was setting up the leash system, but that needs some improvements. I think using the leash and making it so she drops her primary target's aggro when leashed would work fine.

That would probably work fine, I think you understand the problem though. Ideally her pathing would go as I said, but thats in a perfect world.

[baub]

I dunno, seems pretty realistic that she can fit through that tiny rock hole imo!

[Ponden]

Weren't the leashes added in Kunark when level requirements to engage were put in? I couldn't find any patch notes, aside from these two links. These are the only two patches I found containing Lady Vox.

Patch on June 22, 2000

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2000-1.html

Patch on October 08, 2009 states they added the leash to Vox.

http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/game_updates.vm?date=10/08/2009

If you go to http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=2620 and search the words "Method II" you will see that a post being made on 2005-01-05 claims that their second pull method works because Lady Vox is *not* tethered to her room.

[Rhalous]

Edit: repost

[Rogean]

The leash has nothing to do with whether there was one on live or not. If you actually read my post, you'd see that it is a solution to a problem of not having the same collision and pathing system that live did. I don't care what live did with Vox/Nagafen in kunark other than the level limit which we will be implementing.

[Taluvill]

The problem with those patch notes Ponden is that the game code (collision, as rogean said) doesnt work the way it did on live. Like a few other things on this server, we need to find work arounds to fix things to the best that we can.

A leash system for vox would do just that.

[Mee123]

You don't remember guilds pulling her to the King room? Did you even play Everquest pre-leashing?

[Taluvill]

*shrug* I don't remember it happening on E'ci, no.

[Ponden]

I understand that. But that still takes the pulling Vox to King room out of the picture, which was a legit strat for plenty of guilds in classic. There could be a better fix. What it could be? Not sure, I'm not creative.

Also, since we are discussing Lady Vox, when was using Lev to get into Vox's lair against rules? You don't need to be windowed mode for it, you just move forward when your "lev" is at its highest point. I remember mages doing it all the time to get places for COTH.

[Salty]

Also, since we are discussing Lady Vox, when was using Lev to get into Vox's lair against rules? You don't need to be windowed mode for it, you just move forward when your "lev" is at its highest point. I remember mages doing it all the time to get places for COTH.

But you can charm in fear.
Can't use manastones on planes before Kunark.

So, ya, things are like that around here.

[Hobby]

I recall Vox rampaging around the Permafrost Zoneline on Mith Marr once or twice...just as well as using the King room to kill her in.


But all of that is without proof.

[astuce999]

I remember Vox as being leashed to her lair for the longest time, and then when they changed the direct x (I think from 7 to 8) and it broke the boats, that's when she became unleashed. She was able to get out of her lair and fight for a little bit, but then she would warp back to the lair (and if damaged enough start to summon the whole raid).

I used to go and sometimes lead a lot of pick up raids for vox during the velious/luclin era, and we always had to fight her in her lair. When she would get out she would warp back and we all camped to clear aggro.

It wasn't until much later, like 2005, when I had a super-twink SK that I would "solo" her with that I noticed she was no longer tethered, and I would fight her in the king room.

Memory can always be faulty, using the wayback machine the only thing I was able to find that mentioned anything about strats (I mean no one mentioned fighting her anywhere else than in her lair), but there was one comment that was talking about pulling the lair and it said:

"No one in their right mind would attack Vox without first pulling the giants out of the lair. Just be careful to make sure Vox is not residually agro -- use bind sight (by targeting the rock in the king room). If she's running into the wall and warping back to her spawn point, she's agro. "

I know it's not cement-solid proof, but it's something. This is from

http://web.archive.org/web/20010702163529/eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=2620

which seems to be during the kunark era. Perhaps before kunark she was not leashed and it's only then that they leashed her, I never raided her personally at that time so I can only speculate.

Has anyone found comments that would suggest she was not leashed during classic?

cheers!

[Mee123]

Vox wasn't leashed until around the time of the level cap, and then it was the level capping that if someone level 53 and above went into the room they were immediately teleported out. This was done so that 53+ could still go into perma to farm or pl or beat the monkey but do nothing during the actual Vox fight.

[Taluvill]

Well, in an ideal situation, she would path through the diplomats door, like i said in previous posts, which means the giants have to be cleared or you will aggro 10+giants/terrors onto your raid.
People have said she was leashed much later on (end of kunarkish?) and it makes sense for the exact reason mee123 said. The problem that we have here is that, from what i can gather from rogean said, something (collision as he mentioned) is preventing them from pathing vox around through the door when you aggro her.

Thats why leashing is being discussed now as early as it is. It's quite simple to understand, and everyone here agree's that fighting her in the king room was an accepted strat, but we need to find a work around for it I guess.

[Ponden]

Its funny that this issue is brought up as a bug after we pulled Vox out of her lair like that. First lev was complained about, now this.

Its sad its trying to be changed now, instead of 13 months ago when the server launched. Not trying to R&F here, but that is how it seems. If she is leashed, its not classic. You cant just leash every mob with broken pathing, but I'm not Nilbog.

[Ponden]

Adding to this, the giants in her lair were see invis, and those were never bug reported. So, this post just seems to be, more or less, of a "lets cripple someones Classic era'd strat."

[guineapig]

My first ever Vox kill back on live was in 2003 (random pick up raid). I clearly remember her dying in one of the ice giants halls. I remember being so disappointed that I couldn't see much of her besides a torso and occasionally her head would pop down from the ceiling. Not sure if this is the same thing as being able to travel through the little hole but that was my experience.

[Hobby]

Also, i seem to recall a time when WI was around where Vox was trained through 3 or 4 guilds all the way to the entrance TWICE, wiping 100+ people.


This was about 4 or 5 months ago.

WI, Div, Trans..was bound to be IB and DA somewhere in that mix as well unless they were staying just in sky at that point (Which may of been the case).

[virtue64]

so wait I don't understand, the collision and pathing is not how it was in classic, so you want to add a leash (which was also not classic) to make it more classic? how does that work?

[Chanus]

so wait I don't understand, the collision and pathing is not how it was in classic, so you want to add a leash (which was also not classic) to make it more classic? how does that work?

They want to make it so the current strategy doesn't work, is all.

You know, because that'll stop those mean old uber guilds!

[Taluvill]

WI, Div, Trans..was bound to be IB and DA somewhere in that mix as well unless they were staying just in sky at that point (Which may of been the case).

I was there for every trans kill that we got a shot for and we didn't pull through to the zoneline not once, we had a specific strat that we followed through every time, which I can honestly say probably wiped us a bit more than we would want to say, even during the rotation period where we grudgingly had to give IB spawns at that point.

I just want to apologize if this came off like I'm trying to fix it after one guild beat my guild to the spawn. I would like Vox to path through the door like she is supposed to, but a work around works as well if its not possible to get it working correctly. That was the point, anyways.
I'd like this project to be as classic as possible just like 90% of everyone else here, and that was the first time I had personally seen vox with my own eyes being pulled through the cubby, so I spoke up yo.

[Hobby]

I gurantee you that Vox was ran to the Zoneline and wiped the zone a couple of times...if not to the zoneline, atleast past the king room. If it was pulled through cubby or not, I do not know, but i would assume it did path back through it.

Simply stating Vox was ran out of her room and wiped the zone from a comedic stand point rather than using it as an arguement.

[Loke]

I don't know what the pathing is suppose to be like honestly, and for someone who has never seen her pulled out of her lair, it surprises me that you claim to know that she should path through the giants. I always viewed the giants as kind of the back way into her lair (supported by the notion that you have to move a rock out of the way to enter her lair from that direction). While it is odd that such a large dragon would fit through the tunnel that she currently paths through - going through the giant area is just as odd (if not more so).

I'm not trying to support one way or another - just saying that it makes just as little sense for her to path through the giants as it does for her to path through the tunnel you have to lev up.

As far as how she pathed on live, I never pulled her so I really can't say one way or another.

[Skope]

The times divinity has killed/fought vox she was never pulled to the zoneline. The "cubby" is close enough that her fear can hit about half of the king room, but that doesn't cause aggro and she never pathed there that I've seen. Farthest I've ever seen her move was the clickable rock before you get into her room.

There's been talk of the lev trick as being an exploit... what? it's completely viable for getting in/out of her lair, that's why it's there in the first place. She should be tethered for the sake of any noobie in the zone, but frankly I don't see why there's been another mob added that wasn't there on live. It just makes no sense to me

[eriamjh]

Does anyone really believe that she was intended to be pull-able out of the lair? Really?

Vox never came out of her room except when she bugged. She certainly didn't fit out the back door and would continuously run into the rock door and stick/warp back and come at it again.

Only once did I ever see her bug out of the lair on live, and she ended up running into the 3 giant spawn room (behind the diplomat) in from behind the giant metal gate. This was after 10+ mins of people having agro on her so it was obviously a bug of one kind or another that got her out of the lair.

[Taluvill]

I don't know what the pathing is suppose to be like honestly, and for someone who has never seen her pulled out of her lair, it surprises me that you claim to know that she should path through the giants. I always viewed the giants as kind of the back way into her lair (supported by the notion that you have to move a rock out of the way to enter her lair from that direction). While it is odd that such a large dragon would fit through the tunnel that she currently paths through - going through the giant area is just as odd (if not more so).

I'm not trying to support one way or another - just saying that it makes just as little sense for her to path through the giants as it does for her to path through the tunnel you have to lev up.

As far as how she pathed on live, I never pulled her so I really can't say one way or another.


I was just taking it from a logical point of view. I don't know that it did that for a fact personally, and friends have confirmed that it should go through the door, although it just seems logical that she cant fit through the cubby. Not saying it didn't happen, but when other people can confirm it for me, along with logical reasoning, the answer should be pretty obvious.

[Ponden]

Not saying it didn't happen, but when other people can confirm it for me, along with logical reasoning, the answer should be pretty obvious.

Can you link videos please? Leash was added to Vox on live, so you can't use live as an example.

[Aadill]

Can you link videos please? Leash was added to Vox on live, so you can't use live as an example.

Live has been used as an example for fixes/workarounds in many situations.

[Ponden]

If you aren't posting anything constructive here, don't post it at all Aadill.

As far as I know, giants in EverQuest have always seen Invis and some see Hide. That is how it has always been. I have searched the patch note archive on SoE's website as well as old Vox kill guides/Permafrost guides, and not one of them said the giants didn't see invis, Vox pathed a certain way, or it was an exploit to levitate up the cubby. I haven't seen any solid proof being posted by you guys other than "lol my friend says so".

Nobody minds getting changes made to the game. If you want to change the pathing for Vox, do it. Don't add a leash to a mob that shouldn't be leashed. Don't QQ about a mechanic that was always used by nearly everyone(levitate) now. Naggy wasn't supposed to get a leash til Kunark, and that happened already. I'm done with this thread.

[Loke]

I was just taking it from a logical point of view. I don't know that it did that for a fact personally, and friends have confirmed that it should go through the door, although it just seems logical that she cant fit through the cubby. Not saying it didn't happen, but when other people can confirm it for me, along with logical reasoning, the answer should be pretty obvious.

Not trying to start an argument here, but how is it more logical that she warps through a smaller hole covered by a rock? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but that is how you enter the lair through the giant area - through a small player sized hole covered by a rock. Just don't see how that makes more sense than her going through the cubby.

Again, however you want to do it works for me, I'm sure everyone on the server will adapt to whatever change is made - it's not like the way it is now gives any one group an advantage over another, just like a change will not benefit any one group. It just seems to me there is a lot of "a friend of mine remembers..." and "I don't know, but it makes more sense..." statements in here arguing for a change, but no actual hard evidence to support it.

[Gwence]

I dont know why this is even an issue, multiple guilds pulled vox out of her lair (through the back, or the front), their were multiple guilds that fought her in the lair as well, /shrug. It's also amazing people are trying to explain out logistics of what a mob can and can't fit through on everquest, whether it be p99 or eqlive mobs could always do things that would make you look twice.

http://www.kupka.net/eq/vox/vox5.html

http://www.kupka.net/eq/vox/vox6.html

http://www.kupka.net/eq/vox/vox7.html

took me about 4 minutes to find these, Im sure if I spent actual research time on it, could find a bunch more.

I guess the physical logistics of a dragon being able to have half her body through a solid object (in this case a wooden door) and her head phasing into solid rock is something that escaped those badass live developers as well.

[Itchybottom]

I guess the physical logistics of a dragon being able to have half her body through a solid object (in this case a wooden door) and her head phasing into solid rock is something that escaped those badass live developers as well.

Actually it didn't completely. Mobs "run in place" for a while before making it through a tunnel/door if they're bigger than the opening. During Kunark, a friend of mine used to solo the apes outside of Dalnir using a weighted axe on his craptastic geared warrior by collision kiting them down to 50% before engaging for actual toe-to-toe melee. They still eventually get through, but the collision detection on the model box is indeed implemented on live.

There was also collision detection for feared mobs, that would 32k themselves if they ran into a wall for too long (or fell under the world.) That however, was a horrible feature.

[Salty]

I dont know why this is even an issue, multiple guilds pulled vox out of her lair (through the back, or the front), their were multiple guilds that fought her in the lair as well, /shrug. It's also amazing people are trying to explain out logistics of what a mob can and can't fit through on everquest, whether it be p99 or eqlive mobs could always do things that would make you look twice.

http://www.kupka.net/eq/vox/vox5.html

http://www.kupka.net/eq/vox/vox6.html

http://www.kupka.net/eq/vox/vox7.html

took me about 4 minutes to find these, Im sure if I spent actual research time on it, could find a bunch more.

I guess the physical logistics of a dragon being able to have half her body through a solid object (in this case a wooden door) and her head phasing into solid rock is something that escaped those badass live developers as well.

Do you guys clear all the giants or leave them up? If they are left up then ya, I would say you guys are voxfags.

I think the only argument that holds weight is using the pathing through the tunnel to bypass the giants.

Not really a big deal regardless. I'd sit them near zone-in just so people run into them and die, imo.

[Aadill]

All of those pictures indicate that Vox pathed through the tunnels and not the "backdoor cubby" which is the entire point of this post. The pathing of Vox, even by your own reports, is incorrect.

A solution was that the mob would be tethered the same way as Nagafen. Considering the fact that many people are aware that Vox was capable of leaving the lair, tethering doesn't make sense according to CLASSIC Everquest. However, seeing as live has been the basis for fixes and the fact that Vox was eventually tethered due to the fact that Vox was warping through walls, it is a reasonable solution. If the pathing of Vox were fixed to follow the long tunnels through all the giants, that would also be a viable solution.

From Rogean's post, it sounds like the idea of tethering would probably easier to implement due to not having to deal with collision detection and whatnot.

[Ponden]

A lot of mobs warp through walls, not just Vox. Are we going to tether those? How about the Kunark beta, where 50% of the zones are warping through walls/structures? Plane of Fear - you can fear mobs through the houses. Pathing has always been buggy on EQemu. If you tether one mob, tether every named. Just have a zerg fest at the spawn.

If you pull an LDC in SolB - you can make it path two different ways. Same with FG's. Same with a lot of mobs in a lot of zones. The issue will be there regardless of it being a raid target or not.

[Trimm]

A lot of mobs warp through walls, not just Vox. Are we going to tether those?

I think the point is, pulling Vox through a wall in order to bypass the giants trivializes the fight that much more. It should be a risk/reward scenario. Sure, you can pull her to the zone in, however you must deal with the 6-8 Ice Giants that she is supposed to path through.

I think Lady Vox, a raid encounter, deserves a little more attention than a LDC.

[Trimm]

http://www.kupka.net/eq/vox/vox5.html

http://www.kupka.net/eq/vox/vox6.html

http://www.kupka.net/eq/vox/vox7.html


Your own screenshots are working against your argument. Vox was able to be pulled out of the lair, yes. She was pulled through the tunnels and Ice Giant area to the double wooden doors.

You should not be able to pull her through a wall to bypass the giants.

[Barfight]

What I see here:
All IB argue for no tether, all DA argue for a tether.

One guild can't all have the same opinion. It looks like you're just arguing for it for personal reasons. I'd like to see an IB come and argue for tethering or a DA argue for the current situation to continue.

Either way, I'll throw my 2 cents in on this. I highly doubt that the designers of EQ put an elaborate lair in Permafrost to house Vox, without intending you to actually clear it. However, it appears as though it was possible on classic, so if the server GMs decide we have to put up with this classic feature we'll all have to learn to live with it. In the interest of actually having an encounter I think it would be a better solution to not allow her to leave the lair, but it's not up to me.

[guineapig]

Wouldn't this be very similar to pulling Phinny to the zone line?
You can do that too but it is considered an exploit despite the fact that it was occasionally doable on live. I know people tried that on this server and were given a finger wagging for it.

How can anyone say with a straight face that warping a boss mob to a dungeon zoneline is a legit tactic? That's just ludicrous.

So far, no evidence has been provided that Vox was ever able to path through the cubby. As others have stated before, Vox pathing in to the giants hallway was never in question and is in fact something that even I remember as recently as late Velious.

The question remains, is skipping the entire dungeon something that trivializes the encounter? Personally I think it absolutely does. And if the encounter has been trivialized by taking advantage of a game flaw then it is considered an exploit according to the official rules.

[Aadill]

What I see here:
All IB argue for no tether, all DA argue for a tether.


The original bug report has to do with the fact that Vox is not pathing through the correct area before coming out of her lair, not that it shouldn't be. Rogean suggested the idea that tethering the mob would be a solution, because the pathing/collision detection on the server does not match live and presumably would be harder to accomplish. Considering the evidence provided by Gwence's pictures, we should all agree that Vox should running through the ice giant tunnels, but not using the "backdoor cubby" that you can lev to via the King room. Vox is seen running through the doors to the giant area. That's pretty clear-cut.

If it is too difficult to code that then the other solution, as seen with Nagafen, would be to force Vox to be tethered. This was eventually done on live, anyway, and like other things on this server are some "classic" elements that have been altered due to preference of easier coding.

[Gwence]

Im not argueing for or against a tether really, but their was no tether on live classic, and this is suppose to emulate classive live so.. yea.

the screenshots just showed she would come out of the lair, because people were saying she shouldnt be able to fit through a hall or a little rock crevice.

we do get giant adds on the pull and they either get splitted off or we kill them with vox lol, you all act like this is some kind of exploit when realistically we're just pulling the entire lair and dealing with it at the zone in or some other arbitrary location that isnt the actual lair.

[Aadill]

this is suppose to emulate classive live so.. lol, you all act like this is some kind of exploit

The pathing is wrong.

[azeth]

we do get giant adds on the pull and they either get splitted off or we kill them with vox lol

you get 2 ice giants, 1 magi, and 1 priest, all of which are circling Vox's lair. What you do not get are the 2 Icy terrors, spider, and 4 giants Vox would/should aggro when she paths appropriately through the only entrance.

[Ponden]

We get all the trash with Vox. We just have mage/necro pets and offtanks kill it all while Vox tries to kill our MA. Lets be real, these mobs are easy.

[Loke]

1) many mobs can path many different ways. For example, I can pull Magi Rokyl through the lava tunnel OR I can pull him through the four spawn room. Just because someone posts picture of a mob pathing one way, does not mean it cannot path another.

2) regardless of pathing, the encounter is still trivial to just about every guild that engages Vox, and even with her pathing through the giant tunnel, getting her to the zone-line either solo, or with an add or two will not be a difficult task.

Changing where she paths won't change the ability to pull her to zone or king room - tethering will. Basically what we need to ask ourselves are the following questions:

-Do we want it to be how classic was, or how we feel the developers intended it? Because those two things are often drastically different.

-After deciding how we want it to be, we need to decide if we are willing to make changes based on people's memories or if we need to supply hard evidence. I seem to remember A LOT of people in a certain guild getting angry about a mob in perma getting a pathing change based on memory, and now many of those same people are asking for a drastically larger change based on evidence that is equally inconclusive. (note: just because she can path one way, does not mean she cannot path the other, and thus, isn't really conclusive evidence).

Like I said, short of tethering her, it won't really change anything so I really couldn't care less - I just find it interesting the arguments being made in this thread when compared to situations in the past.

[Loke]

The pathing is wrong.

Prove it. Read my previous post before you cite Gwences screen shots as evidence.

[azeth]

-After deciding how we want it to be, we need to decide if we are willing to make changes based on people's memories or if we need to supply hard evidence. I seem to remember A LOT of people in a certain guild getting angry about a mob in perma getting a pathing change based on memory, and now many of those same people are asking for a drastically larger change based on evidence that is equally inconclusive.

true, but rogean admitted it's a bug within wall mechanics (specifically collision #s).

edit: also lol at expected tags i.e da faggots/ib cumg's

[Loke]

:\ suddenly we're in R&F

Best to just ignore it and stay on topic. Would imagine the forum mods will handle people flaming outside R&F shortly :)

[Salty]

Loke will crap on your face.

[Sidious]

true, but rogean admitted it's a bug within wall mechanics (specifically collision #s).

edit: also lol at expected tags i.e da faggots/ib cumg's

The real effort here should be put into collision work, which is making impacts on other zones.

Going through a wall, through the rock, out the back door, who cares, the point is Vox could be pulled out of the lair for a significant portion of time on live. The reason you see so many screenshots of vox going towards diplomat are probably because that was typically the way people would run after getting agro.

Further to the levitate business, on live that would have been considered creative use of game mechanics, here one group calls it cheating, another doesn't. While the giants did not see invis, it is actually faster to run through the regular way instead of even using the levitate, so all the bashing based on that is completely baseless to begin with.

Where or how others kill their mobs is absolutely meaningless to me, why there is such a focus on how IB does this spawn in particular is amusing.

[Aadill]

The real effort here should be put into collision work

Again, this was the point of this bug report. If collision is too difficult a task then the next logical solution would be to force a set path for Vox to follow that emulates classic EQ. Failing that, a permanent tether as seen later on in EQLive would also be appropriate, seeing as how other fixes have been adjusted to emulate what appears on live to provide some level of consistency with classic EQ.

The fact that this keeps turning into an RnF thread suggests that the point of this post has been lost. There is more evidence suggesting that Vox should be heading in one direction much more than another, and another conclusion has been made that even suggests the possibility of limiting the encounter to one area of the zone. Gwence provided screenshots that indicates Vox moving towards the ice giants and through the large double doors. This is not how Vox currently paths when pulled out of the lair, and considering the entire point of this server is to emulate classic screenshots that provide evidence to the contrary of the currently incomplete mechanics should be taken into account and be used as large stepping stone in terms of progressing towards a more classic goal.

The complaint that questions the validity of this bug report and as to why it wasn't reported 13 months ago seems more vested on the entity capable of killing Vox 13 months ago. When the bug was seen, it was reported. That is the point of a bug report and its consequent fixes.

[Rhalous]

It's pretty easy to wait until someone posts a lengthy reply with documented resources, ignore everything that goes against your argument, and then highlight the details that may work for you. I reread this thread and have not seen one single documented resource that suggests Vox could not be pulled through the lev cubby on live. If you want to get something changed, be proactive. Do the work and post your findings.

There is more evidence suggesting that Vox should be heading in one direction much more than another, and another conclusion has been made that even suggests the possibility of limiting the encounter to one area of the zone.

Of course there is more evidence that Vox should be pulled through the giants; it's what most people would choose to do because it's an obvious path and most people are creatures of habit. The submission of evidence that she pathed through the long way on live does not prove that she couldn't be pulled through the cubby, though.


Gwence provided screenshots that indicates Vox moving towards the ice giants and through the large double doors. This is not how Vox currently paths when pulled out of the lair. . .

On this server, I've seen Vox trained out of her lair and through the ice giant tunnels and into the king room. She was trained that way because the players that had aggro ran through the ice giant tunnels to get out of her lair. You must have meant that she currently does not path that direction if she is pulled through the lev cubby. That is the only way your statement can be true.

The strongest arguement that I've seen here against her going through the cubby is the idea that the original developers probably didn't intend on raids bypassing giants, but that doesn't hold water either. There are plenty of shortcuts in this game. I can bypass two named fire giants and a number of normal fire giants during the Nagafen encounter. Is that considered an exploit? I've never heard anyone suggest that it is.

I personally don't care if Vox is tethered or not, though. I can think of a number of interesting ways to take on the encounter if she was tethered, and I can only imagine the posts and accusations that would follow another outside the box strategy.

[Taluvill]

The submission of evidence that she pathed through the long way on live does not prove that she couldn't be pulled through the cubby, though.



If you using this as a claim to back you up, then there are a lot of things on this server that could be one way or the other. I would argue that probably 60% of this server is from memory with little or no evidence to back it up, but it's in there because it is classic.



On this server, I've seen Vox trained out of her lair and through the ice giant tunnels and into the king room. She was trained that way because the players that had aggro ran through the ice giant tunnels to get out of her lair. You must have meant that she currently does not path that direction if she is pulled through the lev cubby. That is the only way your statement can be true.


This is what is currently happening, yes.



I personally don't care if Vox is tethered or not, though. I can think of a number of interesting ways to take on the encounter if she was tethered, and I can only imagine the posts and accusations that would follow another outside the box strategy.

I'm under the same sentiment about the tethering. I could care less whether she is tethered or not, but it's not that I am arguing against your out of the box strategy, but as Trimm pointed out, your "out of the box strategy" is being used to bypass multiple mobs. It is not to say that you as a guild, IB, or any other guild could not take vox with those mobs.

The argument is for the fact that it wouldn't be as easy. Your numbers on vox would not be as high to push her to interrupt her CH's, and with a lower amount of players, guild X may not be able to take vox as immediately as you can pulling her through the cubby. Different strategies, such as training the giants away or actually clearing towards her lair prior to her pull could/would be needed depending on the amount of pet classes/cc available at the raid.

The point comes down to, as Aadill pointed out, fixing things so that the server reacts much more classically, and to make viable strats classic. Until we see a screen shot vying for the pull-ability of vox through the wall/cubby, i'd like to think that Gwence's screen shots more than prove the point at the moment that vox should be pathed through the double doors, aggroing more mobs than pulling her through the cubby does.

That being said, this post has turned into a flame war and it wasn't my intention. I just want this fixed to be classic or fixed with a workaround as close to classicness as possible. I would ask that you don't post here unless your intention is to get this bug fixed in the fastest, most efficient and working manner possible. We have not seen evidence to point out that she was pullable through the cubby, whereas gwence posted evidence for the exact thing that I have been fighting for.

[Loke]

Taluvill, I just got home and am admittedly mildly intoxicated. However, I just wanted to reply quickly and state that my posts were not intended as flames - simply as counter-arguments to claims I felt were not entirely justified. If any of my posts came off as flames I apologize - I only want to ensure that changes aren't made without considering all variables.

[Taluvill]

Nah dude, its not you. Its erryone.

My point is lets just fix this shit and not bitch about it and moan about what guild said what, which is what seems to happen a lot around here.

[Rhalous]

Taluvill, this is not about what guild said what. It may appear that way, but I can see through factions and get to the root of what someone is saying. It's obvious that you and others that share your point of view are not willing to entertain the idea that this bug report is invalid, which is fine. I am not going to continue to debate this topic unless server management wants to join in our dialogue. As players, we do not make ultimate decisions when it comes to the development of this server. Rogean and Co. are more than capable of handling issues such as this, and their decisions are the ones we, as players, will all have to accept.

[Taluvill]

Agreed. The point I was making as of late is that through Gwence's screen shots, it clearly shows vox coming through the door. I have yet to see a screen shot of vox coming through the cubby, and rogean has agreed with our point, although he said collisions are off is the problem with her pathing.

I don't care about a guild pulling vox to the king room, I just want her pathing to be correct is all.