Recent Clarification

[Daldaen]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2238626&postcount=3

I asked about this when the rules were implemented 7 months ago and this was the original clarification you provided:

My question:

If a guild fails to kill the mob within 60 minutes, is the mob then FFA and the zone specific rules don't apply anymore? Or does the next FTEer get FTE and then they have a 60 minutes.

The response:

4) the guild has 60 min to engage the raid target. if they wipe, or exceed the 60 min limit on engaging, the raid target then becomes FFA and these footrace rules do not apply.

Which I think is a contradiction of your recent clarification:

11/17/2016 updated to clarify something that I assumed was common sense:

And if your guild wipes, the target is considered open (not engaged) and can be FTE'd by anyone, and then that guild/raid will have an hour to make an attempt at killing the mob.

Now, if you want to make that change, that's your prerogative. But I think the original way of handling it was more clean. Once a guild fails to kill a target for 60 minutes or wipes, it's a lot more reasonable to just let the mob become FFA. There is no concern to starting on the start line exactly at 60 minutes or anything like that.

What's going to happen is guilds will be putting monks in other guilds raids and when they wipe the subsequent FTE spam of the dragon at LTK or Entrance as its killing the original guild's raid force will then count as your guilds 60 minute lock in. Seems like it's just going to encourage sitting in a guilds raid force hoping to get that free lock in. Also it seems impossible for a guild to get another attempt at the dragon should they die, since I suspect when a dragon is wiping you out any FTE that fires off on your guild doesn't count to lock you in, but does count for another guild should they attain FTE this way?

Just my 2 cents from a dirty casual.

[Breaken]

Daldaen beat me to posting, so:

4) the guild has 60 min to engage the raid target. if they wipe, or exceed the 60 min limit on engaging, the raid target then becomes FFA and these footrace rules do not apply.

[Fri Oct 07 15:15:44 2016] Braknar shouts, ‘So we’re clear. Lady Nev should be considered FFA at this time. The FTE by Rustle and pull to ent wiped. Any incidental FTE after that should be considered invalid. Thanks.’

Using the first quote, it is obvious that "FFA" means that the mob is FFA for FTE'ing. What isn't clear is what rules do not apply.

1) At what point can a mob be locked after a wipe? Braknar states that incidental FTEs do not count. Does the mob need to reset? If it doesn't need to reset, which FTE of the 20 going off during a wipe is the new one? Can the guild that is wiping really claim a new FTE while wiping?

Our assumption is that the mob cannot be re locked while still in a raid's camp. It must leave the camp to be no longer considered "incidental". As for how far out of camp it must be, that is a mystery.

2) It was always understood that after a wipe, the guild which wipes is still locked on the mob for the remainder of the hour, or until it dies. With allowing other guilds to lock into the mob after you wipe, you are signing away the wiping guild's rights. If Guild A wipes on a mob, and Guild B locks the mob, Guild B can hold the mob for an hour, keeping Guild A locked from other mobs.

Our assumption is that the wiping guild is no longer locked into the mob, since it is owned by another. Diving deeper, *my* assumption is that the wiping guild is only unlocked once the mob is locked by another. A wipe does not negate your lock, but once the mob is owned by another, it cannot be owned by two guilds.

The assumptions made above are how Awakened interprets these scenarios. If these are incorrect, I would be happy to hear what the intent is from Sirken.

[Sirken]

ok first, I have no idea what was going on during the encounter from Oct 7 that you posted regarding Lady Nev. but I'm going to assume this was a situation where a raid party pulled Lady Nev to entrance (where there were other guilds), then wiped to lady Nev, and essentially trained everyone else at the ent.

that being said, none of you are actually retarded (at least I don't think). And while I know you are looking for something clean cut & black and white, you're just not going to get that. most raid things are situational, and are going to continue to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

if guildA FTEs and engages Lady Nev, but she wipes guildA at the entrance and the only reason guildB got FTE is because guildA wiped and guildB got trained by guildA's Lady Nev at entrance, in what universe can any of you realistically argue that guildB should be held to that FTE? whereas, if guildA is going after Lady Nev, wipes, then guildB charges in to snipe/kill Lady Nev, I think it's pretty clear that guildB should 100% be held accountable for that engage.

the bigger issue (as far as ToV goes) is that guilds seem hell bent on setting up camp on top of each other, as well as pulling targets to the zone in.

and to address the second point by Breaken, there is absolutely no possible situation where two guilds will have FTE on the same target at the same time, rendering it impossible for guildB to block guildA from anything other than the one single mob that guildB has FTE on.

that said, if a guild is going around trying to exploit the FTE mechanics, or game the system, i'm just going to give them 10 days off to think about their actions.

and then lastly, staff members aren't going to be perfect 100% of the time either. if you think a staff member is making a mistake in regards to a raid call, or telling you to do something that contradicts with something I've said or posted, then bring it to my attention.

[Daldaen]

I don't expect perfection or hell I don't even expect you to remember half of the rulings you make, since you do have to deal with so much petty bullshit on this server, and I'm sorry for that if I've caused any.

I'd like to think this thread was the way to bring it to your attention which it did.

The example you give, a guild cannot be held to a lock in on a target if they wipe on top of you certainly makes sense. But the problem is, many guilds will find that to not be to their detriment, but to their benefit. They will WANT that FTE after another guild wipes. Not because they've got a full raid force ready to snipe and engage Lady Nev right there at the entrance but because now due to this clarification, they will then have 60 minutes to log in and mobilize and then kill the dragon.

Previously, when we were operating under the first clarification in my original thread I made with questions when these rules were new, exactly what you described is how it worked out when we thought it was FFA. Wiping and Guild B getting an FTE didn't mean anything, it wasn't a lock it just happened like a Kunark FTE. Whereas if you were ready to snipe it and you got FTE your prepared raid force could kill the mob.

All the clarification does in my mind is make sure that on every dragon now, guilds will have a monk or hell any class sitting in your camp hoping you wipe. When you wipe they'll just pray they get proximity aggro first and claim that FTE locks them in, and then Batphone their guild.

-------

The reason they're on top of each other is there are currently only 2 safe locations to set up in ToV. What needs to happen (IMO) is remove the proximity camping rule in ToV. Because of the racing rules, being camped near a target provides absolutely zero benefit. You still have to race from the line and acquire FTE. You also have an hour to kill your target, so being camped near it doesn't really help you if you're going to do pulls that avoid trash anyways.

So guilds should be allowed to camp their raid force near Eashen or Aaryonar hallway to then pull Dragons there. Furthermore if you could convince Nilbog to remove the non-classic Flurry drakes in the NToV hallways, guilds could form up in the Triplets and Doubles hallways and camp out there. Preventing a lot of the cross zone pulling that has caused people a lot of ire. This would open up several superior camps for your raids to set up at and allow guilds to spread out much more, and be able to clear to Dragons more feasibly if that floats their boat. Hell if these non classic drakes could get removed you could easily enforce Dragons may not leave their wing and you might see some guilds do some more classic crawls as a result and absolutely zero wipe outs of guilds at entrance. (Wishful thinking I suppose)