Rogue Skill Hide/Sneak

[braveheart]

I believe Hide and Sneak once attained level 100 would both have 100% success rate. My Hide and Sneak are now both 105 and fail about 40% of the time and evading in combat also fails about 90% of the time. This renders the evade skill nearly useless but I didn't truly remember how evade worked until around 2003. All i want is sneak and hide to work when i click on them, according to my skill list it says sneak and hide (105) mastered. A master does not fail.

-Braveheart Williamwallace

[Otto]

Don't know about the success rate...

But more rogue bugs: you shouldn't be able to pickpocket while sitting down. You should be able to stay hide/sneak while pickpocketing on a success. You should also be able to stay sneaking while using throwing weapons.

[mlan2]

i don't know if hide sneak has been fixed to not fail around 100 as mine is only 80 and constantly fails. i know evade is far less useful than it was in classic. it succeeded a lot more and when it did it cleared all agro. i think it left you on the hate list but you started over again with 0 agro. it wasn't until kunark or velious that it was changed to lower agro rather than clear it. i use to duo stonespider with a cleric friend during kunark and would get bored so i would evade so he would get agro. it didn't matter if he had been sitting there doing nothing the whole time or not, it would go beat on him and it took me a while to get agro back. at this point i don't even use evade anymore. it has never caused me to lose agro when i have been getting beat on. it seems like i pull less agro completely ignoring its usage.

[Allizia]

You should be able to stay hide/sneak while pickpocketing on a success.

Agree, I got owned pretty hardcore by this one

[Hasbinbad]

You should be able to stay hide/sneak while pickpocketing on a success. You should also be able to stay sneaking while using throwing weapons.
Bump on this.

Pickpocketing while in a dungeon without getting caught was definitely a good time I miss. Much more important however is the rogue's lost ability to sneak pull. Rogues not being able to sneak pull is most heinous.

If these two seemingly related problems are solvable at all, some priority would be much appreciated.

[Schortt]

Much more important however is the rogue's lost ability to sneak pull. Rogues not being able to sneak pull is most heinous.

This is still broken. I've been playing around on my rogue in Misty Thicket trying to split goblin and orc camps and have concluded there are two problems:

1. As mentioned, there is something amiss with sneak. When sneak pulling stuff on classic live, all you needed to do is stand out of LOS of anything that would normally social aggro, and as long as it wasn't a linked spawn, you could pick off whatever you wanted because other mobs wouldn't "see" you. This doesn't work on p1999 with any sort of consistency. Sneak tends to break before the pulled mob gets clear which means the other mobs "see" you and you end up with the whole lot.

2. There is no delay in firing a ranged weapon and getting aggro/entering combat. In classic live one used to be able to fire while sneaking and pop hide immediately after the shot went off - before it would hit and aggro the mob. This allowed you to enter full sneak/hide mode before catching aggro and split tons of stuff without needing FD or harmony/lull, even when mobs weren't facing in convenient directions. On p1999, no matter how fast you hide after firing you just end up with an evade message, which means that social aggro has already happened and no split will occur.

Rogues not being able to sneak/hide pull really cuts into their utility (not to mention my desire to play one). There were many camps that rogues could pull faster and more safely than anyone else because they didn't have to floor hump FD or spam lull (or worry about lull resists/mobs out of LOS). Being relegated to marginal melee DPS and CR bitch is pretty lame. If pickpocket is also broken due to sneak bugs that's not the end of the world, but it is unfortunate.

Would love to see this get some attention.

[Goobles]

I believe Hide and Sneak once attained level 100 would both have 100% success rate. My Hide and Sneak are now both 105 and fail about 40% of the time and evading in combat also fails about 90% of the time. This renders the evade skill nearly useless but I didn't truly remember how evade worked until around 2003. All i want is sneak and hide to work when i click on them, according to my skill list it says sneak and hide (105) mastered. A master does not fail.

-Braveheart Williamwallace

I played two rogues on Live, and evade never worked 100% unless I used the escape AA. It did work a lot better than what I've heard due to the reports, from what I can remember though. I played a Rogues from Kunark up until GoD, so I remember a fair share about them. At max skill level, evade worked around 85% of the time, whereas lower - I had some difficulties.

If I recall correctly on the amount I could evade at max skill level (200), and your current skill level being 40%, I can only conclude that this is working properly and you will find more success once you skill up your hide skill.

[Murr]

Just keeping this going.. the Pickpocket breaking Hide/Stealth is frustrating esp. with stuff like Burning Rapier quest in where you can PP some of the stuff instead of having to kill everything.

[Haynar]

Does pickpocket always break hide/sneak? Just wondering how it is currently functioning, as i have not used the skill.

Haynar

[Stonewall]

Currently any attempt to pickpocket while hide/sneaked will break the stealth provided and make you visible. This should not be the case.

[Haynar]

Ok, thanks. I will look into that. I looked before, and didnt find anything obvious. Maybe its not obvious.

Haynar

[Haynar]

The breaking of sneak and hide on pickpocket (success or failure) is being initiated by the client. At this point, there is no way to fix this. There could be some sort of setting, or flag with the mob, or something that allows it to not break. But we do not currently know what this is. This may be something that we can never figure out.

Haynar

[Heebee]

My wife tried this last night and it definitely makes sneak fail when pickpocketing.

[Dr.Spike]

The breaking of sneak and hide on pickpocket (success or failure) is being initiated by the client. At this point, there is no way to fix this. There could be some sort of setting, or flag with the mob, or something that allows it to not break. But we do not currently know what this is. This may be something that we can never figure out.

Haynar

any news on this? i know when i played some on VZ/TZ you could pickpocket and stay hide/sneak on success, i know this becaus alot of rogues where in fear and pickpocket gems of mobs in there.
Got any ide how they manage to get it to work for them on the server?

[Haynar]

any news on this? i know when i played some on VZ/TZ you could pickpocket and stay hide/sneak on success, i know this becaus alot of rogues where in fear and pickpocket gems of mobs in there.
Got any ide how they manage to get it to work for them on the server?
That gives me some ideas of other things to check.

Thanks.

Haynar

[Tryfaen]

we were talking about it in IRC the other day and it was mentioned that if you are sneaking but not hidden sneak will not break on pickpocket. Might not be useful but then again it might help find the solution.

[Dr.Spike]

i notice today when i pickpocket sometimes, the hide and sneak button will pop up and it seems like i drop hide and sneak, but as long as i dont move i will still be hide/sneak.
And if i click on hide and sneak the invis will drop and mobs start hitting on me

[Dr.Spike]

BUMP

[Haynar]

Sneak/Hide - Get behind mob - drop hide - pickpocket - re-hide . Good to go. You cannot pick while hidden, or the client initiates dropping hide. If you pick while only sneaking, it works.

The sneak/hide failure rates are messed up. They fail too much at higher levels from what I saw, but I dont know what appropriate failure rates are.

Haynar

[Hasbinbad]

Sneak/Hide - Get behind mob - drop hide - pickpocket - re-hide . Good to go. You cannot pick while hidden, or the client initiates dropping hide. If you pick while only sneaking, it works.

The sneak/hide failure rates are messed up. They fail too much at higher levels from what I saw, but I dont know what appropriate failure rates are.

Haynar
Much more important however is the rogue's lost ability to sneak pull. Rogues not being able to sneak pull is most heinous.
Pleeeeeeeeeeaaaase!!

[ryuut1]

not having to do anything w/ pick pocket:

sometimes i'll be invis when i'm zoomed out, sneak/hide are clicked down AND had success messages, and a mob who should be indifferent at that point sees me, and i'm no longer hidden to other players as well.

any ideas?

[PearlJammzz]

not having to do anything w/ pick pocket:

sometimes i'll be invis when i'm zoomed out, sneak/hide are clicked down AND had success messages, and a mob who should be indifferent at that point sees me, and i'm no longer hidden to other players as well.

any ideas?

Happened to me the other day in MM. You have to con a mob when you go into hide/sneak to make sure it worked. It happened to me the first time I hid/sneaked in the zone. Didn't rlly seem to happen after that although I only used it 1 or 2 times.

[ryuut1]

right, the thing that happens to me is say on a cr in fear:

mob type x is indifferent when i'm hidden/sneaking
i pass 9 of mob type x
number 10 of mob type x is KOS

boom, dead.

[PearlJammzz]

right, the thing that happens to me is say on a cr in fear:

mob type x is indifferent when i'm hidden/sneaking
i pass 9 of mob type x
number 10 of mob type x is KOS

boom, dead.

Ya it seems to be switched off for no reason sometimes. I can't get it to reproduce consistently though. Once I do I'll post it.

Also a mob MAY be incorrectly setup to see through sneak. Def a possibility.

[PearlJammzz]

Ok, I did find a way to reproduce it. I am not sure if this is the only time it happens though.

When in hide/sneak you can loot a corpse, and still stay in hide/sneak...kind of. To you, you see your character as still invis. The buttons are still pressed down, and you get no appear message. However other PCs, and NPCs can see you perfectly. I zoomed out into 3rd person, and I still couldn't see myself, but everyone else (PC, and NPC) could see me just fine.

[ryuut1]

correct, and i think i found another answer to the mystery, it would seem if you right click a corpse that is out of looting distance it displays the too far away message but you will come out of hide/sneak...to everyone but yourself.

which is why i believe this happens to me so often during CR's

[Uaellaen]

if you right click a corpse that is out of looting distance it displays the too far away message but you will come out of hide/sneak...to everyone but yourself.


i was actualy playing a rogue couple days ago in fear ... and this same thing happened to me like 3 times ... accidently clicked a corpse on the other end of the screen (way too far away) got the too far away message, and of course then charged by denizens of fear, eating my heart and soul in a second or two ... i was still invis on my screen, i had the () arround my name until the first hit ...

[Haynar]

Added rogues sneak/hide breaking, when clicking corpses out of range, to our bug list. One more thing to fix.

Thanks

Haynar

[Brund the Decrepit]

Added rogues sneak/hide breaking, when clicking corpses out of range, to our bug list. One more thing to fix.

Thanks

Haynar


w00t!

[ryuut1]

Thanks haynar!

I have another question:

A mob who was once charmed always sees me after it is no longer charmed. Allow me to demonstrate.

I and hidden/sneaking into a room. Valenik has mob X charmed, charm breaks, mob X kills Valenik. Mob X, who I had 0 aggro with, sees me, and kills me.

That a bug or is that the way the code actually went?

[ryuut1]

also!

when sneaking, and not hidden, casters are not able to buff / target you as if you are hidden

[Kirdan]

I had an issue with sneak/hide on my rogue today in UGuk. I received a rez at warden and used sneak/hide successfully there before making my way through scryer and stopping to afk at spiders. A monk pulled a couple frogs by me in spiders and when he used fd they started attacking me. Hide was unbroken until the first frog swing on me. The monk said he could also see me, so apparently hide was not working despite showing a success message and allowing me to move untouched through a good chunk of the zone. I double checked my combat log and the only thing that changed between my successful sneak/hide and the frog hitting me was the rez effects wearing off. Is it possible that rez effects wearing off removes hide?

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Monk sneak is alot weaker too.... I know it caps at 100 now, it capped at 155 on live for sure early eq. Everyone thought I was high, but there weren't many monks left who capped it early on. Sneak capped at 155 for a while.

Either way, it is unreliable now, where before it was 100pct locked.

[ryuut1]

meh, for those of you out there:

if sneak and hide, but sneak fails, you need to re-hide. it will show you invis for all intents and purposes on your screen, but everything can see you.

So always sneak until it succeeds, then hide.

[Kvappe]

There is still problems with sneak/hide, not sure if its still being looked into or it cant be fixed?

And the pickpocketing is allso broken, i remembering PPing Dragons in Velius for spells at level 60, was a good way to make money, but allso a fast way to die if you didnt know where to run when and add saw you :)

Also remembering in Sebelis that no monsters ever yelled Thief, however all monsters do now it seems, not sure if that was because of the higher skill level with levels 51-60 , can remember them yelling in planes, but not in Lguk-SolB like the do now.

Shadze.

[Tiggles]

Bump

Hide skill still not 100% with max skill

kills me constantly

[defeater]

Bump for dev attention!

[Attos]

I've been having hide randomly fail after a successful sneak hide a lot lately. Not sure what triggers it but it's been happening in Old Seb and I have never noticed it happen to me before anywhere else *shrug*

Would be cool if this stopped killing me...

[Attos]

Still having this issue in sebilis. Successfully sneak/hide and then the sneak/hide simply breaks. Sometimes I'm dealing with a corpse, sometimes I'm just walking. Sometimes I jumped recently. Certainly makes Seb seem a lot more dangerous but it's started to kill me 2-5 times a day which is a little absurd. Never had an issue before this but it's not cool at all.

[Tiggles]

Still having this issue in sebilis. Successfully sneak/hide and then the sneak/hide simply breaks. Sometimes I'm dealing with a corpse, sometimes I'm just walking. Sometimes I jumped recently. Certainly makes Seb seem a lot more dangerous but it's started to kill me 2-5 times a day which is a little absurd. Never had an issue before this but it's not cool at all.


I once sit afk in chef surrounded by mobs for almost 38 hours and no breaks but at least once a day when moving my hide breaks randomly. I con mobs from the front they con indiff then will attack.


Also pickpocket shouldn't break hide/sneak unless a critical fail.


Throwing should not break sneak this nerfs our ability to pull.

[dojo420]

had this happen to me twice now:

- first time was when helping a group with cr in disco when a bok shm decided to attack me all of a sudden while dragging 2 corpses back up (passed him several times before with no problem).

- second time was when opening door for someone at crypt: I ran out to necrosis scarab area when the person in question ran past me and died at door. I opened the door and one of the trained mobs (krup knight) starts attacking me after i moved through. curious enough the others didnt decide to join in but ran back to their spawns even though well within aggro range.

From what I can tell I never got hit by an AE, tried to initiate a trade or right clicked random corpses which could have cancelled stealth. not sure what is happening there.

[Rhambuk]

Also pickpocket shouldn't break hide/sneak unless a critical fail.


PP always broke hide/sneak. You just drop hide and remain in sneak and your fine

[Dazen]

pickpocket didn't always break sneak/hide I know this for a fact, I just cant remember if it was an AA that did this or when you got your hide/sneak skill up to a certain lvl. I clearly remember the days of farming Gem's in SEB with PP when Looking for a group there.

[Rhambuk]

I've never been able to PP or trade or loot etc while sneak/hide it always breaks.

If you drop hide and keep sneak on you can do a lot but they should both depop if you try to do anything while doing both.

[Sobr]

Having major probs in seb/hs specifically.

Doing a CR, pass a bunch of mobs, then it just drops. Things that arent supposed to see through sneak attack me. In my log, it goes from quiet as a cat, to X mob attacks you. Mobs that never see sneak, that I might have just passed 4-5 times in the same CR, randomly attack me.

I wont list the mobs because its basically any mob. juggs wizards shamans skeletons goo doesnt matter. Having things con indiff and attack me when i walk past them too, so I dont know if its an issue with sneak just dropping randomly or if mobs just see me randomly.

Broken either way though imo

[jubbymcj]

Experienced the same indifferent cons to me and randomly being attacked. Guildy was with me saw me start getting attacked and still had the () around my name. Was a bizarre day today, glad someone else though has experienced this also. Thought I was missing something.

[Lorastine]

I haven't read the whole entire thread, but i'd like to add some experiences with hide/sneak randomly being broken.

This mostly happens in Old Sebilis. Nothing to my knowledge should see through hide/sneak there. At first i'd just be stealthing through, randomly get nuked and die. Which I found odd. Then I started conning mobs when I went past them just to make sure everything was indifferent. Again, hit by something and popped out of hide/sneak and killed. This has happened twice. If everything around me is conning indifferent, why are they breaking my hide/sneak?

This is really annoying, because for the most part i'm hide/sneaking through to drag someone's corpse and I end up being one myself. =[

[Gartaka832]

Thanks a lot

[Hakurou]

I just dug through an old log file from the time I started a rogue on live (June 13th 2001), I had no instance of *You are as quiet as herd of running elephants.* past sneak skill 98 and no instance of *You failed to hide yourself.* past hide skill 92, I know both skills should always work at master level (skill 100) yet they still fail on P99 at skill 110. That could also explain why racial hide skills like my dark elves can fail up to 6 times in a row, which is way too much.

I'll be glad to provide parts of the log file to a Dev if I can cut out private chat from it (it's 38 MB after all so even then it'll be a rather big upload)

[Ligtorn]

as far as i can tell Evade does not work at all theres no message about momentarily stepping out of combat and theres zero agro loss when hiding.