PDA

View Full Version : Not a whine but can we please fix melee?


Kantan
10-28-2009, 09:08 PM
Sorry but there is no way a monk with full cured silk and a scepter of Rhaotep should get owned by a light blue scarab. At this point I should be able to solo low DBs with 50% health.

Aeolwind
10-28-2009, 09:23 PM
This is base emu code that we're using, so unless something is off in the rules values, this is fairly much emu wide.

girth
10-28-2009, 09:33 PM
Thank you for the comment. I am now quitting my monk after hearing that though, as they are worthless.

Dreadder
10-28-2009, 09:54 PM
Thank you for the comment. I am now quitting my monk after hearing that though, as they are worthless.

I've been told monks with worthless on live pre Kunark.

Villert
10-28-2009, 10:05 PM
I've been told monks with worthless on live pre Kunark.

If you're serious - that's such a joke - lol. Monks were quite good in classic pre kunark. Mages, actually, were rather shunned in groups - seem unbelievable? It's not.

Monk Fists are like 14/30 at level 50, making them the best dual wieldable weapons in the game, minus the fanged skull stilleto, which I believe only dropped from GM events.

Monks useless on this server? So far, unfortunately, yes. On live pre kunark? Heavens no.

Swank
10-28-2009, 10:41 PM
There has to be something different here than other emus, cause in the numerous servers I've frequented previously, I've never received the pounding I do here. Blue cons hit over 90% of the time and do max damage at least half the time.

After a week of going nowhere in game, I'm going to take a break from 1999 but keep my eyes on the board to see if a solution can be reached.

Good Luck my melee brothers and sisters :)

Shin Noir
10-28-2009, 11:06 PM
This is base emu code that we're using, so unless something is off in the rules values, this is fairly much emu wide.

Well this is better than your old "This is EQEMU's fault. Not ours". :)

I'm still waiting for a message from Nilbog or you or whomever, would love to go through and see what changes were done so we can identify these sort of complaints easier... I hear Rogean is on, and another dev, but I am unsure they have the time to do these sort of things... Once isolated that it isn't due to a value change on P1999, there can perhaps be solutions to ensure the formula curves properly for this server.

Thus far I think the typical answer to broken things is: "The DB editors (not developers) of P1999 accidentally changed a value and screwed it up, but we aren't even aware of what happened, nor do we know how to solve it exactly." But it's not really your fault, instead it's the fact that there isn't a dev going through to ensure everything is nice and balanced and things being tweaked with no horrific side effects.

Villert
10-28-2009, 11:09 PM
Well this is better than your old "This is EQEMU's fault. Not ours". :)

I'm still waiting for a message from Nilbog or you or whomever, would love to go through and see what changes were done so we can identify these sort of complaints easier... I hear Rogean is on, and another dev, but I am unsure they have the time to do these sort of things... Once isolated that it isn't due to a value change on PEQ, there can perhaps be solutions to ensure the formula curves properly.

Shin our saviour! It's because of you our hit rate was fixed!

Please let Shin assist you guys. For the sake of all melee, please!

Shin Noir
10-28-2009, 11:12 PM
aww, you quoted me. Now Rogean is going to slit my throat for calling it "PEQ". :D

Haynar
10-28-2009, 11:17 PM
Just some sort of comment that it is being worked on would help.

All we seem to hear is another version of "Working as intended".

It really is starting to feel like classic now.

Jify
10-28-2009, 11:42 PM
I have to admit, it seems weird. I thought it might have been all smoke and mirrors as I leveled my ranger up. Levels 1-7 I was able to take even cons with ease. Now, blues, I need full HP, full mana, and still may have to run. (Did I mention I'm twinked with nearly 300AC and a PGT?)

I can't imagine what the higher lvl melee are going through! Sorry guys 8(

Chewybunny
10-29-2009, 12:28 AM
damage to hit is off, the percentage is too low. My monk misses 60% of the time, and the few hits they do make hit for heavy damage.

Deemo
10-29-2009, 04:29 AM
My war is pretty ok on hits on full HP, but once he gets lower and goes beserk is few hits then iam gone. Iam lucky to have good HP regen (troll) saved my hide few times. Can have to do with AGI?

Kantan
10-29-2009, 05:43 AM
I am just glad I am not the only one that is super frustrated trying to play a monk. Jiffy that's nuts about your Ranger.

I leveled a ranger to 55 on live mostly soloing.

blanks77
10-29-2009, 08:29 AM
After recently playing on a different classic type server compared to this one. The player melee seem pretty close, a bit off still. But the NPC hit rates were totally different. Here the mobs barely miss and hits for almost max every time. On other servers, their hit rate is much lower. Thats why we can't solo anything with melee. The mobs hit rates are to high here.

Jify
10-29-2009, 09:12 AM
My war is pretty ok on hits on full HP, but once he gets lower and goes beserk is few hits then iam gone. Iam lucky to have good HP regen (troll) saved my hide few times. Can have to do with AGI?

You may be on to something? I was overweight 92/90 at the time when I was having problems. My AGI was still 103 or something high like that. But I was suffering big time from hits.

Soon as I get low on HP, it's a guaranteed death!

I'm now 89/90, and killing blues in CB taking about 30% damage per mob. I'll see if I can gain so weight tonight and try it again.

Indio
10-29-2009, 09:56 AM
Tiger strike dmg not showing in text makes it even worse too. I think mend might be a little messed up as well. Lot of times I get no message what so ever.
I guess after about 10 years and games like wow we've forgotten how bad melees were. Monks imo were just ho-hum until Kunark came out. I remember getting excited for the promise of monk friendly blunt weapons with Kunark.

I will stick it out. I don't like to solo in p1999 anyway.

JayDee
10-29-2009, 09:58 AM
There has to be something different here than other emus, cause in the numerous servers I've frequented previously, I've never received the pounding I do here. Blue cons hit over 90% of the time and do max damage at least half the time.

After a week of going nowhere in game, I'm going to take a break from 1999 but keep my eyes on the board to see if a solution can be reached.


.....................................

Jero
10-29-2009, 10:30 AM
Agreed 100%

Think I am going to take a break as well. You have NO idea how difficult it is to tank atm.

I get maxed on by greens all the time as a warrior with full bronze, 5ac55hp rings, etc etc etc etc.

Might as well remove tank classes and just have mage pet as MT. Their pets take a beating just as well and they regen insanely fast unlike players.

5ac 55hp rings ? didnt those not come out till velious ?

quenyar
10-29-2009, 10:41 AM
5ac 55hp rings ? didnt those not come out till velious ?

Nope, those are platinum and most def. classic... Velium is 6ac 65hp...

Nytewind TP
10-29-2009, 12:36 PM
How did this melee problem even make it past beta?

Deathrydar
10-29-2009, 12:49 PM
How did this melee problem even make it past beta?

I'll give my personal opinion of this....

When I started beta here, a very large majority of the other beta "testers" just wanted to be insta-50'd and given uber gear to play. The GMs and Devs, being the nice people that they are, complied.

From what I experienced, not many people actually "tested" the server and submitted bug reports, a lot of people just played the high-end part of the game. I was very surprised when I started from level 1 and so much was still broken in Freeport and the surrounding newbie areas.

And multiple times I saw people complain about a bug in ooc, and when people like myself suggested that they post the bug on the forums, they would state they didn't care that much, or didn't have time to submit it.

So, the bottom line is....I agree, melee looks broken......But go easy on the devs here, they did not have much help in beta.

Danth
10-29-2009, 01:28 PM
This problem is not caused by low agility/overweight issues. Those two features are in and working perfectly (encumbered people losing agility, agility dropping under 75 causing massive AC loss). The problem this thread describes involves melee characters taking excessive damage relative to 'classic' when at proper fighting weight.

Endurance is still an issue too, though probably more straightforward to fix.

Danth

Dartagnan
10-29-2009, 04:49 PM
Hey all, this melee issue is also affecting priest classes imo. I play a cleric and am always out of mana all the time due to the mobs always hitting issues.

I think it is safe to say that something is off when the majority of the upper lvls on this server are pretty much all casters and very few tanks. It makes grouping very difficult because there are only so many to go around right now.

Basically what you have to do right now is over compensate for DPS to burn the mobs down because our tanks don't last long in fights.

I am glad that we have a server that does give us an overall classic experience, but there really is something wrong here. When you have multiple people saying there is and the demographics to show it as well, it might be something to look into.

Haynar
10-29-2009, 05:37 PM
Question to the Devs:

Are we looking at something here? Is the mitigation and avoidance based on the base EQEmu code? Would you like assistance from capable people in looking at this? I know I have a computer already set up with the latest EQEmu code, and can look at what is going on at the lower AC levels in some classic zones.

Just offering to help with issue if input or assistance would be acceptable.

Haynar

sever
10-29-2009, 10:55 PM
After doing Lord/AM/Frenzy last night for a while and all of the accompanying trash, I've noticed that avoidance is extremely low, and max damage is still fairly common. This is at about 850 buffed AC and level 50.

This isn't just at higher levels either, leading me to believe that it's a scaling issue starting from Level 1. Also, not to nerf mages or anything, but those 49 earth pets are ridiculously good. They out-damage and out-tank by a large margin, and can just be re-summoned. I can't comment on the 49 necro pet yet, since we don't have any at this time.

Something needs to be altered here, there's no question.

Aeolwind
10-30-2009, 01:29 PM
Question to the Devs:

Are we looking at something here? Is the mitigation and avoidance based on the base EQEmu code? Would you like assistance from capable people in looking at this? I know I have a computer already set up with the latest EQEmu code, and can look at what is going on at the lower AC levels in some classic zones.

Just offering to help with issue if input or assistance would be acceptable.

Haynar

Combat stuff is strictly based off Emu code. I double checked the values in rules values vs the current PEQ and there are no differences in the defense side of things.

How did this melee problem even make it past beta?

No one mentioned it. and there were several people that tested 1-50, problem was they were mainly casters. Wiz and druid I believe.

Aeolwind
10-30-2009, 01:41 PM
Well this is better than your old "This is EQEMU's fault. Not ours". :)



Thanks for the condescending remarks, they are appreciated. Now, blow it out your ass.

Haynar
10-30-2009, 02:50 PM
I can confirm that it works exactly like EQEmu.

If its off from how it should, it probably doesnt get noticed on most EMU servers because they tend to hand out at least ornate armor to everyone from the start. Not to meantion people do not stay at low levels long at all when you have 4x + exp rates.

There are a few tweaks that would be easy to make.

I know up until level 20, it is tougher than I remember. Beyond 30, as an SK, I would fear kite, because even having a full suit of sentient at the time (I didnt play in 1999, started in 2001), I could not straight up take stuff with no healing.

So if anything I think there needs to be some tweaks pre-20, but 20-50 may not be too far off.

Haynar

girth
10-30-2009, 07:13 PM
You're crazy if you don't think there is a SERIOUS problem with PC melee vs NPC melee.

Dandolar
11-01-2009, 12:33 PM
Yeah, no doubt there's a melee problem.

I just fought an even con lvl 5 gnoll with full health and he boned me 3 times in a row. I don't mean I retrieved my corpse 3 times and attempted to kill him again. Here's the breakdown:

Gnoll brings me down to 10%. I use lay on hands. Gnoll brings me back down to 10%. A friendly druid luckily walks by and, feeling sorry for me, decides to buff me and heal me and then leaves with confidence that I can now handle the situation. Gnoll kills me.

My weapon was maxed in skill. I died with gnoll having 60% health remaining. I mean, it's awful. Just awful.

Wenai
11-01-2009, 01:50 PM
Just for comparison sake ... when I was leveling in BB I remember the "a_gnoll" that level 5-7 range or whatever ... hitting way harder than I think he should. I forgot to look into it.. but maybe his HP and DMG settings are wrong... I remember those things being death.

Dandolar
11-01-2009, 02:25 PM
These were the gnolls outside of BB

girth
11-01-2009, 03:04 PM
I like how the GMs seem to want to ignore this issue. Are they all casters?

President
11-01-2009, 04:34 PM
Now that I am 17, have dual wield, double attack, higher dodge/parry, i seem to be doing better, but I still get owned pretty bad in certain cases. Still having fun, thanks for the hard work GM's.

nilbog
11-01-2009, 04:51 PM
I like how the GMs seem to want to ignore this issue. Are they all casters?

I like how people think all the "developers" do the same work. If you think all of us, even the ones who actually do the source work, missed this huge thread, you're wrong. :rolleyes:

If it helps this situation to say, "we're working on it", or "thinking of solutions", pick whichever sounds better to you. Melee and caster mechanics are important issues.

Personally, I do mostly database work, world building, and scripting. Nothing having to do with this particular problem.

Melee is high priority. Hope that helps.

girth
11-01-2009, 10:57 PM
Thank you nilbog - that does help. sorry for my asshole post

Villert
11-02-2009, 10:30 AM
I like how people think all the "developers" do the same work. If you think all of us, even the ones who actually do the source work, missed this huge thread, you're wrong. :rolleyes:

If it helps this situation to say, "we're working on it", or "thinking of solutions", pick whichever sounds better to you. Melee and caster mechanics are important issues.

Personally, I do mostly database work, world building, and scripting. Nothing having to do with this particular problem.

Melee is high priority. Hope that helps.

This is all we've wanted. It really doesn't mean much, but it's something. We haven't heard anything except, "Melee is working as intended" or, "Maybe the mob you were fighting is underconned" or, "we're on the same code as eqemu"... Thank you Nilbog, we all have faith that you'll be able to make it work, we just need to hear that you're working on it sometimes :-p

Wildir
11-02-2009, 10:54 AM
thanks for update Nilbog

Shin Noir
11-05-2009, 12:52 PM
Thanks for the condescending remarks, they are appreciated. Now, blow it out your ass.

:( Sorry Aeolwind. It's ok though, I tried all I could, but it seems I'm more a problem than helpful.

guineapig
11-05-2009, 01:15 PM
Well now that we're all friends again, let's sing a song!!! :D:D:D

Goobles
11-05-2009, 04:32 PM
Fix AC imo. Tanks need to tank.

zionmuffin
11-05-2009, 07:59 PM
Is there any data that melee players could collect that would help correct this problem? I have no idea what kind of statistical data tracking is done at the moment, but I just wanted to say that I'm sure most of us are willing to help fix this! Just let us know what ya need. :D I would like to see a constant flow of new players jumping in and giving classic another try, so lets not forget whats said in these forums may turn people off and affect their decision to play... My 2 copper worth...

-Cavarian

Wonton
11-06-2009, 01:50 PM
Agreed 100%

Think I am going to take a break as well. You have NO idea how difficult it is to tank atm.

I get maxed on by greens all the time as a warrior with full bronze, 5ac55hp rings, etc etc etc etc.

Might as well remove tank classes and just have mage pet as MT. Their pets take a beating just as well and they regen insanely fast unlike players.


My god, you're an idiot. Please don't post about things if you have no knowledge on the topic.

I solo'd a dark blue con griffen in ecommons with 70% life remaining.. What ever has been done (if anything), i'm able to solo dark blues, light blues, and the occasional green mobs that give xp with ease. So i'm not sure what everyone is complaining about. Never have I had, "omgwtfbbq a decaying skeleton hits YOU for 20 points of damage every hit. Even though their max hit is 8, wtf qq. Devs SUCK ALMOST AS MUCH AS I DO" problems.

All you monks, warriors, and rogues trolling this thread. Go reroll and stop complaining.

guineapig
11-06-2009, 02:01 PM
double post, sorry

guineapig
11-06-2009, 02:10 PM
http://www.therunes.net/guide_ac.html

This is a decent guide dealing with various AC calculations. It doesn't date back to classic but it's still helpful.
It's quite possible that the error in the code has to do with soft caps, which I quite honestly have completely forgotten about. This would explain why only certain classes seem to be experiencing this.

Also, from now on I think people posting should give as much info as possible:

class
level
AC
Agi
level and name of mobs used in example

And approximate duration of fight wouldn't be completely useless either since the longer the fight is, the greater the chance of max damage hits happening.

I for one DO NOT want to see tanks and melee disappearing from the server. Variety is my favorite part of the game and I like to see it in the groups I play with.

Basically, I needs me a meat shield to haste and buff and will do whatever I can to help resolve this for them.

Cribanox
11-06-2009, 03:22 PM
I am playing a level 9 ranger and I solo a lot, and it honestly doesnt feel any different than it did when I played 7-8 years ago. I mean, I'm wearing very old crappy armor, using a 6/22 wep with 75str, and I mean I can solo dark blues right now back to back (after a littl downtime sure).

I'm actually trying to practice bow kiting which makes some dark blues and evens start the fight at 50%-75% health.

One thing I might notice, even though its probably just in my head, is that I miss quite often.

Danth
11-06-2009, 04:29 PM
Anyone who thinks things are right in their current form has to be either a melee newbie, or an alzheimer's patient. I can think of no other explanations as to how someone can think something so blatantly broken is 'fine'.

But then again, that's the nature of forums, there's always some fanboy claiming everything's okay. There were even a few people defending the ~65% missrate a few weeks ago!

Go ahead, I want to see someone tell me that the yellow bar is working just like classic, too.


Danth

Jify
11-06-2009, 04:32 PM
I am playing a level 9 ranger and I solo a lot, and it honestly doesnt feel any different than it did when I played 7-8 years ago. I mean, I'm wearing very old crappy armor, using a 6/22 wep with 75str, and I mean I can solo dark blues right now back to back (after a littl downtime sure).

I'm actually trying to practice bow kiting which makes some dark blues and evens start the fight at 50%-75% health.

One thing I might notice, even though its probably just in my head, is that I miss quite often.

Oh come on bud. You're twinked out. That sword is a gem until your 30s. lol :)
You should be rocking a 6/30 weapon, be outfitted in patchwork etc.

I was the same way, didn't notice any problems. Then I gained a few levels and my ability to solo anything went "poof". Lucky we got snare + arrows. ;D

messiah_b
11-09-2009, 01:35 AM
Took me several hours of gameplay to get through level 4 as a monk this weekend. The actual rate of the fight and exp seems to be pretty close on, but the downtime caused by the damage taken / having to often run from white and blues seems off.

One thing that shows this is that there is no noticeable advantage to staying under the 14stone cap and getting the increased AC as it doesn't mitigate enough to make up for the slower damage of fists. It's best to dual wield weaps and hope your kicks hit at the moment for monks.

Melee was very crucial at release and most of the guilds with early success did so with strong lineups of big tanks and clerics to CH. There were a very limited number of extremely skilled necro's who could do things like solo lguk camps, but magicians forgetaboudit.

I will try and run enough tests on monk over / under 14 this week to get some noticeable results. I may also just roll a necro *sigh*

girth
11-09-2009, 01:43 PM
All you monks, warriors, and rogues trolling this thread. Go reroll and stop complaining.

I did reroll, on Dragon Age: Origins. Love my warrior.

Still awaiting inc damage fix before I log on monk again.

FatMagic
11-09-2009, 03:51 PM
DA:O -- aww yeah. Dalish Elf Rogue here. :)

Takshaka
11-10-2009, 10:41 AM
So I know this may be beating a dead horse here, but I found something on the old castersrealm comment threads that may be of interest.

This link popped up in the magician bugs thread and it had to do with Magician phantom armor.

Quote is taken from this page:http://web.archive.org/web/20010523050159/eq.castersrealm.com... (http://web.archive.org/web/20010523050159/eq.castersrealm.com/spells/magician/spelldescriptions.asp?SpellID=65&Page=2)

Recently Abashi has stated that AC is made up of two numbers. The first part is your ability to avoid blows. This number is mainly a combination of your AGI and you defense skill. The second part is the amount of damage absorbed by your armor. This is defined by the things you wear that give you AC. Warriors and Monks can have the same AC but the Monk will avoid more blows but get for near full damage. The warrior will avoid less blows but get for less then full damage more. These phantom spells give you the damage absorbtion side of AC, which is generally thought of as more usefull then the blow avoidance type of AC. I always use this spell when soloing and sometimes when in multi-mob situations.

This may explain why we are having problems with AC not working correctly? If what this guy is saying is true then your total AC is not just what effects the amount of damage that you take, but AC from agi/defense has an effect on chance to hit and ac from armor/spells affects damage taken. This is figured separately on the server, but you are just given a single number on your inventory screen.


*EDIT: Just incase some of you don't know Abashi was a Verant employee. I think he was in charge of public relations or something like that.

Villert
11-10-2009, 11:37 AM
All you monks, warriors, and rogues trolling this thread. Go reroll and stop complaining.

Ugh, fanboy it up some more, Wonton...

Something is wrong with mob damage, and these people are hardly trolling. This post is meant to discuss obvious melee problems, which is exactly what people are doing...

Lord Traxor
11-11-2009, 03:23 AM
Hope people realize EQ was hard as heck in 1999 and soloing was not really viable for melee classes.

Danth
11-11-2009, 05:37 AM
Solo capablity is still used as a benchmark. It's easier for us to judge our performance alone than when grouped with 5 other people. Despite not soloing so well as a necromancer, if we can't solo the same things on P99 as we could on live, historically (in much the same gear), then something's amiss.

I'm still waiting for some joker to try to tell me the yellow bar is working like it did on classic. Seems (as yet) nobody's THAT much of a fanboy.

Danth

stormlord
11-11-2009, 08:43 AM
Times like this I wish I had a time machine or had hte motivation to go through internet archives.

stormlord
11-11-2009, 08:44 AM
Hope people realize EQ was hard as heck in 1999 and soloing was not really viable for melee classes.

You're speaking in generalities. Sure, it was hard, but was it this hard? How do we know? The developers have to ask themselves that question all the time. We should too because we're essentially beta testers.

messiah_b
11-11-2009, 09:22 AM
Hope people realize EQ was hard as heck in 1999 and soloing was not really viable for melee classes.

This is very true which is why I said that I really don't think things are that off. However I don't recall that it was all that difficult for any class to solo through six, and there are plenty of reports of AC not affecting damage well at higher levels.

This weekend I am going to try and get some numbers on this issue by recording some tanking data sets.

Tenudil
11-11-2009, 10:08 AM
Hope people realize EQ was hard as heck in 1999 and soloing was not really viable for melee classes.

Getting pretty sick of comments like this. Solo wasn't viable because it took forever to heal up between kills. Not because we died to dark blue in 1999. Some of us did play melee characters back then. Mob hit rates of 90+ percent are NOT correct, and people saying thats not happening aren't really paying attention.

lr672931
11-11-2009, 10:27 AM
I am currently playing a warrior, and though the AC issue isn't enough to make me not play, it is definetly noticeable. I played a ranger in live classic EQ then switched to a warrior later on for quite a few years. I don't have any data or proof but it *feels* as though I get beat up a little bit more than I should be getting beat up. I don't feel like a warrior, I feel like how a ranger used to feel back in the early days :P

Just seems as though I am getting hit for near full damage much to often with appropriate AC/equipment... making tanking very inefficient in both a group and soloing. I think Takshaka posted a very relevant quote on how AC was handled in live, and would make sense as to what feels off about it right now. Just the mitigation for the most part.

Anyways, regardless I am enjoying the server and having fun, as I said it's not broken to the point of it being unplayable. Hell, I don't even really consider it broken. I think it just needs to be tweaked a little. Keep up the good work!

Villert
11-11-2009, 10:33 AM
Hope people realize EQ was hard as heck in 1999 and soloing was not really viable for melee classes.

This comment almost always comes from someone who either, 1. Doesn't play melee now, or 2. Play melee now, but didn't in '99.

And soloing was extremely viable for monks at the very least, even before kunark/velious. Most melees could solo, it just wasn't efficient, monks made it efficient with mend/bandaging and FD.

It's really not close to the way it was, and if you think it is, you're kidding yourself...

girth
11-11-2009, 10:38 AM
Monks could solo to 50 NAKED, completely naked. It happened more than a few times. If you think its even close at the moment, you should pull your head out.

Cribanox
11-12-2009, 12:32 AM
Yes, I agree. Melee's solo wasn't great back then because of the regen between fights, not because youd die to a blue.

stormlord
11-12-2009, 05:26 AM
Monks could solo to 50 NAKED, completely naked. It happened more than a few times. If you think its even close at the moment, you should pull your head out.

Doesn't sound right. I recall playing with a monk in 99, and he was nothing special. However, you might be partially right. Most of a monk's ac is avoidance-oriented due to his dodge and defensive skill. The ac he gets from leather armour is not much compared to what a warrior gets. Put another way, when compared to a warrior, monks may as well be naked.

Saying that melees soloed back then is just a joke bro. Melees had trouble soloing just a couple years ago. They might be able to kill a mob, like someone else here has said, but then they'd have to rest to full health which makes it wasted effort. And even then, I'm not entirely sure I buy that. Without my merc on the live servers, dark blues would kill me routinely - and that's a ranger.

Want to put a melee in a good circumstance? Find a real group! Get a cleric or druid for heals & buffs, get a chanter or shaman for slows & haste, get some other dps to back you up, and also enjoy the benefits of group exp distribution. There'll be a BIG difference between solo and group play at that point. Back then people tended to depend on others more, and in a group this effect was made apparent. Add all this together and it cut a big valley between soloers and groupers that has filled some with grief and others with fond remembrance.

I just get a funny feeling that this is the start of the soloers vs groupers thread. In all reality, play a solo class until we have more population to support groups. Until then, you're just making it more painful. You're filling yourself with frustration too. Make a mage, make a ranger, make a druid, make a sk, make a necromancer, make a bard, what others are there? Level them up to 50 and get some good twink gear. Then make a warrior/rogue/monk/etc. And by then maybe there'll be more people too.

To sum up my feelings about all this: a few of you sound like complainers. You might be right, but you sound suspiciously like someone who doesn't remember how hard it was to solo in 1999. Some of you sound reasonable. I think defense could be tweaked, but i'm not sure I accept that it's fundamentally flawed. If that's true, whoever has made the code did not do their homework. Until i can try the server myself (still waiting on it), I can't make a good judgement on this yet. Until then, i'll give the complainers the benefit of doubt.

Afterall, the server has been up for a month and beta was nearly empty. This could very well be a bug/flaw.

stormlord
11-12-2009, 06:05 AM
If you're serious - that's such a joke - lol. Monks were quite good in classic pre kunark. Mages, actually, were rather shunned in groups - seem unbelievable? It's not.

Monk Fists are like 14/30 at level 50, making them the best dual wieldable weapons in the game, minus the fanged skull stilleto, which I believe only dropped from GM events.

Monks useless on this server? So far, unfortunately, yes. On live pre kunark? Heavens no.

That and monks have the highest dual wield % in the game. FD is great to have too. And their kick attacks rule.

I think this guys mistake is not finding groups. A monk shouldn't be tanking, imho.

stormlord
11-12-2009, 06:12 AM
After recently playing on a different classic type server compared to this one. The player melee seem pretty close, a bit off still. But the NPC hit rates were totally different. Here the mobs barely miss and hits for almost max every time. On other servers, their hit rate is much lower. Thats why we can't solo anything with melee. The mobs hit rates are to high here.

You may be on to something about getting hit too much. However, monks would get hit for max damage quite a bit back then (according to what I've seen). I'd expect near the same for non-warriors or non-plate classes.

stormlord
11-12-2009, 06:18 AM
I have to admit, it seems weird. I thought it might have been all smoke and mirrors as I leveled my ranger up. Levels 1-7 I was able to take even cons with ease. Now, blues, I need full HP, full mana, and still may have to run. (Did I mention I'm twinked with nearly 300AC and a PGT?)

I can't imagine what the higher lvl melee are going through! Sorry guys 8(

Are you in full banded? What's your armor?

I remmeber being in blackburrow around 10 and having bought some leather armor that boosted my ac and noticing that my hp went down slower. If increasing your ac does not help in some wya, then I agree that something is wrong.

Villert
11-12-2009, 12:29 PM
Doesn't sound right. I recall playing with a monk in 99, and he was nothing special. However, you might be partially right. Most of a monk's ac is avoidance-oriented due to his dodge and defensive skill. The ac he gets from leather armour is not much compared to what a warrior gets. Put another way, when compared to a warrior, monks may as well be naked.

As far as avoidance goes, dodge and block aren't working properly at the moment - or more likely, mob hit rates being 90%+ don't allow them to work properly. AC added from leather might be less, but monks also get a bonus to their AC because of class.

That all goes without saying the biggest point; this isn't JUST a MONK problem, it's a MELEE problem - all melees are hurting from this, warriors included.

Saying that melees soloed back then is just a joke bro. Melees had trouble soloing just a couple years ago. They might be able to kill a mob, like someone else here has said, but then they'd have to rest to full health which makes it wasted effort. And even then, I'm not entirely sure I buy that. Without my merc on the live servers, dark blues would kill me routinely - and that's a ranger.

Monks, when played right, were extremely effective soloers. Combining FD, bandaging, ID and a little intelligence went a far way. I personally soloed easily til 40+ in classic as a monk, just because you couldn't, doesn't mean it couldn't be done.

The fact that you even mentioned live servers and mercs is bad enough. The fact that you can't solo WITH a merc and the mudflated equipment I'm sure you had at that point, pretty much explains your skill in this game. I won't even make a joke about the ranger part...

Want to put a melee in a good circumstance? Find a real group! Get a cleric or druid for heals & buffs, get a chanter or shaman for slows & haste, get some other dps to back you up, and also enjoy the benefits of group exp distribution. There'll be a BIG difference between solo and group play at that point. Back then people tended to depend on others more, and in a group this effect was made apparent. Add all this together and it cut a big valley between soloers and groupers that has filled some with grief and others with fond remembrance.

This really makes no sense. We're not talking about grouping here. If we were, I'd tell you that it's tough for melees to get a group in the first place, because everyone would rather have mages or enchanters in their group. This has nothing to do with anything, I'm afraid.

I just get a funny feeling that this is the start of the soloers vs groupers thread. In all reality, play a solo class until we have more population to support groups. Until then, you're just making it more painful. You're filling yourself with frustration too. Make a mage, make a ranger, make a druid, make a sk, make a necromancer, make a bard, what others are there? Level them up to 50 and get some good twink gear. Then make a warrior/rogue/monk/etc. And by then maybe there'll be more people too.

Soloers vs. groupers? What?

To sum up my feelings about all this: a few of you sound like complainers. You might be right, but you sound suspiciously like someone who doesn't remember how hard it was to solo in 1999. Some of you sound reasonable. I think defense could be tweaked, but i'm not sure I accept that it's fundamentally flawed. If that's true, whoever has made the code did not do their homework. Until i can try the server myself (still waiting on it), I can't make a good judgement on this yet. Until then, i'll give the complainers the benefit of doubt.

Afterall, the server has been up for a month and beta was nearly empty. This could very well be a bug/flaw.

... Why are you even commenting? I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but, not only have you not played melee yet on this server, you haven't even played on this server at all...

And yes, this is a bug/flaw, that's the whole point of threads like this...

girth
11-12-2009, 11:46 PM
Until i can try the server myself (still waiting on it),

Then shut the hell up.

stormlord
11-13-2009, 12:38 AM
The fact that you even mentioned live servers and mercs is bad enough. The fact that you can't solo WITH a merc and the mudflated equipment I'm sure you had at that point, pretty much explains your skill in this game. I won't even make a joke about the ranger part...

?? My point here is to say that soloing dark blues has never been easy, especially pre-sod. This is in reference to what some people have said about soloing them. My thought was, "And this is what they're confused about????"

And your other point about not being able to find groups... If people want mages and enchanters and not you, then the game is broke. To be fair, I've heard a few people in these forums say that mages couldn't find groups in classic eq; maybe something -is- broke.

Sorry about pi***** some people off.

Cheers.

Villert
11-13-2009, 12:29 PM
Sorry about pi***** some people off.Cheers.

Sorry if I came on strong with some of my posts, mate. It wasn't my intention to berate you and be an ass.

?? My point here is to say that soloing dark blues has never been easy, especially pre-sod. This is in reference to what some people have said about soloing them. My thought was, "And this is what they're confused about????"

Yeah, I wrote most of what I said before I read that you hadn't played on the server yet. Coming from a guy who never played more than a few days into Luclin, (played tons during the trilogy though) I remember what it was like to solo as a melee. And yeah, you're right - it was hard, but it was doable in certain situations and for certain classes.

When you do finally get online here, I think you'll find out exactly what we're talking about. It might not be right away, but get a few levels under a melee and you'll notice somethings not quite right.

stormlord
11-16-2009, 05:29 AM
Sorry if I came on strong with some of my posts, mate. It wasn't my intention to berate you and be an ass.



Yeah, I wrote most of what I said before I read that you hadn't played on the server yet. Coming from a guy who never played more than a few days into Luclin, (played tons during the trilogy though) I remember what it was like to solo as a melee. And yeah, you're right - it was hard, but it was doable in certain situations and for certain classes.

When you do finally get online here, I think you'll find out exactly what we're talking about. It might not be right away, but get a few levels under a melee and you'll notice somethings not quite right.

Maybe you're right. I'll get the chance to try in a few days.

stormlord
11-16-2009, 05:32 AM
So I know this may be beating a dead horse here, but I found something on the old castersrealm comment threads that may be of interest.

This link popped up in the magician bugs thread and it had to do with Magician phantom armor.

Quote is taken from this page:http://web.archive.org/web/20010523050159/eq.castersrealm.com... (http://web.archive.org/web/20010523050159/eq.castersrealm.com/spells/magician/spelldescriptions.asp?SpellID=65&Page=2)


This may explain why we are having problems with AC not working correctly? If what this guy is saying is true then your total AC is not just what effects the amount of damage that you take, but AC from agi/defense has an effect on chance to hit and ac from armor/spells affects damage taken. This is figured separately on the server, but you are just given a single number on your inventory screen.


*EDIT: Just incase some of you don't know Abashi was a Verant employee. I think he was in charge of public relations or something like that.

What I don't understand about this is .... is monk ac different than warrior ac?

Wouldn't a monk get damage mitigation if they had the same ac? Do monks just get a large amount of ac from dodge/defense/block skills and agi and very litte from armour? Hard for me to understand this.

Example:

1) Monk gets 75 ac from defense/agi (avoidance)
2) Monk gets 35 ac from equipment (dmg mitigation)

1) Equivalent warrior gets 35ac from defense/agi (avoidance)
2) Equivalent warrior gets 75ac from equipment (dmg mitigation)

(both have 110 ac displayed on the character/inventory window)

It also seems to me that most monks will have less overall ac than a warrior, and even though they'll have higher avoidance, they'll tend to take more damage and be inferior tanks because they have less mitigation. To solve that, they'd have to be twinked to have the same ac, and thusly get the mitigation bonus that'll make them equal to the warrior in defensive tanking. BUT, unless they can also get their hp to the scale that a warrior enjoys, they'll never trully be the tanking equal of a warrior.

I get this sense that monks feel they should avoid almost every blow and defensively tank equally as well as a warrior just because they have a better avoidance ability. Thing is, monks are dps and have always been dps. They're not tanks. I've seen twinked monks tank, but if your main tank is an average equipped monk then you're going to need some extra help. In classic EQ, rangers sometimes tanked, but I don't ever remember monks tanking (sorry to you monks out there). Monks want to be tanks AND dps AND pullers AND what else??

Can't be everyting, sorry monks!

If there's one thing I can think of monks that might help make them feel better... it's that you could probably go without armor longer than most others and still take hits ok. Leather doesn't have very much ac compared to plate. If all this is true, then I'd think that monks are more skill based when it comes to defense. Naked monks! Coincidentally, you can go without weapons and you still do respectable h2h damage. Take a normal (read: non-monk) melee's weapons away, and they're worthless. Don't go over 15wt!

Take this post with a grain of salt. You can even reply to my post and say STFU or "I read it with a grain of salt." That'll make me perfectly happy and I expect a few to react as though I were threatening their life.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stfu+music&search_type=&aq=f

Takshaka
11-16-2009, 11:10 AM
I think the idea is that monk AC is not necessarily different from Warrior AC, it is just that Monks tend to have more non-armor based AC and warriors have more armor based AC.

If the post that I found is indeed true, then monks should be getting hit less than warriors and for more damage(on average). However, if you think about it over time a warrior with a higher AC(even of that AC is mostly damage mitigation) should take less damage in the long run even if they are getting hit more often.

Again, if that information is correct and a monk and warrior each get hit 100 times the monk should be taking a heck of a lot more damage than the warrior(even if they had the same AC and assuming that the warrior has a lot of armor based AC). However, out of 100 attacks the monk should actually get hit far less often.

Granted, I am betting that this would be much harder to code into the server and so I do not necessarily expect it to work this way. If they can get a single AC value to at least come close to how it was on live I will be happy.

Bahleted
11-16-2009, 11:14 AM
I'm trying to organize a post for those with the knowledge and skill to help resolve the melee issue.

If interested see my post so we can get this off the ground.

This conversation seems to be well saturated in the boards so let's. Turn it into a productive solution
If anyone is interested please see my post.

Thanks for your time and attention ladies and gents

Bahleted
11-16-2009, 11:14 AM
I'm trying to organize a post for those with the knowledge and skill to help resolve the melee issue.

If interested see my post so we can get this off the ground.

This conversation seems to be well saturated in the boards so let's. Turn it into a productive solution
If anyone is interested please see my post.

Thanks for your time and attention ladies and gents

guineapig
11-16-2009, 04:25 PM
What I don't understand about this is .... is monk ac different than warrior ac?

Wouldn't a monk get damage mitigation if they had the same ac? Do monks just get a large amount of ac from dodge/defense/block skills and agi and very litte from armour? Hard for me to understand this.

Example:

1) Monk gets 75 ac from defense/agi (avoidance)
2) Monk gets 35 ac from equipment (dmg mitigation)

1) Equivalent warrior gets 35ac from defense/agi (avoidance)
2) Equivalent warrior gets 75ac from equipment (dmg mitigation)

(both have 110 ac displayed on the character/inventory window)

It also seems to me that most monks will have less overall ac than a warrior, and even though they'll have higher avoidance, they'll tend to take more damage and be inferior tanks because they have less mitigation. To solve that, they'd have to be twinked to have the same ac, and thusly get the mitigation bonus that'll make them equal to the warrior in defensive tanking. BUT, unless they can also get their hp to the scale that a warrior enjoys, they'll never trully be the tanking equal of a warrior.

I get this sense that monks feel they should avoid almost every blow and defensively tank equally as well as a warrior just because they have a better avoidance ability. Thing is, monks are dps and have always been dps. They're not tanks. I've seen twinked monks tank, but if your main tank is an average equipped monk then you're going to need some extra help. In classic EQ, rangers sometimes tanked, but I don't ever remember monks tanking (sorry to you monks out there). Monks want to be tanks AND dps AND pullers AND what else??

Can't be everyting, sorry monks!

If there's one thing I can think of monks that might help make them feel better... it's that you could probably go without armor longer than most others and still take hits ok. Leather doesn't have very much ac compared to plate. If all this is true, then I'd think that monks are more skill based when it comes to defense. Naked monks! Coincidentally, you can go without weapons and you still do respectable h2h damage. Take a normal (read: non-monk) melee's weapons away, and they're worthless. Don't go over 15wt!

Take this post with a grain of salt. You can even reply to my post and say STFU or "I read it with a grain of salt." That'll make me perfectly happy and I expect a few to react as though I were threatening their life.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stfu+music&search_type=&aq=f


The soft caps are completely different for the two classes, so supposing that both the monk and the warrior have reached their respective soft caps the same AC would not mean the same thing at all.

Also, you have to take into account defense for mitigation and dodge for avoidance. I'm not sure if the defense caps are the same for the two classes at each level, dodge might not be.


But as you said, AC for a monk should not even be remotely approaching that of a tank class.

girth
11-16-2009, 06:20 PM
Monks didn't need armor to tank, we dodged/blocked/riposted enough attacks that if you had a slow'er with you, monks could tank just fine. Once monks started getting Velious gear, it was apparent to most how OP monks were at offtanking, hence the huge nerfs in that era for monks.

Zarniwooop
11-16-2009, 06:27 PM
Mobs don't miss.

You can dodge sometimes, but they don't miss you ever.

messiah_b
11-16-2009, 08:16 PM
I do think that it is a little rough on melee's especially early on, but I am sticking with my monk as my grouping character just on the hope that he turns into a dps machine down the road. I mean sure my mage can solo reds or stream pull blues and whites at nine, but I'm sure it will get old.

Look at it this way...it's pretty goddamn fun and actually makes it more of a challenge because you have to relearn / change strategies in some situations. The best thing about the orig was the sandbox effect and learning and creating new strategies inside the environment selected.

So this sandbox is slightly different sized...are you going to rebuild the box or re-arrange the castle?

stormlord
11-17-2009, 12:37 AM
I do think that it is a little rough on melee's especially early on, but I am sticking with my monk as my grouping character just on the hope that he turns into a dps machine down the road. I mean sure my mage can solo reds or stream pull blues and whites at nine, but I'm sure it will get old.

Look at it this way...it's pretty goddamn fun and actually makes it more of a challenge because you have to relearn / change strategies in some situations. The best thing about the orig was the sandbox effect and learning and creating new strategies inside the environment selected.

So this sandbox is slightly different sized...are you going to rebuild the box or re-arrange the castle?

Mages are too good. I think that's broke. It's the elephant in the room. HOWEVER, if you have another melee in the group the pet can't keep taunt away from them. Who's going to heal the melee?

Monks have hte highest dual wield % in the game and the best 1 handers. They also have that nice kick ability :)

Plus, you get good naked defense/offense ability (yer supposed to).

http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~jhsu/everquest/eq.html
But what was it that allowed Talorien to win? Was it the rules of the contest? No armor allowed, and only a fine steel weapon in your hands? Obviously these rules are extremely biased towards Monks. They have the highest Defense skill caps of any class, in addition to have an innate AC bonus for being a Monk. Naked, a Monk has a greater proportion of his armored AC than any other class, and their AC's are among the highest in Norrath, ranking even with Warriors (full suits of Cobalt have yet to be compared). Additionally, their 1H blunt skills have the highest cap in Norrath, ending at a respectable 240 before level 50. The last thing that clinched it was Talorien was level 48, the highest level allowed in his level 40-48 bracket. Clearly victory was his alone as the sole level 48 Monk participating.

But was it the rules that allowed him victory? Or does the spectre class imbalance raise itself again? A few days before the Test of Steel (even before the Robe of the Lost Circle was upgraded), Talorien tested the waters by dueling various level 50+ Warriors while on a Plane of Hate run. The results are suprising. Against a level 53 Warrior named "Blanky", dressed in a suit of Cobalt, Indicolite, and some Crafted (I have not been able to contact him and ask how much), wielding a Jasarth Trident and a Springwood Club, Talorien won three out of three times, two of which with 3 bars of life remaining. At level 47. Obviously, something is quite wrong, for Blanky can hardly be considered poorly equipped.

Verant has always said that PvP prowess was no indication of class balance, in addition, there is group usefulness, and solo'ing ability. But the point remains, is this really fair? Warriors may claim to be the "tanks par excellance", but the claim is far from proven with comparable hybrid AC and hit points, in addition to superior Monk AC. Monks may claim partial titles in all three applications, being indespensible within certain zones or runs, in addition to being extremely able to solo. The verdict lies in Verant's court now that the results are out.

girth
11-17-2009, 02:27 AM
What are you trying to say stormlord? You post just shows how good monks were, but weren't you saying in earlier posts that monks were bad tanks?

Zarniwooop
11-17-2009, 06:27 AM
I remember monks soloing to 50 and then 60 back in the day. With ease.

Currently, melee are going to struggle, unless insanely geared to solo at all.

I've been tracking it, and today at level 11, a mob missed me for the first time. Seriously. That was the first time I've seen a miss. Every swing by a mob is a hit or a rare dodge while I have a normal success rate.

I think the devs have finally acknowledged the AC bug (or the overpowered attack of every mob in the game), but it's the most important fix out there. It's not much fun outside of groups right now for melees.

Also, yes, casters are vastly overpowered. But, that is in keeping with classic EQ as I recall. For many years casters were well ahead of melee. But, other classes, including melee, could legitimately solo, if not as fast as casters. Currently, we really can't.

Probably changes some at high level, but this wasn't how it was at low level or any other level. Nothing has ever always hit every melee class. Played some others to try it. Every swing hit or the occasional dodge. I've seen one miss.

It really needs to be the top priority fix. Or you're gonna see a very unhealthy class balance on the server. You see one already.

magic
11-17-2009, 06:32 AM
I remember soloing on my monk to 50. While leveling up I sticked to blues/whites and dodged/blocked probably 1 out of 3 attacks against me from lower levels up to about mid 30s or so. Something is definitely broken here with AC or mob attack power, which is why I play a caster.

Soda Pop
11-17-2009, 06:37 AM
I played a warrior way back then and I dont remember ever being able to successfully solo anything really. Maybe a really low blue con then bandaging back up to half health but even that was pretty risky. I would really like to play a warrior again and probably still will, but first it looks like i'll need a different toon to get him better equipped.

stormlord
11-17-2009, 07:40 AM
I'm lvl 2 now. Playing a bard. I don't know what some of you're talking about. Mobs have missed me. They don't hit max dmg everytime. Some mobs are tougher than others (beetles are tougher). I'm getting better at killing them though. So far it has been fine. My only complaints are that the client is nothing at all like classic - has a map window, has compass, functions like the current client in 2009.

Just play. Be. Be the arrow. Be the character. Act like you know nothing else. It's fun if you do that.

I learned new things about qeynos today that I never knew. Always amazes me that a place I've been to so much still holds so many secrets. I cannot fathom how much work all these scripts/quests/items/etc must involve.

I hope that this melee problem or whatever it's can be fixed. I wish you good groups in the lands of norrath.

Villert
11-17-2009, 10:26 AM
I'm lvl 2 now. Playing a bard. I don't know what some of you're talking about. Mobs have missed me. They don't hit max dmg everytime. Some mobs are tougher than others (beetles are tougher). I'm getting better at killing them though. So far it has been fine. My only complaints are that the client is nothing at all like classic - has a map window, has compass, functions like the current client in 2009.

Just play. Be. Be the arrow. Be the character. Act like you know nothing else. It's fun if you do that.

I learned new things about qeynos today that I never knew. Always amazes me that a place I've been to so much still holds so many secrets. I cannot fathom how much work all these scripts/quests/items/etc must involve.

I hope that this melee problem or whatever it's can be fixed. I wish you good groups in the lands of norrath.

Keep playing mate. Level 2 doesn't exactly take a lengthy amount of time to achieve. You might want to base your opinions on a longer survey time.

You can download different UI's (search here on forums) to achieve a more classic-esque feel. Although you won't be able to get rid of the maps, they are at least only present in zones adjacent to cities.

thrawnseg
11-17-2009, 10:41 AM
Although you won't be able to get rid of the maps, they are at least only present in zones adjacent to cities.

Really? I don't even have the BBM map. I had EC, but no NRo map. Seems wierd.

someguy
11-17-2009, 02:36 PM
When melees do get fixed, can I get some of my experience back for all the times I died on CRs because I couldn't solo blue adds?

Dolalin
11-17-2009, 03:57 PM
Back in '99 I remember two level26 human monks duoing the werebat room in unrest. They'd camp the mobs in that one room and bandaid-up in between kills. They were husband/wife if I remember right. So yea melee could do unconventional groups in classic if you were careful and knew your limits, and monks could solo blue cons.

Villert
11-17-2009, 05:39 PM
Really? I don't even have the BBM map. I had EC, but no NRo map. Seems wierd.

I guess I should have said, MOST zones adjacent to cities - hehe.

I'm not sure why exactly some work and some don't, but I remember not having a BBM or NRo map as well - which was good.

Zarniwooop
11-17-2009, 07:38 PM
I'm lvl 2 now. Playing a bard. I don't know what some of you're talking about. Mobs have missed me. They don't hit max dmg everytime. Some mobs are tougher than others (beetles are tougher). I'm getting better at killing them though. So far it has been fine. My only complaints are that the client is nothing at all like classic - has a map window, has compass, functions like the current client in 2009.

Just play. Be. Be the arrow. Be the character. Act like you know nothing else. It's fun if you do that.

I learned new things about qeynos today that I never knew. Always amazes me that a place I've been to so much still holds so many secrets. I cannot fathom how much work all these scripts/quests/items/etc must involve.

I hope that this melee problem or whatever it's can be fixed. I wish you good groups in the lands of norrath.

They don't hit max every time for anyone.

They DO hit just about every attack that isn't dodged or blocked or parried however.

girth
11-17-2009, 08:51 PM
I did not notice any issues with too many max hits, but I was playing a monk, and we are used to being hit hard, just not used to being hit so often.

I had one of the first full sets of Cured Silk(ty villert) and I still had about a 35-40% chance to win a fight against a blue con. It would be a lot higher if mend worked 100% after 100 skill like normal, but because of this combo, monks are terribly hard to play without a group. My shaman buddy tanked better than I did.

stormlord
11-17-2009, 11:04 PM
Keep playing mate. Level 2 doesn't exactly take a lengthy amount of time to achieve. You might want to base your opinions on a longer survey time.

You can download different UI's (search here on forums) to achieve a more classic-esque feel. Although you won't be able to get rid of the maps, they are at least only present in zones adjacent to cities.

One of my chars is level 4 now. Dodge works. Defense works. The mobs don't hit at max damage everytime like some people were saying here. Etc. The mobs hit most of the time, but in each fight they'll miss once or twice depending on how long it lasts, but since most of the hits are not max damage, it doesn't bother me. We'll see. Monks are much better dps at this level than some of the other melee's I tried. they get dual wield right from the start + dodge. They also get block at level 15 or something. Overall, I was very pleased with the monk. His AC was higher than the bard too (by default) and that's with dodge too!

I think i installed the ui files wrong because the login screen is black.

yaaaflow
11-17-2009, 11:09 PM
Excellent points, because killing the newbie mobs is an accurate reflection of combat at higher levels.

Wrap it up boys, melee is clearly just fine as is.

girth
11-17-2009, 11:51 PM
in each fight they'll miss once or twice

Obviously you didn't play melee back in the day if you think that's how it should be, or was.

Villert
11-18-2009, 10:34 AM
One of my chars is level 4 now. Dodge works. Defense works. The mobs don't hit at max damage everytime like some people were saying here. Etc. The mobs hit most of the time, but in each fight they'll miss once or twice depending on how long it lasts, but since most of the hits are not max damage, it doesn't bother me. We'll see. Monks are much better dps at this level than some of the other melee's I tried. they get dual wield right from the start + dodge. They also get block at level 15 or something. Overall, I was very pleased with the monk. His AC was higher than the bard too (by default) and that's with dodge too!

I think i installed the ui files wrong because the login screen is black.

Being level four doesn't exactly give you a great amount of time to formulate an opinion. Dodge at level 1 goes off maybe once every 10 fights, 150 skill in Dodge later, it goes off maybe 1.5 times every 10 fights (maybe).

Getting hit 18/20 times is a 90% hit rate - not correct, not even close.

Monks really aren't that much better DPS level 1-4 - their fists are a whopping 4/36 which is worse than rusty swords. Which is how it's supposed to be.

Monks get an AC bonus due to class, bards are meant to wear plate, therefore yes, at level 1 without equipment monks would have higher ac than bards.

I'm not sure what your login issue could be. UI shouldn't really make a difference until you're logged in, and load it up for the first time.

Cameroncr88
11-18-2009, 02:45 PM
I am sure the dev's are doing all they can to fix it... Give them time, they are providing as much man power as they possible can towards this project without going coo coo!

ardensai
11-18-2009, 03:11 PM
I still remember from 10 years ago that as an un-twink / completely new melee toon, I could solo a +1 yellow con at level 1 and it WAS a 50/50 fight. Starting at level 4 or so, the chance of soloing a +1 yellow con drastically decreased. it slowly became that solo'ing blue con mobs of -2 to -4 levels below me could still whop my ass. (For example, level 6 trying to solo a blue con gnoll at BB entrance, got owned)

I've played a monk, ranger, bard, war during the initial release of EQ, all had similar difficulties in solo'ing.

(anyone remember the undercon Griffs in NK?)

Leveling was tough as I remember, as a melee at least. I remember spending 7+ hours to get from level 1 to 5, carefully selecting my opponents to fight.

I still have the chart listing the different gaps of so called "blue con" mobs during different stages throughout a character's life. Is like at lvl 24, the level range of blue mobs become greater, I will list it when I get home. (as FYI for those who would be interested to know)

Wonton
11-18-2009, 03:15 PM
100th!

magic
11-18-2009, 03:20 PM
math is fun

Wonton
11-18-2009, 03:22 PM
100th reply

Zexa
11-18-2009, 03:31 PM
Wonton. I'm in Dallas too.

Wanna date?

Wonton
11-18-2009, 03:32 PM
Yea, come to preston and beltline on SW corner

Takon
11-18-2009, 05:32 PM
Wonton. I'm in Dallas too.

What is like 90% of the server in Dallas? (Richardson here!)

Wonton
11-18-2009, 05:34 PM
Well, Dallas isn't the gaming capitol of the world for nothin!

Bayleo
01-22-2010, 09:21 PM
Hey, if I could put in my 2cents here: I played vanilla EQ all through POP as casters. I made the mistake of coming back for the "Progression" servers as a half-elf warrior. It was like stabbing myself in the taint with a rusty fork. They just do not have the capacity to take hits, and they cannot hold agro, since (unlike hybrids) they rely entirely on procs. Limiting your tanking weapon options to.... ssoy?

This is the way original eq ran. Pet classes were godlike. The entire situation took a huge 360 when monks were soloing in Velks though, and mages were practically useless. So you can be in it for short gains, or the far-off benefits. THATS HOW EVERQUEST WORKED. TO FRUSTRATE YOU! Enjoy! :D

Ryndar
10-22-2011, 08:42 AM
Hey, if I could put in my 2cents here: I played vanilla EQ all through POP as casters. I made the mistake of coming back for the "Progression" servers as a half-elf warrior. It was like stabbing myself in the taint with a rusty fork. They just do not have the capacity to take hits, and they cannot hold agro, since (unlike hybrids) they rely entirely on procs. Limiting your tanking weapon options to.... ssoy?

This is the way original eq ran. Pet classes were godlike. The entire situation took a huge 360 when monks were soloing in Velks though, and mages were practically useless. So you can be in it for short gains, or the far-off benefits. THATS HOW EVERQUEST WORKED. TO FRUSTRATE YOU! Enjoy! :D

Warriors on the TLP servers have more than just weapon procs to hold aggro. But, the new spell line/rules of casters make it harder than it should have been.

Snaggles
10-22-2011, 01:42 PM
I got dibs on the next 9 month bump. July 2012...bring fireworks.

Tarathiel
10-22-2011, 01:49 PM
Thank you for the comment. I am now quitting my monk after hearing that though, as they are worthless.

ya monks are so worthless, they are the only non tank class that can efficiently tank kunark mobs, and they are the best melee class for soloing. all monks out there should just quit

really tho welcome to classic eq brah mobs hit like trucks =D

Barahir
10-22-2011, 01:54 PM
I got dibs on the next 9 month bump. July 2012...bring fireworks.


I'll do it at 8 months just to rain on your parade.

skorge
10-22-2011, 02:16 PM
I'll do it at 8 months just to rain on your parade.

hell ill do it at 9 months and rain on both of your parades

Snaggles
10-22-2011, 02:52 PM
hell ill do it at 9 months and rain on both of your parades

Not a fan of parades. Have fun =)

Buellen
10-23-2011, 12:51 PM
read most of thread

im a 27 ranger human average stats have ivy etched armour and good weapns. mobs do not always hit me for max damage I tend to fight the forsaken ie iksar rebels throughout kunark. 17 to 27 . start with lake of illomen and finished in warsilk woods. I do agree in one point i miss a hell fo a lot with my bow dex 110 str 103. bow kiting i miss so much make me not want to bow kite lol


One thing no one has mentioned as a possibility here on p1999 is the base code of everquest when it comes to mobs may be old style. What i mean by this is that all the mobs in orig expansion where all not just war, rogues, wizard etc etc. I remember a post or update by the dev on live talking about how orig eq expansion mobs where not always just cooki cutter warriors, rogue, monks etc. Infact a lot of old world ie orig eq mobs had special stats , abilities etc etc etc that made them totaly different than expansions. I know i remeber them patching orig eq expansion so that when you fight a war type mob all them would be war type with no tweaking

Question : is p1999 mob based of post or prepatch to old wold (orig eq )


This may account for some of the discrpencies noticed by those posting here.

stormlord
10-24-2011, 12:04 PM
read most of thread

im a 27 ranger human average stats have ivy etched armour and good weapns. mobs do not always hit me for max damage I tend to fight the forsaken ie iksar rebels throughout kunark. 17 to 27 . start with lake of illomen and finished in warsilk woods. I do agree in one point i miss a hell fo a lot with my bow dex 110 str 103. bow kiting i miss so much make me not want to bow kite lol


One thing no one has mentioned as a possibility here on p1999 is the base code of everquest when it comes to mobs may be old style. What i mean by this is that all the mobs in orig expansion where all not just war, rogues, wizard etc etc. I remember a post or update by the dev on live talking about how orig eq expansion mobs where not always just cooki cutter warriors, rogue, monks etc. Infact a lot of old world ie orig eq mobs had special stats , abilities etc etc etc that made them totaly different than expansions. I know i remeber them patching orig eq expansion so that when you fight a war type mob all them would be war type with no tweaking

Question : is p1999 mob based of post or prepatch to old wold (orig eq )


This may account for some of the discrpencies noticed by those posting here.
If you're saying that mobs in the orig release were more unique and it's true then it follows in the footsteps of items. Items went from being unique to being spreadsheet-like. Take an item in some of the latest EQ expansions and you see that they all look similar. They all have some hp/mana/etc. In orig EQ, sometimes you would see extremes that you don't see anymore. I think tha'ts because items were handmade back then.

I actually support the idea of spreadsheet items. I just think that EQ did a crappy job. Realistically, development costs would get horrible if every item was handmade. Anytime you'd need to make an overall change, you'd have to hand-change every single one. That's too expensive. So, basically, what you do is you give items unique IDs that're in a players inventory. To get the stats, you ask the generator for them by giving it the ID. This wya you can change the generator and it's reflected in every single item in existence. Handmade things are too unique and linked to human hands. They need to be linked to software hands to make it practical.

Defiant armor is another example of crappy spreadsheet items. Instead of updating old world items/mobs they just added some items to ALL drop tables. It did not reward knowledgeable players. Instead, it just gave you a random defiant item from a random mob. The quest-like nature was removed in favor of convenience. No more did you have to hunt down that bad boy for his shiny sword. You just randomly killed things like a maniac. IMHO, they subtly destroyed the heart of the low level game and made it into a joke crapfest mockery.

I think we need better software that mimics the creativity of people. Maybe the answer is some sort of hybrid. Either way, software has to get better. And with how content is exponentially growing (in relation to how disk space and processor speed are exponential), handmade things will simply become too expensive and outdated as a method. Instead, we should focus on handmade software that creates the content. This will allow us to keep up with disk space and processor speed. But we have to figure out how to make effective software-created content that isn't spreadsheet-like. Some people say ti's impossible, but they're jaded.

I think to mathematically mimic nature is the first goal in accomplishing this.