Cheating everywhere, GMs???

[zeroz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMzY5NHuEzc

This is a video I made to expose the use of 3rd party software to race (clear TOS violation). The easiest way to see it is in the obvious discrepancy in reaction times. To show that I had to make a video where you can actually count frames, do the math, and sync up several races in a row to show a pattern. Then take that data and do a statistical analysis to demonstrate its actually NOT humanly possible. Keep in mind, I only chose races that were easy to demonstrate this point. There were plenty of races that I left out simply because I had to "cut off" this project at some point, so there's enough out there for a Part 2 to this (possibly even a part 3).

Why Make This Public? Frustration, I spent 2 months making this video petition only to have it sit on the desk of the GMs for 3 months now. Also its a warning to anyone thinking of playing Project1999 to know what you're getting in to, if you are looking for a new TLP server.

------------------------------------------------

Stats for nerds: A little bit more on the statistics, the standard deviation of reaction time is 35ms for humans. This is defined as the window where 68% of all data points reside. So if you are 70ms faster than the median reaction time that is known as a '2 sigma event' meaning you're in the top 32% of reaction time. So some important numbers.
-5 Sigma Event: Odds are 1 in 3.5 million, or a 175ms reaction time advantage
-6 Sigma Event: Odds are 1 in 500 million, or a 210ms reaction time advantage
In the video we used the second fastest racer as opposed to the median racer due to simplicity. If we calculated based on the median reaction time for that race, the odds would be far worse. If anyone here has a better grasp of statistics, please do not hesitate to correct me. But I feel that will only show the odds being FAR less likely than I found in my conservative estimates.

Original Fraps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1yIyMFZLX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-71gfBu7aU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfr9V9-IfMI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paKSGTQndwU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mkzqlv-5WFA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0B5XcA_fQo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g1P5Om6FRc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_5jbm2zqcs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0svBOWFW1fo&t=45s

Sources:
https://ibmathsresources.com/2015/03...-fast-are-you/
https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
https://www.basvanhooren.com/is-it-p...-sprint-start/

In the defense of the GMs, it is possible that TOS violations are above their pay grade and only the server admins, who rarely interact with the server, are able to handle this (hopefully they see this!). However it took me 2 months to research and make that video and it sat on the desk of the GMs for 3 months without a single reply, all while my guild slowly dies and the offending guild continually brags about beating us week after week.

[Kazik]

In before they turn Joria into a unicorn and file this bad boy under resolved.

[starkind]

Gms all died 2 omicron.

[Arvan]

P99 has gms?

[Videri]

So that means these people have some kind of third party program that instantly pushes W or forward when it sees a roll over 900?

[Toryas]

Let the gaslighting commence…

[Shac]

what the fuck

[Viscere]

https://i.imgur.com/H5VB70X.jpg

[Prismaticshop]

However it took me 2 months to research and make that video

Time to get your priorities straight

also : seek help

[Flyrr]

Your own research contradicts itself. 2 months dude?

[Croco]

So that means these people have some kind of third party program that instantly pushes W or forward when it sees a roll over 900?

Yes.

[MaCtastic]

Great write-up. Not surprised, however, we all know how this ends.

[Toxigen]

holy fucking shit

time for OP to quit p99

[falkun]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMzY5NHuEzc

Stats for nerds: A little bit more on the statistics, the standard deviation of reaction time is 35ms for humans. This is defined as the window where 68% of all data points reside. So if you are 70ms faster than the median reaction time that is known as a '2 sigma event' meaning you're in the top 32% of reaction time. So some important numbers.
-5 Sigma Event: Odds are 1 in 3.5 million, or a 175ms reaction time advantage
-6 Sigma Event: Odds are 1 in 500 million, or a 210ms reaction time advantage


Emphasis mine.
1) You realize sigma is defined around a bell curve, correct? If you look at https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime, they show you the curve...its not a bell curve.
2) That 68% is for BOTH sides, yet if you are faster, you are obviously on the left side (shorter reaction time) of the bell curve. At one sigma, by your definition (again, see point 1 on why that is not accurate), if you are faster than 1 sigma then you are faster than 84% of "humans" (your defined population set).
3) From the website: "In addition to measuring your reaction time, this test is affected by the latency of your computer and monitor. Using a fast computer and low latency / high framerate monitor will improve your score." What have you done to control for monitor/computer latency in your test? I was consistently getting 250's for myself when I tested it. There's a good chance that I am slow, there is also a large chance that my monitor's latency is compounding my problem up into the 250's.

You spout off a lot of inaccurate information when trying to convey your point. This is "evidence" for people who already want these "facts" reinforced.

[falkun]

Also, I'll leave this tidbit for you:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4456887/

Which response time do you think the race line is using?

[Allishia]

Poor ogre, its not her fault head looks like a melon =P

[karadin]

I'd love to know why the author of the video was so quite to dismiss the Givincer rubber banding as server/client sync issues but refuses to do the same for Stunningly. He's 100ms+ behind Kickenit after this update:

https://i.imgur.com/g30HLQY.png

[karadin]

I'd love to know why the author of the video was so quite to dismiss the Givincer rubber banding as server/client sync issues but refuses to do the same for Stunningly. He's 100ms+ behind Kickenit after this update:

https://i.imgur.com/g30HLQY.png

And a frame later we see Kickenit get an update and is pushed forward, so both characters got the benefit of an update and Stunningly is a full 150ms+ behind:

https://i.imgur.com/xefmrEE.png

[karadin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMzY5NHuEzc

This is a video I made to expose the use of 3rd party software to race (clear TOS violation). The easiest way to see it is in the obvious discrepancy in reaction times. To show that I had to make a video where you can actually count frames, do the math, and sync up several races in a row to show a pattern. Then take that data and do a statistical analysis to demonstrate its actually NOT humanly possible. Keep in mind, I only chose races that were easy to demonstrate this point. There were plenty of races that I left out simply because I had to "cut off" this project at some point, so there's enough out there for a Part 2 to this (possibly even a part 3).

Why Make This Public? Frustration, I spent 2 months making this video petition only to have it sit on the desk of the GMs for 3 months now. Also its a warning to anyone thinking of playing Project1999 to know what you're getting in to, if you are looking for a new TLP server.

------------------------------------------------

Stats for nerds: A little bit more on the statistics, the standard deviation of reaction time is 35ms for humans. This is defined as the window where 68% of all data points reside. So if you are 70ms faster than the median reaction time that is known as a '2 sigma event' meaning you're in the top 32% of reaction time. So some important numbers.
-5 Sigma Event: Odds are 1 in 3.5 million, or a 175ms reaction time advantage
-6 Sigma Event: Odds are 1 in 500 million, or a 210ms reaction time advantage
In the video we used the second fastest racer as opposed to the median racer due to simplicity. If we calculated based on the median reaction time for that race, the odds would be far worse. If anyone here has a better grasp of statistics, please do not hesitate to correct me. But I feel that will only show the odds being FAR less likely than I found in my conservative estimates.

Original Fraps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1yIyMFZLX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-71gfBu7aU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfr9V9-IfMI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paKSGTQndwU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mkzqlv-5WFA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0B5XcA_fQo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g1P5Om6FRc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_5jbm2zqcs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0svBOWFW1fo&t=45s

Sources:
https://ibmathsresources.com/2015/03...-fast-are-you/
https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
https://www.basvanhooren.com/is-it-p...-sprint-start/

In the defense of the GMs, it is possible that TOS violations are above their pay grade and only the server admins, who rarely interact with the server, are able to handle this (hopefully they see this!). However it took me 2 months to research and make that video and it sat on the desk of the GMs for 3 months without a single reply, all while my guild slowly dies and the offending guild continually brags about beating us week after week.

In addition to my last 2 posts, you mention 150ms as some sort of magical threshhold whereby swimmers are not allowed to react or else they will be DQ'd. I can't find anything supporting that. What I did find was the following:

Current IAAF systems use a threshold method for determination of RT, with it varying for sex, age and ability of sprinters, (Lipps, Galecki and Ashton-Miller, 2011) estimated the threshold had to be reduced by 22% for female athletes to equal male RTs at the 2008 Beijing Olympics. Pain and Hibbs(2007) examined RTs using instrumented blocks and a custom algorithm to detect the initial change in force following the start signal and found that athletes could attain valid RT of <100 ms.

Obviously the above is running, but that was simply due to a lack in anything substantial for swimming. Maybe you can help us out and source some of your research here.

[Arvan]

Wow the top 1% reaction time humans on earth all found p99 and joined vanquish to race for King Tormax? That's really cool. What a weird thing to do but cool. Also i wonder what occam's razor means?

[Grumph]

On an unrelated note...

Yall hear the story of the American born skater who's skating for China now and keeps falling down?


In completely unrelated news, OOP got a Ring 10 with AG before leaving for Riot.

[Nibblewitz]

When I have evidence of cheating, I also post it in RnF instead of petitioning.

[Samoht]

WHAT THE FUCK DOES MS HAVE TO DO WITH FPS?

OP. MADE. THIS. SHIT. UP.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The problem with trying to do this kind of analyisis is you are not taking into account the time it takes for data packets to reach different clients. If the person rolling and Furoar both live close to the P99 server, and they have very fast internet, they may recieve the data packet faster than you, especially if you live farther away. It isn't like everybody got the data at the exact same time, this is a multiplayer game, and not even one hosted by a large company.

The stock market is a good example here. Companies literally buy property as close as they can to the servers that handle stock transactions so they can get their data sent to the server faster than anyone else.

[Old_PVP]

Take a step back and consider... this is what my gaming experience has become?

I presume this has to deal with "FTE" bluebism. Yeah I just made that word up, seems to fit. GMs should turn on PVP and let you all eat each other. So much GM time wasted on you insufferable blues.

Also, nerf that UI. Not classic!

[Toxigen]

On an unrelated note...

Yall hear the story of the American born skater who's skating for China now and keeps falling down?


Good. She gets what she fucking deserves, traitorous scum.

[zati]

Aw shucks real evidence shown on RnF, but it's being rejected? Obviously its all fakee. Sorry you aren't in a 250 man zerg guild wit cheaters on the race line on every spawn that has 16hr+ variance and it's mostly won by the same players; to bad doood. Rest easy tho they will continue to kill AoW and vulaks with the entitled feeling of "We earned it on a 20+ yr old elf sim whilst being unemployed" /barf

Servers raid scene is a joke for people with mental gymnastics rn. It has been for a year not sure why yall are even wasting ur time Go outside , play a different game, do something more productive or just play EQ minus the raiding.

Anyway a Big yikes to OP for wasting time thinking his efforts would change anything. Atleast it was entertaining to watch before work. Your time is probably better off applying to the CIA (Culinary institute of America) you might get accepted.

[Littul Jonn]

Good luck on your quest OP, I doubt it changes anything however. As the old saying goes, if you can’t beat ‘em join em.

[Twochain]

As a former pro CS player, albeit well over a decade ago, and me now being in my 30s, and can consistently score 150 MS on the same exact reaction time benchmark. That's going to be my first comment, i've only watched 10 seconds so far.

[Twochain]

Also literally all of the good racers in vanquish are employed lmfao. Find a better rallying call for the love of god. Okay watching.

[azxten]

People have been cheating here forever. I remember when I was in TMO I reported them for openly admitting to using MQ2 as a guild in game guild chat and nothing happened. No one cares. Raid scene is garbage, P99 is compromised, #resist.

[mycoolrausch]

As a former pro CS player, albeit well over a decade ago, and me now being in my 30s, and can consistently score 150 MS on the same exact reaction time benchmark. That's going to be my first comment, i've only watched 10 seconds so far.

cal-m for life

[Confit]

I have a Youtube video that proves, with 100% certainty, that 9/11 was an inside job. Who wants to see it?

[k9quaint]

I would have thought the GMs would have deleted this thread by now?
Reddit is more the place for things like this.

[Twochain]

Jesus this is already falling apart.

I've wrote in length how the only way two ways you can game a roll on spawn via scripts is 1. To start running on pop (Aka, ALL races need to be roll offs) and my second point, in which I stressed in great length, that on a race on spawn via roll off, the difference between a script and say ME running off the line is going to be almost no advantage. And that a low ping+High reaction time would matter more than a script + high ping. It already looks like you are proving my point.

You have the scripter in the front. RIGHT behind him is stunningly, but with an obvious gap. Yup, Stunningly almost had the same reaction time as a script. I would too. Stunningly uses a Gina trigger to play a loud ass sound when there's a roll over 900. Meaning as soon as that loud ass beep goes out your running. WE actually did a human benchmark test 2 weeks ago, stunningly was in the same realm as I was, consistently able to get into the 150 ms range.

And then, to further prove my point, the THIRD person to move off the line? Laughingor, a player with high reaction time, but plays from china. So huge ping. And then the rest. How could you all be so slow?

I'm 5 minutes into the video, and it seems you are proving my previous hypothesis more so than showing me obvious cheating.... but i'll keep watching i'm interested.

[Twochain]

Jesus this is already falling apart.

I've wrote in length how the only way two ways you can game a roll on spawn via scripts is 1. To start running on pop (Aka, ALL races need to be roll offs) and my second point, in which I stressed in great length, that on a race on spawn via roll off, the difference between a script and say ME running off the line is going to be almost no advantage. And that a low ping+High reaction time would matter more than a script + high ping. It already looks like you are proving my point.

You have the scripter in the front. RIGHT behind him is stunningly, but with an obvious gap. Yup, Stunningly almost had the same reaction time as a script. I would too. Stunningly uses a Gina trigger to play a loud ass sound when there's a roll over 900. Meaning as soon as that loud ass beep goes out your running. WE actually did a human benchmark test 2 weeks ago, stunningly was in the same realm as I was, consistently able to get into the 150 ms range.

And then, to further prove my point, the THIRD person to move off the line? Laughingor, a player with high reaction time, but plays from china. So huge ping. And then the rest. How could you all be so slow?

I'm 5 minutes into the video, and it seems you are proving my previous hypothesis more so than showing me obvious cheating.... but i'll keep watching i'm interested.


Game a footrace not a roll on spawn*

[azxten]

The entire raid scene on P99 is a joke regardless. Talking about ms reaction times to run to the raid mob on pop. Fucking hilariously unclassic.

Until the staff actually fixes the leveling curve the raid scene will remain and overcrowded unclassic joke. Fix channeling, fix Enchanters, fix all the problems with mana pools, on and on it goes the bug report forum has about 100 issues now which have gone unaddressed for years.

It shouldn't even be possible for 500 people to be max level in classic or Kunark era. It's too hard to level only the most dedicated no lifers would make it to raid level before the next expansion drops and then everyone catches up in Velious.

Fix the leveling curve and return raiding to a classic experience where mobs aren't raced and killed on pop but rather due to the lower max level population it's actually a challenge to raid between expansions. End the zerg guilds full of newb players who absolutely should not be max level and padding guild numbers to trivialize content.

It's basic game design.

[dk0]

I'm all for getting rid of cheaters and fair competition. But unfortunately I'm not sure this research does anything.

People have been using reaction time as a basis for cheating allegations since FTE was introduced, probably even earlier. There are so many variables involved related to latency, packet loss, etc. that "reaction time" can only be circumstantial evidence at best, no matter how convincing it may appear.

Staff can't take action on circumstantial evidence, it sets a really bad precedent that opens the door for tons of abuse moving forward. Ultimately, I think there needs to be a ruleset that innately supports fair competition (or at least minimizes opportunities to cheat), though I acknowledge that's not easy to do.

I think OP's 2 months would have been better spent social engineering a keylogger or process logger onto a target machine (protip: everybody wants to meet milfs in their area).

[azxten]

Also good work OP but now you'll find that no one cares. There are hundreds of us who have tried to make P99 better but the staff is very insular and doesn't care to make this a community project. It's THEIR world and raiding especially is exactly how they want it. No one knows why they want things this way but it is the way they choose things to operate.

Don't listen to the people who try to tell you that your research and conclusions are wrong. They're part of those who enjoy the broken state of P99 and attack anyone who tries to change the status quo.

[tyrant49333]

Don't make fun of the OPs learning disabilities guys. Stop.

[azxten]

Time to get your priorities straight

also : seek help

These are the kinds of comments I'm referring to. All the trolls come out to attack people who actually try to make P99 better.

Same thing happened to me when I brought up Enchanter being broken and eventually focused on channeling being wildly unclassic as a partial cause that is easily proven.

For those of us who are bored of the stale P99 meta it becomes more enjoyable to analyze the game and try to improve things than to actually play. I had fun doing my analysis and I'm sure the OP did too.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm all for getting rid of cheaters and fair competition. But unfortunately I'm not sure this research does anything.

People have been using reaction time as a basis for cheating allegations since FTE was introduced, probably even earlier. There are so many variables involved related to latency, packet loss, etc. that "reaction time" can only be circumstantial evidence at best, no matter how convincing it may appear.

Staff can't take action on circumstantial evidence, it sets a really bad precedent that opens the door for tons of abuse moving forward. Ultimately, I think there needs to be a ruleset that innately supports fair competition (or at least minimizes opportunities to cheat), though I acknowledge that's not easy to do.

I think OP's 2 months would have been better spent social engineering a keylogger or process logger onto a target machine (protip: everybody wants to meet milfs in their area).

Yup, exactly this. Sadly OP didn't take into account the computer science aspect of the problem. He would need to have all of this data I list below to even begin to have a shot at proving anything concretely:

1. Where does everybody on the line live in relation to the server? The farther the distance from the server, the longer it will take to send and receive packets.

2. What is the average ping for everybody on the line? It is 100% possible Furoar has a lower ping than the majority of players on the server for whatever reason, which is why he has an advantage.

3. What ISP is everybody using on the line? Not all ISP's are created equal, and that may contribute to things like packet loss and data routing time.

4. What is the computer specs of everybody on the line? Framerate will differ between players, which means they may receive an update a bit slower.

5. What monitors are being used by everybody on the line? Same point as number 4.

6. How does the game prioritize and send out packets? Do you even know the rate at which the server sends message data vs. player update data? It is possible the data for players starting to move arrived at your computer before the message data. It is also possible message data gets sent less often than player update data.


Online games by their very nature have these kinds of variables built into the cake. The only way you could really compare reaction times is if everybody was playing in the same room, with the same computers and monitors, and the server was also in the same room. Think of a LAN party.

[Croco]

Staff can't take action on circumstantial evidence, it sets a really bad precedent that opens the door for tons of abuse moving forward. Ultimately, I think there needs to be a ruleset that innately supports fair competition (or at least minimizes opportunities to cheat), though I acknowledge that's not easy to do.

Yes they can. Staff can do whatever the fuck they want. People seem to think that playing on p99 is some constitutional right and that no one can ever get banned without evidence that's beyond a reasonable doubt (which this most certainly is) and that's a flat out joke. The reason takp has such a great community is they have a zero tolerance policy for fuckery and toxicity and they ban early and often. P99 csr and owners could take more than a couple pointers from how takp has crafted their community.

The one thing that goes unsaid in the video posted by the OP and that goes a long way towards backing up his point and research is that aside from the sample race where kickenit cheated on purpose to present evidence to the gm's every single race video on record where Stunningly is racing he gets off the line first. Every. Single. Time. No matter the time of day, no matter if it's a race on roll or race on spawn. It's not just his reaction time that's inhuman it's also his consistency. It's robotic. Almost like it's not coming from a human at all. No one ever beats him off the line, sometimes he's matched, but never beaten.

[Samoht]

Guys. Stunningly had 104 MS ping in one screen shot. This extrapolates to mean that every single time he is playing he also has 104 MS ping. And let me make up some numbers to translate this into frames per second... and... oh, look, Stunningly was beat by someone who is openly cheating.

It can't be the unhealthy amount of time Stunningly puts into practicing to get his starts, can it? Also, where's the payoff for all of his cheating? I can't remember the last time he even had an FTE.

In other words, good reaction time off the start does not necessarily translate to a win.

[PlsNoBan]

P99 raid scene being dumb and toxic? That's weird. Not like it hasn't been atrociously bad for a decade or anything

[rezzie]

However it took me 2 months to research and make that video and it sat on the desk of the GMs for 3 months without a single reply, all while my guild slowly dies and the offending guild continually brags about beating us week after week.

How come you weren’t motivated to make this when you were in Riot and the cheats were securing you the mobs?

[rezzie]

When *they were in Riot

[zati]

Yup, exactly this. Sadly OP didn't take into account the computer science aspect of the problem. He would need to have all of this data I list below to even begin to have a shot at proving anything concretely:

1. Where does everybody on the line live in relation to the server? The farther the distance from the server, the longer it will take to send and receive packets.

2. What is the average ping for everybody on the line? It is 100% possible Furoar has a lower ping than the majority of players on the server for whatever reason, which is why he has an advantage.

3. What ISP is everybody using on the line? Not all ISP's are created equal, and that may contribute to things like packet loss and data routing time.

4. What is the computer specs of everybody on the line? Framerate will differ between players, which means they may receive an update a bit slower.

5. What monitors are being used by everybody on the line? Same point as number 4.

6. How does the game prioritize and send out packets? Do you even know the rate at which the server sends message data vs. player update data? It is possible the data for players starting to move arrived at your computer before the message data. It is also possible message data gets sent less often than player update data.


Online games by their very nature have these kinds of variables built into the cake. The only way you could really compare reaction times is if everybody was playing in the same room, with the same computers and monitors, and the server was also in the same room. Think of a LAN party.

Maybe, but if those questions above were addressed; is it not still saying racing isn't fair to begin with even having /random on spawn? They'd all have to be in the same room jerking each other off for 16 hrs straight for a competitive race to even exist. Badain and Scout were changed to non-classic mechanics (shadowstep on spawn to /random to turn in) due to "actual proof of autofire" iirc. Would the solution be Statue or Dain and outdoor dragons spawning in random locations within the zone or being a /random by guild representatives? I'm totally not gas-lighting *turns on the gas and runs*

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Maybe, but if those questions above were addressed; is it not still saying racing isn't fair to begin with even having /random on spawn? They'd all have to be in the same room jerking each other off for 16 hrs straight for a competitive race to even exist. Badain and Scout were changed to non-classic mechanics (shadowstep on spawn to /random to turn in) due to "actual proof of autofire" iirc. Would the solution be Statue or Dain and outdoor dragons spawning in random locations within the zone or being a /random by guild representatives? I'm totally not gas-lighting *turns on the gas and runs*

Everquest wasn't designed for this racing system in mind, so yeah it will probably never be very fair due to all of the technical issues. That is what you get when you are playing an emulated server of a 20 year old game:)

[Flopmoore]

Maybe they should have spent 2 months practicing race lines, but instead waste time writing novels vs of getting better.

[Profyx]

I'll fly to anyones home on P99, use your PC, I'll let anyone start the race by running forward and when I see them start running I'll chase them down and win.

Just buy my plane ticket. Or if you're in cali near SF hit me up.

[PlsNoBan]

I'll fly to anyones home on P99, use your PC, I'll let anyone start the race by running forward and when I see them start running I'll chase them down and win.

Just buy my plane ticket. Or if you're in cali near SF hit me up.

Can u teach me how to P99 endgame good?

[Kazik]

How come you weren’t motivated to make this when you were in Riot and the cheats were securing you the mobs?

Joria was in Aftermath at the time.

[Detoxx]

This is unhealthy my guy. Several people from Riot have beaten all of us that are fast off the line. The only guild that has confirmed scripters and cheaters is Riot and yes, to your point, its sad nothing was done about that.

Stunningly practices more than any of you. Stunningly is faster than majority of you (and us in Vanquish) but Stunningly doesnt cheat. Your video just pushes what you want to believe and ignore literally all the evidence that would be required to prove any sort of allegations.

I can only assume this is why it sat "on the GMs desk" for 3 months. Please seek help for you and your family's sake.

[Profyx]

Play a cleric, Learn your ABCs', and heal the tank.

Also ignore the haters, enjoy the game!

[OuterChimp]

This shit never happened on Teal.

[titanshub]

It all looks pretty damning to me. Especially the part where Detoxx arrives to dismiss the idea by implying he has an unhealthy obsession.

I'd love to see a more formalized presentation of this but I can understand that GM's may not have a background in math and it was designed to be approachable by them. However, if you have a valid argument against the methodology used to come to these conclusions then lets see it.

Until that happens this looks pretty convincing to me and the ball is in the staffs court. Based on rulings in the past I don't hold out much hope they will adequately address the rampant cheating on this server but I really hope they will do something to punish the people participating in it or at least change the rules so they don't favor cheaters. Staff please help those of us trying to play within the rules here. It's not just raiders who are negatively effected by this its everyone on the server. Allowing this undermines the legitimacy this project.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It all looks pretty damning to me. Especially the part where Detoxx arrives to dismiss the idea by implying he has an unhealthy obsession.

I'd love to see a more formalized presentation of this but I can understand that GM's may not have a background in math and it was designed to be approachable by them. However, if you have a valid argument against the methodology used to come to these conclusions then lets see it.

Until that happens this looks pretty convincing to me and the ball is in the staffs court. Based on rulings in the past I don't hold out much hope they will adequately address the rampant cheating on this server but I really hope they will do something to punish the people participating in it or at least change the rules so they don't favor cheaters. Staff please help those of us trying to play within the rules here. It's not just raiders who are negatively effected by this its everyone on the server. Allowing this undermines the legitimacy this project.

Unfortunately it is not very damning, due to OP missing the computer science aspect of this equation. I'll repost what I said earlier:

Sadly OP didn't take into account the computer science aspect of the problem. He would need to have all of this data I list below to even begin to have a shot at proving anything concretely:

1. Where does everybody on the line live in relation to the server? The farther the distance from the server, the longer it will take to send and receive packets.

2. What is the average ping for everybody on the line? It is 100% possible Furoar has a lower ping than the majority of players on the server for whatever reason, which is why he has an advantage.

3. What ISP is everybody using on the line? Not all ISP's are created equal, and that may contribute to things like packet loss and data routing time.

4. What is the computer specs of everybody on the line? Framerate will differ between players, which means they may receive an update a bit slower.

5. What monitors are being used by everybody on the line? Same point as number 4.

6. How does the game prioritize and send out packets? Do you even know the rate at which the server sends message data vs. player update data? It is possible the data for players starting to move arrived at your computer before the message data. It is also possible message data gets sent less often than player update data.


Online games by their very nature have these kinds of variables built into the cake. The only way you could really compare reaction times is if everybody was playing in the same room, with the same computers and monitors, and the server was also in the same room. Think of a LAN party.

[Profyx]

I support LAN Party racing!

[Croco]

I'll fly to anyones home on P99, use your PC, I'll let anyone start the race by running forward and when I see them start running I'll chase them down and win.

Just buy my plane ticket. Or if you're in cali near SF hit me up.

Guys I swear I'm not cheating, and to prove it I'll volunteer to do a thing that absolutely no one will call me on or facilitate to happen. Case closed!

[Trexller]

anyone remember back when like 90% of the blue server was using MQ2, so many people that they couldn't ban us all, so they stripped us of all coin on our accounts and removed 10% of our xp?

Good times.

[karadin]

It all looks pretty damning to me. Especially the part where Detoxx arrives to dismiss the idea by implying he has an unhealthy obsession.

I'd love to see a more formalized presentation of this but I can understand that GM's may not have a background in math and it was designed to be approachable by them. However, if you have a valid argument against the methodology used to come to these conclusions then lets see it.

Until that happens this looks pretty convincing to me and the ball is in the staffs court. Based on rulings in the past I don't hold out much hope they will adequately address the rampant cheating on this server but I really hope they will do something to punish the people participating in it or at least change the rules so they don't favor cheaters. Staff please help those of us trying to play within the rules here. It's not just raiders who are negatively effected by this its everyone on the server. Allowing this undermines the legitimacy this project.


OP gives every other player the rubber banding "benefit of the doubt" except for Stunningly. Once both players get a sync, you can even see in the video that Kickenit gets a slight update forwards, Stunningly gets a large update backwards. I'll repost this screenshot for your benefit. Our "control" is 150ms+ ahead of Stunningly.

https://i.imgur.com/xefmrEE.png

[Profyx]

Guys I swear I'm not cheating, and to prove it I'll volunteer to do a thing that absolutely no one will call me on or facilitate to happen. Case closed!

Theres literally no other way to prove to ignorant people otherwise. I could sit my grandma behind me with a vhs camera and have her record my runs and you guys would call it bullshit.

[bobadilx]

Guy tries to use simple data, people either say wow get a life or why can't you calculate the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? Either way when all that kael races boil down to is time off the line it's really exciting and skill based stuff.

[Samoht]

if you have a valid argument against the methodology used to come to these conclusions then lets see it.

Yeah, it's nonsense. There is no correlation between ping and FPS.

Ping is the response time between your client and the server.

FPS is the speed that it takes pixels to render from your video card to your monitor.

OP is trying to measure reaction time in ping from different computers with unknown relation to the geographic location of the hosted server when all he's got is FPS.

OP dismisses obvious flaws as "rubber banding" when in reality almost everything you see from the movement of other characters not your own fall under rubber banding. It's not precise.

The server does not monitor the position of your character. That is 100% client side (which is why warping in MQ works). Your client sends updates to the server, and the server shares those updates with other players, so the locations are no longer accurate by the time the other players receive them.

You ever sent a tell in guild chat at the same exact time of somebody else? It shows up first on your screen, but it shows up in a different order from someone else. Why? Because your chat was displayed client side without interaction from the server and chat from everybody else had to go from your client to the server to their client.

OP spent 2 months producing a 30 minute video based on the flawed assumption that he could measure reaction time frame by frame when there's literally nothing to keep the players locations synchronized in real time.

When measured against an admitted cheater, Stunningly's reaction time lost. Therefore Stunningly must be a cheater, right?

[Chortles Snortles]

hey guys check out my video in where i demonstrate my lack of understanding of the internet
(lol)

[Chortles Snortles]

sorry you didn’t get raid

[Profyx]

Either way when all that kael races boil down to is time off the line it's really exciting and skill based stuff.

If you think kael race boils down to time off the line you've never raced it. While I disagree with the OPs conclusions, I wont dismiss people having opinions or questions regarding reaction time off the line. But the truth is that the line time is irrelevant. People who win the race are running better lines than people who lose the race. This is a 91-95 second race, and People win it by more than 50ms every week, sometimes 20x that. There are few people who know the race well enough to compete, period.

[unsunghero]

Make them do a foot race IRL. With free race timing apps it’s easy to set up

Pixels for the winners and RL health for all :)

[Profyx]

If there was a way to 100% ensure the same start time, I'd be 100% for it, but it wouldn't change the outcomes at all.

And before you say "scripted speedrun"... Give me a break, Anyone trying to tool assisted speedrun script a MMO race with levitate, bumping, lag, framerate changes would be kidding themselves. Comparing TAS NES Mario speedruns to EQ Racing is laughable.

[Chortles Snortles]

hotpocket race to microwave and back

[getsome]

anyone remember back when like 90% of the blue server was using MQ2, so many people that they couldn't ban us all, so they stripped us of all coin on our accounts and removed 10% of our xp?

Good times.

It was showeq. It was 600~ accounts. We had one guy in guild who tagged seven different accounts. Most were just making maps of skyfire.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah, it's nonsense. There is no correlation between ping and FPS.

Ping is the response time between your client and the server.

FPS is the speed that it takes pixels to render from your video card to your monitor.

OP is trying to measure reaction time in ping from different computers with unknown relation to the geographic location of the hosted server when all he's got is FPS.

OP dismisses obvious flaws as "rubber banding" when in reality almost everything you see from the movement of other characters not your own fall under rubber banding. It's not precise.

The server does not monitor the position of your character. That is 100% client side (which is why warping in MQ works). Your client sends updates to the server, and the server shares those updates with other players, so the locations are no longer accurate by the time the other players receive them.

You ever sent a tell in guild chat at the same exact time of somebody else? It shows up first on your screen, but it shows up in a different order from someone else. Why? Because your chat was displayed client side without interaction from the server and chat from everybody else had to go from your client to the server to their client.

OP spent 2 months producing a 30 minute video based on the flawed assumption that he could measure reaction time frame by frame when there's literally nothing to keep the players locations synchronized in real time.

When measured against an admitted cheater, Stunningly's reaction time lost. Therefore Stunningly must be a cheater, right?

Yup, this is correct.

Online games are not nearly as accurate as they may appear to be. Generally we use what is called interpolation for the location of any player that is not your own. This means another player's movement on your screen is actually calculated purely on your own client in between movement packet updates. We basically just take the last know speed and direction of that player, and assume they are still going in that direction and at that speed until we get the next update.

When everybody's latency is low, you don't really notice interpolation happening, because the time it takes to receive the next movement packet is so low. Any minor discrepancy between your client's interpolation calculation, and the actual location of the player is going to be unnoticeable.

"Rubber Banding" occurs when there is a considerably long time between movement packet updates. Lets say it took 1 full second between movement packet updates. That means for a full second, all of the other players were simply moving in the last known direction they were going, and at the last know speed. Lots of changes in speed and direction can occur within one second, which is why you will see the "rubber banding" player teleport to a different location.

Interpolation will never be a magic bullet to solve this issue, because we can't actually see into the future to know what you are going to do next. All we can do is predict, and hope you have a good internet connection:)

[Tunabros]

OP this is the reason why Vanquish hates riot

[Tunabros]

not a huge fan of vanquish's behavior here but holy moly

what the actual fuck

[Nibblewitz]

I knew our racers were good but top 1%? Nice job, stunners!

[Detoxx]

Imagine wasting 2 months of your life dissecting other guilds fraps of your guild losing then having it get shit on for being entirely inaccurate data to make your point.

[Droxx]

Furoar literally lives in the P99 data center basement.

Sorry you're not that dedicated.

[xdrcfrx]

the entire defense against this accusation seems to essentially be "vanq racers are very good and practice a lot, therefore they cannot possibly be cheating."

pick a professional sport, and I guarantee you that when you identify the cheaters, it will always include people at the very top of the talent and dedication columns. these people, who care the most, are willing to do anything to win - including, it turns out in most circumstances, breaking the rules.

probably takes about a dozen or so hours to watch some youtube videos, learn the lines, practice the route, and get a time that's within the margin of what could be considered competitive. this isn't some kind of secret, hard to replicate, feat. the fact that one guild has such a monopoly on people willing to do that is more indicative of how stupid this is as a means of determining who gets to kill king tormax every seven days than it is of anything else.

also like to add that offering to come race someone in person doesn't really speak to the underlying accusation, which is not that stunningly isn't a good racer, but which is that stunningly is cheating to gain an advantage. he could cheat at a race he would have won anyways (much like the pro athletes referenced above).

[Chortles Snortles]

we lost so they must be cheating
(lol)

[branamil]

Imagine you have a 40 hour a week job like as a mechanic or something and when you get home to your "volunteer" job, you're dead tired and you have to watch a 2 hour presentation on the statistical anomalies of 16 bit giant slaying so that it's mystical power armor is evenly distributed to 45 year old diabetic men so that they don't throw a tantrum

[titanshub]

OP gives every other player the rubber banding "benefit of the doubt" except for Stunningly. Once both players get a sync, you can even see in the video that Kickenit gets a slight update forwards, Stunningly gets a large update backwards. I'll repost this screenshot for your benefit. Our "control" is 150ms+ ahead of Stunningly.

https://i.imgur.com/xefmrEE.png

If you examine the footage in question (Kickenit) you will see the druid rubber bands back into the pack and stays there. The false start is an obvious anomaly. I had the same questions when I was looking at that footage frame by frame but you can see him on the line still standing there once the line starts to clear out.

If its true then it should be easy to demonstrate from the footage that Stunningly appearing on the recording in a place he was not.

[karadin]

If you examine the footage in question (Kickenit) you will see the druid rubber bands back into the pack and stays there. The false start is an obvious anomaly. I had the same questions when I was looking at that footage frame by frame but you can see him on the line still standing there once the line starts to clear out.

If its true then it should be easy to demonstrate from the footage that Stunningly appearing on the recording in a place he was not.

But if Stunningly is clearly 150ms+ behind the control (Kickenit, who is definitely scripting) by that last frame, how do we accommodate for that? Ignoring that seems to run counter to the logic the OP uses on other racers (not just Givincer). IMO, the fact that Kickenit is so far ahead in that last frame when no other input is needed is really damning to OP's case.

[fritzad1]

If you think kael race boils down to time off the line you've never raced it. While I disagree with the OPs conclusions, I wont dismiss people having opinions or questions regarding reaction time off the line. But the truth is that the line time is irrelevant. People who win the race are running better lines than people who lose the race. This is a 91-95 second race, and People win it by more than 50ms every week, sometimes 20x that. There are few people who know the race well enough to compete, period.

Lol. Obviously you aren't a racer

[Twochain]

Lol. Obviously you aren't a racer

That would be stunningly, the subject of the entire video/


OP did the lords work. This is the best RnF thread in a while. Worth the time and effort tbh.

[Thomacles]

Ummm......

You do realize that this is just a game, right?

This reminds me of when I was 8 years old and we had a fight about whether the hotel was on Parkplace, or Boardwalk, after our dog tipped the board.

It didn't really matter then, and certainly doesn't matter now.

And the other person is right. The managers don't care, because in the end it's all just petty nonsense. Even if they are scripting, or glitching, or lagging, or dropping framerate,......no one was hurt, no animals were killed, and no crimes were committed.

But hey, if you wanna do a Perry Mason on a 20 year old elf sim, have at it. :)

[k9quaint]

This thread demonstrates how trivial it is to script race starts.
If the meta changes due to this new information, the server is competitive.
If the meta does not change, then it is only a contest between the people who are willing to script.

[titanshub]

Yeah, it's nonsense. There is no correlation between ping and FPS.

Ping is the response time between your client and the server.

FPS is the speed that it takes pixels to render from your video card to your monitor.

OP is trying to measure reaction time in ping from different computers with unknown relation to the geographic location of the hosted server when all he's got is FPS.

OP dismisses obvious flaws as "rubber banding" when in reality almost everything you see from the movement of other characters not your own fall under rubber banding. It's not precise.

The server does not monitor the position of your character. That is 100% client side (which is why warping in MQ works). Your client sends updates to the server, and the server shares those updates with other players, so the locations are no longer accurate by the time the other players receive them.

You ever sent a tell in guild chat at the same exact time of somebody else? It shows up first on your screen, but it shows up in a different order from someone else. Why? Because your chat was displayed client side without interaction from the server and chat from everybody else had to go from your client to the server to their client.

OP spent 2 months producing a 30 minute video based on the flawed assumption that he could measure reaction time frame by frame when there's literally nothing to keep the players locations synchronized in real time.

When measured against an admitted cheater, Stunningly's reaction time lost. Therefore Stunningly must be a cheater, right?

I think that there is an error in this logic. The idea that anything in the real world is completely provable is false. If we assume for the moment that the video in question contains no methodological or calculation errors and we compared that to a hypothetical admission of guilt from the accused parties then the statistical argument presented in the video is still more valid than the admission of guilt. This is because human testimony is a terrible source of information that is generally avoided in favor of empirical data.

All we can ever have is evidence not proof and assuming no methodological or calculation errors in that presentation then the author has moved the bar from something like 99.9% to 99.999%. If you set the bar at 100% then you have asked for the bar of proof to be set so high nobody can ever achieve it. This is bad for a server that promises a fair raid scene and impartial staff. (I'm not saying that staff are not these things just pointing it out) Everyone here including Vanquish should have a vested interest in the server maintaining its integrity.

As stated in the video, this kind of analysis in speed running is done with direct input logs of when buttons were pressed. The devs of the server presumably don't have access to that level of information about the users of p99. For this server to have any integrity in the raid the burden of reasonable doubt not absolute proof needs to be used.

If we use the burden of reasonable doubt then the accused look guilty af.

That being said, I'm bias so if you want to prove it wrong go poke actual objective holes in his analysis instead of hand waving lag from the monitor to the whatever whatever whatever. Provide a counter example where you use his methodology and produce provably honest reaction times that contradict his claims.

[Tunabros]

maybe if OP spent those 2 months practicing FTEs and engages, they might have a chance

next cycle!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you examine the footage in question (Kickenit) you will see the druid rubber bands back into the pack and stays there. The false start is an obvious anomaly. I had the same questions when I was looking at that footage frame by frame but you can see him on the line still standing there once the line starts to clear out.

If its true then it should be easy to demonstrate from the footage that Stunningly appearing on the recording in a place he was not.

None of the footage is very reliable sadly when we are talking about small variations in player location with an online game. Especially an old one where the interpolation code isn't that advanced. The only way you could show obvious cheating is if a player teleported a distance that was farther than someone could possibly go in that period of time.

Lets say the top speed of a racer is 10 meters a second after all regulation buffs have been applied (this isn't supposed to be a real number, just an example). If you see the racer jump ahead 150 meters in 2 seconds, there is no possible way for that to happen, even accounting for lag. I don't see anything like that in OP's videos.

Can I guarantee cheating did not occur? No, but the difference is small enough to fall within the normal range of expected behavior when dealing with an online game.

If the Dev's don't see any clear red flags of cheating in whatever data they capture or player made videos, they can't prove it. Honestly I would rather have Dev's that assume players are innocent until proven guilty, instead of the other way around. It would really suck to get banned for playing the game normally.

[Reiwa]

terrible. just terrible.

[Jibartik]

With deep regret we cannot get mad at the p99 race judges.

[Drakborn]

All of you need Jesus.

I only skipped through the video so I’m not going to comment on that, but I think most of you are forgetting the real advantage the supposed scripting affords. Being on a race line for several hours, ready to go in a split second is difficult. Scripted starts make it so that the guy on the line can half ass pay attention. If mob pops, the script starts, and the cheater can pause Netflix and take over within a couple seconds. This is an insane advantage over the guy with his hands on the keyboard/mouse staring intently at a wall for 4+ hours. There’s no doubt that a scripted start helps on roll starts, but race skill is more important in that scenario.

[ArbiterBlixen]

All of you need Jesus.

I only skipped through the video so I’m not going to comment on that, but I think most of you are forgetting the real advantage the supposed scripting affords. Being on a race line for several hours, ready to go in a split second is difficult. Scripted starts make it so that the guy on the line can half ass pay attention. If mob pops, the script starts, and the cheater can pause Netflix and take over within a couple seconds. This is an insane advantage over the guy with his hands on the keyboard/mouse staring intently at a wall for 4+ hours. There’s no doubt that a scripted start helps on roll starts, but race skill is more important in that scenario.

There is 3 mins from spawn till rolls start.

[titanshub]

But if Stunningly is clearly 150ms+ behind the control (Kickenit, who is definitely scripting) by that last frame, how do we accommodate for that? Ignoring that seems to run counter to the logic the OP uses on other racers (not just Givincer). IMO, the fact that Kickenit is so far ahead in that last frame when no other input is needed is really damning to OP's case.

The racers with the lowest latency has the biggest advantage. If I had to guess other factors are at play here as well such as read write speeds on the I/O. The game is writing that 900+ random to a log file that then needs to be read by the 3rd party software so delays here might be significant or not. None of that negates the use of cheat software. The claim being made by the OP that they are cheating and I'm pointing out that extra sources of lag on his computer alone does not exonerate them from that accusation. The other racers all fell within that statistical distribution dataset from humanbenchmark.com.

The argument presented here is looking at statistical distributions of the reaction times of racers (not just the accused). The OP has controlled for the major and obvious sources of latency and mechanical lag to the user as best as he can. When we do this over multiple races we can see a pattern of inhuman reaction times emerging.

If this was about 1 time then it would be an anomaly. It's the fact that it repeatedly happens time and time again is the accusation. Statistically he should fall further back in that distribution across multiple races. It's always possible that the OP cherrypicked the data which is why a more formalized accusation would be nice to see.

However, even if the OP cherrypicked the data then we are meant to believe that multiple people who have world class Olympian level reaction times all play classic everquest, are very unusually much older than normal for people with these sorts of reaction times, and all play in vanquish. (I assume nobody in riot has been caught doing this but if they are caught everyone should be banned).

I'm skeptical af about that being true. However, I'm not an expert in these things and this is just my understanding of what was presented.

[Drakborn]

There is 3 mins from spawn till rolls start.

This helped my son, it can help you too!

https://www.hookedonphonics.com/

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The racers with the lowest latency has the biggest advantage. If I had to guess other factors are at play here as well such as read write speeds on the I/O. The game is writing that 900+ random to a log file that then needs to be read by the 3rd party software so delays here might be significant or not. None of that negates the use of cheat software. The claim being made by the OP that they are cheating and I'm pointing out that extra sources of lag on his computer alone does not exonerate them from that accusation. The other racers all fell within that statistical distribution dataset from humanbenchmark.com.

The argument presented here is looking at statistical distributions of the reaction times of racers (not just the accused). The OP has controlled for the major and obvious sources of latency and mechanical lag to the user as best as he can. When we do this over multiple races we can see a pattern of inhuman reaction times emerging.

If this was about 1 time then it would be an anomaly. It's the fact that it repeatedly happens time and time again is the accusation. Statistically he should fall further back in that distribution across multiple races. It's always possible that the OP cherrypicked the data which is why a more formalized accusation would be nice to see.

However, even if the OP cherrypicked the data then we are meant to believe that multiple people who have world class Olympian level reaction times all play classic everquest, are very unusually much older than normal for people with these sorts of reaction times, and all play in vanquish. (I assume nobody in riot has been caught doing this but if they are caught everyone should be banned).

I'm skeptical af about that being true. However, I'm not an expert in these things and this is just my understanding of what was presented.

Again, you are simply ignoring the fact that reaction time on an online game is not only determined by human reaction time. This isn't an Olympic race. Data takes time to travel to and from Servers and Clients. That alone can be 200ms if you have bad ping. OP has no evidence on ruling that out as a factor. Using video recordings can only tell you if an obvious cheat (like teleporting an impossible distance) occurred. Any subtle differences are not easily distinguishable between cheating or other technical factors.

[titanshub]

None of the footage is very reliable sadly when we are talking about small variations in player location with an online game. Especially an old one where the interpolation code isn't that advanced. The only way you could show obvious cheating is if a player teleported a distance that was farther than someone could possibly go in that period of time.

Lets say the top speed of a racer is 10 meters a second after all regulation buffs have been applied (this isn't supposed to be a real number, just an example). If you see the racer jump ahead 150 meters in 2 seconds, there is no possible way for that to happen, even accounting for lag. I don't see anything like that in OP's videos.

Can I guarantee cheating did not occur? No, but the difference is small enough to fall within the normal range of expected behavior when dealing with an online game.

If the Dev's don't see any clear red flags of cheating in whatever data they capture or player made videos, they can't prove it. Honestly I would rather have Dev's that assume players are innocent until proven guilty, instead of the other way around. It would really suck to get banned for playing the game normally.

Yeah Baz, like I said in another post. Nothing is ever 100% provable. To set the bar so high its impossible to reach undermined the legitimacy of the server. This accusation isn't proof they cheated its evidence. Given the consequences to the server of allowing people to cheat as much as they want I think the bar that needs to be used is beyond a reasonable doubt. To most people, I think that line was crossed a long time ago. However, where you draw that line has major impacts on fairness to the individuals accused as well.

If the methodology and calculations used in this argument stand up I have a hard time understanding how someone could make an honest argument in favor of not punishing those who are accused because it seems unbelievable to the point of absurdity that they are not cheating. However, the real question is does OP's argument really hold water or did he make some mistakes. I think that should be demonstrateable. Go look at races further back, make a dataset and show the pack, not the outliers not conforming to the statistical distribution we expect from the human benchmark data.

[Goldknyght]

Is there a TLDR and TLDW recap? Cheaters gonna cheat n Haters gonna hate. nothing has changed in norrath.

[titanshub]

Again, you are simply ignoring the fact that reaction time on an online game is not only determined by human reaction time. This isn't an Olympic race. Data takes time to travel to and from Servers and Clients. That alone can be 200ms if you have bad ping. OP has no evidence on ruling that out as a factor. Using video recordings can only tell you if an obvious cheat (like teleporting an impossible distance) occurred. Any subtle differences are not easily distinguishable between cheating or other technical factors.

To be truthful, I'm not sure you are understanding the argument that OP is making. If I am the one who is misunderstanding then I am open to being corrected here. However, the argument presented says that certain individuals do not conform to statistical distributions of reaction times across all the races in their dataset. The chances of this being possible to do without cheating is very very improbable. Everyone else conforms to the data set except a person known to be using 3rd part autostart software (Kickinit) and people whose reaction times are so similar as to be statistically indistinguishable as his. Everyone else conforms to the distribution we expect.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah Baz, like I said in another post. Nothing is ever 100% provable. To set the bar so high its impossible to reach undermined the legitimacy of the server. This accusation isn't proof they cheated its evidence. Given the consequences to the server of allowing people to cheat as much as they want I think the bar that needs to be used is beyond a reasonable doubt. To most people, I think that line was crossed a long time ago. However, where you draw that line has major impacts on fairness to the individuals accused as well.

If the methodology and calculations used in this argument stand up I have a hard time understanding how someone could make an honest argument in favor of not punishing those who are accused because it seems unbelievable to the point of absurdity that they are not cheating. However, the real question is does OP's argument really hold water or did he make some mistakes. I think that should be demonstrateable. Go look at races further back, make a dataset and show the pack, not the outliers not conforming to the statistical distribution we expect from the human benchmark data.

I never made a claim that things are 100% provable.

I am simply pointing out that OP doesn't even have evidence approaching 80% provable, due to the technical issues related to online gaming.

I will admit OP's video is well produced, but that doesn't make his evidence good. There are a lot of videos online where someone's argument is well presented, and based on poor evidence.

[twill86]

Is there a TLDR and TLDW recap? Cheaters gonna cheat n Haters gonna hate. nothing has changed in norrath.

Tldw - vanq probably cheating

Rnf tldr - vanq - "it's only 99.4% likely he is cheating. So nothing should be done since we arent 100% sure"

[DeathsSilkyMist]

To be truthful, I'm not sure you are understanding the argument that OP is making. If I am the one who is misunderstanding then I am open to being corrected here. However, the argument presented says that certain individuals do not conform to statistical distributions of reaction times across all the races in their dataset. The chances of this being possible to do without cheating is very very improbable. Everyone else conforms to the data set except a person known to be using 3rd part autostart software (Kickinit) and people whose reaction times are so similar as to be statistically indistinguishable as his. Everyone else conforms to the distribution we expect.

I understand the argument completely:)

The top three racers on the server could simply be benefiting from low ping due to factors like proximity to the P99 server. OP has zero proof against this possibility, so his argument falls apart.

If the top three racers are good at the race AND have a generally low ping, they are going to win most of the time.

[Viscere]

The staff is litterally giggling at OP, impressed by the level of immersion

Yes, p99 is a total success

[Samoht]

I think that there is an error in this logic. The idea that anything in the real world is completely provable is false. If we assume for the moment that the video in question contains no methodological or calculation errors and we compared that to a hypothetical admission of guilt from the accused parties then the statistical argument presented in the video is still more valid than the admission of guilt. This is because human testimony is a terrible source of information that is generally avoided in favor of empirical data.

All we can ever have is evidence not proof and assuming no methodological or calculation errors in that presentation then the author has moved the bar from something like 99.9% to 99.999%. If you set the bar at 100% then you have asked for the bar of proof to be set so high nobody can ever achieve it. This is bad for a server that promises a fair raid scene and impartial staff. (I'm not saying that staff are not these things just pointing it out) Everyone here including Vanquish should have a vested interest in the server maintaining its integrity.

As stated in the video, this kind of analysis in speed running is done with direct input logs of when buttons were pressed. The devs of the server presumably don't have access to that level of information about the users of p99. For this server to have any integrity in the raid the burden of reasonable doubt not absolute proof needs to be used.

If we use the burden of reasonable doubt then the accused look guilty af.

That being said, I'm bias so if you want to prove it wrong go poke actual objective holes in his analysis instead of hand waving lag from the monitor to the whatever whatever whatever. Provide a counter example where you use his methodology and produce provably honest reaction times that contradict his claims.

wut.

Isn't that all OP provided here? Some false correlations and hand waving?

The only thing supporting his point of view that what he's saying is true is that he wants it to be true.

I don't have to prove anything false. His argument is fucking bullshit, and the fact that GMs haven't made any changes based on the video indicates to me that they agree.

The racers with the lowest latency has the biggest advantage. If I had to guess other factors are at play here as well such as read write speeds on the I/O. The game is writing that 900+ random to a log file that then needs to be read by the 3rd party software so delays here might be significant or not. None of that negates the use of cheat software. The claim being made by the OP that they are cheating and I'm pointing out that extra sources of lag on his computer alone does not exonerate them from that accusation. The other racers all fell within that statistical distribution dataset from humanbenchmark.com.

The argument presented here is looking at statistical distributions of the reaction times of racers (not just the accused). The OP has controlled for the major and obvious sources of latency and mechanical lag to the user as best as he can. When we do this over multiple races we can see a pattern of inhuman reaction times emerging.

If this was about 1 time then it would be an anomaly. It's the fact that it repeatedly happens time and time again is the accusation. Statistically he should fall further back in that distribution across multiple races. It's always possible that the OP cherrypicked the data which is why a more formalized accusation would be nice to see.

However, even if the OP cherrypicked the data then we are meant to believe that multiple people who have world class Olympian level reaction times all play classic everquest, are very unusually much older than normal for people with these sorts of reaction times, and all play in vanquish. (I assume nobody in riot has been caught doing this but if they are caught everyone should be banned).

I'm skeptical af about that being true. However, I'm not an expert in these things and this is just my understanding of what was presented.

It can't be that he's better than them, nah. NAH.

[Croco]

I understand the argument completely:)

The top three racers on the server could simply be benefiting from low ping due to factors like proximity to the P99 server. OP has zero proof against this possibility, so his argument falls apart.

If the top three racers are good at the race AND have a generally low ping, they are going to win most of the time.

Ok now take into account that the best racer on the server has dogshit ping from being located on the west coast and also that he's first off the line every, single, race. Without fail. No matter the time of day, no matter the point in the window that KT spawns. 100% consistency of being first off the line. He never gets tired and is a little slow to react, he never has an off day, never isn't completely focused and ready to bust off the race line first. That's a whole lot of smoke for there to be no fire.

[enjchanter]

introduce mythic+ to wow and that will fix everything

[enjchanter]

introduce mythic+ to wow p99 and that will fix everything

[titanshub]

I understand the argument completely:)

The top three racers on the server could simply be benefiting from low ping due to factors like proximity to the P99 server. OP has zero proof against this possibility, so his argument falls apart.

If the top three racers are good at the race AND have a generally low ping, they are going to win most of the time.

If what you are saying about super reaction and ping times is true then why are they the only outliers? If your answer is small dataset then I will say ok, can we provide counter examples? If the methodology fails to control for these variables adequately then it should be possible to be show it via counter examples. Exclude the outliers and show the pack not conforming to the statistical distribution provided. The argument provided is, to my knowledge, really the only way to determine this outside of perfect knowledge like running ring0 anticheat and recording keystrokes. The argument isn't really as much about these players had x number of reaction time please explain that away, as much as it is why do these players repeated reaction times not fall within the normal statistical distribution of reaction times that we should expect.

OP provided a very small dataset of just a handful of races maybe he cherrypicked all the data to conform to his desired results. Only way to really refute this is to do some very light science and show that his methodology is incorrect. Hand waving doesn't really refute someone using math. However, demonstrating errors would.

[Chortles Snortles]

^being this upset
(lol)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I will try to make a very simple math example to show why online games are not a great way to judge reaction times.

In case you don't know, ping measures the round trip time it takes for a player to send data to the server, and receive it back. So if a player has a ping of 20ms, that means it took something like 10ms to send the data out, and 10ms to get the data back. It doesn't have to be a 50/50 split like that, but I will use it for simplicity.

Here are the conditions for the hypothetical example:

1. Racing Player A has 20ms ping.

2. Racing Player B has 200ms ping.

3. Observing Player A has 20ms ping.

4. All three players happen to recieve the "START RACE" message at the same time (in this case the target /random number).

5. Lets assume OP is correct, and normal humans have a 250ms reaction time.

==================================================

Racing Player A would send his "STARTED MOVING" command to the server at the 260ms second mark (250ms reaction time + 10ms to get his command to the server).

Racing Player B would send his "STARTED MOVING" command to the server at the 350ms second mark (250ms reaction time + 100ms to get his command to the server).

Observing Player A would see Racing Player A start moving after 270ms of seeing the "START RACE" message (250ms reaction time + 10ms for the command to get to the server + 10ms for the command to get to Observing Player A).

Observing Player A would see Racing Player B start moving after 360ms of seeing the "START RACE" message (250ms reaction time + 100ms for the command to get to the server + 10ms for the command to get to Observing Player A).

As you can see, it would APPEAR that Racing Player A had a 90ms head start for whatever reason. But that is only due to ping, not to actual reaction time. That is why you can't compare this to an Olympic race, because there is no intermediary between the "START RACE" signal and the players in real life.

[-TK-]

Is there a TLDR and TLDW recap? Cheaters gonna cheat n Haters gonna hate. nothing has changed in norrath.

The takeaway from this thread seems to be just to go ahead and run a script to get off the line as it appears the staff can't detect it even if someone spends months of their lives trying to prove you scripted, then spend hours on a practice server learning to run a hot line so your scripting isn't wasted. If that's not enough, move closer to the server and upgrade your rig. I think that about covers it.

[Profyx]

Ok now take into account that the best racer on the server has dogshit ping from being located on the west coast and also that he's first off the line every, single, race. Without fail. No matter the time of day, no matter the point in the window that KT spawns. 100% consistency of being first off the line. He never gets tired and is a little slow to react, he never has an off day, never isn't completely focused and ready to bust off the race line first. That's a whole lot of smoke for there to be no fire.

Jeez, Im like Superman! I wish this was true

[Chortles Snortles]

or u bad

[branamil]

imagine doing statistical regression analysis to get your make believe goblin 40 more hitpoints on his finger slot.

You should thank the "cheater" for making you realize how much of your life you're wasting

[titanshub]

wut.

Isn't that all OP provided here? Some false correlations and hand waving?

The only thing supporting his point of view that what he's saying is true is that he wants it to be true.

I don't have to prove anything false. His argument is fucking bullshit, and the fact that GMs haven't made any changes based on the video indicates to me that they agree.



It can't be that he's better than them, nah. NAH.

OP made a reasonable argument to show something many have suspected for a long time. If he has made an error then the burden is on the people who disagree with the assertion to refute it. It's how science works. Now this isn't real science as its just a youtube video and not a very rigorous presentation of evidence but its enough to convince a LOT of people who play here. Do you care if people think Vanquish race winners are cheating or not? I guess I don't really care but it will stand as evidence until refuted. If you do care I think that refuting it should be relatively simple with a larger randomized dataset of races.

[Croco]

Jeez, Im like Superman! I wish this was true

I've watched over 2 dozen videos of you racing in kael and tov and you're off the line first in every single one of them. Without fail. Even at 1-5am pacific time. Instant reaction. The only races I've seen you lose are where you screw up somewhere further in the race after the start. The point in time after the script helps you get the inhuman jump.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

OP made a reasonable argument to show something many have suspected for a long time. If he has made an error then the burden is on the people who disagree with the assertion to refute it. It's how science works. Now this isn't real science as its just a youtube video and not a very rigorous presentation of evidence but its enough to convince a LOT of people who play here. Do you care if people think Vanquish race winners are cheating or not? I guess I don't really care but it will stand as evidence until refuted. If you do care I think that refuting it should be relatively simple with a larger randomized dataset of races.

Please look at this example and tell me how OP addresses it (he doesn't).

I will try to make a very simple math example to show why online games are not a great way to judge reaction times.

In case you don't know, ping measures the round trip time it takes for a player to send data to the server, and receive it back. So if a player has a ping of 20ms, that means it took something like 10ms to send the data out, and 10ms to get the data back. It doesn't have to be a 50/50 split like that, but I will use it for simplicity.

Here are the conditions for the hypothetical example:

1. Racing Player A has 20ms ping.

2. Racing Player B has 200ms ping.

3. Observing Player A has 20ms ping.

4. All three players happen to recieve the "START RACE" message at the same time (in this case the target /random number).

5. Lets assume OP is correct, and normal humans have a 250ms reaction time.

==================================================

Racing Player A would send his "STARTED MOVING" command to the server at the 260ms second mark (250ms reaction time + 10ms to get his command to the server).

Racing Player B would send his "STARTED MOVING" command to the server at the 350ms second mark (250ms reaction time + 100ms to get his command to the server).

Observing Player A would see Racing Player A start moving after 270ms of seeing the "START RACE" message (250ms reaction time + 10ms for the command to get to the server + 10ms for the command to get to Observing Player A).

Observing Player A would see Racing Player B start moving after 360ms of seeing the "START RACE" message (250ms reaction time + 100ms for the command to get to the server + 10ms for the command to get to Observing Player A).

As you can see, it would APPEAR that Racing Player A had a 90ms head start for whatever reason. But that is only due to ping, not to actual reaction time. That is why you can't compare this to an Olympic race, because there is no intermediary between the "START RACE" signal and the players in real life.

[ClephNote]

Should I git gud or document my failure for 2 months and accuse the winner of cheating and staff of incompetence/lack of caring?

Hmmmm….

[karadin]

I've watched over 2 dozen videos of you racing in kael and tov and you're off the line first in every single one of them. Without fail. Even at 1-5am pacific time. Instant reaction. The only races I've seen you lose are where you screw up somewhere further in the race after the start. The point in time after the script helps you get the inhuman jump.

You’re going to make Stunningly’s head big with compliments like that. I’ve seen plenty where he wasn’t the first off the line. People also race against him on our test server and have beaten him off the line plenty of times.

If he cheats, OPs video doesn’t come close to making the case. His arguments are flawed from the outset when he says that it is humanly impossible to react quicker than 150ms. You don’t even need to be superhuman to do that. Just look at posts in #blue-general on the day everyone was posting their results. Or just look at the research on human reaction times that completely obliterated his claim.

[Fragged]

Aikons was faster.

[MaCtastic]

inb4 everyone starts getting 100ms and some guild asks to change the rules to something else.

[titanshub]

Please look at this example and tell me how OP addresses it (he doesn't).

4. All three players happen to recieve the "START RACE" message at the same time (in this case the target /random number).

This isn't true. The players receive the /random information at 1/2 of their stated ping (not round trip in this case). So player A gets it in 10ms while player B gets it in 100ms.

The observer views the random happening at 10ms. So the observer is 1:1 with player A. All we must do is count frames and know the FPS of the recording to determine reaction time.

For player B the observer knows his ping because he made YouTube videos and we can make a reasonable assumption that this is a normal ping. It also lines up with our expectations of ping for where he lives (or so I'm told).

Because the observer knows his delay is 20ms and receiving packets from the server is half of a round trip, the time at which the observer saw the random appear minus 10ms is the time in which it left the server. We can therefor conclude that player B receives the random information 90ms after it appears on the observers recording.

We then do some basic math that includes determining if it is a 30 or 60fps recording and counting frames we can calculate the reaction time with the available information. Now we have a best case number for getting the best possible reaction time. Any additional delays in hardware thus reduce the amount of time in which the player on char B is exposed to the information before reacting.

Additional sources of lag at this point require faster than calculated reaction times to equal observed actions.

[Samoht]

OP made a reasonable argument to show something many have suspected for a long time. If he has made an error then the burden is on the people who disagree with the assertion to refute it. It's how science works. Now this isn't real science as its just a youtube video and not a very rigorous presentation of evidence but its enough to convince a LOT of people who play here. Do you care if people think Vanquish race winners are cheating or not? I guess I don't really care but it will stand as evidence until refuted. If you do care I think that refuting it should be relatively simple with a larger randomized dataset of races.

Nah, that's not how science works. The OP provided no evidence on their little calculation on how FPS = MS. It's bullshit.

The argument is not reasonable. Their hypothesis is that Stunningly is cheating, and that's inherently flawed. The question needs to be "how is stunningly so much better" which could include cheating, but opens to other possible explanations.

THAT is how science works.

Fucking losing all the time and trying to prove your opponents are cheating by using metrics set up entirely to frame them is pathetic.

They went from a bias starting point to prove that point to noone but themselves. This is like when cigarette companies funded all those studies to try to prove that cigarettes don't cause cancer.

Funny how that worked out, isn't it?

[Smoofers]

Prove it

[Ennewi]

If true, it would be hard not to draw parallels to at least one real world example, considering all of the quotes denying allegations and that he first won the Tour de France in 1999.

https://i.imgur.com/y1oglNJ.jpg

[Nibblewitz]

TL;DR

all while my guild slowly dies and the offending guild continually brags about beating us week after week.

[Samoht]

Can't get better, so we'll frame them for cheating while kickenit starts cheating himself

[titanshub]

Nah, that's not how science works. The OP provided no evidence on their little calculation on how FPS = MS. It's bullshit.

The argument is not reasonable. Their hypothesis is that Stunningly is cheating, and that's inherently flawed. The question needs to be "how is stunningly so much better" which could include cheating, but opens to other possible explanations.

THAT is how science works.

Fucking losing all the time and trying to prove your opponents are cheating by using metrics set up entirely to frame them is pathetic.

They went from a bias starting point to prove that point to noone but themselves. This is like when cigarette companies funded all those studies to try to prove that cigarettes don't cause cancer.

Funny how that worked out, isn't it?

I'm sorry you feel personally attacked but the calculation of reaction time given knowledge of ping and fps is trivial. It's also explained in the video. You should watch it.

Hand waving evidence because you disagree with the conclusion makes you sound like a flat earther. They do the same thing. I'm open to the possibility that the OPs assertions are wrong. I'll gladly change my mind on the validity of this evidence if you or someone else can provide an actual rebuttal.

[PlsNoBan]

It's almost like racing/FTE is a bad method to determine who gets to participate in endgame content

Anyone with youtube and an hour or two can whip up a script to press W when a /random pops up in their logs or a pixel color changes on bind sight. Probably more like 10-15 minutes to anyone with moderate coding skills. To seriously imply that nobody is doing this is comical. It's also near impossible to detect and will continue to happen forever as long as racing is a thing. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

[Samoht]

I'm sorry you feel personally attacked but the calculation of reaction time given knowledge of ping and fps is trivial. It's also explained in the video. You should watch it.

Hand waving evidence because you disagree with the conclusion makes you sound like a flat earther. They do the same thing. I'm open to the possibility that the OPs assertions are wrong. I'll gladly change my mind on the validity of this evidence if you or someone else can provide an actual rebuttal.

It's funny how you have so much to say but so little to add. It's like you take the video as some sort of divine source that includes knowledge that cannot be refuted.

I'm wondering if you were a major contributor then, and you feel so strongly that your evidence is solid that you refuse to accept any outside opinion.

I'm sorry your paper did not pass peer review.

You're looking more and more like a cigarette salesman with every post.

[Ennewi]

Can't get better, so we'll frame them for cheating while kickenit starts cheating himself

Jan 2001: "The simple truth is that we outwork everyone. But when you perform at a higher level in a race, you get questions about doping."

[hotkarlmarxbros]

I will try to make a very simple math example to show why online games are not a great way to judge reaction times.

In case you don't know, ping measures the round trip time it takes for a player to send data to the server, and receive it back. So if a player has a ping of 20ms, that means it took something like 10ms to send the data out, and 10ms to get the data back. It doesn't have to be a 50/50 split like that, but I will use it for simplicity.

Here are the conditions for the hypothetical example:

1. Racing Player A has 20ms ping.

2. Racing Player B has 200ms ping.

3. Observing Player A has 20ms ping.

4. All three players happen to recieve the "START RACE" message at the same time (in this case the target /random number).

5. Lets assume OP is correct, and normal humans have a 250ms reaction time.

==================================================

Racing Player A would send his "STARTED MOVING" command to the server at the 260ms second mark (250ms reaction time + 10ms to get his command to the server).

Racing Player B would send his "STARTED MOVING" command to the server at the 350ms second mark (250ms reaction time + 100ms to get his command to the server).

Observing Player A would see Racing Player A start moving after 270ms of seeing the "START RACE" message (250ms reaction time + 10ms for the command to get to the server + 10ms for the command to get to Observing Player A).

Observing Player A would see Racing Player B start moving after 360ms of seeing the "START RACE" message (250ms reaction time + 100ms for the command to get to the server + 10ms for the command to get to Observing Player A).

As you can see, it would APPEAR that Racing Player A had a 90ms head start for whatever reason. But that is only due to ping, not to actual reaction time. That is why you can't compare this to an Olympic race, because there is no intermediary between the "START RACE" signal and the players in real life.

Stunningly is very obviously on the west coast. People coming in here trying to spin the idea that ping fluctuates to the extent that 104 can somehow turn into 20 are just showing up to argue in bad faith. Your example leaves off the fact that the client has to receive the message from the server before it then sends its command to the server, so you don't halve the round trip time, you just use it. You also left off the transit time for the server to propagate the information to the observer, but that becomes a wash because the race start and run start both share this overhead.

So stunningly with 100ms ping and zero reaction time necessary due to the use of scripts clocks in at 100ms to the server. An observer with 50 ping will see the roll at 25ms and then stunningly will leave the line at 125ms for a total of 100ms from roll to run.

The fastest racers of the pack (which vary from week to week, with the exception of stunningly and the race bloodeye scripted and submitted his petition) we can say naturally select for above average reaction time and a closer position to the server. So someone on the East coast with a 30 ping and 170ms reaction time will clock in at 200ms to the server. An observer with 50 ping will see the roll at 25ms and then the legit racer (or at least one that baked in a delay to the scripts) leaves the line at 225ms for a total of 200ms from roll to run.

The racers with middling reaction speed of 250ms and located on the west coast with stunningly at 100ms will clock in at 350ms to the server and accordingly 350ms from roll to run to the observer.

Stunningly foolishly showed his hand trying to debunk his bard macroing accusation with a metronome while wildly slapping his keyboard at varying intervals and holding his keys for varying lengths of time. His times are perfectly in line with someone who has that ping and has a near zero delay in starting the race. For someone on the east coast the difference would be even more pronounced.

I'm not sure what the point of all this solidarity where people are standing in support of obvious cheaters is. Who wants to play a game with exploitable engages? If you think stunningly is the first or only person to cheat, you are crazy naive. Any mob pop can be detected via a change in the pixels on a static portion of the screen where the mob always is, any log file can be read, any action can be automated. People are trashing OP for taking time out to make a video holding everyone's hands to explain something that should be immediately obvious to anybody with any amount of imagination and the slightest understanding of computers, but the time he spent on that is a drop in the bucket compared to the time people invest literally staring at their screen doing nothing else waiting for something to happen. A dozen instances of this per week, with windows ranging from 8 (half window "on spawn" rules) to 16 to 24 hours, across anywhere from a couple people to several, all competing for this equates to time that goes directly into the trash while someone watches netflix with their feet up on the desk waiting for their script to fire. If anything is a waste of time it is this "competitive" contrivance with gaping security flaws, not someone who took a fraction of what goes into a week of tracking coverage to explain what is going on at the top end to those stuck without the ability to compete and wondering what exactly is going wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

4. All three players happen to recieve the "START RACE" message at the same time (in this case the target /random number).

This isn't true. The players receive the /random information at 1/2 of their stated ping (not round trip in this case). So player A gets it in 10ms while player B gets it in 100ms.

The observer views the random happening at 10ms. So the observer is 1:1 with player A. All we must do is count frames and know the FPS of the recording to determine reaction time.

For player B the observer knows his ping because he made YouTube videos and we can make a reasonable assumption that this is a normal ping. It also lines up with our expectations of ping for where he lives (or so I'm told).

Because the observer knows his delay is 20ms and receiving packets from the server is half of a round trip, the time at which the observer saw the random appear minus 10ms is the time in which it left the server. We can therefor conclude that player B receives the random information 90ms after it appears on the observers recording.

We then do some basic math that includes determining if it is a 30 or 60fps recording and counting frames we can calculate the reaction time with the available information. Now we have a best case number for getting the best possible reaction time. Any additional delays in hardware thus reduce the amount of time in which the player on char B is exposed to the information before reacting.

Additional sources of lag at this point require faster than calculated reaction times to equal observed actions.

I said "Happen to receive", because it is an example:) I wanted to keep the example as simple as possible. But sure, let us add that variable in if you want. It doesn't help your case or OP's. Your logic is incorrect here.

================================================== =======================================

I will try to make a very simple math example to show why online games are not a great way to judge reaction times.

In case you don't know, ping measures the round trip time it takes for a player to send data to the server, and receive it back. So if a player has a ping of 20ms, that means it took something like 10ms to send the data out, and 10ms to get the data back. It doesn't have to be a 50/50 split like that, but I will use it for simplicity.

Here are the conditions for the hypothetical example:

1. Racing Player A has 20ms ping.

2. Racing Player B has 200ms ping.

3. Observing Player has 30ms ping.

4. Rolling Player has 40ms ping.

5. The Server is the P99 server.

6. Lets assume OP is correct, and normal humans have a 250ms reaction time.




Rolling Player would send the "REQUEST RANDOM" command to the server at the 0ms mark.

The Server would receive the "REQUEST RANDOM" command from the Rolling Player at the 20ms mark (+20ms to receive the message from theRolling Player)

Racing Player A would receive the "RANDOM NUMBER 900" message at the 30ms mark (+10ms to receive the message from The Server)

Racing Player A would send the "STARTED MOVING" command to the server at the 280ms mark (+250ms reaction time).

The Server would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player A at the 290ms mark (+10ms to receive the message from the Racing Player A).

Observing Player would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player A at the 305ms mark (+15ms to receive the message from The Server.




Rolling Player would send the "REQUEST RANDOM" command to the server at the 0ms mark.

The Server would receive the "REQUEST RANDOM" command from the Rolling Player at the 20ms mark (+20ms to receive the message from theRolling Player)

Racing Player B would receive the "RANDOM NUMBER 900" message at the 120ms mark (+100ms to receive the message from The Server)

Racing Player B would send the "STARTED MOVING" command to the server at the 370ms mark (+250ms reaction time).

The Server would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player B at the 470ms mark (+100ms to receive the message from the Racing Player B).

Observing Player would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player B at the 495ms mark (+15ms to receive the message from The Server.




So in this example, you would have a difference of 190ms just from ping.

[Samoht]

I'm not sure what the point of all this solidarity where people are standing in support of obvious cheaters is. Who wants to play a game with exploitable engages? If you think stunningly is the first or only person to cheat, you are crazy naive. Any mob pop can be detected via a change in the pixels on a static portion of the screen where the mob always is, any log file can be read, any action can be automated.

I think Arcler was the first proven cheat, no? For his AFK trakanon batphones using pixel detection, right? I assume that's why Riot is so good at figuring out that everybody else is cheating and knowing exactly how they do it.

Well, first behind catherine, anyway. Autofire away!

I wonder what Arcler and catherine have in common, hmm... It's definitely not that their both in Vanquish together, is it?

Who's the real fucking cheaters here.

[Nibblewitz]

I would just trust the resident cheaters in KWSM and Riot. They seem to know what they’re talking about.

[titanshub]

It's funny how you have so much to say but so little to add. It's like you take the video as some sort of divine source that includes knowledge that cannot be refuted.

I'm wondering if you were a major contributor then, and you feel so strongly that your evidence is solid that you refuse to accept any outside opinion.

I'm sorry your paper did not pass peer review.

You're looking more and more like a cigarette salesman with every post.

I've literally pointed to multiple places where the OPs evidence could be weak. I've said how you or others should go about refuting it. Learn to read.

[titanshub]

I said "Happen to receive", because it is an example:) I wanted to keep the example as simple as possible. But sure, let us add that variable in if you want. It doesn't help your case or OP's. Your logic is incorrect here.

================================================== =======================================

I will try to make a very simple math example to show why online games are not a great way to judge reaction times.

In case you don't know, ping measures the round trip time it takes for a player to send data to the server, and receive it back. So if a player has a ping of 20ms, that means it took something like 10ms to send the data out, and 10ms to get the data back. It doesn't have to be a 50/50 split like that, but I will use it for simplicity.

Here are the conditions for the hypothetical example:

1. Racing Player A has 20ms ping.

2. Racing Player B has 200ms ping.

3. Observing Player has 30ms ping.

4. Rolling Player has 40ms ping.

5. The Server is the P99 server.

6. Lets assume OP is correct, and normal humans have a 250ms reaction time.




Rolling Player would send the "REQUEST RANDOM" command to the server at the 0ms mark.

The Server would receive the "REQUEST RANDOM" command from the Rolling Player at the 20ms mark (+20ms to receive the message from theRolling Player)

Racing Player A would receive the "RANDOM NUMBER 900" message at the 30ms mark (+10ms to receive the message from The Server)

Racing Player A would send the "STARTED MOVING" command to the server at the 280ms mark (+250ms reaction time).

The Server would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player A at the 290ms mark (+10ms to receive the message from the Racing Player A).

Observing Player would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player A at the 305ms mark (+15ms to receive the message from The Server.




Rolling Player would send the "REQUEST RANDOM" command to the server at the 0ms mark.

The Server would receive the "REQUEST RANDOM" command from the Rolling Player at the 20ms mark (+20ms to receive the message from theRolling Player)

Racing Player B would receive the "RANDOM NUMBER 900" message at the 120ms mark (+100ms to receive the message from The Server)

Racing Player B would send the "STARTED MOVING" command to the server at the 370ms mark (+250ms reaction time).

The Server would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player B at the 470ms mark (+100ms to receive the message from the Racing Player B).

Observing Player would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player B at the 495ms mark (+15ms to receive the message from The Server.




So in this example, you would have a difference of 190ms just from ping.

Your example is irrelevant because we have what we need to calculate it the way I have shown. It's just minor point that it's not even really the thrust of his assertion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your example is irrelevant because we have what we need to calculate it the way I have shown. It's just minor point that it's not even really the thrust of his assertion.

Please read the example more carefully, because it is all you need to understand why OP's evidence is invalid. He doesn't have the ping for everybody in the video, so he has no idea how the data was received.

[Ennewi]

It's funny how you have so much to say but so little to add. It's like you take the video as some sort of divine source that includes knowledge that cannot be refuted.

I'm wondering if you were a major contributor then, and you feel so strongly that your evidence is solid that you refuse to accept any outside opinion.

I'm sorry your paper did not pass peer review.

You're looking more and more like a cigarette salesman with every post.

Were you a bully?

"Yes, I was a bully. I was a bully in the sense that I tried to control the narrative and if I didn’t like what someone said I turned on them.

Is that your nature – when someone says something you don’t like, you go on attack? Have you been like that your entire life – 10 years old, 12 years old and 14 years old?

"My entire life. Before my diagnosis I was a competitor but not a fierce competitor. When I was diagnosed, that turned me into a fighter. That was good. I took that ruthless win-at-all-costs attitude into cycling which was bad."

[hotkarlmarxbros]

I think Arcler was the first proven cheat, no? For his AFK trakanon batphones using pixel detection, right? I assume that's why Riot is so good at figuring out that everybody else is cheating and knowing exactly how they do it.

Well, first behind catherine, anyway. Autofire away!

I wonder what Arcler and catherine have in common, hmm... It's definitely not that their both in Vanquish together, is it?

Who's the real fucking cheaters here.

I don't care about arcler, I don't care about stunningly, I don't really care about anybody who is cheating. The problem isn't the cheaters, it is the fact that the engages are exploitable. You ban a cheater here and there and another will just pop up to replace them so long as the engages stay the same. The box owners want to have a competitive server but refuse to provide any oversight or competitive implementations. Every guild who has "dominated" the server in the time since I've played here has done so on the coattails of cheaters, riding their momentum as far as it will take them. Aftermath, Riot, Vanquish. I'm sure the guilds that were around prior to me playing here rose through the ranks similarly. The majority of raiders here have never even raided competitively and barely understand the engages, only showed up to one side's zergfest or the other hitting their autoattack button or ch macro.

[Nibblewitz]

Could it be that both winners and losers hate losing?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't care about arcler, I don't care about stunningly, I don't really care about anybody who is cheating. The problem isn't the cheaters, it is the fact that the engages are exploitable. You ban a cheater here and there and another will just pop up to replace them so long as the engages stay the same. The box owners want to have a competitive server but refuse to provide any oversight or competitive implementations. Every guild who has "dominated" the server in the time since I've played here has done so on the coattails of cheaters, riding their momentum as far as it will take them. Aftermath, Riot, Vanquish. I'm sure the guilds that were around prior to me playing here rose through the ranks similarly. The majority of raiders here have never even raided competitively and barely understand the engages, only showed up to one side's zergfest or the other hitting their autoattack button or ch macro.

To even hope to begin to provide evidence of cheating, please explain how OP can come to any conclusions without the ping of the players involved. I will re-post my example until someone can counter it. If they cannot, OP just wasted 2 months by not understanding the basics of computer science unfortunately.

I said "Happen to receive", because it is an example:) I wanted to keep the example as simple as possible. But sure, let us add that variable in if you want. It doesn't help your case or OP's. Your logic is incorrect here.

================================================== =======================================

I will try to make a very simple math example to show why online games are not a great way to judge reaction times.

In case you don't know, ping measures the round trip time it takes for a player to send data to the server, and receive it back. So if a player has a ping of 20ms, that means it took something like 10ms to send the data out, and 10ms to get the data back. It doesn't have to be a 50/50 split like that, but I will use it for simplicity.

Here are the conditions for the hypothetical example:

1. Racing Player A has 20ms ping.

2. Racing Player B has 200ms ping.

3. Observing Player has 30ms ping.

4. Rolling Player has 40ms ping.

5. The Server is the P99 server.

6. Lets assume OP is correct, and normal humans have a 250ms reaction time.




Rolling Player would send the "REQUEST RANDOM" command to the server at the 0ms mark.

The Server would receive the "REQUEST RANDOM" command from the Rolling Player at the 20ms mark (+20ms to receive the message from the Rolling Player)

Racing Player A would receive the "RANDOM NUMBER 900" message at the 30ms mark (+10ms to receive the message from The Server)

Racing Player A would send the "STARTED MOVING" command to the server at the 280ms mark (+250ms reaction time).

The Server would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player A at the 290ms mark (+10ms to receive the message from the Racing Player A).

Observing Player would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player A at the 305ms mark (+15ms to receive the message from The Server).




Rolling Player would send the "REQUEST RANDOM" command to the server at the 0ms mark.

The Server would receive the "REQUEST RANDOM" command from the Rolling Player at the 20ms mark (+20ms to receive the message from the Rolling Player)

Racing Player B would receive the "RANDOM NUMBER 900" message at the 120ms mark (+100ms to receive the message from The Server)

Racing Player B would send the "STARTED MOVING" command to the server at the 370ms mark (+250ms reaction time).

The Server would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player B at the 470ms mark (+100ms to receive the message from the Racing Player B).

Observing Player would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player B at the 495ms mark (+15ms to receive the message from The Server).




So in this example, you would have a difference of 190ms just from ping.

[titanshub]

Please read the example more carefully, because it is all you need to understand why OP's evidence is invalid. He doesn't have the ping for everybody in the video, so he has no idea how the data was received.

Via Hotkarlmarxbro above:


"The fastest racers of the pack (which vary from week to week, with the exception of stunningly and the race bloodeye scripted and submitted his petition) we can say naturally select for above average reaction time and a closer position to the server. So someone on the East coast with a 30 ping and 170ms reaction time will clock in at 200ms to the server. An observer with 50 ping will see the roll at 25ms and then the legit racer (or at least one that baked in a delay to the scripts) leaves the line at 225ms for a total of 200ms from roll to run."

In other words all these are within the distribution that we would expect from racers.

However since you were strictly looking at the reaction times of the accused I feel it's important to point out that we know with a great deal of certainty what their response time is. It's inhuman. Additional sources of delay from the accused make the real response times even less believable because we know when the server transmitted the +900 random and we know the observer and stunninglys ping and can calculate the window for which he got the packet and when her responded in relation to the observers recording.

[PlsNoBan]

To even hope to begin to provide evidence of cheating, please explain how OP can come to any conclusions without the ping of the players involved. I will re-post my example until someone can counter it. If they cannot, OP just wasted 2 months by not understanding the basics of computer science unfortunately.

Surely someone with your proficiency in computer science would understand how simple it is to exploit this system via extremely simple scripts and how unlikely it would be to ever be detected doing so "beyond a reasonable doubt" right?

Just so we're on the same page

[Profyx]

I've watched over 2 dozen videos of you racing in kael and tov and you're off the line first in every single one of them. Without fail. Even at 1-5am pacific time. Instant reaction. The only races I've seen you lose are where you screw up somewhere further in the race after the start. The point in time after the script helps you get the inhuman jump.

I dont even think Ive raced 2 dozen times in the history of p99

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Via Hotkarlmarxbro above:


"The fastest racers of the pack (which vary from week to week, with the exception of stunningly and the race bloodeye scripted and submitted his petition) we can say naturally select for above average reaction time and a closer position to the server. So someone on the East coast with a 30 ping and 170ms reaction time will clock in at 200ms to the server. An observer with 50 ping will see the roll at 25ms and then the legit racer (or at least one that baked in a delay to the scripts) leaves the line at 225ms for a total of 200ms from roll to run."

In other words all these are within the distribution that we would expect from racers.

However since you were strictly looking at the reaction times of the accused I feel it's important to point out that we know with a great deal of certainty what their response time is. It's inhuman. Additional sources of delay from the accused make the real response times even less believable because we know when the server transmitted the +900 random and we know the observer and stunninglys ping and can calculate the window for which he got the packet and when her responded in relation to the observers recording.

Please... read my example more carefully. OP does not have the ping for everybody in those videos. You do not know how the data was sent or received. In my example, there was a 190ms difference between the two players, not even including differences in human reaction, which could happen. I am not sure how OP's data points to "inhuman" when you take this into account, unless you have the ping for everybody?

[Samoht]

In other words all these are within the distribution that we would expect from racers.

The assumed distribution. But nobody involved with the creation of this video bothered to try to figure out how Stunningly is so much better. They just wanted to prove he was cheating, and are willing to provide evidence that shows he's cheating whether the evidence is honest and factual or not.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Surely someone with your proficiency in computer science would understand how simple it is to exploit this system via extremely simple scripts and how unlikely it would be to ever be detected doing so "beyond a reasonable doubt" right?

Just so we're on the same page

Yes, you could cheat in a manner that goes undetected. But if it is undetected, how can we punish someone for it?:)

You could increase your start time by lets say 40ms with a script. But in my example, there is already a 190ms difference if the two people have equal reaction times. So instead of a difference of 190ms, you would see a difference of 230ms. Sadly that is within the margins of ping. That is why you can't even begin to check if cheating occurred unless you had proper logs of everybody's ping, and the time it took to send and receive the data.

[titanshub]

The assumed distribution. But nobody involved with the creation of this video bothered to try to figure out how Stunningly is so much better. They just wanted to prove he was cheating, and are willing to provide evidence that shows he's cheating whether the evidence is honest and factual or not.

The distribution is from humanreaction.com and their database of 81million tests. Looks pretty valid to me.

[hotkarlmarxbros]

To even hope to begin to provide evidence of cheating, please explain how OP can come to any conclusions without the ping of the players involved. I will re-post my example until someone can counter it. If they cannot, OP just wasted 2 months by not understanding the basics of computer science unfortunately.

I already engaged your example. It is becoming increasingly less relevant the more you type. Any observer sees 'race start' and 'run start' from the players strictly as a function of these other players ping + reaction time. You are not a clever snowflake hacker mastermind talking to unwashed masses. I majored in computer science, I've built TCP functionality into data sent over more primitive protocols for projects in network programming classes. I work as a programmer (albeit on mundane CRUD applications). I would also venture a guess that my corpus of knowledge is dwarfed by more than a dozen people who sit around and play this game and/or peruse this forum, but you would not be one of them.

The biggest disconnect from reality in your posts is your unwillingness to engage stunningly's actual ping that has been shown. Actual footage from him logged into the game, hilariously having so many other things obscured because he's shady as fuck, but forgetting to hide that one detail. It is time to take a breath and either face some facts or realize that all your posting is just spinning your wheels while convincing exactly nobody.

[Trexller]

"hotkarlmarxbros"

Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 78

alt-account spotted

[Samoht]

The distribution is from humanreaction.com and their database of 81million tests. Looks pretty valid to me.

The only way to prove you wrong is to tell you how he's doing it. And I'm not willing to share that with Riot players for obvious reasons. Needless to say, to assume humanreaction is measuring the correct responses is only one of the flawed assumptions from the video.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The distribution is from humanreaction.com and their database of 81million tests. Looks pretty valid to me.

It is irrelevant because that test is not done in the same way a video game is done. That website almost certainly does the reaction time on the client side exclusively, and then sends the results up to their database afterwards. It has nothing to do with a video game, where every player is receiving the same data at different periods in time. Unless you can figure out what the difference was for everybody, you can't use a single observer to determine if cheating occurred.

I already engaged your example. It is becoming increasingly less relevant the more you type. Any observer sees 'race start' and 'run start' from the players strictly as a function of these other players ping + reaction time. You are not a clever snowflake hacker mastermind talking to unwashed masses. I majored in computer science, I've built TCP functionality into data sent over more primitive protocols for projects in network programming classes. I work as a programmer (albeit on mundane CRUD applications). I would also venture a guess that my corpus of knowledge is dwarfed by more than a dozen people who sit around and play this game and/or peruse this forum, but you would not be one of them.

The biggest disconnect from reality in your posts is your unwillingness to engage stunningly's actual ping that has been shown. Actual footage from him logged into the game, hilariously having so many other things obscured because he's shady as fuck, but forgetting to hide that one detail. It is time to take a breath and either face some facts or realize that all your posting is just spinning your wheels while convincing exactly nobody.

Honestly I don't care about your credentials. You would understand what I am talking about if you are telling the truth. The first problem is you assume the ping meter at the top is even correct. I have no idea if that thing is accurate:) Just because it is displayed on the screen, it doesn't mean a damn thing.

But let's assume his ping was correct for arguments sake. You still don't have the ping of the other observers, so you again don't know the order in which the data was sent and received, so you cannot possibly account for it.

[titanshub]

The only way to prove you wrong is to tell you how he's doing it. And I'm not willing to share that with Riot players for obvious reasons. Needless to say, to assume humanreaction is measuring the correct responses is only one of the flawed assumptions from the video.

Oh so you have the evidence, your just not willing to tell anyone. You are the spitting image of a flat earth proponent. Lol

[titanshub]

It is irrelevant because that test is not done in the same way a video game is done. That website almost certainly does the reaction time on the client side exclusively, and then sends the results up to their database afterwards. It has nothing to do with a video game, where every player is receiving the same data at different periods in time. Unless you can figure out what the difference was for everybody, you can't use a single observer to determine if cheating occurred.



Honestly I don't care about your credentials. You would understand what I am talking about if you are telling the truth. The first problem is you assume the ping meter at the top is even correct. I have no idea if that thing is accurate:) Just because it is displayed on the screen, it doesn't mean a damn thing.

But let's assume his ping was correct for arguments sake. You still don't have the ping of the other observers, so you again don't know the order in which the data was sent and received, so you cannot possibly account for it.

I'm the video the OP addresses your points about the dataset. Watch the video.

[Samoht]

Oh so you have the evidence, your just not willing to tell anyone. You are the spitting image of a flat earth proponent. Lol

The simplicity of it would blow your mind. It's too bad you're incapable of seeing beyond your preconceived notion that Stunningly would have to be cheating to beat people who don't even realize that there are better ways.

Like I said before, the point of view from OP is that stunningly *has* to be cheating and goes on to fabricate metrics that support that point of view.

Nobody bothered to approach the subject from the angle of what they could be doing to do it better. Well besides Kickenit. Who openly cheated and received no punishment that I know of.

[zati]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ-SQJQXtGo

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm the video the OP addresses your points about the dataset. Watch the video.

I watched all the source videos. I don't see any huge discrepancies between the racers. The leaders were a tiny bit ahead, but nothing that indicates obvious cheating, and well within the margins of basic differences in sending and receiving data.

[titanshub]

The simplicity of it would blow your mind. It's too bad you're incapable of seeing beyond your preconceived notion that Stunningly would have to be cheating to beat people who don't even realize that there are better ways.

Like I said before, the point of view from OP is that stunningly *has* to be cheating and goes on to fabricate metrics that support that point of view.

Nobody bothered to approach the subject from the angle of what they could be doing to do it better. Well besides Kickenit. Who openly cheated and received no punishment that I know of.

Oh tell me more about your secret evidence. Personally I'm happy to be shown where OP made a mistake. I've been saying it repeatedly all day. Show where OP went wrong in his analysis or shut up. Simple as that.

[titanshub]

I watched all the source videos. I don't see any huge discrepancies between the racers. The leaders were a tiny bit ahead, but nothing that indicates obvious cheating, and well within the margins of basic differences in sending and receiving data.

As I said before you don't really understand the OPs argument or you are being disingenuous. It's always possible that OP made a mistake in his analysis but you have in no way demonstrated one.

[karadin]

Surely someone with your proficiency in computer science would understand how simple it is to exploit this system via extremely simple scripts and how unlikely it would be to ever be detected doing so "beyond a reasonable doubt" right?

Just so we're on the same page

What sort of competitive changes would you like to see that would eliminate any chance at cheating?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As I said before you don't really understand the OPs argument or you are being disingenuous. It's always possible that OP made a mistake in his analysis but you have in no way demonstrated one.

OP ignored basic computer science about data transfer over a network. So yes, he missed a big part in his analysis.

Please come back when you have the following:

1. Actual ping from all of the racers and the roller. This would first require proof the green bar at the top is accurate. If it isn't accurate, you would need to measure the ping of all players in a different manner.

2. Get the actual send/receive times for all of the racers and roller. Ping is round trip time, so it doesn't guarantee a 50/50 split between send and receive.

3. Determine how P99 prioritizes packets to be sent out. If message packets are given lower priority (and thus have more chance of being dropped), players could receive messages later than others due to this.

[PlsNoBan]

What sort of competitive changes would you like to see that would eliminate any chance at cheating?

Why does it have to be competitive? Classic EQ wasn't designed to be an e-sport my guy. It CERTAINLY wasn't designed for multiple large raid guilds to be competing for the same handful of targets for years on end. Despite the fantasies of some deranged elves around here none of this shit is classic.

[Hideousclaw]

OP did a fantastic job compiling tailored evidence to confirm the point they want confirmed while ignoring the multitude of variables that negate or put their evidence into question.

Neat work, I want my 30min back

[cd288]

Oh look it’s another post that has already been beaten to death months ago when this happened

[Detoxx]

This thread demonstrates how trivial it is to script race starts.
If the meta changes due to this new information, the server is competitive.
If the meta does not change, then it is only a contest between the people who are willing to script.

You realize that changing the racing meta will not help Riot, right? We get your guild is dead but there's no racing on 98% of the mobs. It's just 2 were talking about here...

[cd288]

I watched all the source videos. I don't see any huge discrepancies between the racers. The leaders were a tiny bit ahead, but nothing that indicates obvious cheating, and well within the margins of basic differences in sending and receiving data.

Dude sorry but you don’t know the history to this I guess. This happened months ago. Riot scripted to prove that Vanquish had been scripting. It was admitted that it happened. The cheating occurred

[cd288]

You realize that changing the racing meta will not help Riot, right? We get your guild is dead but there's no racing on 98% of the mobs. It's just 2 were talking about here...

Oh look it’s the most pathetic person on P99 who somehow still gets wound up about raiding in a 23 year old game lmao

[Samoht]

Oh tell me more about your secret evidence. Personally I'm happy to be shown where OP made a mistake. I've been saying it repeatedly all day. Show where OP went wrong in his analysis or shut up. Simple as that.

I've already done that more than once in this thread. You can't just keep saying it's right and ignoring people telling you what's wrong to prove your point.

Pull your head out of your ass.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dude sorry but you don’t know the history to this I guess. This happened months ago. Riot scripted to prove that Vanquish had been scripting. It was admitted that it happened. The cheating occurred

If that is the truth then all this proves is you can't really tell the difference between cheating and not cheating, as they are never that far ahead of the "non-cheaters". It is a minimal amount that could be accounted for via data transfer, differences in reaction times, etc.

I am sorry that Everquest 1 was not designed with this kind of racing in mind, where 100ms is the difference between victory and defeat. You will never get that kind of functionality out of EQ, and there will always be someone with an advantage simply due to their proximity to the P99 servers.

[karadin]

Oh tell me more about your secret evidence. Personally I'm happy to be shown where OP made a mistake. I've been saying it repeatedly all day. Show where OP went wrong in his analysis or shut up. Simple as that.

Okay let’s start with one simple basic point and work from there.

OP says humans are incapable of reacting faster than 150ms. This is one of the core tenets to this video. He mentions it more than once and within the first few minutes. We can see this is incorrect by looking at the benchmarking site he references and we can see this in any number of visual and audible stimulus trials.

Can we agree on that much?

[Ennewi]

The USADA itself tested Armstrong fewer than 60 times, and the International Cycling Union tested him about 215 times, the USADA report said.

… and “not a single positive test”

The other half of that often repeated claim from Armstrong and his camp has obviously carried more weight: that there was not “a single positive test.”

“Six samples that were taken from Lance Armstrong were retested in ’05 and they were positive,” USADA head Tygart recently told “60 Minutes.”

The tests were originally taken in 1999, before there was a test for EPO, he said. When new tests were conducted in 2005, “all six were flaming positive,” he said.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The USADA itself tested Armstrong fewer than 60 times, and the International Cycling Union tested him about 215 times, the USADA report said.

… and “not a single positive test”

The other half of that often repeated claim from Armstrong and his camp has obviously carried more weight: that there was not “a single positive test.”

“Six samples that were taken from Lance Armstrong were retested in ’05 and they were positive,” USADA head Tygart recently told “60 Minutes.”

The tests were originally taken in 1999, before there was a test for EPO, he said. When new tests were conducted in 2005, “all six were flaming positive,” he said.

Any real life sports analogy is irrelevant. There is no internet between Armstrong and his Bike, Armstrong and his muscles, etc. That is why online gaming is different. There is an intermediary between the player who is at their computer, and the other observers on different computers. That is why gaming tournaments are always done as a LAN party, to remove those factors as much as humanly possible.

[karadin]

Why does it have to be competitive? Classic EQ wasn't designed to be an e-sport my guy. It CERTAINLY wasn't designed for multiple large raid guilds to be competing for the same handful of targets for years on end. Despite the fantasies of some deranged elves around here none of this shit is classic.

Ignoring the fact that you’re not qualified to say what the game was designed to be, it has to be competitive because that is what the creators of p99 have said it must be. They have made it very clear that they are completely against rotations and there are leaked discord logs of them lambasting their GMs for implementing them in the past. I would be happy to link those for you.

[cd288]

If that is the truth then all this proves is you can't really tell the difference between cheating and not cheating, as they are never that far ahead of the "non-cheaters". It is a minimal amount that could be accounted for via data transfer, differences in reaction times, etc.

I am sorry that Everquest 1 was not designed with this kind of racing in mind, where 100ms is the difference between victory and defeat. You will never get that kind of functionality out of EQ, and there will always be someone with an advantage simply due to their proximity to the P99 servers.

No except you can tell the difference. I’m not sure if you’re just being stubborn here.

The cheating isn’t designed to make them “far ahead” of the non cheaters. It’s a race. They don’t need to be far ahead because the script makes them react instantly upon the spawn of the mob to start running. Someone not cheating wouldn’t be able to react that fast and therefore as long as the person/people scripting don’t make a mistake and like run into a wall or something they will always stay ahead of the non cheaters. It’s literally been proven many times as a result of this type of stuff.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No except you can tell the difference. I’m not sure if you’re just being stubborn here.

The cheating isn’t designed to make them “far ahead” of the non cheaters. It’s a race. They don’t need to be far ahead because the script makes them react instantly upon the spawn of the mob to start running. Someone not cheating wouldn’t be able to react that fast and therefore as long as the person/people scripting don’t make a mistake and like run into a wall or something they will always stay ahead of the non cheaters. It’s literally been proven many times as a result of this type of stuff.

I am not being stubborn at all. I am simply confused as to why people think an online game not even designed for racing would ever be "fair" to race in. If 100ms is the difference between victory and defeat, that 100ms can be caused simply by lag. That is the nature of playing online. If the difference can be chalked up to lag, then it can't be proven to be cheating, unless you have all of the relevant data.

[karadin]

The USADA itself tested Armstrong fewer than 60 times, and the International Cycling Union tested him about 215 times, the USADA report said.

… and “not a single positive test”

The other half of that often repeated claim from Armstrong and his camp has obviously carried more weight: that there was not “a single positive test.”

“Six samples that were taken from Lance Armstrong were retested in ’05 and they were positive,” USADA head Tygart recently told “60 Minutes.”

The tests were originally taken in 1999, before there was a test for EPO, he said. When new tests were conducted in 2005, “all six were flaming positive,” he said.


Lance Armstrong was a cheater and therefore anyone accused of cheating from that point on is a cheater. I’m glad we’ve resolved this.

[Croco]

I think Arcler was the first proven cheat, no? For his AFK trakanon batphones using pixel detection, right? I assume that's why Riot is so good at figuring out that everybody else is cheating and knowing exactly how they do it

This falsehood you're parroting here and have elsewhere has been debunked many times. How many debunkings will be enough for you to stop spouting an obvious lie? Likely no amount.

[zati]

Lance Armstrong was a cheater and therefore anyone accused of cheating from that point on is a cheater. I’m glad we’ve resolved this.

Don't think he means it that way. Probably that he got away with it for so long and with many many tests from multiple sources and being undetected..for awhile it eventually surfaces. is just something to think about ya know? source: i have a brain

[karadin]

This falsehood you're parroting here and have elsewhere has been debunked many times. How many debunkings will be enough for you to stop spouting an obvious lie? Likely no amount.

So you’re the only one that is allowed to spread falsehoods about cheating? Seems unfair.

[karadin]

Don't think he means it that way. Probably that he got away with it for so long and with many many tests from multiple sources and being undetected..for awhile it eventually surfaces. is just something to think about ya know? source: i have a brain

Lance Armstrong’s doping accusations are irrelevant to this situation. How do I know? source: I have a brain

[Ripqozko]

over/under for DSM posting in this thread, setting at 40. Which do you have?

[cd288]

I am not being stubborn at all. I am simply confused as to why people think an online game not even designed for racing would ever be "fair" to race in. If 100ms is the difference between victory and defeat, that 100ms can be caused simply by lag. That is the nature of playing online. If the difference can be chalked up to lag, then it can't be proven to be cheating, unless you have all of the relevant data.

The Vanquish team was scripting repeatedly. Riot suspected it and decided to run a script in order to prove it.

Lag doesn’t happen over and over. Stop arguing just for the sake of arguing especially about something that was literally proven months ago

[Castle2.0]

Rumor has it there is sun and fresh air outside.

[k9quaint]

You realize that changing the racing meta will not help Riot, right? We get your guild is dead but there's no racing on 98% of the mobs. It's just 2 were talking about here...

I have never been in Riot.
But I find your dedication to preserving the race format fascinating.

[karadin]

The Vanquish team was scripting repeatedly. Riot suspected it and decided to run a script in order to prove it.

Lag doesn’t happen over and over. Stop arguing just for the sake of arguing especially about something that was literally proven months ago

So riot made those videos and still Kickenit was 150ms+ farther than Stunningly within a few frames of the race. What conclusion can we draw from that?

[zati]

Lance Armstrong’s doping accusations are irrelevant to this situation. How do I know? source: I have a brain

How is cheating in a "competitive game" different than cheating in another sport or anywhere else or any other aspects in life? As you say this server is meant to be competitive. Evidence or without evidence there's always a system in place to prevent such things from happening. OP is doing a service (Could be wrong or right) because GMs' don't investigate it the way it should. What are you doing and your officers/leaders doing besides bashing someones analysis and providing no intelligent responses to further the validity, safety, and security of P99 Elves? Get off your high horse.

Source: I am smarter than you.

before you post your rebuttal : I am smarter-er than you.

[cd288]

So riot made those videos and still Kickenit was 150ms+ farther than Stunningly within a few frames of the race. What conclusion can we draw from that?

Dude ran into something along the way IIRC from the old videos that were posted in the thread months ago.

Both scripted characters react literally the same second of the spawn so it’s quite clearly automated. Anyone pretending it’s not is being purposefully ignorant

[cd288]

Dude ran into something along the way IIRC from the old videos that were posted in the thread months ago.

Both scripted characters react literally the same second of the spawn so it’s quite clearly automated. Anyone pretending it’s not is being purposefully ignorant

And the most embarrassing thing about it was Vanquish made all these posts like “Riot cheats!!” and then were like oh wait them using a script proves we’ve been scripting this entire time. Funniest backfire of an entire guild I’ve seen on P99 lmao

[karadin]

How is cheating in a "competitive game" different than cheating in another sport or anywhere else or any other aspects in life? As you say this server is meant to be competitive. Evidence or without evidence there's always a system in place to prevent such things from happening. OP is doing a service (Could be wrong or right) because GMs' don't investigate it the way it should. What are you doing and your officers/leaders doing besides bashing someones analysis and providing no intelligent responses to further the validity, safety, and security of P99 Elves? Get off your high horse.

Source: I am smarter than you.

before you post your rebuttal : I am smarter-er than you.

I didn’t say it’s different, but bringing Lance Armstrong into this equation as if his eventual cheating determination somehow drops the hammer on Stunningly is low IQ.

We’ve raised plenty of competent concerns with the OPs video. I’m sorry if those got lost in an RNF shit show. Feel free to read my prior replies about OPs dubious impossible 150ms claims as well as the screenshot where the Kickenit is way ahead of Stunningly after several frames and syncs.

[karadin]

Dude ran into something along the way IIRC from the old videos that were posted in the thread months ago.

Both scripted characters react literally the same second of the spawn so it’s quite clearly automated. Anyone pretending it’s not is being purposefully ignorant

Stunningly didn’t run into anything within the first several frames of the video. See my screenshots from like page 2 or 3.

[Croco]

So you’re the only one that is allowed to spread falsehoods about cheating? Seems unfair.

No one has debunked OP's video. Give me that data and I will change my tune.

[karadin]

Stunningly didn’t run into anything within the first several frames of the video. See my screenshots from like page 2 or 3.

Here you go:

https://imgur.com/xefmrEE.ping

[karadin]

Imgur failure..

https://imgur.com/xefmrEE

[karadin]

No one has debunked OP's video. Give me that data and I will change my tune.

We’ve raised several issues.

[Croco]

We’ve raised several issues.

No one has used any actual math to prove even remotely that OP's calculations or assertions are wrong. Just a lot of posturing and hot air.

[karadin]

Here's the screenshot I'm referencing. You can see Kickenit way out in the lead, Stunningly way behind him, and the pack further back:

https://i.imgur.com/xefmrEE.png

[Chortles Snortles]

guys they like created a GUI interface using visual basic to track the dragons IP address and that’s why we lost
(LOL)

[Shac]

These type of posts make it clear why Project 1999 was given permission and allowed to operate.

Eventually all of the autism bubbles up to the point of overflow. Want to escape? Your vacation is paying Daybreak monthly, for a similar game except it's contains over a decade of QOL improvements.

All of Project 1999 is really for is for your limited attention spans to blow up, you like this game enough, enough to be part of a disconnected player base, and less than no communication from staff.

[karadin]

No one has used any actual math to prove even remotely that OP's calculations or assertions are wrong. Just a lot of posturing and hot air.

OP assumes reaction times under 150ms are humanly impossible. His words, not mine. It's a core tenet of his video. This is disputed by looking at the human reaction times on the benchmark site he references as well as by any number of studies.

[Ennewi]

Lance Armstrong was a cheater and therefore anyone accused of cheating from that point on is a cheater. I’m glad we’ve resolved this.

The tests were originally taken in 1999, before there was a test for EPO, he said. When new tests were conducted in 2005, “all six were flaming positive,” he said.

The point being, there was no way to prove it at the time...

[zati]

I didn’t say it’s different, but bringing Lance Armstrong into this equation as if his eventual cheating determination somehow drops the hammer on Stunningly is low IQ.

We’ve raised plenty of competent concerns with the OPs video. I’m sorry if those got lost in an RNF shit show. Feel free to read my prior replies about OPs dubious impossible 150ms claims as well as the screenshot where the Kickenit is way ahead of Stunningly after several frames and syncs.

The amount of competent concerns is rather lacking and staggering to say the very least. I didn't get lost in the RnF shit show. Its been mainly nothing but mis-direction or various jokes about the OP using his personal time to investigate the honesty and integrity of the server as a whole and the community that surrounds it; such that you do playing EQ all day long people are entitled to use their free time as they wish. Prior replies from you could be to search information DSM is missing therefore the server can move on whether the plausible evidence presented can be dismissed.

[karadin]

The point being, there was no way to prove it at the time...

Great, Lance Armstrong was once considered a legend and is now considered a cheater. What is the relevance here? Are you waiting for the day that science can finally catch cheaters? Cool.

[titanshub]

OP ignored basic computer science about data transfer over a network. So yes, he missed a big part in his analysis.

Please come back when you have the following:

1. Actual ping from all of the racers and the roller. This would first require proof the green bar at the top is accurate. If it isn't accurate, you would need to measure the ping of all players in a different manner.

2. Get the actual send/receive times for all of the racers and roller. Ping is round trip time, so it doesn't guarantee a 50/50 split between send and receive.

3. Determine how P99 prioritizes packets to be sent out. If message packets are given lower priority (and thus have more chance of being dropped), players could receive messages later than others due to this.

1. Ping time for stunningly is a decent approximation and based off of his actual ping. It could be demonstrated to be a wrong assertion but you have not done so. We don't need the ping of everyone you are just saying that to raise the burden of evidence beyond what is provided. It's not needed to make the analysis and missing it doesn't invalidate it.

2.we don't need to know the exact send receive time of every device you just don't seem to understand the technicals of the argument. 1/2 ping is a reasonable assumption. Ofc we don't have that knowledge and never will. If that was the level of information required to punish cheaters then no cheating would ever be able to be punished.

3. Packet prioritization delays on the server going to be negligible to the point of irrelevance. Packets will leave the server as fast as the server can give them to the network adapter and will leave the servers network adapter at wire speed. If there was a CPU or network backlog everyone playing would know it.

These are just excuses. We know when the data left the server. It's 1/2 the observers ping. Accounting for extraordinary circumstances still doesn't explain why the accused is consistently outside of the normal distribution of racers. It also doesn't explain the presense of so many world class 18 year old Olympian reaction times in a 20y/o elf sim. With that information and the ping of the racer we can infer very closely a best case reaction time of the human to produce the lowest time in relation to the observers recording.

You keep asking for perfect nobody can provide that. The bar is beyond reasonable doubt. If you have evidence the accusation is wrong provide it. I know you are not a bad guy. Can you not see how the actions of your guild mate might effect the rest of us who play here? Idc if stunningly wins 75% of the kael races, I'm in kittens. You seem to dismiss the reasonable claim on the grounds that you don't have to until there is a real claim. There can never be a claim that meets your threshold of evidence.

Like it or not the claim has been made. It could be disproved. I think most people are open to that possibility. This is a hard argument to make and there well could be an error or wrong assumption. However your time is better spent disproving what looks like a valid claim than trying to deny you need to defend from the accusation. We all play here and we are all damaged by cheaters. If he is innocent then it should be demonstrated via a rebuttal. So says everyone who plays here and isn't on the receiving end of these kael races.

[karadin]

The amount of competent concerns is rather lacking and staggering to say the very least. I didn't get lost in the RnF shit show. Its been mainly nothing but mis-direction or various jokes about the OP using his personal time to investigate the honesty and integrity of the server as a whole and the community that surrounds it; such that you do playing EQ all day long people are entitled to use their free time as they wish. Prior replies from you could be to search information DSM is missing therefore the server can move on whether the plausible evidence presented can be dismissed.

Respond to my recent image and OPs 150ms claim.

[titanshub]

OP assumes reaction times under 150ms are humanly impossible. His words, not mine. It's a core tenet of his video. This is disputed by looking at the human reaction times on the benchmark site he references as well as by any number of studies.


Have you actually used humanbenchmark.com? It's possible to anticipate the click. Outliers would be removed from the statistical distribution for this reason.

[karadin]

Have you actually used humanbenchmark.com? It's possible to anticipate the click. Outliers would be removed from the statistical distribution for this reason.

Many times and I have gotten under 150 without jumping the gun. Additionally there are studies out there that show reaction times even under 100ms are possible.

[Ennewi]

Great, Lance Armstrong was once considered a legend and is now considered a cheater. What is the relevance here? Are you waiting for the day that science can finally catch cheaters? Cool.

Making note of similarities in behavior and circumstances, in the event that it is true, until the thread reaches this moment...

https://i.imgur.com/UAE0GtS.gif

[cd288]

We’ve raised several issues.

Lol I literally am loling right now. Vanquish outed themselves by accident months ago and now are in this thread trying to spin it. Can’t make this shit up! Lol

[karadin]

Lol I literally am loling right now. Vanquish outed themselves by accident months ago and now are in this thread trying to spin it. Can’t make this shit up! Lol

“Outed themselves.”

Let’s see this bombshell you are sitting on.

[Ennewi]

https://i.imgur.com/UAE0GtS.gif

He's probably referring to Sanornik.

[karadin]

Making note of similarities in behavior and circumstances, in the event that it is true, until the thread reaches this moment...

https://i.imgur.com/UAE0GtS.gif

So basically bringing up something irrelevant right now to make you feel good about yourself. Keep forgetting this is RNF.
Perfect place for facts.

[Plaguu~]

All of Project 1999 is really for is for your limited attention spans to blow up, you like this game enough, enough to be part of a disconnected player base, and less than no communication from staff.

Can you blame the staff for lack of communication though? Staff hates the players, over 10 years of listening to all this bullshit. What is strange though is their rulesets seem to favor the worst people on this server.

End these stupid competitive EQ races, make the game feel more classic. They've already done so many non-classic changes to help the game "feel" more classic why not include high end raiding.

[Ennewi]

So basically bringing up something irrelevant right now to make you feel good about yourself. Keep forgetting this is RNF.
Perfect place for facts.

In D&D asking your group to roll a perception check is a somewhat weird thing to do. It's saying that there might be something to notice at a certain point in time and if the group fails, they notice nothing of importance but are alerted to something they could have noticed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

People don't underatand the basic networking of games unfortunately. If the difference is 100ms, and there is no way to track the cheating via conventional methods, your out of luck for banning people. There is no easy way to tell the difference unless you have all the data.

I am not sure what your proposed solution is, other than to ban people if they are too fast, even if they were actually that fast.

Even if you allowed everyone to cheat in the same way, people who live closest to the server would still win.

[Samoht]

Like it or not the claim has been made. It could be disproved. I think most people are open to that possibility. This is a hard argument to make and there well could be an error or wrong assumption. However your time is better spent disproving what looks like a valid claim than trying to deny you need to defend from the accusation. We all play here and we are all damaged by cheaters. If he is innocent then it should be demonstrated via a rebuttal. So says everyone who plays here and isn't on the receiving end of these kael races.

Only a small subset of the posters here agree that your claim is valid. The rest of us agree that there's no proof in the video. There's some made up equations. There's a poorly made connection to a website that's testing something else. And there's Riot posters just blindly treating the video as gospel because they WANT to believe.

Yall wanted to prove that Vanquish was cheating. You made up numbers and found a website that shows some people can click on colors faster than others. You cheated yourselves to prove it was possible, but have no proof that anybody else is cheating.

And you're blocking out any criticism that shows the flaws in your study.

Nice.

[zati]

Respond to my recent image and OPs 150ms claim.

Sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1yIyMFZLX8 - Image you are referring to

Givincer maintained his starting position and can be seen at the end of the video moving dead last. If he wasn't in the video at all nothing would have changed.

Stunningly did not - his movements were registered as a correct response and maintained his impeccable jump off the line versus an admittingly scripted racer(to prove a point)

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/iksbbi/so_apparently_150ms_is_the_average_reaction_time/

You yourself can scroll down the comments of various users with high end PC's/Monitors. Not one of em get under 150ms(In OPs vid Kickenit was at 95ms? and Stunningly 90-100ms in multiple races).

Ya can also just google "Whats the fastest human response time" too.

[Twochain]

So..


This is the official Riot is dead thread. GG Gents, you lasted a year and 4? months without Furoar.

I hope they combine green and blue soon, can't wait to compete against seal team.

[zati]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLS-wyZ-mCI - Pro CS:GO players using the humanbench mark.

[karadin]

Sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1yIyMFZLX8 - Image you are referring to

Givincer maintained his starting position and can be seen at the end of the video moving dead last. If he wasn't in the video at all nothing would have changed.

Stunningly did not - his movements were registered as a correct response and maintained his impeccable jump off the line versus an admittingly scripted racer(to prove a point)

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/iksbbi/so_apparently_150ms_is_the_average_reaction_time/

You yourself can scroll down the comments of various users with high end PC's/Monitors. Not one of em get under 150ms(In OPs vid Kickenit was at 95ms? and Stunningly 90-100ms in multiple races).

Ya can also just google "Whats the fastest human response time" too.

Your explanation of Givincer doesn’t help your case. Why is it that Givincer rubber banding back to a reasonable position passes muster for you but Stunningly’s rubber band does not. Look at the screenshot. Stunningly is wayyyyy behind Kickenit and only a bit ahead of the pack. Kickenit didn’t gain that much space within a few frames on a straightaway without having a significantly better jump than Stunningly.

As for the ms reaction times, based on the rubberbanding noted above we can’t trust the frame OP used to make his determination. Clearly there are some serious interpolation issues if he’s neck and neck in the first few frames and then 150+ms behind Kickenit after both players get a sync.

[titanshub]

Only a small subset of the posters here agree that your claim is valid. The rest of us agree that there's no proof in the video. There's some made up equations. There's a poorly made connection to a website that's testing something else. And there's Riot posters just blindly treating the video as gospel because they WANT to believe.

Yall wanted to prove that Vanquish was cheating. You made up numbers and found a website that shows some people can click on colors faster than others. You cheated yourselves to prove it was possible, but have no proof that anybody else is cheating.

And you're blocking out any criticism that shows the flaws in your study.

Nice.

I did not do any of the things you have accused me of lol. I do want to see a rebuttal to the claims because I find them convincing. None of your hand waving and denial has eased my concerns but I am open to you stopping the PR junk and providing some actual evidence to why the methodology is incorrect. Provide a counter example. I think there are lots of places that this can be done, if he is really innocent it shouldn't be that difficult.

Your secret evidence means anything to anyone. Put up or shut up. Provide something tangible (besides nuh-uh) and valid and I'll certainly do the latter.

[Samoht]

I did not do any of the things you have accused me of lol. I do want to see a rebuttal to the claims because I find them convincing. None of your hand waving and denial has eased my concerns but I am open to you stopping the PR junk and providing some actual evidence to why the methodology is incorrect. Provide a counter example. I think there are lots of places that this can be done, if he is really innocent it shouldn't be that difficult.

I'ts already been done, but you've got your fingers in your ears singing LA LA LA LA LA

Your secret evidence means anything to anyone. Put up or shut up. Provide something tangible (besides nuh-uh) and valid and I'll certainly do the latter.

If you can't figure out how to get good start times, accuse them of cheating until they tell you how to get good start times. Interesting strategy. No amount of baiting is going to get the solution out of me, though.

This doesn't make your video evidence scientific, though, since we won't tell you how to do it. It just makes you desperate.

[titanshub]

Your explanation of Givincer doesn’t help your case. Why is it that Givincer rubber banding back to a reasonable position passes muster for you but Stunningly’s rubber band does not. Look at the screenshot. Stunningly is wayyyyy behind Kickenit and only a bit ahead of the pack. Kickenit didn’t gain that much space within a few frames on a straightaway without having a significantly better jump than Stunningly.

As for the ms reaction times, based on the rubberbanding noted above we can’t trust the frame OP used to make his determination. Clearly there are some serious interpolation issues if he’s neck and neck in the first few frames and then 150+ms behind Kickenit after both players get a sync.

I can't keep up with all this, can you provide the video of stunningly rubber banding? I don't see it in the original clip from Runyan?

[titanshub]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLS-wyZ-mCI - Pro CS:GO players using the humanbench mark.

lol under appreciated comment/video

[cd288]

“Outed themselves.”

Let’s see this bombshell you are sitting on.

Were you not around months ago when they tried to post it as evidence of riot cheating and then tried to walk it back super hard once they realized that riot had forewarned the staff that they would script in order to prove vanquish had been scripting?

Literally most embarrassing thing I’ve seen happen to a guild in a long time, but happy it happened to vanquish because any guild that has Furoar or Detoxx in it is a joke lol

[zati]

Your explanation of Givincer doesn’t help your case. Why is it that Givincer rubber banding back to a reasonable position passes muster for you but Stunningly’s rubber band does not. Look at the screenshot. Stunningly is wayyyyy behind Kickenit and only a bit ahead of the pack. Kickenit didn’t gain that much space within a few frames on a straightaway without having a significantly better jump than Stunningly.

As for the ms reaction times, based on the rubberbanding noted above we can’t trust the frame OP used to make his determination. Clearly there are some serious interpolation issues if he’s neck and neck in the first few frames and then 150+ms behind Kickenit after both players get a sync.

It's not even a "case" that needs to be solved, but I will. Watched it so many times now and here's my real conclusion about Givincer's "rubberbanding".

1. He's not even on the line with racers which tells me that he hit "Forward" to move into position as the rolls were going then let go the second the roll was 900+ he started moving again. (That's why it shows him standstill in the video and is deadlast in the race) His last input was letting go of his forward button.

2. If he was serious about racing he'd have been already on the line stacked where stunningly and all the other known racers stand. Where the snow meets the grass.

3. Again if he wasn't even in the race his rubberbanding doesn't affect the jump off the first 2 players did which are not really possible by humans ? or a Pro gamer that plays CS:GO competitively

[PlsNoBan]

Ignoring the fact that you’re not qualified to say what the game was designed to be, it has to be competitive because that is what the creators of p99 have said it must be. They have made it very clear that they are completely against rotations and there are leaked discord logs of them lambasting their GMs for implementing them in the past. I would be happy to link those for you.

Don't need to be a rocket scientist to realize this was never the intention for the game. The creators of P99 are on record (ad nauseam) as saying their intention is to recreate EQ as it was in 1999 as closely as possible. P99 is NOTHING like 1999 Everquest in a wide variety of ways.


P.S. There are options besides FTE and Rotation. Being against rotation =/= it must be competitive.

P.S.S. It's extremely easy to cheat in the way OP is describing. Whether or not you can prove Stunningly (or anyone else) did it or not doesn't matter. The fact that it can be done easily without being detected should be enough to conclude that a different system should be used.

[Endorra]

This thread is why I come back to RNF even though I haven't logged into p99 in forever. Rarely does this forum produce anything worthwhile, but every now and then it's the 20+ page Olympics of Autism in here. Delicious.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What is the proposed solution? I have nothing againt Spacepope or anybody else concerned about cheating. I want this server to be free of cheaters, boxers, and RMTers too. And I am not posting here because I am trying to defend Vanquish. If cheaters are cheating, they should be punished.

But if the difference between a cheater and a non cheater is 150ms, I am not sure how we can check for that if the cheater isn't doing something obvious like spoofing their packets. It is 100% possible that a person with an above average reaction time plays on P99, who is also living close to the servers.

Unfortunately with online games 150ms delays can happen, packet drops can happen, etc. There needs to be clear evidence of cheating for GMs to act. And even if the rules allowed for people to use the same program to make things fair, you would still lose to lag, proximity to the server, packet drops, etc.

[Plaguu~]

Jeez, Im like Superman! I wish this was true

Maybe a video of yourself using https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime would help.

Lets see them 100ms reaction times.

[Profyx]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/6pJNYBYSMFod2/200.webp?cid=ecf05e4780b2o5xffotlhjx959fblfwhrnij8 h8gz6zixpwg&rid=200.webp&ct=g

[Profyx]

sad :( I dont know how to post gifs

[twill86]

10 seconds before the rolls begin the designated roller rolls a 0-9. That determines what starts the race.

If they roll a 0 race starts 0-99, if he rolls a 1 it starts 100-199, etc.

This is my solution.

[Croco]

10 seconds before the rolls begin the designated roller rolls a 0-9. That determines what starts the race.

If they roll a 0 race starts 0-99, if he rolls a 1 it starts 100-199, etc.

This is my solution.

Changing the number that the script fires on is incredibly easy and can be done in a matter of seconds. This is not a valid solution sadly.

[zati]

What is the proposed solution? I have nothing againt Spacepope or anybody else concerned about cheating. I want this server to be free of cheaters, boxers, and RMTers too. And I am not posting here because I am trying to defend Vanquish. If cheaters are cheating, they should be punished.

But if the difference between a cheater and a non cheater is 150ms, I am not sure how we can check for that if the cheater isn't doing something obvious like spoofing their packets. It is 100% possible that a person with an above average reaction time plays on P99, who is also living close to the servers.

Unfortunately with online games 150ms delays can happen, packet drops can happen, etc. There needs to be clear evidence of cheating for GMs to act. And even if the rules allowed for people to use the same program to make things fair, you would still lose to lag, proximity to the server, packet drops, etc.

I don't raid either and gain nothing from it whether new "rules" get implemented or mechanics are changed but I tell ya this knowing scripts can be ran makes the server "less worthy" in my point of view. Rotations are even worse. Only a Dev can make the solution which will be very unclassic anyhow and they've already coded it. Shadow step the mob on spawn entirely in random locations like badain then let it path to it's normal spawn point..kind of makes it fair because it's like an Egg hunt and you'll need trackers in every inch of Kael to spot it and you can't optimize a path towards it so even using a script would never work.. Or a straight up /random for Statue,Dain.. /shrug

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't raid either and gain nothing from it whether new "rules" get implemented or mechanics are changed but I tell ya this knowing scripts can be ran makes the server "less worthy" in my point of view. Rotations are even worse. Only a Dev can make the solution which will be very unclassic anyhow and they've already coded it. Shadow step the mob on spawn entirely in random locations like badain then let it path to it's normal spawn point..kind of makes it fair because it's like an Egg hunt and you'll need trackers in every inch of Kael to spot it and you can't optimize a path towards it so even using a script would never work.. Or a straight up /random for Statue,Dain.. /shrug

Oh I agree, I am not condoning cheaters. I prefer competition to be fair. My main problem is OP simply hasn't brought good evidence, or good solutions hehe. A /random for the mob would be a pseudo-rotation, so I wouldn't want that, and it sounds like you don't want rotations either. The shadowstep idea is essentially the same as a /random, as the server controls the /random roll as well as the random new location you teleport to. That wouldn't be done client-side.

The only reasonable solution I can think of is simply allowing everybody to use these kinds of scripts for races. As people stated previously in this thread, the initial start off the line isn't the only factor. If you don't practice the most efficient path to the mob, you will still lose. If everybody is using the same script it is "fair", but people with lower ping will still trigger their scripts faster, so there is no real solution to that problem.

[Ghost of Starman]

This thread is why I come back to RNF even though I haven't logged into p99 in forever. Rarely does this forum produce anything worthwhile, but every now and then it's the 20+ page Olympics of Autism in here. Delicious.

I come to RnF whenever I get that itch to start playing again so that I can remind myself why I quit, it really does wonders, like driving past a homeless encampment to remind yourself why you stopped using drugs.

[Naethyn]

Disable game logs. Remove bind sight from raid zones.

[arkile]

the reaction test site is fun.. best i can do is 170ms or so

[Tunabros]

you never see this stuff happen on green

[Akg49]

CRAWL BITCHES, this is RPG not Mario Kart

[Bardp1999]

https://i.imgur.com/UGRaCn5.jpg

[Profyx]

Maybe a video of yourself using https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime would help.

Lets see them 100ms reaction times.

No way I can do 100ms. I did get under 150 a couple times tho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E44mZUcTsxo

I dont know why visual reaction time is even being discussed. If you're looking at a text window when a roll is happening you're already going to lose.

[Scalem]

you never see this stuff happen on green

That would require their to actually be competition on green.

[wwoneo]

GM's not commenting on the speculation of cheating will eliminate any perceived deterrent/penalization for cheating and lead to more cheating in the future. Eventually, it will get out of hand something will be done.

[ArbiterBlixen]

No way I can do 100ms. I did get under 150 a couple times tho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E44mZUcTsxo

I dont know why visual reaction time is even being discussed. If you're looking at a text window when a roll is happening you're already going to lose.

Those are solid times for a visual reaction test. Sound reaction would be faster by a decent amount too.

[Caball]

No way I can do 100ms. I did get under 150 a couple times tho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E44mZUcTsxo

I dont know why visual reaction time is even being discussed. If you're looking at a text window when a roll is happening you're already going to lose.

What should people be doing besides looking stunningly, sitting back and letting their script run!?! #checkmate

[MaCtastic]

@OP, spin up a test server in a datacenter in Chicago. Use that publicly available python script that was distributed to do exactly what Furoar and stunningly are accused of doing here. Test them against someone you know isn’t cheating on that test server. Aggregate those results and send it back to sahmot so he can peer review it.

[Kaitainz]

No way I can do 100ms. I did get under 150 a couple times tho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E44mZUcTsxo

I dont know why visual reaction time is even being discussed. If you're looking at a text window when a roll is happening you're already going to lose.

Stunningly, you’re obviously either playing dumb or really don’t understand. Even a GINA trigger to your ear, that’s tells your brain to go, that tells you to press your finger takes time. You pressing the mouse button when your eye sees the screen go red to green us similar stimulus and input that takes time. No one’s trying to read the 909+ roll, we all have Gina triggers.

Are you really this dense or are you playin g stupid?? E whiting minds want to know.