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Netherzul
07-28-2011, 05:20 PM
Greetings P99.

Today, while at work, spacing off staring at my computer screen, I began to think back right as Velious was coming to a close and Luclin was near launch. I was trying to remember (me, as a Shaman) what other classes did specifically.

I would like to break down (and I'll give credit to another post I found on google somewhere) each class based on how they were near the end of Velious.

Example:

Cleric: During this ERA of EQ, the Cleric had mastered the CH chain. Rarely did any other heals get used by a Cleric.

Paladin: ??

Rogue: With primal weapons and epics, Rogues were uncontested, the best dps IN EQ.

Druid: Decent support healers, kings of nothing. Their HP buffs were still sub-par to Clerics (or were they??).

Warrior: Best tanks, due to skillcaps.

Monk: Took a hefty tanking nerf in Velious. Still a high DPS class and great pullers.

Shadowknights: ??

Enchanters: Velious was pure hell for Enchanters with the HIGH MR of bosses and raid encounters. Can't remember how this was handled near the end of Velious.

Shamans: Disease based slow FTW. King of buffers with Primal Avatar.

Wizards: Lore spells allowed them to be a favorite to raid leaders with considerable raid damage. Wizards are really vague to me tbh because I don't recall really having any memorable ones around at the time.

Necromancers: No serious raid force ran without at least 3. Necros allowed the CH chains to function longer. Something tells me that during this point in EQ, Necros were above Monks and other DPS classes (obviously below a Rogue) due to the much larger health pool of bosses, allowing them to stack 5 dots (in my raid force, ONE of our Necros who did nothing but DPS was actually above the Rogue in DPS iirc). How were resists on bosses for Necros during this state of Everquest?

Magicians: Epic pet Magicians were the only viable ones during this era (that's about all I remember).

Ranger: ??

Bard: Resist songs were KING in Velious. Every raid wished they had 5.



Please, add your memories of Velious class balance. I know some of my memories may be incorrect, but this was many years ago.

Kassel
07-28-2011, 05:25 PM
I thought the monk nerf was the first month of SoL

freakyuno
07-28-2011, 05:28 PM
Monks actually still did quite a bit of tanking in velious, their tanking (avoidance nerfs) were later in luclin, then the real killer during PoP.

Necro's during velious hardly had anything resisted. Most stuff had high mr, but low disease, fire, and poison, which was easily made lower through debuffs. Their dots didnt scale very well on bosses though and their DPS took a huge dip during the velious era. Subsequently in Luclin they had a fair number of AA's to make their DoT's hit harder, and tick longer. I dont remember when critical DoT chances came into play though, but I dont think it was Velious.

Shadowknights and Paladins were turned into off-tanks in my guild during this era, having lower mitigation, less weapon choices, and less armor choices made them a sub-par main tank, but they were great off tanks because they could snap agro.

Rangers - Meh...still a joke.

Ronas
07-28-2011, 06:02 PM
Mag were MOD Factory and COTHers more then doing the pet sending thing.

Calabee
07-28-2011, 06:32 PM
as a bard during velious i mass exploited Western Waste like there is no tommorow.

Im looking forward to getting my account banned for trying to repeat said bug in velious :p (/sarcasm off)

greatdane
07-28-2011, 06:40 PM
Warriors: the "king of tanking" thing had very little to do with the fact that warriors have slightly better tanking skills and HP. There's not much of a difference stat-wise between a warrior and a knight in equivalent gear. It all boiled down to the defensive discipline which was absolutely necessary for any kind of raiding that you didn't vastly out-gear. Velious brings mobs like AoW and Vindi that can hit for thousands per round and/or are unslowable, and you just couldn't tank that without warrior discs. There were mobs that hybrids could never tank, and to tank even the easier raid targets required the hybrid to be far beyond it in gear.

Paladins/shadowknights: since Velious is almost purely an endgame expansion and the hybrid tanks only shine while leveling, they lose much of their appeal and serve mostly as off-tanks for the uncommon occasions where this is necessary. Not exactly useless like druids, but with an endgame-centric min-maxer playerbase like ours and the likelihood that Velious will be the final frontier for a very long time, it doesn't seem like knights will be in very high demand. They'd still be the best non-raid tanks due to their easy aggro, but I imagine most people will be done leveling by then.

Rangers: this class will get progressively stronger with each of the first half-dozen expansions, but they don't become truly good until Luclin. In Velious, rangers are alright DPS with some alright utility, and their saving grace is the weaponshield discipline which can be used to great effect on raids. Due to its very long duration, a ranger would aggro the mob and pop the disc, tanking it safely for 18 seconds while the main tank generates as much aggro as he can manage in that time. You then either let the ranger die when the duration runs out or the warrior does his best to take aggro just before it's too late. Gives the warrior a nice headstart on aggro because nobody had to heal anybody or slow the mob for the duration of weaponshield. This is only crucial for progression raiding, you don't need to do it once you have a firm grasp on whatever content it is you've reached.

Clerics: required for the CH chain and HP buffs. Their lesser heals were useful in non-raid situations, but for raids, your place was in the chain and you simply didn't have room to do other things. As with anything else, this could change if your raid was so far beyond the content that it was trivial, so it doesn't bear mentioning.

Druids: always a pretty pitiful class for any high-end gameplay. I'm pretty sure Circle of Seasons is a Luclin or PoP spell, and Circle of Summer/Winter were barely better than Resist Fire/Cold. Glades is a decent buff and druids could patch-heal well enough, but it was never required and a shaman could do just as well while providing much more valuable buffs/debuffs. Throughout the entire early history of EQ, this class has no real role and is more of a convenient casual player class.

Shaman: as before and after, shamans were a core class in Velious. You needed them for slows, Malo and stat buffs. Well, the latter becomes irrelevant in the very endgame when all classes max all their stats through gear alone, but only one guild will ever get there and it'll take a long time. Probably the strongest single class to have in a non-raid group at 60, as well as godlike soloers with the right gear. Widely regarded as overpowered by that point in time.

Enchanters: the buffs were necessary, but enchanters never had very much to do during the actual fights. There were few if any encounters that had adds you couldn't clear before engaging, and you didn't have to do any crowd control once you were done with the trash.

Magicians: pretty weak by then, lacking spells that can land reliably on raid targets. Pets don't get better at all from Kunark to Velious, and while magicians retain a purpose with modrods and CotH, they're not exactly a well-defined class.

Necromancers: they can land spells on raid mobs and have all the same group utility that made them useful in Original/Kunark, but they don't really scale up at all from Kunark to Velious (like most casters, unimpressive itemization and a lack of meaningful growth between these two expansions is kind of a problem). They don't get much worse in Velious, but they don't get better, either. Still great soloers, still not particularly critical for raiding, especially if you don't wipe much.

Wizards: the only nuker class that really thrives, and still I wouldn't call them great. Lure spells will land on raid mobs, but they have horrible mana efficiency and wizards bring literally nothing but damage. Melee still out-shines them, raid mobs get so many HP that you can't burn them down, and there isn't enough flowing thought gear in the game until Luclin/PoP for a wizard to really be able to provide sustained damage throughout the entire fight. There were still places where coordinated burst damage has value, and it's nice to avoid AoEs, but casters weren't truly on par with melee until AAs.

Rogues: best DPS, though if you can't get one of the very high-end daggers from Vulak, Tunare etc., you don't actually get much better between Kunark and Velious. Goes to show how insane of a boost 51-60 and Ragebringer was for rogues. You should have max str/dex without Avatar anyway.

Monks: insane class until the nerf hits, which isn't until Luclin/PoP. The vast amounts of 100HP/20+AC items in Velious makes this class absurdly strong, able to tank much better than a DPS class should while doing great DPS and retaining the critical role of best puller. They lose all of that in later expansions which probably made Furor jizz his pants, but in Velious, raid-geared monks are just too good.

Bards: still a fine class, and crucial on raids for their resist songs, but many of their songs lose value as people easily hit caps with the wide variety of 41% haste items and +20ish stats/resist gear in Velious. I personally think this class goes downhill after Kunark and descends from superb to good. It's only because songs are limited to your group that they don't end up at the enchanter status of "just need one or two for the buffs". They also don't benefit much from gear, lacking the incentive to optimize melee DPS and having no use for the flowing thought items that appear in Velious. Can do silly things solo, but a lot of mobs start summoning by then.

Calabee
07-28-2011, 07:01 PM
...ps

and having no use for the flowing thought items that appear in Velious

bards way of regening mana is only thru FT pre luclin, not sure where that came from

greatdane
07-28-2011, 07:06 PM
You're right about that. I guess what I should say is that there isn't much melee gear with flowing thought until later expansions, and a raiding bard has little use for it anyway. The point was that they don't have much reason to focus on gear during Velious because they stop benefitting from it to any meaningful extent, and that's kinda dull in an expansion that's almost all about the gear.

Calabee
07-28-2011, 07:09 PM
bards mana regen really made sense when fading memories came out :p

dusk883
07-28-2011, 07:11 PM
I quit the game at the end of Velious and don't remember many details but as a Chanter I remember I either really sucked bc I went from "I'm on top of the world" to "I suck". Of course, i only wore MR gear so that might have been an issue.

As for Rangers, I think they were happy for the first time ever?

Ennoia
07-28-2011, 07:34 PM
Greetings P99.

Today, while at work, spacing off staring at my computer screen, I began to think back right as Velious was coming to a close and Luclin was near launch. I was trying to remember (me, as a Shaman) what other classes did specifically.

I would like to break down (and I'll give credit to another post I found on google somewhere) each class based on how they were near the end of Velious.

Example:

Cleric: During this ERA of EQ, the Cleric had mastered the CH chain. Rarely did any other heals get used by a Cleric.

Paladin: ??

Rogue: With primal weapons and epics, Rogues were uncontested, the best dps IN EQ.

Druid: Decent support healers, kings of nothing. Their HP buffs were still sub-par to Clerics (or were they??).

Warrior: Best tanks, due to skillcaps.

Monk: Took a hefty tanking nerf in Velious. Still a high DPS class and great pullers.

Shadowknights: ??

Enchanters: Velious was pure hell for Enchanters with the HIGH MR of bosses and raid encounters. Can't remember how this was handled near the end of Velious.

Shamans: Disease based slow FTW. King of buffers with Primal Avatar.

Wizards: Lore spells allowed them to be a favorite to raid leaders with considerable raid damage. Wizards are really vague to me tbh because I don't recall really having any memorable ones around at the time.

Necromancers: No serious raid force ran without at least 3. Necros allowed the CH chains to function longer. Something tells me that during this point in EQ, Necros were above Monks and other DPS classes (obviously below a Rogue) due to the much larger health pool of bosses, allowing them to stack 5 dots (in my raid force, ONE of our Necros who did nothing but DPS was actually above the Rogue in DPS iirc). How were resists on bosses for Necros during this state of Everquest?

Magicians: Epic pet Magicians were the only viable ones during this era (that's about all I remember).

Ranger: ??

Bard: Resist songs were KING in Velious. Every raid wished they had 5.



Please, add your memories of Velious class balance. I know some of my memories may be incorrect, but this was many years ago.

Paladins didn't really do anything in Velious. Almost all of the mobs were immune to stuns, and their patch healing ability was sub-par at best.

Shadowknights did everything from pull to off-tank to fear-kiting certain adds.

Rangers...well no one really knows what Rangers do besides die...though I remember once a Ranger tanked the last... 10%? of AoW. Slayback was a fucking badass.

baub
07-28-2011, 07:40 PM
paladin gets like a 500pt group heal in velious dont they? aint too bad~

Felwithemagi
07-28-2011, 07:51 PM
Mages made modrods, and that's it. We did land spells, after mala/malosinia was applied. And CoTH. A couple of raids all I did was make modrod the entire time and I never raided with that group again. But I think soon after that they nerfed it.

SirDayblaze
07-28-2011, 07:58 PM
tbh, i remember wanting to be a war at the end of velious...yet i rolled a pally here again...o.O

Heebee
07-28-2011, 08:08 PM
paladin gets like a 500pt group heal in velious dont they? aint too bad~

Wave of Healing:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1455

Celestial Cleansing:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1283

From my experience, both of these are great for off-healing in raids like NToV.

Slave
07-28-2011, 08:33 PM
Bravo Greatdane, very well done. I enjoyed and agreed with almost everything in your treatise.

Phallax
07-28-2011, 08:47 PM
Wave of Healing:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1455

Celestial Cleansing:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1283

From my experience, both of these are great for off-healing in raids like NToV.

Paladins are great support in Velious imo

Heebee
07-28-2011, 09:16 PM
Paladins are great support in Velious imo

This ^^

Xanthias
07-28-2011, 09:18 PM
As for Rangers, I think they were happy for the first time ever?

Was a start, though Luclin is where we shined especially with Endless Quiver and Trueshot Disc

Nuggie
07-29-2011, 01:20 AM
I seem to recall rangers tanking some raid mobs during warrior switches with weaponshield. No?

weren't paladins bitching about getting out dps'd by clerics at some point? maybe that was luclin...

Time to roll a monk.

Arrisard
07-29-2011, 01:35 AM
weren't paladins bitching about getting out dps'd by clerics at some point? maybe that was luclin..



That was with that ridiculous summoned hammer IIRC, don't remember when that was exactly.

Arkanjil
07-29-2011, 01:43 AM
Think that was a Luclin or PoP spell....badass hammer hehe.

Wildas
07-29-2011, 02:10 AM
At the end of velious was the great melee patch, which fixed hybrids for most part.

Monks became insane with top end gear, rivaling warriors in pure non defensive tanking due to the abundance of high ac/hp all/all or all melee items in ntov/kael (60 ac legs anyone?). Also put out dps just behind rogues.

Enchanters didn't do shit but buff and tash due to insane mr and mez/stun immunity on high end mobs, combined with mobs being very high level in general. They did kick ass in fights in kael tho.

Druids improve with the addition of nature's touch, and debuffs worth putting on mobs, but they're still probably the weakest raiding class. Also protection of the glades had mana regen and did stack w/ marzin's mark to give more hp/mana than aegolism.

Magicians could land spells after debuffs but it wasn't but a dent in the hp of a several hundred thousand hp mob, pets couldn't survive AEs well. So basically they made mod rods. Epic pet was a beast tank in single groups (and also pets could hold aggro over melee until the very end of velious)

Necros could land a number of their -resist check dots, but stacking issues prevented more than 1 from doing much dps. Additionally dots are low dps compared to melee damage, especially with the low AC of velious mobs and the lack of funeral pyre of kelador.

Bards were bards.

Shaman were awesome, and high end gear directly benefited their soloing of hard mobs.

Wizards were ok dps with the addition of bane spells, however they usually couldn't put out nearly as much as a rogue/monk on raid bosses.

Rangers had weapon shield, and a lot of their damage table/skill cap problems put behind them. Became a very solid, if average class at this point in time.

Paladins basically only had AE heal going for them, and it had a long recast, minorly helpful in dps groups when you lacked clerics. They improved a lot in this department with, healing wave of prexus I think it was, during luclin.

Sks were solid as offtanks/pullers. Didn't have all that much else going for them. But similar to paladins could put out mediocre damage without needing a ton of healing on bosses.

Warriors had... defensive. Although with top end gear I recall warriors really outclassing paladins and sks in group tanking (although honestly it was a toss up vs monks).

Rogue dps was still top notch, but not the complete devastation it was over other classes at the end of kunark due to no increase in weapon damage for BS. Rogues went from 15/25 and 14/23 to 15/19 and 14/18. While monks went from 9/16 and 17/28 to 16/19 and 15/18.

Clerics were as useful as always, and with the melee proc hammer could put out some decent dps.

Vladesch
07-29-2011, 06:08 AM
I'd say that the end of velious was the end of the golden age for enchanters.
With luclin came kei, and many groups would simply opt for another dps and heal through the occasional adds with all the extra mana.
Kinda of annoying when youre sitting around LFG and the only tells you get are to come KEI some group. (which I felt was fair enough to refuse if they intended to leave me sitting LFG)

Thou later expansions made it even worse. POP was ok for a while but OOW really killed it for many with bread and butter spells requiring raids to get.

I can recall not being able to get my high level mez, not because we couldnt kill the mob, but because it was never up.
Oh, and IIRC another zone it dropped as a rare drop off common mobs really required you to already have the spell to get a group. Great thinking SOE!
(been 7 years so my recollection is a little hazy)

Rais
07-29-2011, 08:48 AM
It's a eye opener hearing peoples experiences and what they did. Necro on raids? We maybe had 2. If you needed a herd of necros for ch chains in velious,you were doing something wrong.

Wizards in Velious were kings. TOV,king tormax ,Yeli, top damage dealers. Mod rods and 2 Necro man's pumpers helped our wizards be a wrecking crew. Rogues were next followed by our 1 ranger with trueshot, then followed by monks. Very rarely did a melee dps group out do wizards.

This held true all the way to shadows of luclin.

Mages, necros,paladin, shadowknight, rangers and never numbered more than 2 on our raids.

Nytewind TP
07-29-2011, 09:22 AM
I thought the monk nerf was the first month of SoL

I thought this as well. Monks were nerfed due to the fact they were pretty damn strong during Velious. Monks tanked well back then.

Nytewind TP
07-29-2011, 09:27 AM
I'd say that the end of velious was the end of the golden age for enchanters.
With luclin came kei, and many groups would simply opt for another dps and heal through the occasional adds with all the extra mana.
Kinda of annoying when youre sitting around LFG and the only tells you get are to come KEI some group. (which I felt was fair enough to refuse if they intended to leave me sitting LFG)

That is one thing I'll miss about SoL. KEI was always wanted and I loved MGB :) Luclin had it's things that a lot of people didn't like, but every expanison has a few things that were just fun & cool.

Tiggles
07-29-2011, 09:34 AM
I hope we get luclin and pop

Ele
07-29-2011, 10:00 AM
I hope we get luclin and pop

Not sure if srs

Atmas
07-29-2011, 10:00 AM
I hope we get luclin and pop

Agreed. I would be fine with nothing else after that though.

I think a lot of people don't like Luclin but like AAs.

Xxtayce
07-29-2011, 10:18 AM
I'm hoping we stop at Velious. It's after that when everything got crazy non-classic.

Messianic
07-29-2011, 10:28 AM
I hope we get luclin and pop

I'm hoping we stop at Velious. It's after that when everything got crazy non-classic.

Eh, I hope we go through Luclin/PoP, maybe with a few slight changes. I actually really enjoyed many of the Luclin zones for the short time I played in them.

AA's were a *good* idea that was implemented horribly. WoW's talent system was a better evolution of that idea because it allowed more customization of the character - and despite many complaints in WoW, there were always a number of competitive PvP and PvE builds within the same class (or small variants in point choice that made a huge difference), not just one or two.

The devs really didn't understand or care about the ramifications of creating a second tier of grinding on top of the first. The talent system made people economize and compare values, not just grind for the best AA's first, grind for all other AA's next, etc...But that point has been belabored to death on these forums.

Regardless, i'd rather repeat some of the mistakes made in the past instead of completely stopping at Velious.

Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin
07-29-2011, 10:38 AM
I respectfully disagree, Messianic.

I would not enjoy seeing Luclin/PoP content get implemented. I can understand it from a nostalgic point of view, but so much changed with Luclin and PoP that Velious and Kunark, which were mysterious and awesome, became novelties.

Dantes
07-29-2011, 11:06 AM
It will stop at Velious if you quit playing once they release a further expansion. Duh.

Nytewind TP
07-29-2011, 11:13 AM
Plus SoL kills EC tunnel :( fail lol

greatdane
07-29-2011, 11:55 AM
As long as they give us plenty of time to wear Velious thin, I don't mind in the least if they eventually proceed into the next expansions. A time will come when we're sick of Velious, probably two or three years after the content has first been cleared, and then it'll be a choice between continuing the server despite its initial intentions or letting it die. We're already getting to the point where most people who missed the classic experience and were ever likely to care about an emu server have already played here. Sooner or later we'll stop getting new players at any meaningful rate while more and more players will quit once they've had their fill. If this server is stuck at Velious in 2015, it'll be with a skeleton playerbase. Who honestly wants to play Velious for several years? Most of you will have finished playing here by then, in which case you shouldn't care either way, but further expansions might get you to come back just to see if it's fun again. The game wasn't entirely shit until after PoP, and Luclin/PoP does have some excellent raid content.

Zuranthium
07-29-2011, 02:00 PM
Wizards in Velious were kings. TOV,king tormax ,Yeli, top damage dealers. Mod rods and 2 Necro man's pumpers helped our wizards be a wrecking crew. Rogues were next followed by our 1 ranger with trueshot, then followed by monks. Very rarely did a melee dps group out do wizards.

A melee group with completely shit gear, perhaps. Otherwise...no.

Seaweedpimp
07-29-2011, 02:04 PM
Necro will still be god ~

Harrison
07-29-2011, 02:07 PM
Necro will still be a glorified mana battery.

Messianic
07-29-2011, 02:13 PM
I respectfully disagree, Messianic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev1Vsnf6LGs&

A melee group with completely shit gear, perhaps. Otherwise...no.

Notice it took 10 minutes for the Zura tags to start forming ;) Apparently you have a following

Plus SoL kills EC tunnel :( fail lol

RIP EC Tunnel, then =P I hate having to zone like 3-5 times to manage/sell/etc my inventory.

Troy
07-29-2011, 02:37 PM
RIP EC Tunnel, then =P I hate having to zone like 3-5 times to manage/sell/etc my inventory.

Which is why we should use gfay :cool:

Atmas
07-29-2011, 02:43 PM
Which is why we should use gfay :cool:

Gbay had a lot of commerce on TZ before the Baz.

Commonlands were PvP hot spots.

Messianic
07-29-2011, 02:46 PM
Which is why we should use gfay :cool:

I always preferred Gfay, but most people don't...

Zuranthium
07-29-2011, 02:55 PM
Notice it took 10 minutes for the Zura tags to start forming ;) Apparently you have a following

Haha I know, right? I stopped playing/posting for nearly a month too.

greatdane had the best post in this thread. Everyone should read this (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=346549&postcount=6) if you want accurate information. LOL @ the idea of Wizards being better DPS than melee.

But, as per usual, once we've established what is wrong with the game, the initiative will not be to have the collective desire to improve the game (ie - bring back the magical feeling of classic EQ), but rather just conform to status quo. p1999 is more like WoW than Classic EQ at this point because there is less and less sense of adventure left and it's instead more about copy+pasting an exact, repetitive method that does not require much skill or thought. That will hold true for any server which tries to copy EQ exactly, because the mechanics of EQ itself were more static than dynamic and the magic of EQ was in it being so unique at the time and the player base playing it as actual RPG, rather than merely a larger scale version of Diablo.

SupaflyIRL
07-29-2011, 02:56 PM
EC is between guk and solb and is near both an evil city and a non evil city. Gfay is near absolutely nothing and no evil cities.

Harrison
07-29-2011, 03:03 PM
EC is between guk and solb and is near both an evil city and a non evil city. Gfay is near absolutely nothing and no evil cities.

Gfay has a direct port into it.

Bazaar > both

Fuck wasting time sitting in a zone not playing a game.

SupaflyIRL
07-29-2011, 03:07 PM
Gfay has a direct port into it.

Bazaar > both

Fuck wasting time sitting in a zone not playing a game.

Yuuuuup

Seaweedpimp
07-29-2011, 03:09 PM
Gfay has a direct port into it.

Bazaar > both

Fuck wasting time sitting in a zone not playing a game.

Yeah it must blow to sit in EC for days trying to sell some old PKT.


If you actually have loot to sell, or money to buy things its not entirely that boring. But when the whole server knows your a negative asshat 100% of the time yeah it must get boring.

Harrison
07-29-2011, 03:16 PM
I sold multiple PKTs at that price, actually.

Move along noobshit. You and Armani are wed in stupidity.

Seaweedpimp
07-29-2011, 03:22 PM
I remember i was talking to armani that day, he sent me a tell laughing his ass off saying woah harrison started casting a spell, i thought he was gonna DS a newbie, turns out he just DSed himself..

We were like damn dude. Damn.

Youre a complete prick bro. LOL

Harrison
07-29-2011, 03:27 PM
Sort of like spam trading me so I couldn't DS the lowbies I was oocing for?

You're such a lowlife scumbag lol You're really going to try and lie about that?

Go back to vztz...ohwait.

Yinikren
07-29-2011, 04:09 PM
Back on topic.

I'd actually like it if they continued with Luclin 2-3 years after Velious.. but did not implement AA's.


AA's, imo, were what tured EQ into a ridiculous grindfest, because there was no cap on them. Either cap them, or skip them entirely, and Luclin would be a solid expansion. The raid content was very fun.

Harrison
07-29-2011, 04:23 PM
Luclin was fun, up until VT, which was horribly underfinished and incomplete...then rushed to "completion".

VT was terrible, almost worth it with all the sweet toys that dropped there.

SirDayblaze
07-29-2011, 04:42 PM
VT was far from fun, I would say it was time consuming and boring beyond compare. The amount of hp those mobs had was just rediculous. I can remember offtanking as a paladin...ran a mob to a corner, equiped FD for its wonderful proc, casted stun line spells on the mob a couple of times and just afked for some undetermined amount of time.

Galanteer
07-29-2011, 05:57 PM
Which is why we should use gfay :cool:

On mith marr, back in the day, we used north freeport. the evils used the tunnel. Bank right there...Saturdays were special market days.

Rais
07-29-2011, 06:07 PM
A melee group with completely shit gear, perhaps. Otherwise...no.

It's already proven you're a moron about classes and their ability. I can't help it if you sucked that bad as a wizard. Go back to playing a 3 min mage in wow.

Zuranthium
07-29-2011, 06:20 PM
It's already proven you're a moron about classes and their ability.

The only thing that's proven is how people get frustrated with the correct info I've brought to the table and/or my vision of how modern-day Everquest should be in order to "recapture the magic".

I love your defensive statement of "I can't help it you sucked as a Wizard" as if that proves anything. There is essentially no skill in involved with doing damage as a Wizard, after the basic understanding of aggro. All it comes down to is pure math of what the class is capable of my repeatedly clicking their button and the mana regen they have. Wizards are far behind melee and anyone with a brain who has played at high-end knows that. Someone needs to do some kind of official parse and sticky it.

Especially LOL @ you saying a Wizard owns so much with Necros and Magicians pumping mana into him. Hey, guess what, you could just be using a bunch of melee instead of all of those people that are pumping into the Wizard (and instead of the Wizard themself). You'll do far more damage.

Rais
07-29-2011, 06:39 PM
Just like melee requires haste and other buffs. Mod ridden or Necro twitch is no differen:o

I played the end game stuff. I was lucky enough to be in one of the top end raiding guilds,if not "the". I saw parses, I saw the numbers first hand. I was part of it. I'm pretty certain you spent more time on graffe website crying over being out dpsed by a rogue in your 40s.

You're the typical person who cried more at the game,tried to crunch numbers just to prove a point. I sure hope you really are a troll and I'm lured in. Ive seen some stupid people play this game and you top them all.

Zuranthium
07-29-2011, 07:50 PM
Just like melee requires haste and other buffs. Mod ridden or Necro twitch is no differen:o

Haste is irrelevant, there's going to be an Enchanter there anyway (Clarity!) if you're using a bunch of Wizards in comparison to a bunch of melee. The melee are far more effective and if you've "seen the numbers" then you would know how big the gap is.

You're the typical person who cried more at the game, tried to crunch numbers just to prove a point.

Don't try to tell me who I am (you're wrong anyway); try and form a coherent argument.

I experienced how people in roleplaying guilds stopped playing certain classes (or the game entirely) when they got up into the 50's and into the later content of the game. When your class becomes ineffective, the game becomes less fun; both because you aren't contributing equally and because you aren't able to perform the intended purpose you started playing the class for. This was especially true for Wizards. They signed up for the class to burn targets down and when you get to the later levels Wizards can't do that. In many cases later on, the target's HP bar doesn't even freaking move when you hit a nuke on it. Gee, tons of fun.

Crunching numbers is entirely relevant, even if it shouldn't be used as the only way to balance classes.

greatdane
07-29-2011, 11:36 PM
There's the advantage of not having to stand within range of the AoEs that practically all Velious raid mobs have. A competent raid should be able to deal with that, though; there's not much else but heals for the shamans, druids and paladins to cast once the fight has begun, after all. Caster DPS was appreciably less than rogue/monk DPS, especially because Velious mobs tend towards low AC and high resists, but you'll have problems if all your DPS is melee and thus gets molested by AoE. What's best largely depends on the gear level - if you're still in the gearing-up process, you might benefit from having a heavy caster crew. If your guild is well-geared, melee is the way to go because 1) they get loads of resists with gear and don't get hit as hard by AoEs and b) melee DPS actually scales with gear while casters don't at all. By and large, caster damage is sub-par throughout all of early Everquest, but the circumstances can make it more appealing. Since our playerbase is both raid-obsessed poopsockers and shameless min-maxers, I'd expect melee to be the winners of Velious. Caster itemization doesn't get decent until later on, and it never gets fully balanced.

Bubbles
07-30-2011, 10:00 AM
Don't try to tell me who I am (you're wrong anyway); try and form a coherent argument.


It doesn't matter who you are. And if Rais is talking about wizards from '99-'02, get out a crayon and napkin and get ready for the pop quiz later. He wrote the book. He's like.. umm.. the actual guru!

nalkin
07-30-2011, 12:25 PM
Bard + drum = no worry about AEs

Kain
11-10-2011, 04:43 AM
Luclin had some cool stuff, Emperor and I remember one dungeon had a invisible bridge across a great chasm.

VT- I just recall nearly half the raid being semi AFK whacking off or whatnot. The place had some insane droolworthy loot but it was the most boring dungeon ever.

However my 13 year old mind, knew there was something seriously wrong with the lore at this point. So here I am fighting Half Erudite, Half gorilla children on on the moon with space kitties.

My dark elf's skull helmet the sole reason I rolled dark elf suddenly changed me in to Megamind with metallic tentacles coming out of my giant head.

The hell is going on??? Arggh!!! Damn Luclin flashback, thought I actually was there for a second.

Flash
11-10-2011, 05:31 AM
How did the Monk nerf work anyway? I was around Live when it hit on a 51 Monk both during Luclin and Planes, and I didn't notice any increase in my so-called "squishiness." I could still take hits in the absence of a plate tank.

Autotune
11-10-2011, 06:03 AM
Wizards can sustain dps if you know wtf you're doing (definitely will outshine melee). Someone needs to munch on more crunchy numbers.

Glasken
11-10-2011, 06:21 AM
Luclin had some cool stuff, Emperor and I remember one dungeon had a invisible bridge across a great chasm.

VT- I just recall nearly half the raid being semi AFK whacking off or whatnot. The place had some insane droolworthy loot but it was the most boring dungeon ever.

However my 13 year old mind, knew there was something seriously wrong with the lore at this point. So here I am fighting Half Erudite, Half gorilla children on on the moon with space kitties.

My dark elf's skull helmet the sole reason I rolled dark elf suddenly changed me in to Megamind with metallic tentacles coming out of my giant head.

The hell is going on??? Arggh!!! Damn Luclin flashback, thought I actually was there for a second.

Completely second this, no Luclin. Ever.

karsten
11-10-2011, 08:24 AM
wizards on live blasted the balls off of raid mobs in velious, /whistle

Gwence
11-10-2011, 12:03 PM
yea an unresistable and fairly low agro, low mana, massive nuke will do that

also by now luclin and pop are part of the classic eq experience, so they'll be coming out Im sure!

Extunarian
11-10-2011, 12:28 PM
lol at Zaranthium vs Rais. I must have missed this the first go-round.

Nirgon
11-10-2011, 12:33 PM
Porlos' Fury and Hsagra's Wrath, son.

Nirgon
11-10-2011, 12:36 PM
Must suck having a forum to post trades. Need the bazaar right?

I find it very, very doubtful most people will finish everything to do in Velious as fast as they think.

Vulak? Tunare? AoW?

Gwence
11-10-2011, 02:56 PM
they'll be dead in less than 2 weeks, maybe 3 because no one is going to want to waste time on tunare, her loot is crap to begin with.

Nirgon
11-10-2011, 03:05 PM
Definitely the worst loots (http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.html?id=5335) up in here right?

knottyb0y
11-10-2011, 03:57 PM
I find it very, very doubtful most people will finish everything to do in Velious as fast as they think.

Vulak? Tunare? AoW?

If you Zerg them... They will die.

The fact that we have the strats for all these creatures is going to make downing them a WHOLE lot easier. I remember the top guild on our server taking at least a month before being able to take down the AOW. And a whole lot of gearing up in between.

Snaggles
11-10-2011, 04:04 PM
They won't clear through Velious that quick. The top guilds should progress at a nice rate but that doesn't even touch the others that will be dabbling in Ntov for eternity and trying to do "lesser" things like killing Dain or Yeli.

What happens when you do it all? I guess you max out every slot with your Vulak picks, mob through ST, wake the Sleeper and earn contempt forever. Or you start alt toons and level them up. Or you quit.

Regardless every player on the server won't see Vulak or ST. Without the post 60 caps stuff isn't trivial for the non-organized. For the best people with the most time it is...but what can't those folks trivialize?

Looking forward to it regardless. :)

Ele
11-10-2011, 04:06 PM
Must suck having a forum to post trades. Need the bazaar right?

I find it very, very doubtful most people will finish everything to do in Velious as fast as they think.

Vulak? Tunare? AoW?

All raid targets were downed within 6 hours of Velious opening up on Fippy Darkpaw except for Sleepers Tomb (obviously no keys), Yelinak and Zlandicar which were not spawning. Sleeper was awakened 15 days later.

http://www.fippydarkpaw.com/news/show/498730

Snaggles
11-10-2011, 04:07 PM
All raid targets were downed within 6 hours of Velious opening up on Fippy Darkpaw except for Sleepers Tomb (obviously no keys), Yelinak and Zlandicar which were not spawning. Sleeper was awakened 15 days later.

http://www.fippydarkpaw.com/news/show/498730

I stand corrected ;). Full throttle towards contempt it is!

Nirgon
11-10-2011, 04:20 PM
With the right # of clerics and good kunark weps, should be able to move pretty quick I guess. I presume it is obvious some one will try to let sleeper loose asap.

Atmas
11-10-2011, 04:31 PM
I really have to wonder how many people they brought to AoW to kill him that soon after release.

I guess it's not too surprising given that video of VS.

Gwence
11-10-2011, 04:58 PM
Definitely the worst loots (http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.html?id=5335) up in here right?

that's a revamped loot table guy, she doesn't drop all that out the door.

Roku
11-10-2011, 05:01 PM
VT was far from fun, I would say it was time consuming and boring beyond compare. The amount of hp those mobs had was just rediculous. I can remember offtanking as a paladin...ran a mob to a corner, equiped FD for its wonderful proc, casted stun line spells on the mob a couple of times and just afked for some undetermined amount of time.

I remember doing this on my warrior while I was raid MA. Would just glance back at the screen ever-so-often to see if the mob was still positioned correctly.

Despite the boring nature of VT's afk-fest, if we knew for a fact that AAs were in p99's future, I'd definitely be playing a ranger and very much looking forward to AAs. I didn't roll a ranger on live until the Drakkin race came out, but man was it fun having EQ and AM3. I'm sure others have their own favorite "with-AA" classes.

Gwence
11-10-2011, 05:03 PM
If you Zerg them... They will die.

The fact that we have the strats for all these creatures is going to make downing them a WHOLE lot easier. I remember the top guild on our server taking at least a month before being able to take down the AOW. And a whole lot of gearing up in between.

Fact is most people have fuzzy recollections of velious encounters, very few people out there know how to do what and in such a way to produce a victory. Yes, things will die.. but not because everyone knows what they're doing going into it.

Also zerg on velious mobs won't work, but I fully expect some people to try. It will definitely be entertaining.

Nirgon
11-10-2011, 05:15 PM
that's a revamped loot table guy, she doesn't drop all that out the door.

I think backstab modifier's showed up in Luclin? I know FT was in Velious and the chest/robe pieces are just things that drop already and are Thurgadin quality.

Daldaen
11-10-2011, 05:41 PM
All raid targets were downed within 6 hours of Velious opening up on Fippy Darkpaw except for Sleepers Tomb (obviously no keys), Yelinak and Zlandicar which were not spawning. Sleeper was awakened 15 days later.

http://www.fippydarkpaw.com/news/show/498730

OP Harm Touch / Pets / Monk fists don't count :/. Nor does their loot system. They had post revamp PoFear/Hate/Sky loot from the get go.

usedtobejubaloftorv
11-11-2011, 03:50 AM
I did a pretty thorough analysis of the cleric class at the beginning of SoL. Long story short, you need to be content with basically casting nothing but CH the majority of your playtime, because everything else becomes useless at raid level. Yes there are circumstances in which another spell might come in useful but they are very rare.

I had quit at that point because it was not fun to be in a position where you were vital to anything interesting happening for anyone else, yet the gameplay itself was completely uninteresting for you.

The real secret to clericing is that it's an express route to high end raiding, since you have to be absolutely awful not to be desired pretty much everywhere - whereas with pretty much any other class you need to compete a lot harder for raid spots. So if you don't have raiding experience but want it, and are willing to put up with a lot of tedium in order to gain that experience, a cleric is a good choice - and this frees up the experienced players to play all those melees and shamans.

Nirgon
11-11-2011, 11:32 AM
OP Harm Touch / Pets / Monk fists don't count :/. Nor does their loot system. They had post revamp PoFear/Hate/Sky loot from the get go.

Warping past trash, other various exploits.

Temperate
12-06-2011, 02:36 AM
The melee vs wizard debate just hinges on the encounter. A rogue dishes out more than a wizard if the fight is of some duration--i.e.,Doze, Statute of RZ, NTov. Wizards simply come out ahead in the shorter fights. Zland, Kland, Vindi etc.

Are rogues unquestionably the best dps in velious? Yes. Does a wizard out damage a rogue on Zlandicar? Absolutely. It's just the basic way the relative strengths of the classes are setup. Velious wizards dealt 15k in a heartbeat. Eight sunstrikes on a respectable velious mana pool of 3,600. Yet like the archetypal hare, wizards then absolutely dropped off the table after depleting their mana. The rough parallel can made to the sports world. Rogues are the soccer players, effective and consistent throughout a match. Wizards are the football players--dominate in short bursts, but depend on periods of rest to keep performing at a high level.

liveitup1216
12-06-2011, 03:33 AM
All raid targets were downed within 6 hours of Velious opening up on Fippy Darkpaw except for Sleepers Tomb (obviously no keys), Yelinak and Zlandicar which were not spawning. Sleeper was awakened 15 days later.

http://www.fippydarkpaw.com/news/show/498730

80% MQ, 19% vastly improved spells, damage tables, out of era gear/stats, 1% socks of poop.

We'll only have the 1%.

Lucidus
12-06-2011, 10:56 AM
As an enchanter, my memories of Velious were pretty awful. tbqh, I'd rather skip velious and get straight to Luclin.

Why did I roll on this server again???

Oh yeah, Kunark kicks ass.

Nirgon
12-06-2011, 11:22 AM
If you hate Velious, I hope you give it another shot this time around. Shit is grand, son.

Lucidus
12-06-2011, 11:50 AM
Nah, I love Velious, just not as an enchanter. Enchanter is awesome for Kunark and Luclin content, but for a Velious endgame I'm seriously considering a different toon.

Lindalind
12-06-2011, 01:37 PM
Wizards: the only nuker class that really thrives, and still I wouldn't call them great. Lure spells will land on raid mobs, but they have horrible mana efficiency and wizards bring literally nothing but damage. Melee still out-shines them, raid mobs get so many HP that you can't burn them down, and there isn't enough flowing thought gear in the game until Luclin/PoP for a wizard to really be able to provide sustained damage throughout the entire fight. There were still places where coordinated burst damage has value, and it's nice to avoid AoEs, but casters weren't truly on par with melee until AAs.

Rogues: best DPS, though if you can't get one of the very high-end daggers from Vulak, Tunare etc., you don't actually get much better between Kunark and Velious. Goes to show how insane of a boost 51-60 and Ragebringer was for rogues. You should have max str/dex without Avatar anyway.

Monks: insane class until the nerf hits, which isn't until Luclin/PoP. The vast amounts of 100HP/20+AC items in Velious makes this class absurdly strong, able to tank much better than a DPS class should while doing great DPS and retaining the critical role of best puller. They lose all of that in later expansions which probably made Furor jizz his pants, but in Velious, raid-geared monks are just too good.

Bards: still a fine class, and crucial on raids for their resist songs, but many of their songs lose value as people easily hit caps with the wide variety of 41% haste items and +20ish stats/resist gear in Velious. I personally think this class goes downhill after Kunark and descends from superb to good. It's only because songs are limited to your group that they don't end up at the enchanter status of "just need one or two for the buffs". They also don't benefit much from gear, lacking the incentive to optimize melee DPS and having no use for the flowing thought items that appear in Velious. Can do silly things solo, but a lot of mobs start summoning by then.


Wizards though are great to burn the raid mob down fast along with the rogues and monks in the last half or so when they won't get much or perhaps any agro. A couple groups of wizards will add a ton of firepower and the fight will go a lot faster since they can go all out at that point.

usedtobejubaloftorv
12-06-2011, 02:11 PM
The point of nukers is not sustained dps, but burst dps... they're there to burn the mob through critical points (e.g. while a mob is trying to CH itself), not to top the overall damage charts.

Nirgon
12-06-2011, 02:34 PM
Nah, I love Velious, just not as an enchanter. Enchanter is awesome for Kunark and Luclin content, but for a Velious endgame I'm seriously considering a different toon.

Charmed giants in Kael/ some things in western wastes, PoG CC and rune spamming tanks ain't so bad man.

Ele
12-06-2011, 02:47 PM
Charmed giants in Kael/ some things in western wastes, PoG CC and rune spamming tanks ain't so bad man.

Spends months on ENC epic

Keep VoG memmed

Nirgon
12-06-2011, 02:58 PM
Effect: Speed of the Shissar (0 mana)
1: Increase Attack Speed by 66%
2: Increase AGI by 40
6: Increase AC by 12

Effect: Visions of Grandeur
1: Increase Attack Speed by 58%
2: Increase AGI by 40
3: Increase DEX by 25
4: Increase ATK by 20

Not to mention the 10 save all, 20 int etc definitely sucks on the staff right
http://zam.zamimg.com/images/8/f/8fd147911d40828842ea9210cb84fd41.png

I'd also hate to have free haste for everything I charm.

Months on enchanter epic, lulz.

Lucidus
12-06-2011, 03:02 PM
Charming mobs isn't endgame. Rune spamming - nothing like reagent heals.

Yeah, sad to say that PoG was the highlight of Velious.

Atmas
12-06-2011, 03:02 PM
Yeah I felt bad for enchanters in Velious.

Back on the main point. Wizards work/worked as intended. Good burst dps on raids and the intended lack of sustainability. Orginial EQ was great because it gave classes checks like that. Did anyone ever read the WoW description for Death Knights? I'm paraphrasing but it really did go something like this:

Death Knight

Description:
yada yada yada
.... ..... ... ....
Stengths:
... ..... ....
... ..... ....
Fighting gives rune power so as long as you keep fighting you can have unlimited rune power
... ..... ....

Weakness:
Your attacks need rune power

Anyway what I am getting at is I hate fantasy RPGs where one class can do everything with no real failing. At one point Death Knights, a hybrid tank class, topped the charts on AoE damage.

Autotune
12-06-2011, 03:10 PM
Effect: Speed of the Shissar (0 mana)
1: Increase Attack Speed by 66%
2: Increase AGI by 40
6: Increase AC by 12

Effect: Visions of Grandeur
1: Increase Attack Speed by 58%
2: Increase AGI by 40
3: Increase DEX by 25
4: Increase ATK by 20

Not to mention the 10 save all, 20 int etc definitely sucks on the staff right
http://zam.zamimg.com/images/8/f/8fd147911d40828842ea9210cb84fd41.png

I'd also hate to have free haste for everything I charm.

Months on enchanter epic, lulz.

20int, who needs int?

Give me more hp/mana pls.

Nirgon
12-06-2011, 03:11 PM
The int is nice for people who are largely wearing resists/CHA gear depending. Took the bait.

Autotune
12-06-2011, 03:12 PM
The int is nice for people who are largely wearing resists/CHA gear depending. Took the bait.

no it's not, give me more hp/mana.

Nirgon
12-06-2011, 03:13 PM
Int...mana... weapon gives..hp..


I'm done here thx byes.

Autotune
12-06-2011, 03:15 PM
Int...mana... weapon gives..hp..


I'm done here thx byes.

More, look that word up.

and again...

who needs int?

Lucidus
12-06-2011, 03:16 PM
no it's not, give me more hp/mana.

Roll +25sta chanter for tanking as such.

Visual
10-17-2012, 07:49 PM
Druids: always a pretty pitiful class for any high-end gameplay. I'm pretty sure Circle of Seasons is a Luclin or PoP spell, and Circle of Summer/Winter were barely better than Resist Fire/Cold. Glades is a decent buff and druids could patch-heal well enough, but it was never required and a shaman could do just as well while providing much more valuable buffs/debuffs. Throughout the entire early history of EQ, this class has no real role and is more of a convenient casual player class.


!

Furme
01-03-2013, 09:00 AM
who needs int?


People for whom the ratio of mana to int exceeds the amount of +mana they can find on adequately obtainable gear?

*Edit*

Brought this post back from the dead accidentally, was searching for velious and got caught up in the post.. forgot to look at the date.. Nothing to see here!