Red99 Idiot's PVP Questions Thread

[dusk883]

I'm sure I'm not the only one with the following lingering questions as I decide between Wizard, SK or Enchanter...I've got a few hours played on P99, haven't REALLY played EQ since 03/04 on Tallon Zek and these are the questions I don't think we have answers on:

1- What will be the pumice situation? Recharging egg shaped pumices? What kind of pumice will be avail?

2- Melee damage? Full damage most of the time? All of the time?

3- Resists... way too many questions so any info would be great, specifically MR related.

4- Pet melee damage and run speed? I wouldn't think run speed would be an issue but so many different servers have differing speeds for pets...

5- Melee HIT BOX - make it BIGGER than blue 99 IMO...

6- Charmable Pets? Can we charm a pet class player's pet? Since we can't charm players, this is a "must have" IMO.

7- Wizard nuking is going to hit players as it would on mobs?

[Rushmore]

most of these questions are still unanswered. We will find out in BETA...

Hopefully Today through the next couple weeks.

[Doors]

Beta confirmed today maybe tomorrow.

[dusk883]

Today might be the Beta? NICE! That said, I can't remember where to go buy Pumice of any kind...

[Crenshinabon]

1) Pretty sure he mentioned no egg shaped instant dispell pumice. Gonna be the few second cast time one. If Egg shaped is in, game is fkin broken now that everyone knows about them.
2)Seen full damage thrown around since melee damage is pretty craptastic on P99.
3)Resist is no idea, gotta wait for beta. General public seems to want 100 near immunity 75% resist rate, 150 immune 90% resist rate.
4)Prob full runspeed and melee since pet damage is also reduced on P99.
5)No idea, hope its bigger.
6)No idea. Most recent boxes make pets poof as a medium.
7)Think 80% pvp damage or so was classic. Again though no one knows for sure.

Most cities have a vender somewhere, its on p99 wiki. Look up Pumice.

[Yukahwa]

Definitely going to need a larger melee hit box. P99 hitbox is ridiculous.

[dusk883]

It'll be heart freakin breakin for the melees if we're hitting for 12 damage half the time during a level 20 fight.

150 immunity? Hardly classic IMO. I ran around TZ with 255 MR as an enchanter and was still dispelling shit off of me occasionally. (and yes, I didn't have any mana to kill anyone, i was just mostly immune at 255).

100 MR for near immunity is completely retarded IMO, thats really what the people want? I'll be an SK for sure if this happens.

[dusk883]

100 MR for near immunity and 150 for immunity means the way to win the game in 1vs1 casual play is to alt-Enchanter for jewelcraft, arm your SK and lay waste around level 40 to everything...

[Nirgon]

3)Resist is no idea, gotta wait for beta. General public seems to want 100 near immunity 150 immune.


Stuns (whirl), roots should be like this. All or nothing magic based spells like enchanter and wiz DD (force line, Jiva) were a little different still. Then there was plain old roll the dice magic damage (lightning shock 39 wiz etc). There's nigh immunity to the roots/stuns and all or nothing magics, then there's the consideration of partially resist magic damage. It is very possible to get it right and even more possible to get it close. 150 resist all shouldn't make you immune to all spells :P.

[Rushmore]

It'll be heart freakin breakin for the melees if we're hitting for 12 damage half the time during a level 20 fight.

150 immunity? Hardly classic IMO. I ran around TZ with 255 MR as an enchanter and was still dispelling shit off of me occasionally. (and yes, I didn't have any mana to kill anyone, i was just mostly immune at 255).

100 MR for near immunity is completely retarded IMO, thats really what the people want? I'll be an SK for sure if this happens.

Yeah I don't know wtf he was talking about. I would imagine even if you have 1,000,000 resists there needs to be a chance even if .01 of you getting rooted etc.

[Crenshinabon]

As far as I can remember classic 100 magic resist meant you could be fairly confidently not to get snared or rooted 4/5 times and if I had over 150 magic resist pre kunark I could be confident to almost never get rooted or snared maybe 9/10 resist or so. Those are for all or nothing spells.

It was super tough in classic to get over 150 mr without a bard or enchanter.

[dusk883]

Back in the day when you saw a Warrior you said "OH SHIT there's an UPRIGHT WARRIOR - he must have FRIENDS NEARBY"

If 100 MR gives you close to "immunity"... I can't wait to go SK or Warrior... there won't be a caster standing - and I SUCK at this game.

[Galacticus]

1. Yup
2. Yup
3. Yup
4. Yup
5. Yup
6. Yup
7. Yup
8. Yup
9. Nope

[dusk883]

As far as I can remember classic 100 magic resist meant you could be fairly confidently not to get snared or rooted 4/5 times and if I had over 150 magic resist pre kunark I could be confident to almost never get rooted or snared maybe 9/10 resist or so. Those are for all or nothing spells.

It was super tough in classic to get over 150 mr without a bard or enchanter.

Well damn, I don't remember this at all on the teams server pre- POP anyway. If this were the case, how in the hell do you stop a level 40 team of Warrior and Shaman (your MR guy) who had an alt Enchanter build their MR jewelry? You'd need 4 guys to take this team out.

[Crenshinabon]

Well damn, I don't remember this at all on the teams server pre- POP anyway. If this were the case, how in the hell do you stop a level 40 team of Warrior and Shaman (your MR guy) who had an alt Enchanter build their MR jewelry? You'd need 4 guys to take this team out.

What are you even referring to. If there is a warrior decked out with blue diamond jewelry and full MR gear and has magic resist buff on him he prob has 175 or so MR. You wont be rooting or snaring him, end of story. If I had that and got snared for 5 minutes I would be pissed. Use other tactics, use MR debuff, dispell his MR buff. Use non MR all or nothing spells.

[dusk883]

Well, I think we remember things differently is all I'm saying. I distinctly remember having no issues as a level 40 - 56 Kunark Enchanter mezzing, rooting any and all Warriors at will back in the day. Without Tash. If I'm mistaken and 175 MR is good enough, I'll definitely be going with a pure melee class and now thinking Warrior for that free point every level in MR. I like your memory better actually and would prefer the MR system you suggest.

[dusk883]

What are you even referring to. If there is a warrior decked out with blue diamond jewelry and full MR gear and has magic resist buff on him he prob has 175 or so MR. You wont be rooting or snaring him, end of story. If I had that and got snared for 5 minutes I would be pissed. Use other tactics, use MR debuff, dispell his MR buff. Use non MR all or nothing spells.

You have a LOT of dispelling to get to a Shaman's MR buff... the warrior and Shaman buff list is a book long with MR being the last on the list. By the time you got to dispelling half the buffs, the warrior's executioner axe has removed thy head... just IMO.

[dusk883]

For the All or Nothings, I agree there, I don't remember anyone using Whirl to you Hurl in pvp unless it was clear that they had a big level advantage and could spare the mana for a fun risk shot.

[XiakenjaTZ]

I don't think resists will be as bad (if you are a caster) as people are saying.

There should NEVER be 100% immunity.
Hopefully partial resists will be fair, I don't think they ever worked all that well on VZTZ
To get 80% I would hope someone would have to have good gear, best buffs, and be in a group with a bard.

There should be a difference between how fire, cold, poison, and disease work versus how MR works. It would be nice to see people have to sacrifice some MR for other resists as opposed to how it usually is... max MR, ignore the rest.

[dusk883]

Xia, that reminds me of Ranadiel i think it was... in Qeynos Hills he was smoked by a bunch of troll shamans and a de necro, he comes running back on his CR after a bank stop, "I brought my PR and DR gear, bitches!!"

Pretty sure he got killed again but whatevs.

[Bockscar]

It'll be heart freakin breakin for the melees if we're hitting for 12 damage half the time during a level 20 fight.

150 immunity? Hardly classic IMO. I ran around TZ with 255 MR as an enchanter and was still dispelling shit off of me occasionally. (and yes, I didn't have any mana to kill anyone, i was just mostly immune at 255).

100 MR for near immunity is completely retarded IMO, thats really what the people want? I'll be an SK for sure if this happens.

MR doesn't make you immune to dispels at all. All you get out of 255MR is virtual immunity to root, magic-based nukes, and other spells that just straight up roll vs. magic resist. I'm also skeptical that you had 255MR pre-Kunark. Your posts don't suggest that you were the kind of player who had the best possible gear, and anyway you can barely break 150 unbuffed MR on an int caster in classic. That's if you sacrifice literally everything else just to hoard MR which would be really stupid.

Classic resists were basically like this:
100 = you resist most of the spells, enough that you don't really have to worry about getting rooted or wrecked by magic-based nukes
150 = you're nearly immune, but spells might rarely land for minimal damage/duration (for the spells where that's applicable)

What people want is classic PvP. That includes classic resists, and anything that directly influences PvP in a non-classic way is likely to just disappoint most people. The goal of this server is not to fix the balance issues of EQ PvP.

I don't know what gives you the impression that SKs somehow benefit much more from the resist model, or that they'll wreck everyone. They didn't become really overpowered until PoP. For the classic timespan, they're just a strong and versatile melee class.

Getting 100+ MR isn't gamebreaking even if it lets you shrug off most crowd control. Maintaining a high MR while also sitting comfortably at 100+ FR and CR (and especially PR) is what really takes a carefully balanced and high-end set of gear. Becoming nearly immune to crowd control is part of PvP, it's why melee classes can function at all. Most casters are still plenty viable even if they can't rely on just rooting someone and casting their biggest nuke until they guy is dead. The ability to do that is what makes melee classes pretty much useless in the early game. Any melee (except maybe monks in classic) can get 100 MR with modest gear that you can mostly get by the time you're in your mid-30s. I'm sure we can all agree that melee don't become godlike that easily.

Classes whose offense is exclusively magic-based just shift into a support role instead, which is only fair; if clerics and enchanters could maintain strong offense into the endgame, there would be little reason to play any other class considering how much more they can do than just pewpew. Basically every caster except cleric gets an arsenal of spells that allow them to be a threat even if their target can't be hurt by magic-based spells without resist modifiers.

Shamans get poison and disease damage (the hardest resists to raise) as well as resist debuffs, and SoW/heals lessens the need for crowd control

Druids get fire and cold nukes plus a line of dots with a -100MR modifier, and also SoW/heals

Enchanters get tash and later an unresistable mez, and they're designed to become a support/group class in the endgame

Magicians get a resist debuff (although magicians are notoriously screwed by high resists) and a strong pet - epic pet is especially insane

Wizards get basically unresistable lures, very fast draughts, spells have an innate minor resist modifier (which is basically doubled by flux staff), and shadowstep/yonder lessens the need for root

Necromancer spells mostly come with a strong resist modifier, they have a great pet, can lifetap for survivability and damage in one package, and also have shadowstep

If you want it to be impossible for melees to force casters to rely on those tools, melee becomes pointless to play. They're far too easy to counter when you can just disable them easily and use your biggest, baddest spell to take them out in two or three casts.

[Pudge]

um. he meant he was dispelling the magic based spells that landed on him, not that he was trying to resist dispells

[Goobles]

Think D&D. Your resists are a +resist on a resist check.

This shit is based off the D&D die roll system. If you roll a natural 1 in any situation, you fail.

[dusk883]

nooobody said I ran around with 255 MR Pre-Kunark. By the end of Kunark I know for a fact I had 250-255 MR with buffs as an enchanter. I admit that I had no mana to kill anything but was a helluva group mez guy.

If 100 MR resists "most"... it's settled, I'm going Warrior. See you in game

[dusk883]

um. he meant he was dispelling the magic based spells that landed on him, not that he was trying to resist dispells


This :D

[lethdar]

nooobody said I ran around with 255 MR Pre-Kunark. By the end of Kunark I know for a fact I had 250-255 MR with buffs as an enchanter. I admit that I had no mana to kill anything but was a helluva group mez guy.

If 100 MR resists "most"... it's settled, I'm going Warrior. See you in game

You're full of shit.

[Silikten]

Actually, wasn't some dispell actually resistable in classic? I have some reason to believe recant or pillage enchantment was resistable...Maybe I'm thinkin of something else!

I just hope the z-axis isn't broke so levi is actually back to being GODLIKE for casters.

As for MR. 100+ was always near immune. As it should be. MR is a resist that can immobilize opponents completely. It should be treated differently as it is game breaking. It was always like 3/5 or 7/10 for resists though. Basically once geared 1v1 would provide immunity if you had 100+ but if one landed you would be owned.

It was always fun when that "one" time it landed and your like "FUK WHY NOW."

[dusk883]

As far as I remember, all enchanter spells were resistable in pvp. Even Tash. Of course, it's been 8 years or something since I played any live classic pvp.

[Graym]

Crowd control spells worked differently and were easily resisted. 100 MR was almost a 95% resist rate on Snares, Roots, Stuns etc as it should be. Going higher increases it right near 100% resist rate. It never was 100%, but pretty freaking close to it.

However, because of how long snares lasted for, it was a viable guild on guild strategy to fully debuff somebody and try to get a Snare through. It depended on how high over 100 MR they went for safety. Two notes though regarding this:

1) The tash and malo lines did NOT STACK in original EQ, it was patched in later closer to Kunark. If we are following classic, that's how it should work here with them not stacking on release.

Information link:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-1999.html

Tishan (Enchanter) and Malise (Magician/Shaman) spells now stack.

2) Everyone back then had egg-shaped Pumice so even if you did land a snare on someone, that's a viable time to use Egg-Shaped Pumice. Considering the majority of people who played on the server during that time had the item, and used it in PVP, why wouldn't it be put on this server? It makes no sense at all not to allow them.

Let's take a pure melee for instance with no channeling ability and the 1% chance goes through the guy gets snared, he's dead. With no channeling a single hit will interrupt his crystallized pumice every single time. In the vast majority of cases it will cause his death as he won't be able to get the snare off unless he gets extremely lucky. In larger fights, it's almost certainly a death.

While everyone is now aware of egg-shaped Pumice's, there is a simple solution to it. Give every account 3 egg shaped Pumices. Then, allow recharges and give them a high recharge rate like it was on live. That gives everyone the emergency ability to save themselves, but limits how much people can have and use it. You won't be able to simply spam it in every situation, it will be saved for emergencies which is how the vast majority of people used them on live servers. If we're replicating original PVP here, everyone should have the option to have them, simply limit the amount and the usage rate through the buyback cost.

[lethdar]

Egg shaped pumice are a moron's crutch, not surprised to see you begging for them to be in.

[Ravenlof]

Egg shaped pumice are a moron's crutch, not surprised to see you begging for them to be in.

haha yup

[Graym]

Egg shaped pumice are a moron's crutch, not surprised to see you begging for them to be in.

Yeah I'm not surprised you liked the VZTZ server. I'm surprised you haven't advocated death touch for all of the classes. Heck, why even have PVP, whoever hits first wins! Great concept.

Egg-shaped Pumice allowed people to MOVE so they couldn't easily be killed on the rare chance a crowd control spell broke through. It made the players harder to kill, not easier. I can see why you don't want it. Why require skill on a PVP server? Why joust or use the terrain to your advantage when you can rely on roots, snares and stuns?

[lethdar]

Mippo, we get it. The only way you ever got kills was spamming off caster's buffs and meleeing 800hp buffless casters.

I do understand how scary a concept it is to have to worry about buffs in this game called everquest, things such as buff stacking and protected damage shields must be quite foreign to you. But pal, eventually you can learn from the pros what real everquest pvp is like.

Hint, click egg shaped x8 and autoattack a naked caster down isn't the epitome of skill like you seem to believe.

[dusk883]

The hype is getting me excited.

[Mippo]

Mippo, we get it. The only way you ever got kills was spamming off caster's buffs and meleeing 800hp buffless casters.

I do understand how scary a concept it is to have to worry about buffs in this game called everquest, things such as buff stacking and protected damage shields must be quite foreign to you. But pal, eventually you can learn from the pros what real everquest pvp is like.

Hint, click egg shaped x8 and autoattack a naked caster down isn't the epitome of skill like you seem to believe.

Real Everquest PvP being spamming root on helpless targets under a broken resist system while melees who couldn't joust their way out of a paper bag beat on a still target?

I was the top ranger on the best PvP server back when skill was a factor in this game.

[Graym]

Real Everquest PvP being spamming root on helpless targets under a broken resist system while melees who couldn't joust their way out of a paper bag beat on a still target?

I was the top ranger on the best PvP server back when skill was a factor in this game.

Damn, this guy is good.

[Dfn]

Real Everquest PvP being spamming root on helpless targets under a broken resist system while melees who couldn't joust their way out of a paper bag beat on a still target?

I was the top ranger on the best PvP server back when skill was a factor in this game.

Have your group dispel you? Don't stand in LoS of a caster spamming root on you? Removing egg-shaped is not the end of the world.

[Graym]

Have your group dispel you? Don't stand in LoS of a caster spamming root on you? Removing egg-shaped is not the end of the world.

Yes, I played on live PVP servers. I'm aware of how to dispel root. I'm simply stating the fact that scaling the magic resist system on VZTZ made root a very viable tactic to use, which is why many players opened with it in every fight, instead of kiting and killing people on the move.

Speed is always the most important thing in PVP and that's in most games, not just Everquest. So why allow an ability that lets people stop your movement completely and make it a regular part of PVP? Regardless of whether or not there are ways to dispel root, I'm well aware of them, the less people rely on movement stopping abilities, the higher the quality of PVP becomes as everyone can move around.

[Nirgon]

I have a dream, a world where everyone can move around and pvp.