Selos Issue

[Shwingler]

On classic Selo's occupied the same check as snare and root. Therefore if a bard had selos on and snare or root were cast, selos was removed.

HOWEVER if selos was reapplied after, it would overwrite snares/root. This made bards extremely evasive to snare/root abilities and was an integral part of the very fragile class.

Bards have barely any dps and barely any survivability, so their bonus was utility, selos being the obvious most important.

Please implement this before live!

Thank you.

[Bockscar]

They kinda need more evidence than what some guy seems to remember.

[Lazortag]

Bards have barely any dps and barely any survivability, ...

...WHAT?!

[lindz]

This is just all around wrong.

Selos did not overwrite snare.

And bards lacking survivability? Is this a joke? Bards were THE hardest to kill class period.

[Dfn]

He's right. Selo's would overwrite root and snare early on, pre-kunark. It was nerfed right around Kunark or maybe a little before. Definitely a change that should stay. Selo's overwriting root/snare was pretty dumb.

I don't think most of you dumbasses even played classic EQ - but the op is correct in the mechanics of the ability.

[adam9242]

Selos did overwrite snare/root. Look up the patch notes detailing changes for snare and root stacking, it's explicitly stated there, I'm just too lazy to research for you.

[lindz]

I found nothing in the patch notes for classic or Kunark era talking about a change. My experience comes from someone that played a bard in Kunark era and it wasn't the case then.

Ignite Bones (Necromancer) has had the movement component removed.
This means that it will no longer break root and snare spells, and that
it will now stack with the darkness line.

This implies what you are talking about, I just can't find when it was changed.

[lindz]

Found a relevant patch note from Jan 9th 2001.

*Root and Snare*

Root-type spells and "snare" type spells now use a separate spell
effect.

Previously, "Root" spells would overwrite any snare effect upon the
target. When the root would wear off, the target began moving at full
speed. With this change, when root wears off, snare will still be in
effect. This has a few added effects on the other end.

For instance, root will no longer cancel SoW or Journeyman's Boots
effects. It also allowed us to correct a long-standing bug that was
allowing bards to cancel root on themselves by playing Selo's
Accelerando if Selo's was in effect at the time that the bard was
rooted. As mentioned in a previous patch where the first part of this
bug was fixed, this was not the intended effect.

This looks like Selo's would take you out of root, but not snare. Can't find any info of the "previous patch" it mentions.

[Galacticus]

Found a relevant patch note from Jan 9th 2001.



This looks like Selo's would take you out of root, but not snare. Can't find any info of the "previous patch" it mentions.

Seems to me like they never wanted root to be broken by selos and it was something they couldnt fix but wanted to. Therefore not intended. Just like alot of bugs that we dont include because they aren't intended.

[jilena]

Right, but 90% of the changes in classic content are because of unintended results, yet I don't think anyone is demanding that manastones or dropped jboots or easy money farm spots shouldn't be put in. The question for me would be whether or not it's heinously game breaking for bards to have a get out of jail free card or if it's a fun aspect of the classic experience that should make it in.

[Darksinga]

Change wasn't put into affect till 2001... How can you argue that it shouldn't be in?...

The change was put into affect a month after Velious release..

[Null]

I am pretty sure this will end up going the same way as the pet charm bug that was in well past Luclin, which is not being included.

Thanks for the bug report though, I was not even aware it worked this way for that long :x

[jilena]

So are we doing basically a completely custom item/spell/resist/pvp ruleset tacked on top of P99 content then?

[Softcore PK]

Selo's breaking root and snare is way overpowered. Even without this, bards are the best pvp class.

[Lazortag]

How is it overpowered exactly? Root will almost never land in the high end and almost no one will try casting it. At lower levels this will be extremely useful, but no more useful than other powerful low level abilities, like, say... root, which many classes get. And you can't stay low-leveled forever. I just don't see how big of an advantage one would get from this - I really think you get more of an advantage from being able to root people (non-bards) at low levels than Bards do from being able to avoid root. After all, being able to break root on command is only powerful if you consider root to be powerful ;).

If it's classic it should stay in.

[Softcore PK]

Well ok, maybe it's not all that overpowered. But it does take some skill out of breaking root for the bards. They should have to learn to stack their buffs, and pumice/dispell like everyone else.

[Lazortag]

Well ok, maybe it's not all that overpowered. But it does take some skill out of breaking root for the bards. They should have to learn to stack their buffs, and pumice/dispell like everyone else.

They still will need to do this for dots like the heat blood line, and probably other detrimental buffs.

[Softcore PK]

They still will need to do this for dots like the heat blood line, and probably other detrimental buffs.

Why should bards get this advantage, though? Even though it only works for snare and root, there is no reason for it to work at all. If a bard gets caught without first buff spot open and a snare manages to get past their mr, they should have to deal with their mistake.

Bards are the best class for getting out of snare/root already, why should they be even better?

[juicedsixfo]

I see someone who's been jacked up by Bards his whole EQ life apparently

[Softcore PK]

I was bard on live :P

[Palemoon]

How is it overpowered exactly? Root will almost never land in the high end and almost no one will try casting it. .


Well you dont have to worry about this part, since Null's adjusted resist system will have root landing somewhat at high MR, just maybe for a shorter duration.

So in light of that, the other changes make sense.

[Truth]

void Mob::BardPulse(uint16 spell_id, Mob *caster) {
static const int SELOS_5 = 717; // per stock peqdb
static const int SELOS_51 = 2605;
// travel song too?
bool is_selos = (spell_id == SELOS_5 || spell_id == SELOS_51);

if (is_selos && this->IsRooted())
this->BuffFadeByEffectDetrimental(SE_Root);

int buffs_i; //used later
for (buffs_i = 0; buffs_i < BUFF_COUNT; buffs_i++) {

if (is_selos && IsSnareSpell(buffs[buffs_i].spellid)) // possible a more elegant way, there is no IsSnared()
this->BuffFadeByEffectDetrimental(SE_MovementSpeed); // snare

// rest of buff checks

[Daldaen]

bard
....
very fragile class.


I lol'd.

[Truth]

Soft Caps
Cloth..........= ~75 worn AC (yes its really that low)
Leather......= ~100 worn AC
Monk..........= ~120 worn AC (if they are under 15 stone wieght)
Chain.........= ~200 worn AC
Plate .........= ~300 worn AC

AC returns after the soft cap has been reached
45%: Warrior (from Devs)
33%: Knight (from Devs), Monk (reportedly equal to Knight? via Zajeer?)
23%: Cleric, Bard (via L2), BZR (rough estimate based off of parsing)
17%: BST, Ranger (BST is ~1/2 of the monk, ranger hearsay)
6%: Druid, Enc, Mag, Nec, Wiz (~1/3 of BST -- Druid was quoted as "lowest")
Rogue, Shaman? Probably they are close to cleric returns.

[xblade724]

why are bards constantly getting non-classic nerfs while everyone else bitches about everything staying classic, including keeping in the even more unbalanced items? It isn't like bards can really kill anyone -- they usually survive most fights, but they can't really kill anyone either. Especially with the damn zone plug, we kill so incredibly slow, everyone just plugs bards.

Allow ice comet in game but removing bard speed root etc remove? -__-

We need this back .. pls fix bards, there are so many bugs. Including this one, not giving knockback to boastful bellow (lvl 12 dd that sucks completely with the exception of the knockback that should be there):

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=56802

[Albane]

why are bards constantly getting non-classic nerfs while everyone else bitches about everything staying classic, including keeping in the even more unbalanced items? It isn't like bards can really kill anyone -- they usually survive most fights, but they can't really kill anyone either. Especially with the damn zone plug, we kill so incredibly slow, everyone just plugs bards.


It is quite frustrating that they leave things in the game that were never classic, to benefit one class, while removing things that were around until Velious, calling them non classic.

Root lasting full duration with no chance of heartbeat breaks makes it impossible to do anything as a bard. The one advantage bards had was that they could escape from PvP in outdoor zones. If you got aught in a dungeon as a bard, you were screwed. Now if I get caught anywhere, I am screwed.

- Our single target mez last 1 second, every time.
- Our single target dd with a knockback, has no knockback.
- Our Speed buff does not remove root/snare as it should.
- Missed notes, with max skill, are still insanely higher than they ever were on live.
- Can not fear players.
- Can not charm players.

It wasn't until a bard got their epic, that they were actually able to finally melee in PvP. So with our CC abilities being nerfed to useless, what can we do other than be buff bots?

Out of curiosity, what is left for bards to do in PvP?

[astuce999]

Technically selo's didn't overwrite root, it just superseded it if it was applied after root was already in effect, but if you let selo's fade, and root was still in effect, it would re-root you in place.

Time and time again, the overwhelming argument for anything on here has been "is it classic?"

One blatant example would be the Terror Forged Mask, an item that was nerfed retro-actively in kunark because it was acknowledged that it was never intended for it to have a lich-type effect, but instead was supposed to be a fear. This has a million times more impact that selo's superseding root, yet was included to make it a classic feel.

cheers

'stuce

[Lazortag]

why are bards constantly getting non-classic nerfs while everyone else bitches about everything staying classic, including keeping in the even more unbalanced items? It isn't like bards can really kill anyone -- they usually survive most fights, but they can't really kill anyone either. Especially with the damn zone plug, we kill so incredibly slow, everyone just plugs bards.


Are you trolling?

Maybe they'll fix the "nerfs" when they fix the unbelievably overpowered AE mez? All of this was already addressed in the other thread. The bugs forum isn't for you to cry about how underpowered your class is. Learn to adapt.

And yes, Bards can kill people (even solo). I have no idea where the idea that they can't comes from.

[xblade724]

Are you trolling?

Maybe they'll fix the "nerfs" when they fix the unbelievably overpowered AE mez? All of this was already addressed in the other thread. The bugs forum isn't for you to cry about how underpowered your class is. Learn to adapt.

And yes, Bards can kill people (even solo). I have no idea where the idea that they can't comes from.

A mage the other day sent his lvl 12 spell earth pet on me as I'm level 13 bard. The pet 1v1 me while I'm fully geared, fully prepared. The mage pet destroyed me without a chance. Couldnt run because i'm perma rooted and didn't have a chance against even the pet because he's OP. That damn lvl 12 mage pet is more powerful than my entire class itself! The mage literally just sat there and meditated - didn't need to cast one spell. Wtf? Expecting a "l2play", but shit seriously. Full hp and fully aware and lost--no--dominated.

[Albane]

A mage the other day sent his lvl 12 spell earth pet on me as I'm level 13 bard. The pet 1v1 me while I'm fully geared, fully prepared. The mage pet destroyed me without a chance. Couldnt run because i'm perma rooted and didn't have a chance against even the pet because he's OP. That damn lvl 12 mage pet is more powerful than my entire class itself! The mage literally just sat there and meditated - didn't need to cast one spell. Wtf? Expecting a "l2play", but shit seriously. Full hp and fully aware and lost--no--dominated.

It gets better as you get higher in levels. But bards are really weak compared to our counterparts back in 1999. Our 3 best abilities for PvP have been completely nerfed.

1. Single target mez with a pull, not barely stuns a player, not giving us time to take advantage of MR debuff.
2. Bellow knocking player back giving us a high chance to interrupt casters when combined with our melee.
3. Selo's breaking root/snare, allowing us to stay on casters and away from people beating our soft asses down.


Had I known that these 3 abilities were going to be nerfed, I would have did like 80% of the server and rolled a druid, mage, or necro.

[Lazortag]

It gets better as you get higher in levels. But bards are really weak compared to our counterparts back in 1999. Our 3 best abilities for PvP have been completely nerfed.

1. Single target mez with a pull, not barely stuns a player, not giving us time to take advantage of MR debuff.
2. Bellow knocking player back giving us a high chance to interrupt casters when combined with our melee.
3. Selo's breaking root/snare, allowing us to stay on casters and away from people beating our soft asses down.

I don't understand the first part. What are you even talking about? Mez push? Crission's pixie strike does push and does more than just stun (it mezzes a target for about 18 seconds), and yes it does debuff MR. If someone breaks mez with a dot, well... that's classic.

The second ability has already been addressed thoroughly in another thread. Also, mez interrupts spells too. Just saying.

The third ability isn't that gamebreaking at all. Past level 22 you get a self dispell, plus selo's doesn't work in dungeons, and also in classic root/snare almost never landed at high levels.

I think that having a ridiculously overpowered AE mez is better than having the latter two abilities. If anything Bards are more powerful in pvp on this server.

edited to be nicer.

[Truth]

Wolfram is trolling. Self dispell at 22 is not the same as classic selos, not even close and to make the comparison is disingenuous. You need to equip a lute to cast it, it hits your entire group pissing off the shaman (see if he heals you now), and even then you just wasted 6 seconds (9 seconds if you shadowstep first) to reapply selos which could have just pulsed. By then the wiz you're fighting or even worse mage root pet has already recasted root and you gotta repeat process etc. Man havent we already been over this.

Furthermore, outside of like charming a guard and sending it on bardsnared target or chant/shuriken kiting a pure melee 1v1 (aka very limited circumstances), bards had practically 0 offensive capability in comparison to other classes (aka 2 ice comets to the dome while you're hitting for 12s). So don't let Wolfram fool you into thinking he's some big bad solo bard pk when we all know bards are not pk's til Luclin++ just an essential support role (read: selos bitch bot).

[Softcore PK]

Wolfram is trolling. Self dispell at 22 is not the same as classic selos, not even close and to make the comparison is disingenuous. You need to equip a lute to cast it, it hits your entire group pissing off the shaman (see if he heals you now), and even then you just wasted 6 seconds (9 seconds if you shadowstep first) to reapply selos which could have just pulsed. By then the wiz you're fighting or even worse mage root pet has already recasted root and you gotta repeat process etc. Man havent we already been over this.

Furthermore, outside of like charming a guard and sending it on bardsnared target (aka very limited circumstances), bards had practically 0 offensive capability in comparison to other classes (aka 2 ice comets to the dome while you're hitting for 12s). So don't let Wolfram fool you into thinking he's some big bad solo bard pk when we all know bards are not pk's til Luclin++ just an essential support role (read: selos bitch bot).

Why does he have to be trolling because he has a different opinion than you?

Bards are the most mobile class in the game, and even without selo's breaking snare/root they are the best at dispelling the effects. Equipping an instrument is not a hassle if you're a decent bard, and if you're in a group you can pumice. You can pumice better than any other class, actually :S

If those poor people that play melee classes saw this, they'd be really sad. Is that what you want, Senjuju? To make the rogues sad?

[Truth]

He's trolling because he realizes in a situation where you're getting shit on by mage bolts while the pet chain roots you that particular dispell is all but worthless.

Also, as per the swapping instruments, you then have to swap back to your drum. It's a major hassle especially in chaotic circumstances and comparing the two is def. troll.

[Slave]

even without selo's breaking snare/root they are the best at dispelling the effects.

Wrong. Bards do not get Channeling.

Bards can pumice better than any other class, actually :S


Wrong. Bards do NOT get Channeling.

[Truth]

bards can cast clickies while running. fun times when kunark bp comes out (6sec clicky 100hp heal), fought a bard in west commons once on a wiz and he depleted me after 2 hours (leet solo pk).

[Softcore PK]

He's trolling because he realizes in a situation where you're getting shit on by mage bolts while the pet chain roots you that particular dispell is all but worthless.

Also, as per the swapping instruments, you then have to swap back to your drum. It's a major hassle especially in chaotic circumstances and comparing the two is def. troll.

So you're saying bards need an upgrade because there is one situation where they may find themselves rooted in place like other classes? And even in that one situation, with mr songs, fear and shadow step I'd say bards are pretty okay at handling it.

And bards are too :cool: for channeling.

[Truth]

The one situation I gave is not the only one. Also I explained why shadowstepping is even worse, essentially ensuring the recast timer will be up after you've finished pelling and reapplying selos. Fear is helpful but even more situational, and mr songs are nice but have no effect once you're already rooted. .

[Softcore PK]

The one situation I gave is not the only one. Also I explained why shadowstepping is even worse, essentially ensuring the recast timer will be up after you've finished pelling and reapplying selos. Fear is helpful but even more situational, and mr songs are nice but have no effect once you're already rooted. .

Shadowstep makes going from rooted back to free and selo'd take 9 seconds instead of 6? Maybe mages should be nerfed :P

And mr song does have an effect when rooted. Especially with mage root, which doesn't last long at all and needs to be reapplied over and over and over.

[Truth]

You're stuck on that single situation, but I will say it is pretty self-evident that a single selos pulse is superior to your suggestion of:

step 1. mr song
step 2. fear pet
step 3. shadowstep
step 4. swap in lute
step 5. pell
step 6. swap in drum
step 7. selos
step 8. get re-rooted

[Softcore PK]

You're stuck on that single situation, but I will say it is pretty self-evident that a single selos pulse is superior to your suggestion of:

step 1. mr song
step 2. fear pet
step 3. shadowstep
step 4. swap in lute
step 5. pell
step 6. swap in drum
step 7. selos
step 8. get re-rooted

Sure it's superior. But bards don't need any help here. No one said bards should be immune to snare or root.

[Slave]

Sure it's superior. But bards don't need any help here. No one said bards should be immune to snare or root.

Please, please, stop trolling, and let's all try to help get bards how they were in 1999.

[Truth]

Please, please, stop trolling, and let's all try to help get bards how they were in 1999 to 2001.

ftfy

[xblade724]

Found a relevant patch note from Jan 9th 2001.

*Root and Snare*

Root-type spells and "snare" type spells now use a separate spell
effect.

Previously, "Root" spells would overwrite any snare effect upon the
target. When the root would wear off, the target began moving at full
speed. With this change, when root wears off, snare will still be in
effect. This has a few added effects on the other end.

For instance, root will no longer cancel SoW or Journeyman's Boots
effects. It also allowed us to correct a long-standing bug that was
allowing bards to cancel root on themselves by playing Selo's
Accelerando if Selo's was in effect at the time that the bard was
rooted. As mentioned in a previous patch where the first part of this
bug was fixed, this was not the intended effect.

This looks like Selo's would take you out of root, but not snare. Can't find any info of the "previous patch" it mentions.

Necro bump, per dev's request (more or less :P), with already-stated patch notes on how it was pre-2001~

>> if selos was already going while rooted, the next tick of selos should unroot.

(Playing the song AFTER rooted if it's not already playing would not cause this effect, so if someone's twisting selos and elemental rhythms, if root lands on elemental rhythms, the next twist of selos won't cancel .... but if selos was the last song played and let it channel another tick of selos, it would break root)

Source: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2001-1.html

[xblade724]

Right, but 90% of the changes in classic content are because of unintended results, yet I don't think anyone is demanding that manastones or dropped jboots or easy money farm spots shouldn't be put in. The question for me would be whether or not it's heinously game breaking for bards to have a get out of jail free card or if it's a fun aspect of the classic experience that should make it in.

But here's the thing: Manastone wasn't REMOVED, it was nerfed at a certain time period. Just like bards: This selos thing should be here, like manastone and other things nerfed and "unintended", until Velious.

According what you are saying, any item every nerfed should be REPLACED with the nerfed item, not left in the game at all.

The selos mechanics is no different -- keep it in the game til velious as it was classic. If not, remove any pre-nerf item that's ever been dropped in the game because it's the same argument. Just like Circlet of Shadow per nerf items will still be in the game after velious, but only onward the new ones will drop (Selos will be patched velious+ , but before velious, we should have the classic mechanic)

(/wave Valentin)

[Burgerking]

But here's the thing: Manastone wasn't REMOVED, it was nerfed at a certain time period. Just like bards: This selos thing should be here, like manastone and other things nerfed and "unintended", until Velious.

According what you are saying, any item every nerfed should be REPLACED with the nerfed item, not left in the game at all.

The selos mechanics is no different -- keep it in the game til velious as it was classic. If not, remove any pre-nerf item that's ever been dropped in the game because it's the same argument. Just like Circlet of Shadow per nerf items will still be in the game after velious, but only onward the new ones will drop (Selos will be patched velious+ , but before velious, we should have the classic mechanic)

(/wave Valentin)


Selo's did indeed break root and snare until right around velious era.

BUT if you want classic then...

Denon's should be resisted all the damn time on anyone with 80+ pr and the stun should be .1 not 1 second.

Brusco Bombastic bellow's did not land on anyone with 80+ mr and the stun duration was not amplified by epic.

Dirge was often partial ed or fully resisted by anyone with over 100+ mr

Chants were often fully resisted by anyone with 100-120 mr fr

Bard is one of the least classic classes on red99, all the buffs in there favor. Bard's don't see how great they are until level 59 though lol. So if you want classic changes to bards and your not 59, you are screwing you're own class so hard.

[xurai724]

Selo's did indeed break root and snare until right around velious era.

BUT if you want classic then...

Denon's should be resisted all the damn time on anyone with 80+ pr and the stun should be .1 not 1 second.

Brusco Bombastic bellow's did not land on anyone with 80+ mr and the stun duration was not amplified by epic.

Dirge was often partial ed or fully resisted by anyone with over 100+ mr

Chants were often fully resisted by anyone with 100-120 mr fr

Bard is one of the least classic classes on red99, all the buffs in there favor. Bard's don't see how great they are until level 59 though lol. So if you want classic changes to bards and your not 59, you are screwing you're own class so hard.

Oh so the level 59+ gets advantage but screw 1 to 58, those levels are so easy to get to. Damn right they should add selos fix til velious. It's not like Bards can do anything til max level and epic to anyone in pvp.

It only breaks if selos is already active and most Bards have high MR anyway, just add it