Well... Why did this happen?

[Dfn]

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/9370/gmdeath.jpg
GM death touch?

[Dfn]

1400+ hp. 500ish damage - leaving me with 900ish hp left. No casting messages.

Situation: Kill standard holocaust zerger 5x times because he is bound in lguk at the portal and refuses to leave zone.
Go to kill evil eye PH. Stand in corner so cannot see or be seen. /who periodically even during fight.
Randomly die. With 900ish health. And noone nearby casting. And noone even in zone able to do that amount of damage instantly.

[Uthgaard]

Being slain by an unseen hand generally means you were killed by something that isn't on the entity list. (An invisible gm is one example) But you would still see some damage source, afaik. Even /kill and #kill send a packet that forces you to hit yourself for 10000000001 damage. It is possible to load up MQ on the server and send a packet to do that and steal a camp. It's just logged, not autobanned.

How much xp did you lose? Pve or pvp amount?

[Devi]

shady bsns

[Doublestep]

ooooh, mq kill

[Dfn]

I think it was PvP exp loss, but I'm not certain. I also *think* I was looted, but again - not sure how it's even possible.

Prudent claims to have killed me and looted me, but it's simply not possible within the physics of the game. He is bound at the Froglok King portal - I know this because I killed him mere minutes (<3) before this happened. I also killed him about 15 minutes after this happened and he was still bound at the throne/portal.

I went and timed the run with SoW from the portal to EE and there is no way you're getting there in under 20 seconds - and this is assuming he zoned in the milisecond after I did /who and he was able to get there AND somehow do a 900 damage nuke (680 damage lava bolt?). If you look at the death log it's pretty obvious he wasn't in zone long enough to make to the EE from Portal, or any zone-in for that matter, in the time between my last who and when I died - a matter of mere seconds.

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/116/prudentbusted.jpg

[Doublestep]

i understand this is confusing but running around accusing players of sicking GMs on you is a little angry.

[Ninja]

Weird shit happening, petition an investigation.

[Dfn]

i understand this is confusing but running around accusing players of sicking GMs on you is a little angry.

Normally I wouldn't be so quick to make a claim, but it's pretty clear I had a bullshit death. I'm not one to run and make accusations quickly, I mean look at my history on these forums defending the server/GMs.

I don't want to think it was a GM death touch but I have(had) no alternative explanation that made any sort of sense. It is, iirc, the same message when being GM killed on other servers. Could I be wrong? Certainly, but the evidence suggests it's either a death touch or, as Uthgaard pointed out, some sort of hacker death that I didn't even know was possible.

[Ninja]

Normally I wouldn't be so quick to make a claim, but it's pretty clear I had a bullshit death. I'm not one to run and make accusations quickly, I mean look at my history on these forums defending the server/GMs.

I don't want to think it was a GM death touch but I have(had) no alternative explanation that made any sort of sense. It is, iirc, the same message when being GM killed on other servers. Could I be wrong? Certainly, but the evidence suggests it's either a death touch or, as Uthgaard pointed out, some sort of hacker death that I didn't even know was possible.

Really hoping it was a GM touch as this point lol.

[fiegi]

This one ranks right up there with the Roswell flyer saucer and the JFK assassination

[inimegalg]

daefuin that EXACT unseen hand shit happened to me at lvl 10, was pvping, zoned with like 80% health, was REGENNING to full and then boom death by unseen hand wtf

[Dfn]

daefuin that EXACT unseen hand shit happened to me at lvl 10, was pvping, zoned with like 80% health, was REGENNING to full and then boom death by unseen hand wtf

Thanks for the info.

So it's unlikely this was a GM death touch then (my apologies). Hackcheat program maybe?

[inimegalg]

shrug i was pvping also, sitting in gfay did a /who nobody in zone either... i remember specifically surviving with like 70h then medding to 100h then seeing that.. and i came back and no coin.. weird weird shit.. i petitioned it at the time but they blew me off like i was crazy .. i was like.. ok.. moved on from it, not cool to see it happening still

[inimegalg]

This one ranks right up there with the Roswell flyer saucer and the JFK assassination

and who killed 2pac and biggie smalls

[Skuttles]

If it helps, When I zoned in and did /who I saw prudent in the zone as well. I am Milkshake in game.

I'm assuming he didn't show up in the zone for you and killed you while you couldn't even see him.
I've had people in my group not show up for me in zone and one of us would have to re zone to see them again, weird bug.
I haven't seen someone get PKed with this bug yet though.

[Humerox]

I've had people in my group not show up for me in zone and one of us would have to re zone to see them again, weird bug.

I remember this happening...can't remember if it happened on blue or live...but I've seen this bug before.

[Ninja]

If it helps, When I zoned in and did /who I saw prudent in the zone as well. I am Milkshake in game.

I'm assuming he didn't show up in the zone for you and killed you while you couldn't even see him.
I've had people in my group not show up for me in zone and one of us would have to re zone to see them again, weird bug.
I haven't seen someone get PKed with this bug yet though.

+1 confirmed maybe, it happens pretty often while grouping.

Not once in a blue moon, more like every couple days bug.

[Mafakka]

I think the answer you seek lies in Panda...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If9p0IL7Voo&feature=youtu.be

[xate]

Sometimes when you zone at the same time as someone (this is most noticeable in groups) you get bugged out and do not see them in the zone (in group window, in /who, or visible on client), even though they can see you, and it stays that way till one of you zones in and back out (or relogs).

Sounds like thats what happened.

[xate]

You also left out key parts of "information" about the "situation", like how you were chain zoning in and out of the zone as you would attempt to EB prudent, gate, and zone out before his bolts killed you, re-sow yourself and gate back in to your bind behind the king portal that you sploited past.

Having not been there, but reading your post, and hearing various explanations from other people in zone at the time of what was going on, here is what probably actually happened, say if im wrong:

you ran to EE, EB'd prudent, gated to your bind spot that you sploited into behind the king portal, then quickly zoned out before his mage bolt killed you, healed up, gated back in. During the time you healed up and gated back in, your EB probably slowly killed prudent, and he started re-loading guk as well (as hes bound there). You both zoned back in around the same time and you got bugged out and he was invisible for your client.

He probably watched you run up to the EE area and solo the EE ph, wondering what the fuck you were doing, then hid in a corner in the water and started spamming bolts on you while you sat there not moving or responding, until you died.

Just a guess of course.

[Nips]

I've gotten that message before when after I kill a mob, he manages to get one more swing in (as your log shows too), and that last swing ends up killing me. Not sure why it happened to you with that much hp, sounds like a bug.

[lethdar]

You also left out key parts of "information" about the "situation", like how you were chain zoning in and out of the zone as you would attempt to EB prudent, gate, and zone out before his bolts killed you, re-sow yourself and gate back in to your bind behind the king portal that you sploited past.

Having not been there, but reading your post, and hearing various explanations from other people in zone at the time of what was going on, here is what probably actually happened, say if im wrong:

you ran to EE, EB'd prudent, gated to your bind spot that you sploited into behind the king portal, then quickly zoned out before his mage bolt killed you, healed up, gated back in. During the time you healed up and gated back in, your EB probably slowly killed prudent, and he started re-loading guk as well (as hes bound there). You both zoned back in around the same time and you got bugged out and he was invisible for your client.

He probably watched you run up to the EE area and solo the EE ph, wondering what the fuck you were doing, then hid in a corner in the water and started spamming bolts on you while you sat there not moving or responding, until you died.

Just a guess of course.

Pretty accusatory post by daef, xate sums it up nicely. There's always been a bug in emu where if you zone at nearly the same time as someone else is loading it will glitch and they will see you, but you can't even see them in the zone. On vztz it was possible to doublecheck if you were in danger via /whoing them and seeing what zone they were in on the world, but here you're kind of screwed if you get unlucky and it happens.

[lethdar]

Normally I wouldn't be so quick to make a claim, but it's pretty clear I had a bullshit death. I'm not one to run and make accusations quickly, I mean look at my history on these forums defending the server/GMs.

I don't want to think it was a GM death touch but I have(had) no alternative explanation that made any sort of sense. It is, iirc, the same message when being GM killed on other servers. Could I be wrong? Certainly, but the evidence suggests it's either a death touch or, as Uthgaard pointed out, some sort of hacker death that I didn't even know was possible.

Or well known bug that has occured on emu even a decade ago in guildwars days.

[Smedy]

Just gonna throw in my 5 cents on what might have happened.

Legit version:

Prudent called help, someone zoned in, got the super rare bug where some clients can't see you in the zone or in game.

Proceeded to kill Dafuins which would result in this "unseen hand" thing.

I don't know what triggers the bug, but it has happened to me at least twice on this server, and the only way you figure out that it has happened is when you have a friend in group and you say "why ain't you in my zone" and he says "I'm standing right beside you"

Conspiracy version:

Kringe didn't go out on new years eve and tried his new haxx on dafuins

[Vile]

zone cmd unseen hand

[Crazycloud]

If you're an old school EMU'er you would know of this bug. Back in the days (guildwars) (DoH) (Empire) etc etc.. this same bug would happen. It's rare.

[ZEROSUM]

and who killed 2pac and biggie smalls

just wanted to say rip pac and have had this bug

oh and

gate back in to your bind behind the king portal that you sploited past.

I graphically lag past that shit every time. You can't ghost across zonelines (at least in my exp), and ghosting past mobs isn't exploiting gm confirmed.

[Doublestep]

If you're an old school EMU'er you would know of this bug. Back in the days (guildwars) (DoH) (Empire) etc etc.. this same bug would happen. It's rare.

happened in DAoC too. Sucked when you'd be camping some spawn in Darkness Falls and an invisible friar starts beating the shit out of you.

[Steaks]

those are called hacks diggle

daoc had alot of hacks , radar etc

staff did nothing

[Doublestep]

Pretty sure the client issue happened too, we've had people invis from dragon raids before.

[nilbog]

Guess I'm not eqemu oldschool enough to have seen this before.

This has nothing to do with GMs, though :P If a GM death touches you, your NAME! is shouted to the zone.

Did some searching, and this vztz reference is all I've found so far. I believe, as well as others, that it has to do with zoning in/out simultaneously with others.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZOMZFobKeXIJ:emu.pwned.com/showthread.php%3F8567-Taking-a-Stand/page6+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[Dfn]

Well, good to know it's just a bug, albeit rare bug.

I remember this bug happening on VZTZ and Guildwars. I had never seen anyone actually be attacked or killed during it though. I figured if you couldn't see the other person then they couldn't see you.

[Traj]

ya i dont believe its a bug.. im guessing it is a hack and is just being covered up as a bug....

[Vile]

hack confirmed

[Doublestep]

ya i dont believe its a bug.. im guessing it is a hack and is just being covered up as a bug....

lol

[Nizzarr]

Sometimes when you zone at the same time as someone (this is most noticeable in groups) you get bugged out and do not see them in the zone (in group window, in /who, or visible on client), even though they can see you, and it stays that way till one of you zones in and back out (or relogs).

Sounds like thats what happened.

This has happened to me as well and its exactly what happens.

nothing to add here, this explain the bug fully.

Seems to happen when you enter a zone as someone else is zoning and the entity list is loaded before that person zoned in. if that makes any sense.

I have no knowledge about the zoning mechanics here but i'd assume if you made entities load last that wouldnt happen?

[Amelinda]

this box isn't like any corrupt box you may have played on in the past. don't be so fast to jump to GM corruption thx.

[Cast]

whoa guys - this all seems far too convenient for Prophet Cast

I believe you, DAEFUIN! I'm going to hack into the federal emulator records and scope out the possibly GMs who could have committed this atrocity. I'll send you some information and the data via carrier pidgeon. Look to the east at dawn.

I like how you have melee attack as your #1 hotkey, that usually indicates #1 player.

[Smedy]

Guess I'm not eqemu oldschool enough to have seen this before.

This has nothing to do with GMs, though :P If a GM death touches you, your NAME! is shouted to the zone.

Did some searching, and this vztz reference is all I've found so far. I believe, as well as others, that it has to do with zoning in/out simultaneously with others.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZOMZFobKeXIJ:emu.pwned.com/showthread.php%3F8567-Taking-a-Stand/page6+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

This is the exact same bug i am talking about earlier in this thread.

And i can confirm it's happening on this box, i've had more then once zoned into a zone where my teammate can't be seen in zone yet he can cast on me, hit me etc.

We played around with it for a little bit, when someone hits you when you're bugged (IE you cannot see them) nothing gets logged, however you do take damage.

High probability that dafuins was getting pvp'ed by someone that was bugged, and he didn't see his hp dropping (most people wouldn't pay attention to taking damage on the actual hp meter, most just check the log window.)

[Lazortag]

I think if most of us randomly died out of nowhere in the situation that was described, we'd probably have similar suspicions as Daefuin, so it's not really fair to make fun of him when he admitted pretty quickly that it was probably just a bug. I was kinda sorta hoping that hacks/GM corruption were involved just because that would be more interesting but sadly it seems he just got fucked over by a rare and unfortunate bug.

[Cast]

No, pretty sure I'm not a moron and would never have jumped to wild conclusions about the staffs integrity.

[Lazortag]

No, pretty sure I'm not a moron and would never have jumped to wild conclusions about the staffs integrity.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=487538&postcount=1

[Cast]

integrity [in-teg-ri-tee]  
Origin
in·teg·ri·ty   [in-teg-ri-tee] Show IPA
noun
1.
adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.

[Smedy]

http://www.project1999.org/forums/image.php?u=16944&dateline=1317614697

[Ninja]

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=487538&postcount=1

God damn, who writes forum posts THAT long.

[Cast]

God damn, who writes forum posts THAT long.
http://www.project1999.org/forums/image.php?u=16944&dateline=1317614697
sig
|
v

[Knuckle]

ive heard of different instances of the same zone and u can /who but ur in different instances.

[Cast]

http://lolscreenzors.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/post2.jpg?w=510

[veto]

When I would 5 box the halfling quest in beta, at least one toon would be invisible in the group (showing out of zone) and not seen in the zone, but when I'd alt tab to a different client that character would see the toon in the zone and in the group.. so yeah that sounds possible.

It happened everytime I'd kill myself on the quest giver with all 5 toons at once then loading into misty.

[Cast]

When I would 5 box the halfling quest in beta, at least one toon would be invisible in the group (showing out of zone) and not seen in the zone, but when I'd alt tab to a different client that character would see the toon in the zone and in the group.. so yeah that sounds possible.

It happened everytime I'd kill myself on the quest giver with all 5 toons at once then loading into misty.

hmm sounds like you were hacking the gibson

[Jadian]

Same thing happened to me in Guk last night.

Tried to figure out how taking 2/3 damage of my total HP killed me, then heard about this.

[Cast]

Same thing happened to me in Guk last night.

Tried to figure out how taking 2/3 damage of my total HP killed me, then heard about this.

great, now we've started a new pandemic of excuse makers for being bad at everquest.

heres the real reason you died - you have the brain of a marshmellow

[Srs Not Ames]

Call in the GM death touch squad

[georgie]

I remember this happening...can't remember if it happened on blue or live...but I've seen this bug before.

OH YEAH this is true. i did this on beta.

i was 2boxing monk/shaman i forgot how it happened but i zoned them both in and i couldn't see my monk on my shaman. i did "/" and it was just me in zone but on my monks window i could see the shaman and monk. and i killed him because i was curious. and it just happened to say slain by an unseen hand. so i bet anything that prudent did really kill him and couldnt see. this is a bug indeed

[georgie]

When I would 5 box the halfling quest in beta, at least one toon would be invisible in the group (showing out of zone) and not seen in the zone, but when I'd alt tab to a different client that character would see the toon in the zone and in the group.. so yeah that sounds possible.

It happened everytime I'd kill myself on the quest giver with all 5 toons at once then loading into misty.

yep samething happened on beta

[Reikerx]

Prudent is known boxer and hacker to the community.

[Hairybuttwhole]

gm's were often sk's on vz tz

[Jadian]

great, now we've started a new pandemic of excuse makers for being bad at everquest.

heres the real reason you died - you have the brain of a marshmellow


Ok. because 1300-900 = 0 right?

Retard.

[Cast]

Ok. because 1300-900 = 0 right?

Retard.

Clearly you could just post logs of this "incident" - not that anyone in their right mind actually cares but you. But you could... post logs... again though no one cares stop talking.

[Cast]

Prudent is known boxer and hacker to the community.

Yet he was an officer of Nihilum, until he left on his own accord because yall bad. Then the crying from Reiker + Nizzarr began.

[Bkab]

I went and timed the run with SoW from the portal to EE and there is no way you're getting there in under 20 seconds - and this is assuming he zoned in the milisecond after I did /who and he was able to get there AND somehow do a 900 damage nuke (680 damage lava bolt?). If you look at the death log it's pretty obvious he wasn't in zone long enough to make to the EE from Portal, or any zone-in for that matter, in the time between my last who and when I died - a matter of mere seconds.



fuckin nerd u seriously timed the run from ee to portal gky

[Bkab]

A MATTER OF MERE SECONDS

[Silikten]

Sometimes when you zone at the same time as someone (this is most noticeable in groups) you get bugged out and do not see them in the zone (in group window, in /who, or visible on client), even though they can see you, and it stays that way till one of you zones in and back out (or relogs).

Sounds like thats what happened.

This is true. Seen it happen before. You don't register the toon killing you so it's unseen. Odds are it was Prudent.

[Reikerx]

Yet he was an officer of Nihilum, until he left on his own accord because yall bad. Then the crying from Reiker + Nizzarr began.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsive_liar

Prudent begged to stay in the guild, but was removed because he was scamming his own guildmates by not letting anyone else take the manastone camp. Dude claimed he spent over 7 days straight there without a manastone until everyone got suspicious and started tracking his known box accounts who all just happened to have manastones. Not only does he break server rules and is dishonest to people in his own guild, he's also terrible at the game. But good grab there, buddy.

The fact that you took him and other known terribad players like Gosu and Engelbert just shows how desperate Holocaust is to the entire server. Your guild is a joke, and I don't understand how decent people/players like Gongshow can put up with it.

[Doublestep]

fellas fellas

you're BOTH terrible

[Doublestep]

Cast can't kite and you can't pick a proper time to heal and a proper time to nuke

[gloinz]

Cast can't kite and you can't pick a proper time to heal and a proper time to nuke

paladins do all of the above

[SamwiseRed]

Well met, noble Paladin.

[Bkab]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsive_liar

Prudent begged to stay in the guild, but was removed because he was scamming his own guildmates by not letting anyone else take the manastone camp. Dude claimed he spent over 7 days straight there without a manastone until everyone got suspicious and started tracking his known box accounts who all just happened to have manastones. Not only does he break server rules and is dishonest to people in his own guild, he's also terrible at the game. But good grab there, buddy.

The fact that you took him and other known terribad players like Gosu and Engelbert just shows how desperate Holocaust is to the entire server. Your guild is a joke, and I don't understand how decent people/players like Gongshow can put up with it.

Hahahah "scamming his own guild" because he wouldn't give you the manastones that he put in all the time/effort for? Good lord you guys are bigger vaginas than I already thought. Get the fucking camp before him if you want it so bad. I don't know how anyone could want to be guilded with people like reika who cry when others don't hand him or other random_nihilum_scrub001 loot who would just waste it (same situation with lovely when they were all in IF). Prudent is 10x the player you or anyone else in Nihilum is.

[Doublestep]

pvp champ confirmed 10x a man than reika or cast combined

[Reikerx]

Hahahah "scamming his own guild" because he wouldn't give you the manastones that he put in all the time/effort for? Good lord you guys are bigger vaginas than I already thought. Get the fucking camp before him if you want it so bad. I don't know how anyone could want to be guilded with people like reika who cry when others don't hand him or other random_nihilum_scrub001 loot who would just waste it. Prudent is 10x the player you or anyone else in Nihilum is.

Holocaust gonna keep on twisting what's actually written and read what they want to read. I never once said that I expected him to hand me loot.

There's a difference between expecting someone to give you the loot they worked for, and someone straight up lying to everyone to solely benefit themselves. It's not about loot, but about integrity. Someone who fabricates information to deny a crucial camp to their guild to gear up their illegal bot army is not a team player. If you want people like that in your guild, go for it. It may explain why your guild has no clear leadership and is falling apart.

Prudent may be 10x the player I am, but only because he boxes like 30 characters.

[Ninja]

Prudent may be 10x the player I am, but only because he boxes like 30 characters.

That was funny.

[Bkab]

Are you trying to say Prudent hires illegal mexicans to play his bot army?

[Reikerx]

I think he's from Nicaragua; slave labor is probably legal there.

[Tombom]

I think he's from Nicaragua; slave labor is probably legal there.

confirmed bigot/racist, please ban, if i saw this kind of talk in global OOC i would /q and uninstall

[Bkab]

confirmed bigot/racist, please ban, if i saw this kind of talk in global OOC i would /q and uninstall

[SamwiseRed]

damn dere be some sensitive kids on har

[Lazortag]

...

The fact that you took him and other known terribad players like Gosu and Engelbert just shows how desperate Holocaust is to the entire server. Your guild is a joke, and I don't understand how decent people/players like Gongshow can put up with it.

I dislike Holocaust just as much as the next guy, but don't act like your guild can claim any moral high ground when you've used exploits to kill raid bosses, and then on one of those occasions even made a bug thread asking for the encounter to be made easier. There are lots of great people in Nihilum. People ask the same question you just asked: how can they put up with it?

[Steaks]

stop bumping this with stupid comments no one cares what you think lazorfag

[Nizzarr]

I dislike Holocaust just as much as the next guy, but don't act like your guild can claim any moral high ground when you've used exploits to kill raid bosses, and then on one of those occasions even made a bug thread asking for the encounter to be made easier. There are lots of great people in Nihilum. People ask the same question you just asked: how can they put up with it?

List those exploits?

[Lazortag]

List those exploits?

They've been discussed thoroughly in other threads and it would just be disingenuous for you to act like you're unaware of them. See here: www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58052&

Lovely even admitted Naggy wasn't working as intended.

[Nizzarr]

and thats exploiting how?

[Lazortag]

Well if you don't have enough players/bards to kill Naggy and so you resort to a method that didn't work in classic, that shouldn't work here, to trivialize the encounter, without ever reporting it, I believe that would be exploiting, yes.

[Steaks]

all you need to kill naggy is just a bunch of stupid mages who think they are good at eq and naggy falls over and dies

[Bkab]

List those exploits?


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[ZEROSUM]

I have no knowledge about the zoning mechanics here but i'd assume if you made entities load last that wouldnt happen?

That would perhaps help the problem. The zoning process is kinda jumbled so it mightn't be as easy as it sounds. There are instances of re-arranging the zoning order that have worked in the past though.

On the stock emu code (maybe not anymore, but for years), pets would pretty much instantly zone over before the client was ready to complete the process. For PvP servers like vz/tz, sons of zek, etc. they would copypasta that part of the code to a later part in the zone process, and then pets would zone "with" the client.

[Dojii]

Being slain by an unseen hand

can also occur when you load in a zone, but some players in the zone aren't connected in your zone with you. I've seen this happen about 5 times total but its just a fluke, when you connect into a zone, some players that are already in the zone wont appear to you.

it is very rare.

but they can also slain you. and you are slain by the unseen hand. Can also happen when people rain a zone line and you're still connecting into the zone.

YW.

[Tombom]

stop bumping this with stupid comments no one cares what you think lazorfag

i lol'd at lazorfag

[Dojii]

i lol'd at lazorfag

if you lol I lol.

[Tombom]

if you lol I lol.

you lol i lol we all lol for butthole

[Dojii]

you lol i lol we all lol for butthole

hahahahahax

http://awazo.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/2009C468_3_n3229_950x650.jpg

[Lazortag]

Lazorfag lol

yes very witty indeed

[Doublestep]

Geegooooo~

[Dojii]

Lazorfat

is better. I don't know who he is either but he trollin trolls. Kid yous a goon but wat a goon to a goblin.

Mutha fucka i'll eat you up and leave your bones in droga soldia.

jk laugh now cry later.

[Hairybuttwhole]

lol

[Hairybuttwhole]

dojii is the fireman, even his elven locks don't burn in the flames of any thread