Raid Changes

[nilbog]

In the interests of making everyone happy.. a variance of spawn time can be added to particular NPCs. Currently, an issue with raid targets is their predictable spawn time, which is creating all sorts of drama. If the majority of the players would agree upon a set of variance or raid engagement rules, this would be much preferable to a GM mandated rotation.

Here is a suggestion by Nizzarr.

Originally Posted by Nizzarr View Post
how about setting some easy rules?

-random spawn time + or - 24 hours(48 hours fluctuation) on 7 days spawn, + or - 12 hours on 3 days spawns. + or - 3 hours on 12 hours spawns.

-first guild to have 15 players present after a spawn has 120 minutes to engage, if wipe/unreadiness after 120 minute and other guild has 15 players ready then other guild can engage.

-15 players is debatable but it should be the bottom requirement to claim a shot.

These rules are easily enforceable, has less gm interraction and all in all will make poeple happy. If you want to kill shit, then be ready when it matters.

You can change these rules as you see fit, but the bottom line should be the same.

I want some spawn competition, thats what made EQ a great game. if you take this away you're taking away a big deal of what EQ was.

and excuse my french.

Solutions are what we are looking for.. and this has been the best one I have seen proposed. Let's get rid of the rotation asap ok?

Discuss. Tweak this. Suggest things.

[Hasbinbad]

This post is just to get my feet wet in this conversation, in the name of tweaking policy before it becomes policy. I don't agree with all aspects of this proposal but I like the spirit of it a lot better than the rotation we have now. I need to point out that with policy stating that "first guild to be in zone with 15 at spawn" means that 2 or more guilds could possibly have 15 people in the spawn area at the earliest possible time, with neither guild giving up people at the spawn. This leads to the same issue we have now. I don't yet see a way around it, but I am thinking hard. Yes, I know you can smell the smoke. Ideas?

[Gildiss Gram]

Raid leader dice rolls?

[Deanob]

The above is great, we should work on that idea and go from there.

Just enforce the play nice policy ontop of a random spawn, FFA system....

If there are any grieving, harassment, training, KSing then strict punishment would be issued. Simply put, if your not there first go away.

[NergalTD]

As much as I like this idea, it doesn't address the fundamental issue that was raised in the other thread.

Prior to the enforced rotation, the rule was basically, "First in the zone with a raid force"...and the guilds in question were camping out 2, 4, 14 hours ahead on anticipated spawns.

If we switched to the method in this thread, the guilds would just go back to camping for days ahead of time, then some GM would have to come in and resolve who was here first...when both guilds had 15+ in the zone for more than 12 hours.

The root issue is not having enough raid targets and we're just going to have to deal with it until content expands to meet demand.

[Deanob]

As much as I like this idea, it doesn't address the fundamental issue that was raised in the other thread.

Prior to the enforced rotation, the rule was basically, "First in the zone with a raid force"...and the guilds in question were camping out 2, 4, 14 hours ahead on anticipated spawns.

If we switched to the method in this thread, the guilds would just go back to camping for days ahead of time, then some GM would have to come in and resolve who was here first...when both guilds had 15+ in the zone for more than 12 hours.

The root issue is not having enough raid targets and we're just going to have to deal with it until content expands to meet demand.


FFA means FFA not "First in the zone with a raid force".

Guilds could camp a 2 day -/+ spawn timer as long as they want doesnt mean that own anything. Come time to gathering, buff and engage is what defines FFA.

Just dont be pricks about it. If we can have a mutual agreement on a play nice policy there shouldn't be a problem. Otherwise Ban Hammer will come out on entire guilds (temporary of course).

[Wenai]

It is up to the community to discuss this and come up with ideas on how to tweak this. Please be sure to discuss details of when/how a guild can "claim" an NPC. We want specifics. Example: Guild A mobilizes in SolB and begins clearing FGs. Guild B notices Guild A and rushes to the scene. At what point does Guild A start this "120 Minute Window"? As soon as they clear all the FGs? As soon as they begin clearing the FGs? A certain spot in the clearing process? We need ideas/details for ALL encounters.

A simple "First to Engage" isn't going to work. So come up with some rulesets that will allow you guys to police yourself.

[Matrim]

This is a much* better solution. Variance in spawn would keep guilds on their toes and add the challenge of rapid mobilization. The first guild to respond in force should* get the mob, not the guild that has sat AFK in the zone all day.

[guineapig]

The root issue is not having enough raid targets and we're just going to have to deal with it until content expands to meet demand.

How many people do you guys have exactly in your two guilds???

Not enough to meet demand? You have got to be kidding me.

Think back to live for a moment and how many players there were online on an average night. How many raid capable guilds did you have on your server?

This isn't about meeting demand. This is about greed. Certain people in both guilds simply want to have the very best items available currently in game in each slot and probably an alt or three with the very best tradable gear in the game.

I don't see why the GM's or the rest of the community should bend over backwards just so a few people can feel like gods among men before the next expansion comes out.

Admit it, some of you are simply rushing. It's a big race to see who's the first to have X amount of hit points or X int or whatever.

If you can already beat all the bosses with 1.5 groups of players than all this gear hoarding is not a need, it's a personal desire and nobody is having it.

Just my opinion.

[Onadan]

I think the timer should start as soon as Guild B has the 15 man claim limit in the zone.

[Deanob]

Thats not going to work, otherwise were back at the problem where one guild kills FG hours prior to having a raid force.

It should be first to engange > NO KS'ing otherwise punishment is placed. Simple.

Eg. A,B,C guilds have scouts. naggy spawns randomly withing 2 day timer. All three guilds head to SolB. A guild is first to engage has full right to the mob. If B and C guilds attempt to engage at any time, will be reported and dealt with. Everyone in the guild will be held accountable for their actions including the members who were online. It will let the guilds think twice before they attempt to KS a target...

[Wenai]

Thats not going to work, otherwise were back at the problem where one guild kills FG hours prior to having a raid force.

It should be first to engange > NO KS'ing otherwise punishment is placed. Simple.

Eg. A,B,C guilds have scouts. naggy spawns randomly withing 2 day timer. All three guilds head to SolB. A guild is first to engage has full right to the mob. If B and C guilds attempt to engage at any time, will be reported and dealt with. Everyone in the guild will be held accountable for their actions including the members who were online. It will let the guilds think twice before they attempt to KS a target...
Problem. We don't want to be involved at all. So you guys need to police yourselves and come up with a system in which there is a definitive claim or else we are back at square one.

[Onadan]

Thats not going to work, otherwise were back at the problem where one guild kills FG hours prior to having a raid force.

It should be first to engange > NO KS'ing otherwise punishment is placed. Simple.

Eg. A,B,C guilds have scouts. naggy spawns randomly withing 2 day timer. All three guilds head to SolB. A guild is first to engage has full right to the mob. If B and C guilds attempt to engage at any time, will be reported and dealt with. Everyone in the guild will be held accountable for their actions including the members who were online. It will let the guilds think twice before they attempt to KS a target...

Who cares if they have 15 people in zone and start clearing FG's? If they dont engage in 120min/dont have the force, then you can bypass them and thank them for clearing the FGs.

[Wenai]

Who cares if they have 15 people in zone and start clearing FG's? If they dont engage in 120min/dont have the force, then you can bypass them and thank them for clearing the FGs.
The question is... At what point should the 120 minute clock start?

PS: Keep things on topic. This thread is for discussing possible alternatives to the rotation not a complaint thread about it's existance. Both sides were given plenty of time to co-exist and come up with your own standards.

[Reiyz]

If we're going the 1 wipe/next persons turn method, then the 120 minutes start as soon as the first FG is dead imo.

[Zarniwooop]

On my server it pretty much boiled down to if a guild cleared to the spawn location and was waiting with a raid-capable force, they had the spawn.

If one guild was sitting at every single spawn, defying the possibility of life out of EQ, then other guilds simply said screw this and went after it anyways. If there is a true no-life guild on the server, then rotation is the only answer.

Rotation is the only reasonable solution to two equally capable raid forces desiring the same mob time and time again. And they should reach that conclusion themselves after a few months of fighting over every single spawn. If not, then there's no way to stop the headaches than to just enforce it on them.

As someone that plays live at the very highest end game, and plays here in a casual guild, I presently have no vested interest right now. But, someday I will.

At the VERY LEAST it needs to be civilized within reason. Whoever is in the zone clearing to naggy with a raid capable force, should have the spawn. That doesn't mean 6 people clear to the spot and hold it while others exp on alts. If they can log the other 10 in before another guild is gathered at the clear spot then great, they win, but if not, then they lose it.


The bottom line is this, there is no reasonable solution unless you're dealing with reasonable people. As there is contention, you are not dealing with reasonable people with these two guilds. Until they decide to be reasonable and strictly abide by the above, then this is pointless discussion.

[Zarniwooop]

If we're going the 1 wipe/next persons turn method, then the 120 minutes start as soon as the first FG is dead imo.

This is also complete garbage. Then the other guild comes in and gets to wait for 2 hours then they have to get out?

Whoever has the camp when naggy spawns with a raid capable force gets it. If naggy is up for 30 minutes unengaged, then they lose it. Unfortunately, this leads to guilds "fast-timing" and then doing things like "oh, we thought the time was up our leader told us so and so we ks'd them".

Again, there is no rational, drama-free solution between equally capable guilds other than rotation.

[Hasbinbad]

I don't see this working for the reasons I outlined with my first response to this thread, and that others have echoed. At this point, I can pretty much pledge that if this system gets put in place, we're going to have a raid force in the dragon's lairs at the earliest possible spawn time, every time, and I'm absolutely sure trans would do the same thing. Back to square one.

[messiah_b]

My two ideas

1) Multi-spawns. Set up naggy / voxx etc to respawn every 24 hours, but break out bans for any person / guild that kills it more than once every 7 days. You could set up database development to handle the monitoring of this by adding tracking factions to the raid mobs and keep change logs on these factions on a per character / guild / ip basis to ensure that each person / guild only gets one shot at loot each week.

It would be a little bit of development work up front, but it can't be more than babysitting the guilds every week. Also this would allow up and coming guilds shots to learn and enjoy these encounters without impeding vet raiders. Also would allow for more friendly competition where the guilds can track their kills every week on a kill board or whatever.

2) Remove all raid mobs for the next 2 months to let these guys get perspective on how stupid their dickwaving's are.

[Otto]

Spawn variance will just result in 24 hour camps at targets like what was happening before, which for some reason on this server warrants you the right to get first attempt on said mob.

If you want spawn variance, it'd have to be 7 days with a +-48 hour variance in an attempt to deter camping raid mobs.

[Blaine Brokenhammer]

I dont mind the Idea but a 48 hour window is simply to small....I think if you want to have no interaction then you keep your basic ideas but make the spawn window larger.

At 48 hours both guilds will just camp there with 15 people and then youll be left with sorting that crap out again ...basically the same spot your at now....

Might I suggest maybe a spawn timer between 5-10 days and make a window of popping that is large enough to detur 24/7 camping by the guilds....And yes i realize this means less overalll spawns ...but so what ......

Blaine Brokenhammer

[Keystone]

How hard would it be to just code a zonewide announcement or some shit with the timer / turn change on engage. Like "A Dragon Roars" (nag spawned) , then 25 min later "Time's running out" (5min warning), 30min after spawn a "TOO SLOW, NEXT".. Yes this obviously isn't classic but neither is this rotatiion bullshit.

[Keystone]

Or what messiah said, we could instance everything, put in some solo quests for levelling quicker, and lets give everyone the same set armor as soon as they get level 50. Then everyone can kill Onyxia errr nagafen.

[Wenai]

I don't think you would see 15 people there at all times. Think about that for a second.

Naggy is killed Sunday at 12:00 PM EST

He can spawn any time between:

Friday at 12:00 PM EST

AND

Tuesday at 12:00 PM EST

Factor in that Vox and CT will be on the same variance. Do you know how many overlapping spawn times will be going on? Unless you have 45 People that are willing to do nothing but sit at spawn points 24 hours a day ... no guild is going to be able to hold every spawn. Factor in that people are going to want to be farming Plane of Fear gear. Factor in PoHate and PoSky being open eventually. Are there going to be 15 more people sitting in PoHate waiting for Inny? What about Sky?

I think the Variance is a very.. very good option. Details need to be worked out by community in a manner that people don't need to worry about KSing if you are the first group of people there.

[Wonton]

Spawn variance will just result in 24 hour camps at targets like what was happening before, which for some reason on this server warrants you the right to get first attempt on said mob.

If you want spawn variance, it'd have to be 7 days with a +-48 hour variance in an attempt to deter camping raid mobs.

Spawn variance will just have X guild camping raid mobs that much longer.

First to engage I believe SUPPORTS "self-policing." It's not hard to see who is first to engage.

I don't agree with this whole image of us having to, "find a solution and stick to it" Wenai..

[Onadan]

The question is... At what point should the 120 minute clock start?

PS: Keep things on topic. This thread is for discussing possible alternatives to the rotation not a complaint thread about it's existance. Both sides were given plenty of time to co-exist and come up with your own standards.


The post before I said the 120min clock should start when they get 15 men in zone.

[Kutles]

I think if we were to do this, a 24 hour random spawn timer or even a 48 hour random spawn timer would still result in people "camping" a raid mob.

It seems that we have adhered far too strictly to this magical 7 day respawn timer like it was spelled out by God himself, for dragons and gods respawn timers. If we are already going to meddle with the spawn timer to appease the masses, why don't we lift this artificial 7 day timer and make it anywhere from as short as say a 3 day timer to maximum of a 11 day timer (7 days on average) and anything else inbetween as a possibility. Heck, you could do anywhere from 5 days to 12, 4 days to 11, 3 days to 20, I don't know, but at least it would be random. Yes, if it was nearing the final days of possibility for the respawn timer (whatever we decide on), we would see the guilds coming out of the woodwork to stake claim to that mob and we would have the same issue we had before (who had 15 people or whatever there first), but at least there would be some randomness in those first days of the respawn timer, and provoke some level of competition, instead of metaphorically camping Raster of Guk for 36 hours.

Just one idea. Trash it if you wish.

[Takshaka]

I know this doesn't really help with the idea of catching who tagged the raid mob first but to deal with people just sitting in the zone for far too long with a raid force how about just enabling some anti AFK code that disconnects you after 1 hour of AFK or something like that?

Another thing that could be useful is to move people to the safe point that the succor spell does(I know succor is not classic) if they disconnect via AFK in certain zones. This would prevent people from allowing themselves to disconnect at spawn location of raid mob and then just logging back in.

You could then have a policy where if someone stayed connected and in the same zone for more than 12 hours(you could make this longer) straight you could slap a temp 1 day ban/suspension on the account. If someone stays connected for more than 12 hours straight in the same zone then that person is either using some sort of macro software or they need to have a break from EQ forced upon them.

[Zexa]

Classic EQ 2: Cruise Control

I'm sarcastic 95% of the time, but I'm very glad to see you getting involved on how we can find a fix to this situation Nilbog.

Unfortunately, it seems the Classic EQ concept is already long gone. I like a lot of the ideas proposed above to help avoid conflicts between guild, but it's another step away from the Classic EQ experience. I'm sure a good part of the reason SoE implemented spawn variance is because of this. They also eventually added instances to completely avoid it.

A big missing classic feature is patch day raids. I can understand the need to change the spawn times of raid mobs to be static, regardless of server resets, when the server was rather unstable and with the often reboots, but now that we seem a little more stable would it be possible to revert back to the classic system? This could add slightly more content for us all and it would usually go to the guild quicker to mobilize.

I'm just getting really torn up about how the end game is progressing(or not progressing at all). The lack of content is putting a lot of stress on all the people who are just waiting for new content.

[Supreme]

Solution

Change spawn timer to be ever 2 hours on raid bosses

Turn in Chaos Books and just fight it out.

[Wonton]

ok

[Zexa]

Turn in Chaos Books and just fight it out.

Holy God...I think we may have just come to an agreement between guilds!

[Supreme]

I support Full Loot PVP

[Finawin]

If a guild camps a zone, 24/7, who are you to say they don't deserve the spawn?

I sure as hell won't be doing that. With other raid mobs on a variance timer, I don't see this happening much at all.

The priority of the whining seems to come from casuals vs. hardcores, as usual.

Effort put in is usually proportionate to reward. You can't punish people for being dedicated, whatever your opinion on their dedication is.

[messiah_b]

Or what messiah said, we could instance everything, put in some solo quests for levelling quicker, and lets give everyone the same set armor as soon as they get level 50. Then everyone can kill Onyxia errr nagafen.

Im glad someone got it.

My second one I believe is a valid solution. Honestly this server was way better when it didn't have forums. Close them all except for bugs / exploits and be done with it.

[Hasbinbad]

I don't think you would see 15 people there at all times. Think about that for a second.
I have. I have also seen first hand that Transcendence has proven that they will sit in a zone for hours and hours and hours on the off chance that they may get a target. Given that they KNEW that if they could amass 15 people in an area and get the raid target for sure, I see them spending 48 hours no problem. I see us doing the same thing, and then when the target spawns, and we both have 15 people rdy to go, it's back to square one.

Factor in that Vox and CT will be on the same variance. Do you know how many overlapping spawn times will be going on? Unless you have 45 People that are willing to do nothing but sit at spawn points 24 hours a day ... no guild is going to be able to hold every spawn.
Trans is a ZERG guild Wenai, there is *NO* debating this. This system OBVIOUSLY favors a guild that can have 3 rotations of 15 people locking down 3 spawns, which they have. It doesn't matter if you don't think they would do this, they CAN and that means that this system is exploitable.

Factor in that people are going to want to be farming Plane of Fear gear. Factor in PoHate and PoSky being open eventually. Are there going to be 15 more people sitting in PoHate waiting for Inny? What about Sky?
So maybe we get one target here and there whenever we can muster a multiday force for sky and they don't feel like it? Obviously this is fair.

I think the Variance is a very.. very good option. Details need to be worked out by community in a manner that people don't need to worry about KSing if you are the first group of people there.
It's a very, very good option for transcendence. People give them way too much credit for wanting to share. They want all the mobs, just like we do, but instead of wanting to compete for the rights, they have whined and sniveled and cried until big brother comes in and gestapos the whole situation. You're oiling the squeaky wheel Wenai; don't pretend to righteousness.

[Zarniwooop]

The guilds will not see the rationale for rotating. You have really no choice here. The spawn timer variance changes nothing. Setting up complicated rules changes nothing.

I personally would like to see this:

1. If you see a guild with 15+ people camped in a zone waiting on a spawn, LET THEM EFFING HAVE IT OR WIPE! They can't camp everything at once (see point 2).

2. If they DO try to camp everything (more than 1 15 person raid force in different zones), they have zero camp rights and at this point a GM should force them to choose unless the complainant does not have a 15 person raid force in one of the two zones themselves. This one is the tricky one. I would not lose sleep at seeing this rule cut out as it would also require GM involvement.

3. If a guild wipes on an attempt, the other guild must wait for the mob to fully reset and regen before engaging. If the other guild was in the zone, or at the spawn camp at the time of the wipe, they have lost their rights to the spawn. Don't lag-wipe another guild. Basically any guild that violates this, and requires GM supervision should be put on forcible rotation and left there for the good of all.

4. If a guild consistently violates the spirit of these rules, punish them in terms of spawn rights. They won't care about anything else.



This too will not stop GMs from needing to babysit. That was part of oriignal EQ and all EQ until instancing. The only method to make GMs sane would be a rotation unless the guild leaders came to a private agreement on what is rational and what rules they could agree on.

[Hasbinbad]

I think if we were to do this, a 24 hour random spawn timer or even a 48 hour random spawn timer would still result in people "camping" a raid mob.

It seems that we have adhered far too strictly to this magical 7 day respawn timer like it was spelled out by God himself, for dragons and gods respawn timers. If we are already going to meddle with the spawn timer to appease the masses, why don't we lift this artificial 7 day timer and make it anywhere from as short as say a 3 day timer to maximum of a 11 day timer (7 days on average) and anything else inbetween as a possibility. Heck, you could do anywhere from 5 days to 12, 4 days to 11, 3 days to 20, I don't know, but at least it would be random. Yes, if it was nearing the final days of possibility for the respawn timer (whatever we decide on), we would see the guilds coming out of the woodwork to stake claim to that mob and we would have the same issue we had before (who had 15 people or whatever there first), but at least there would be some randomness in those first days of the respawn timer, and provoke some level of competition, instead of metaphorically camping Raster of Guk for 36 hours.

Just one idea. Trash it if you wish.

This is the best variant on the variance solution I have seen, but I still don't put it past trans to camp ct for 5 days in rotation with 15 people in the zone.

[Zarniwooop]

And one additional point, all highly contested spawns with timers > 1 day should have variance in their timers.

[douglas1999]

How about full blown free for all with the caveat that GM's get to utterly ignore all raid-related disputes and petitions. I don't think there exists a system that won't ultimately be violated, so I feel like this would be the best way. I'm not even in a guild so I don't really have an agenda here.

[Supreme]

just do what WOW did with plat.

Give players a 30 min respawn on all bosses and dilute the encounters/loot to the point that no one cares who or when a boss is killed.

[NergalTD]

How many people do you guys have exactly in your two guilds???

Not enough to meet demand? You have got to be kidding me.
Dunno how many people we're talking about...I'm not in either guild. It's simple common sense though. If there were enough high-end targets to go around, there wouldn't be conflict over them.

This isn't about meeting demand. This is about greed. Certain people in both guilds simply want to have the very best items available currently in game in each slot and probably an alt or three with the very best tradable gear in the game.
Partial agreement...it's not entirely about demand.

I don't see why the GM's or the rest of the community should bend over backwards just so a few people can feel like gods among men before the next expansion comes out.
Complete agreement. However, whether we agree with them or not, the Devs feel this issue is bad enough that they have to address it. There's going to be peace in the sandbox even if they have to wield a hammer to do it. I don't necessarily think the current solution is good, or ulimately viable long term...but I certianly understand why they've gone down this road.

I think spawn timer variance can be an answer, but the variance has to be sufficiently large that it effectively discourages spawn camping. The definition of 'sufficiently large' is open to community debate...

[karsten]

I too am happy to see that Nilbog A: ultimately don't think much of a rotation system and B: is genuinely searching for solutions to remedy the issue in a manner that involves the last amount of their involvement. I'm also happy that he's willing to discuss it with both sides of the issue instead of just talking with one side and then handing rules down from on high and threatening people with bans if they don't stick to it.

A spawn time variance is a WAY better system than what we have now, and I'm all for it. Wenai's suggestion of allowing for a 48 hour variance is a solid amount of time assuming that we'll still get the same number of pops say, in a four week period, which I think he has indicated will still be the case.

The danger of a guild just camping something for 48 hours or even 96 is a real one -- given that I've seen trancscendence already camp something for 14+ hours. This could be remedied with a decision regarding engagement, and a variance on the spawn timer should still allow for the more organized guild to be "ready" sooner than the unorganized one, regardless of who had, say, 12 people there first.

If the rule was who is first to engage, given a variable spawn timer, the feedback i've gotten from GMs that i've talked to is that it'd be a pain in the ass to figure out, and even more of a pain in the ass to enforce -- I can follow that. Thus, my proposal is to have a variable spawn timer, and have whoever gets the xp gets the kill, as long as that force had at least 12 people inzone for dragons and 18 inzone for gods.

Or, and I'm a big fan of this: let's fucking guildwar. IB has better gear, Transc has more players -- let's do it up

[Hasbinbad]

A spawn time variance is a WAY better system than what we have now, and I'm all for it.
Gotta disagree with you here good buddy, I think you're looking at this situation through rose-tinted glasses.
The danger of a guild just camping something for 48 hours or even 96 is a real one.
This is exactly the problem. They *will* do this, and we all know it.
Thus, my proposal is to have a variable spawn timer, and have whoever gets the xp gets the kill, as long as that force had at least 12 people inzone for dragons and 18 inzone for gods.
This sounds better than a straight rotation, but I still think it is unfair because obviously if both guilds had 12 or 18 in the zone, the truth is that IB is better geared out and would probably be able to more effectively assemble a KS group than Trans. This specifically is the type of unfairness I think the GM's are trying to avoid, whether we agree with it or not.

[Greldor]

I do not understand how a 120 timer could be enforced or tracked outside of a GM babysitter. Which is, again, not what anyone wants.

I think that variable spawn times can help.

I definatly think that there is absolutely nothing that can be done to prevent determined individuals from exploiting or bending the rules of whatever system you all decide to implement.

Let's be realistic here, if you do not want to babysit, then implement whatever variable spawn rates you would like and punish anyone who killsteals a mob under a FFA/first hit policy.

The above solution leaves any GM interaction to a minimum and allows them to police most situations by reviewing logs.

edit: Furthermore, for all those claiming this or that is unfair, I think it is more unfair to the project for us to be involving GMs in our guild politics when it is already clear that only one raid can loot the mob.

[Wonton]

I do not understand how a 120 timer could be enforced or tracked outside of a GM babysitter. Which is, again, not what anyone wants.

This is true. but do GMs really wanna volunteer for that?

[Pikle]

I'm pretty new on this server but have tons of EQ and MMO experience. So far I've noticed a lot of people complaining about high end loot often. I understand this, EQ is a gear based game and rightly so. Our guild isn't even close to being able to raid anything other than upper guk and Najena, but I will put in my 2 cents.

So far I feel that the variance is the by far the best option. As I remember on our live server (The Rathe) later on we ended up having a rotation and forums specifically for raid mobs. Early on it was all about who got there first and who engaged first. If a guild rushed it and started the fight early then wiped, the other guild would come in behind them and mop up. Sometimes they would be nice and allow or help the other guild to CR and try again. But of course that comes down to guild management.

The issue of camping a spawn is the same everywhere you go. I have seen people fight over the mobs at the entrance of guk, so I can't imagine why this wouldn't happen everywhere you go. Now here's logically how it will go down. Most of the upper guilds (right now there may only be 2 capable of raiding but this will change in the following month or so) will have a man or two in the zone waiting to see if something will spawn, If a raid guild really wants to keep 15 people there to make sure they get CT or whoever when they spawn, that's great for them. That allows the rest of us to get other camps that would normally not be open. How often do lvl 50's come into any zone, whether it be Najena, CT or Sola and just own whatever they want when they want. SO having 15 of them waiting deep in solb or in fear helps out some of the little guys who are still working their way up. If a guild could honestly put 15 people at each raid mob and wait for them to spawn, then by all means go ahead. But don't just have 15 people in Solb farming whatever, you need to have them ready to engage Naggy or clearing the FG's for it to be considered your camp. If you have 1 rogue or monk sitting deep inside and the rest of your crew camping king or stone spider, that doesn't count. If you have a raid force ready to take down a mob when it spawns, it's yours. If another guild is doing the same thing, then it's a battle. This is a lot of what old EQ was all about, that innate competition between guilds to get there first and to kill the Dragon/God. I knew guilds that would recruit a few extra wizards just so they could mobilize and KS anyone. This method does have it's drawbacks but a guild should be able to mobilize quickly to make sure they can get mobs too. Once Hate, Sky and Kunark open up this won't be as big of an issues, although I assume there will be more guilds capable of taking those zones.

Our new guild Gothic Circle is going to be nice and polite about mobs and camps. So I suggest we all work together to help each other out or it's going to get real dirty and the top guilds will end up getting banned from fighting over loot.

ALSO guild wars aren't a bad option, was in many of them in live and it's amazing. I suggest if you have never been in one, start one :) I do say if 2 guilds are giving the GM's trouble they should put them at guild war, this clears up all the problems of camping. Only 1 guild can hold a zone at any given time. If you are at war with each other you aren't hanging out in Lguk or Fear together you are killing each other (unless you are a pansy).

Camps and mobs should be simple, I think the variance of the spawn time should solve a lot of the issues. I think someone did bring up a valid point about server down time, it was awesome when you could get on right when the servers came back up in live and head straight for whatever mob you wanted. It really was a great way to level the playing field.

[Hasbinbad]

1. If you see a guild with 15+ people camped in a zone waiting on a spawn, LET THEM EFFING HAVE IT OR WIPE! They can't camp everything at once (see point 2).

I like your spirit, and I think we can all agree. The problem is that trans showed up for a dragon 14 hours early.

They are a zerg guild. If they want to have a rotation of 15 people in a zone at any given time, they have the numbers to do so. What is to stop them from killing nagafen and then leaving 15 people in the zone for a week until he spawns again?

The fact that this is not probable has nothing to do with the fact that it is possible. If it is possible and the system allows it, there is nothing to stop them from doing so. If there is nothing to stop them, there is no reason they shouldn't, and then this becomes a goal. If it happens, no other guild on the server would get a shot at any mob they decide to lock down, ever.

I cannot see how anyone feels this is the best solution.

[Dartagnan]

Spawn variance is not the solution. If you intend for this server to be classic then you need to stick with a classic structure.

Spawn variance is not classic. Dump it.

[Fanwen]

Spawn Variation is not going to work. There is going to be camping for long periods of time until the mob spawns. As stated by other Trans will do it. If you want it that way then i think you only hurting yourselves.

You claim they are a zerg guild. maybe they are maybe they arent. The fact is they have numbers and can perma camp anything so you will never get a spawn. So would you rather do variable spawns or a rotation so you can get a spawn.

Or is there another idea out there to solve this issue? I personally think the rotation is by far the easiest and most fair for both parties. It worked on Emarr for years. As we open up new content it will only get better as there will be many more targets to focus on.

This is a short term problem as we attempt to release new content and not have to continue to deal with conflicts between these two guilds because they cant get along.

[Desaiv]

The problem is the predictability of the spawns, by Nilbog's own admission. The question at hand in regards to variance is what is a good time table. The answer, in part, is how long would a guild be willing to "camp a raid boss" which is always problematic.

A simple solution: Make all raid encounter spawns random with respect to their classic respawn rate. For example, a weekly spawn like Naggy, change it to 0-7 day spawn, that is, it can spawn randomly up until a week after it previously died.

PROS:
1)People cannot really camp the spawn, this would allow proper competition to ensue.

-- I believe that both guilds in question have enough respect for each other to allow a guild that is there first in force a fair first attempt at the raid boss.

First in force would be defined as a guild with the proper people to kill the raid boss, hence no more than a few minutes (10?) would be allowed for them to make their attempt once the trash is cleared. Previous posts minimum requirements would fit here for the numbers of what could currently be defined as a minimum force strong enough to handle the encounter (10 for vox/naggy, 15 for CT).

Obviously if the guild wipes on their attempt they lose their rights to the encounter. Also if the guild drags their feet after claiming "first in force" while they try to bring in a more suitable raid (taking longer than 10 minutes) they would lose their rights to the encounter.

CONS:
1) It would allow for significantly more raid bosses to spawn in a given week.

--Is this really a con?

2) Doesn't address trash pull rotations.

--To be honest, rotations on fear trash is a bit absurd in my opinion, that is like reserving all of dreadlands to one exp group because they don't want to share the spawns with another group. Most mobs don't drop loot, occasionally you get a decent loot, a named spawns, etc etc.

[Wonton]

This is a short term problem as we attempt to release new content and not have to continue to deal with conflicts between these two guilds because they cant get along.

You have lost your mind if you think this is a short-term problem. You don't think Transcendence won't be contesting for Innoruuk, Eye of Veeshan(Plane of Sky)? Or say.. Talendor, Severilous, or any other Kunark mob?

There honestly should be a rule to say a "raid mob" can't be camped... but ultimately thats just more GM baby sitting

[Fanwen]

As more raid targets come up it will start to work itself out. Will they be competing, absoutley. But with more targets it is less likely you will be at the same target.

There isnt a perfect soultion here. That is why the rotation is currently the only fair way to deal with this issue. Hasinbad has a good idea below under Champions of Norrath.

Review it, comment on it. But barring a solution that can be agreed upon the rotation is how it will go.

[Greldor]

Someone try explaining again why "first to hit" is a bad idea?

[Hasbinbad]

Someone try explaining again why "first to hit" is a bad idea?

Because given that more than one (ready to go) raid forces were at the spawn point of a given target at the time of spawn, it would require a GM's intervention each time to sort out who got first aggro from the mob. With all parties engaging within a one-second timespan, it would be impossible for players to determine who got aggro first and thus impossible for us to self-police.

[Pikle]

"Because given that more than one (ready to go) raid forces were at the spawn point of a given target at the time of spawn, it would require a GM's intervention each time to sort out who got first aggro from the mob. With all parties engaging within a one-second timespan, it would be impossible for players to determine who got aggro first and thus impossible for us to self-police."

There are a few flaws first off we are considering that both guilds have a raid ready to take the mob sitting at the same place. Now in REAL LIFE you work that shit out yourself. How does it work with parking spaces at Walmart? That's why the variance takes out the issues of multiple guilds camping a spawn for 48 hours or more. I can't imagine both guilds having a raid ready sitting by naggy for 48 hours....

I think Greldor has a point. The existing problem of having 2 guilds waiting on Naggy to spawn at 3:21 or whatever then of course you are going to have issues. But if you don't know if it's going to spawn today or tomorrow it becomes about moving your guild and working quickly. You would end up having people play alts until Naggy spawns then logging right into to their main camped in there. Same thing as in Live. This shouldn't be a big issue if people were going to be more fair.

[Greldor]

Because given that more than one (ready to go) raid forces were at the spawn point of a given target at the time of spawn, it would require a GM's intervention each time to sort out who got first aggro from the mob. With all parties engaging within a one-second timespan, it would be impossible for players to determine who got aggro first and thus impossible for us to self-police.


Wouldn't the first to engage get exp? That should pretty much settle the dispute.

[Pikle]

no highest DPS gets the exp :)

[Hasbinbad]

"Because given that more than one (ready to go) raid forces were at the spawn point of a given target at the time of spawn, it would require a GM's intervention each time to sort out who got first aggro from the mob. With all parties engaging within a one-second timespan, it would be impossible for players to determine who got aggro first and thus impossible for us to self-police."

There are a few flaws first off we are considering that both guilds have a raid ready to take the mob sitting at the same place. Now in REAL LIFE you work that shit out yourself. How does it work with parking spaces at Walmart? That's why the variance takes out the issues of multiple guilds camping a spawn for 48 hours or more. I can't imagine both guilds having a raid ready sitting by naggy for 48 hours....

I think Greldor has a point. The existing problem of having 2 guilds waiting on Naggy to spawn at 3:21 or whatever then of course you are going to have issues. But if you don't know if it's going to spawn today or tomorrow it becomes about moving your guild and working quickly. You would end up having people play alts until Naggy spawns then logging right into to their main camped in there. Same thing as in Live. This shouldn't be a big issue if people were going to be more fair.

Honestly Pikle, I don't know who you are, but we have been in the situation to where we were both ready to go and basically on top of nagafen's spawn point at the time of his spawn. This is why the rotation was put in place and this is what we are trying to avoid AGAIN in the future. Again, this thing that you are saying is unlikely to ever happen HAS ALREADY HAPPENED and will probably happen again unless something is done.

[Hasbinbad]

no highest DPS gets the exp :)

Which would make this whole situation extremely unacceptable for trans (with current gear/skill distribution).

[Naerron]

I think a few people are way off base here. Getting to kill raid targets, for most of us, is not about wanting to be "gods among noobs" but rather getting to frickin raid lol. I love to raid, that's what kept me in EQ for so long, if it was a game that u just got great gear from group lvl shit i prob woulda quit. That being said here are my thoughts on rotation/competition.

Rotations have their obvious benefits. I know on transcendance's first naggy kill we were trained 3 times before we could even get to the mob. Once the trainers admitted it their guild helped us CR. A rotation eliminates this sort of behavior, and reduces a lot of stress for guild/raid leaders. It also ensures that everyone on the server who as at raiding lvl gets to have some fun and raid. That being said tho..

Mob competition is innately part of EQ. Notably the game started losing many of its key guilds and "celebrity" players when raids started being instance, example is Furror in FoH with plane of time. There are key skills raiding guilds need to be successful that really separate the casuals from the good players, most importantly its teamwork in mobility to a raid target. Having mobs on rotation completely takes this aspect out of the game.

Why did we start needing rotations already? Mostly its because of the lack of raid content available, when there was enough guilds on live to really cause competition between the guilds there were enough targets that a guild could still raid atleast something, even if it was not the mob they had their eyes on. Like i said earlier this is the real motivation for most of us, getting to raid. My solution is not some grand master plan and spawn timer and GM watchings us like babies, but simply give us the other planes to raid. This will alleviate the pressure big time.

However, if this is not in the realm of possibility, due to progression sequence wanted to be maintained by the GMs, then really without their being a cry drama fest rotations seem to be the best route. IF the decision to stay on rotation is kept tho, i think it should be limited to a 4 hour grace period to mobilize and kill the mob before it move to the next guild in the rotation. This low grace period does a few things, it keeps guilds needing to be ready and still leaves a little room for mobilization to be a factor, also it make sure the mob is dead at least close tot he spawn time, this 24 hour crap is BS and makes the mob really a 7-9 day spawn instead of 7 days witht he +/- factor in the respawn.

If anyone is still reading this i sort of feel sorry for you.

[Hasbinbad]

I think a few people are.. ... ..i sort of feel sorry for you.

Naerron you are well spoken and obviously you have thought about your responses. I really agree with a lot of what you said and I really wish we could bring that kind of attitude to the bargaining table.

[Pikle]

Hasbin I had a long post that I wrote out for you but it did not go through. So here's my attempt at an explanation of what I've already written. I don't think you got what I was saying honestly. All the things I were saying was based on the VARIANCE option. Not on an already known spawn timer. Of course if Naggy spawns at 3:21 why wouldn't both guilds sit with a full raid ready to go at the spawn point? Now if Naggy could spawn today or tomorrow and you still both want to sit with a full raid for 48 hours, go right ahead, You won't be able to take out CT or Vox. The VARIANCE option also allows for mobilization competition.

A set spawn time has many problems, but it's classic. A set spawn time gives guilds the ability to plan when and where to be somewhere, so of course you could set up and camp for 14 hours or whatever before hand. This is where a rotation could be put in place. Of course you need to make sure the rotation is fair and that everyone follows the rules. For anyone who cares, the Strong will survive. The strongest guild can take what they want, it's like real life. It should be like a parking spot at Walmart, first come, first serve. If both people continue to try and take the spot, they collide. But every time someone ends up getting the spot :)

NOW if you want to keep the spawn time to it's classic point, you set up a rotation. But you have to put someone honest in charge of the rotation. Anyone can be corrupt, anyone from a lvl 1 halfling druid to a GM.

BUT if you want to put in a variance timer then FFA is a logical solution, these things that you claimed I said that weren't very likely but have already happened.... THEY haven't happened, the variance option isn't in for it to happen. With a set timer these things happen, and that's why you are having problems.

Now on my old live server we had 5+ power guilds and we shared rotations on everything. We had a board of people in charge of it so there was limited corruption and we had a forums and everything set up. I don't understand how you people as adults can't solve this issue yourselves without having all these problems and calling mom and dad to help you fix it.

And the reason you haven't heard of me is probably because I'm new and have only been on the server for a week or so. But I do talk in OOC a lot and chat with a lot of people. You probably don't know who I am because you don't notice low lvls much or don't care. I've been very active in OOC and in the community so you must be hiding in solb waiting on naggy or something :)

[drplump]

There a few easy solutions I can think of:

1)Put a huge fuckoff mob in their place thats level 255 and invulnerable with same arrgo range that is silently replaced with raid mob to prevent afk on spawn point.

2)Have the raid target shout the name of the first person to appear on its arrgo list. You could even have it automatically banish all players form other guilds for 5 minutes.

3)Make raid targets boot everyone from zone and repop all other mobs when they spawn or a fun variation of auto killing anyone in range right when they spawn.

I think a combination of 1 and 2 would be the best. This just a case of doing an hour of coding work now to replace all the time it takes to announce who got first hit.

[Pikle]

DrpLump I like your suggestions. I honestly think with all that everyone has said we could come up with a viable option that suits all the players on this server. And I don't think it should be just up to the IB and Trans people, what about any up and coming guilds who may have to alter their plans because of this rule. Personally I will start recruiting more wizards or druids if we need to mobilize fast. Or if we can go inside a zone and claim a mob, I will get a ton of rogues and monks to sit at the mob and wait.

Naerron has some good suggestions. Perhaps we should organize a group of people with representatives of all types to help solve the issue?

[Hasbinbad]

Hasbin I had a long post.. ... ..on naggy or something :)

Thanks for taking your time.
I hear what you're saying and agree with your spirit, but as I have detailed in other posts, a variance solution will not work for a number of reasons.

Here (http://project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1495) is one of them.

Here (http://project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=9578&postcount=36) is another.

If variance is implemented, even should it be a 7 day variance, I do not put it past anyone that you would have GuildA kill nagafen and then GuildA starts a 15 person rotation IMMEDIATELY UPON THE KILL which by the rules as they stand means they have a legit claim on the next nagafen if they keep 15 people in the camp the entire time. This might seem ludicrous, but trans is a zerg guild. They have the numbers and they have shown the initiative to camp these bosses for ridiculous amounts of time already. If they really step up recruiting, who is to say they won't have 15man rotations in perma and solb at all times? ..and who is to say <Bear Jews> won't hold the camp for us? It really brings us back to square one when you look at the inevitable result of BOTH raid forces being in the spawn FROM THE TIME A RAID MOB DIES TO THE TIME HE SPAWNS AGAIN. Do we really want that? ..and if it happens, we are literally back to the same place we are at now.

[Hasbinbad]

There a few easy solutions I can think of:

1)Put a huge fuckoff mob in their place thats level 255 and invulnerable with same arrgo range that is silently replaced with raid mob to prevent afk on spawn point.

2)Have the raid target shout the name of the first person to appear on its arrgo list. You could even have it automatically banish all players form other guilds for 5 minutes.

3)Make raid targets boot everyone from zone and repop all other mobs when they spawn or a fun variation of auto killing anyone in range right when they spawn.

I think a combination of 1 and 2 would be the best. This just a case of doing an hour of coding work now to replace all the time it takes to announce who got first hit.

I actually like all of these suggestions, but #1 they would not be classic (who would agree to this? seriously I would, but I don't really care about things being exactly classic like many do), and #2 they might be hard to code.

[Dabamf]

Solution to prevent guild-stacking for numbers:

A guild can only camp and claim one raid mob at a time. If they wanna sit at naggy for 48 hours, they can claim it, but can't have another 15 people at Vox doing the same thing. Require raid leader to message other guild, or a game-wide /ooc by raid leader announcing the claim (more transparency).

Add the proposed variance spawn times suggested in the OP.

Add a 2 hour limit from the time the boss mob spawns to the end of the claim. The 2 hours can officially start when the competing guild messages the camping guild in zone-wide /shout and says "I see naggy has spawned, 2 hours starting now." This allows secrecy still (game-wide shouts "NAGGY SPAWNED!" is stupid), and requires the competing guild to still pay attention if they wanna put pressure on the camping guild.

Claim to mobs is as follows:
(1)Nagafen: First guild with 15 in zone AND having engaged a FG.
(2)Vox: suggestions, I'm not that familiar with her
(3)CT: (a) Unbroken fear: First to break fear aka first to kill 4 mobs (number change suggestions are welcome) with 12 people present. (b) Broken fear: First with 18 in zone.

This allows: (1)Each guild gets a shot at one mob a week that they really wanna raid, and the most dedicated get their choice of mob. (2) 2 hour limit puts pressure on camping guild, requiring speed, organization, skill, and preventing dummy camps (players afk sleeping while camping) somewhat. (3)requiring the competing guild to announce the start of the 2 hours upon boss spawn puts pressure on the competing guild to officially document the time limit and they have to pay attention. (4) the better guild still ends up with more raid mobs.

So here's an example:
Transc has more people on and zones into solb anticipating a naggy spawn in the next day or 2. Once 15 arrive in zone and after a FG has been engaged they announce in /ooc or aliz messages Otto saying "naggy spawn claimed." Transc can have 20 other people at vox or CT but they cannot claim rights to the spawn, only 1 raid mob at a time. IB decides to camp Vox (or really do ANYTHING they want to do because they know Transc can't claim other raid mobs). IB has a tracker periodically checking to see if naggy has spawned yet. Naggy spawns, and IB announces in solb /shout "I see naggy spawned, it's 6pm, 2 hours start now." Then lets say Vox spawns, IB kills her and rushes to solb. They wait at the start to FG area until 8pm, at which point if naggy is not dead yet, they are free to run in and engage provided naggy is not currently agro'd.

[Taluvill]

There a few easy solutions I can think of:

1)Put a huge fuckoff mob in their place thats level 255 and invulnerable with same arrgo range that is silently replaced with raid mob to prevent afk on spawn point.

2)Have the raid target shout the name of the first person to appear on its arrgo list. You could even have it automatically banish all players form other guilds for 5 minutes.

3)Make raid targets boot everyone from zone and repop all other mobs when they spawn or a fun variation of auto killing anyone in range right when they spawn.

I think a combination of 1 and 2 would be the best. This just a case of doing an hour of coding work now to replace all the time it takes to announce who got first hit.


I can agree with some of them, although number one can be worked around, have people sit in the fg area, for naggy for example. or have them hold the royals group... ect.
I like #2 and #3 a LOT, although i agree with hasbin, they might take a lot of time to code.

Whoever suggested a 7 day spawn timer would be good, would take time to ensure that the spawn wasnt easy to figure out and so that said mob wouldnt repop within, say, an hour of the kill.

Finally, Pikle has a point. These discussions need to be opened up to our future generations of raiders, if they'd like to be in on it. Would suck if we decided on a sucky, BS system and watched as others had to live with it. Dont think for a second we will be the only 2 high end guilds forever.

(PS: totally off topic, but i wonder what kind of legitimate exposure we could get from posting on the Alla's forums, and possibly getting a special nod on the allas site? probably too much to ask, but im sure there are HUNDREDS of people who would love to play here, just are unaware of it. )

[Taluvill]

I love what Dabamf is saying BTW, great system right there.

Would work perfectly as long as no one would try and be sneaky or do something stupid. With everyone on both sides respecting camps, we'd be good to go with that idea

[Greldor]

Would work perfectly as long as no one would try and be sneaky or do something stupid. With everyone on both sides respecting camps, we'd be good to go with that idea

Which is why it will not work.

[Hexsis]

someone has to say it...we are here for classic experience, change nothing...dont mess with spawn times etc, if ib is there and gets the loot then so be it, trans will have to wait till ib gives them some kills/more content...if trans outnumbers them and gets the kill gratz!...leave the gms alone, seriously let them work on more important issues(this will only cause more long term problems, i.e. ddos)...if a guild cheats to get the dps over the other than ban those certain players..

sorry im not very well spoken just worked 13 hours and then came here to see a bunch of people trying to change classic...guilds will have to come up with something, or they will have to fight the dps

[Dabamf]

Which is why it will not work.

I included quite a few checks to make it grief proof, such as requiring the competing guild to announce the start time of 2 hours so that both parties know it. If there are other loopholes, feel free to point them out.

[karsten]

someone has to say it...we are here for classic experience, change nothing...dont mess with spawn times etc, if ib is there and gets the loot then so be it, trans will have to wait till ib gives them some kills/more content...if trans outnumbers them and gets the kill gratz!...leave the gms alone, seriously let them work on more important issues(this will only cause more long term problems, i.e. ddos)...if a guild cheats to get the dps over the other than ban those certain players..

sorry im not very well spoken just worked 13 hours and then came here to see a bunch of people trying to change classic...guilds will have to come up with something, or they will have to fight the dps

^

[Zarniwooop]

I like your spirit, and I think we can all agree. The problem is that trans showed up for a dragon 14 hours early.

They are a zerg guild. If they want to have a rotation of 15 people in a zone at any given time, they have the numbers to do so. What is to stop them from killing nagafen and then leaving 15 people in the zone for a week until he spawns again?

The fact that this is not probable has nothing to do with the fact that it is possible. If it is possible and the system allows it, there is nothing to stop them from doing so. If there is nothing to stop them, there is no reason they shouldn't, and then this becomes a goal. If it happens, no other guild on the server would get a shot at any mob they decide to lock down, ever.

I cannot see how anyone feels this is the best solution.


If they are truly that willing to forgoe life, then the only solution is a spawn rotation. Seriously. There's nothing else to be worked out if that's the way it is. You cannot have a system that calls for two guilds to make "judgment" calls in real time on something. There are only on/off solutions that are clear cut enough to result in the removal of the GM from the equation.

[douglas1999]

someone has to say it...we are here for classic experience, change nothing...dont mess with spawn times etc, if ib is there and gets the loot then so be it, trans will have to wait till ib gives them some kills/more content...if trans outnumbers them and gets the kill gratz!...leave the gms alone, seriously let them work on more important issues(this will only cause more long term problems, i.e. ddos)...if a guild cheats to get the dps over the other than ban those certain players..

sorry im not very well spoken just worked 13 hours and then came here to see a bunch of people trying to change classic...guilds will have to come up with something, or they will have to fight the dps

This. The only rule we need in this whole situation is that raid disputes are automatically ignored by GM's unless a blatant exploit is involved. If a guild wants to camp a mob 14 hours in advance, go ahead and do it, but don't be surprised if another determined guild completely disregards your "claim". All of these elaborate systems people are thinking up are never going to be adhered to if implemented, and will just open a whole new can of worms when people inevitably violate some aspect of the agreement.

[Naerron]

While there has been many suggestion, some good some bad, the problem that i am seeing is the vast amount of complexity involved. Having so many variables like, x amount of players, killing x amount of mobs, in x time, with another variable amount of time before mob spqwns is just confusing and with that much going on is just too many chances for people to to fit the criteria and drama to start.

A direction we need to start going with these ideas is to simplistic models. We need to start looking for a method that is objective, providing fairness for all guilds currently involved, and guilds that will become involved. A method that doesn't involve outside enforcement by GMs and wildly unclassic ideas that change the structure of the game.

So think to yourself, what is something simple, fair, and easy to maintain. The answer i come up with is a rotation or FFA models. FFA, which involves the pure dedication of the guilds, and only the guilds. If a guild wants a mob bad enough to camp it for 14 hours, then gratz them, if they camp it for 14 hours and wipe, and the next guild comes in and takes it, that sucks for them but that's how the game worked on live, why should we change it here?

Here are the truths i know.
1) this is an emu sever dedicated to replicating live
2) on live there were camp rules
3) on live there were many rotation set up, none of which involved a GM to reinforce
4) on live KSing as defined in the play nice policy was extended to the camp and the engaged mob

That is the empirical evidence folks, why are we wracking our brains this hard over something so obvious? If rotations don't work because we refuse to be rational, then we let our emotions take over, and sometimes that means a 14 hour camp and a lock down of all raid targets by 1 guild. If nothing else the fact that niblog consulted the community on what to do about this reinforces the notion that this is completely in our (the player base's) hands. So ask yourself, can u stay awake for 14 hours? if not, you can buy dragon loot when we run out of mains and alts to gear =) That is EQ, it's hardcore and life dominating, long live pre instance raiding.

[halfofalmost]

a GM enforced rotation is garbage.

People will devote their time in different ways when it comes to being considered the biggest dick in EverQuest.

The whole calling out another guild on them being zerg-like because of their devotion to the game (albeit by numbers or willingness to camp a mob for "14 hours") is two-sided.

IB allegedly has the better gear and was first to triumph over Nagafen mainly due to the devotion, and TIME spent getting there, of its core players leading up until the actual event itself (i.e. exp, farming gear in SolB, LGuk, leveling etc.)

The true elite in EQ were always the players who played the most (which /TYPICALLY/ = skill). They had the most HP and Mana.

The Rathe had shit like this going on, but it was actually worth something back in 1999. They ended up doing a calendar based on what the guilds would allow (Mostly KEG/CIW/MFH) the other guilds would get their chances etc. But with Kunark still several months away, I think there's plenty of time for two guilds to hammer out the details themselves.

Yea my post jumps all over the place, its 9am and I haven't played in like a month.

[Trimm]

A guild can only camp and claim one raid mob at a time.

If you are going to enforce any kind of server raid rules, this should be the only one. I have zero vested interested in either guild, and have yet to have a negative experience with either one. If Trans/IB feels they need to camp a spawn for 7 days, go right ahead. That leaves the other two spawns wide open for the taking.

Seems easy enough to enforce as well. A simple /who all fear and if you see 15 IB names, it is camped. The only time a GM should get involved is if there is one guild camping more than one spawn.

I'm from the school of first-in-force wins the spawn, with other guilds getting a chance if the first wipes. If neither guild can accept this, and rules must be inforced, one spawn per guild is the way to go in my opinion.

[Supreme]

While there has been many suggestion, some good some bad, the problem that i am seeing is the vast amount of complexity involved. Having so many variables like, x amount of players, killing x amount of mobs, in x time, with another variable amount of time before mob spqwns is just confusing and with that much going on is just too many chances for people to to fit the criteria and drama to start.

A direction we need to start going with these ideas is to simplistic models. We need to start looking for a method that is objective, providing fairness for all guilds currently involved, and guilds that will become involved. A method that doesn't involve outside enforcement by GMs and wildly unclassic ideas that change the structure of the game.

So think to yourself, what is something simple, fair, and easy to maintain. The answer i come up with is a rotation or FFA models. FFA, which involves the pure dedication of the guilds, and only the guilds. If a guild wants a mob bad enough to camp it for 14 hours, then gratz them, if they camp it for 14 hours and wipe, and the next guild comes in and takes it, that sucks for them but that's how the game worked on live, why should we change it here?

Here are the truths i know.
1) this is an emu sever dedicated to replicating live
2) on live there were camp rules
3) on live there were many rotation set up, none of which involved a GM to reinforce
4) on live KSing as defined in the play nice policy was extended to the camp and the engaged mob

That is the empirical evidence folks, why are we wracking our brains this hard over something so obvious? If rotations don't work because we refuse to be rational, then we let our emotions take over, and sometimes that means a 14 hour camp and a lock down of all raid targets by 1 guild. If nothing else the fact that niblog consulted the community on what to do about this reinforces the notion that this is completely in our (the player base's) hands. So ask yourself, can u stay awake for 14 hours? if not, you can buy dragon loot when we run out of mains and alts to gear =) That is EQ, it's hardcore and life dominating, long live pre instance raiding.

Because IB wants to reinvent the wheel.

[Takshaka]

A guild can only camp and claim one raid mob at a time.

Add the proposed variance spawn times suggested in the OP.

Add a 2 hour limit from the time the boss mob spawns to the end of the claim.


I really think that this is the best solution yet. Someone said that this system will be exploited as well and that it will not work. If this system will not work please state why you think it will not work. What kind of sneakyness have you already thought of that is not covered by what Dabamf has already stated?(be sure to read the whole post) If we can think of loopholes now it we can include fixes for those loopholes.

This system could be largely enforced by the players, however repeated ignoring of the rules would probably ultimately require GM action. If sufficient proof* can be shown that a guild has been ignoring the rules (ie spawn camping two raid mobs, or not giving the guild that has camped a raid mob the 2 hour window to kill it) then the entire guild *read entire guild, not just the members directly involved* should get something like a 7 day IP ban. And that 7 day IP ban should be 7 days of server up time. so if some ass clown cannot decide to DDoS the server to prevent others from playing while they are temp banned.

*I would define sufficient proof as fraps videos or similar. screenshots can be photoshoped far too easily. True, videos can be faked as well, but it is a lot more difficult.

[Takshaka]

Ok, in order to pevent this(<Bear Jews> Recuiting! (http://project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1495#post9888)

Simple add another rule that a guild cannot engage another raid mob while camping or engaging any other raid mob.

Furthermore, if a guild gives up their camp for another guild over and over again, it will be seen that both guilds are abusing the rules and both would suffer from 7 day ban?

[Wonton]

I find this whole matter frustrating. If GMs had not come in and forced a rotation on the server, Transcendence would constantly have a boot in their ass.

/rant on

To Supreme:
GJ taking 3+ hours to take down Vox, or did Trans even get him? LOL, DIE TO GIANTS MORE YOU DAMN SCRUBS!! How long did it take you guys to clear fear? 6-8 hours? rofl.. Were zone-in mobs repopping before you downed the temple? I was falling asleep in my computer chair waiting for the POFear mobs to respawn. It would repop in intervals that were spaced out like 30 minutes. Zone-in - (30 mins) > half West wall / East of zone-in - (30 mins) > Graveyard Toads - (60 mins) > Gorgons / Boogeymen - (30 mins) > TTs - (30 mins) and after 3 hours of what would take us about 45 minutes we called it quits and decided to just wait for a full repop.

/rant off

Its frustrating that IB can't do a damn thing but sit and watch this fail guild. Wenai is preventing IB from totally steam rolling Transcendence by using 14-day ban warnings and forcing rotation. Transcendence can't even comprehend the amount of damage we could inflict from PVE.

[Dartagnan]

I think Wenai is Nancy Pelosi in RL.

[Supreme]

I find this whole matter frustrating. If GMs had not come in and forced a rotation on the server, Transcendence would constantly have a boot in their ass.

/rant on

To Supreme:
GJ taking 3+ hours to take down Vox, or did Trans even get him? LOL, DIE TO GIANTS MORE YOU DAMN SCRUBS!! How long did it take you guys to clear fear? 6-8 hours? rofl.. Were zone-in mobs repopping before you downed the temple? I was falling asleep in my computer chair waiting for the POFear mobs to respawn. It would repop in intervals that were spaced out like 30 minutes. Zone-in - (30 mins) > half West wall / East of zone-in - (30 mins) > Graveyard Toads - (60 mins) > Gorgons / Boogeymen - (30 mins) > TTs - (30 mins) and after 3 hours of what would take us about 45 minutes we called it quits and decided to just wait for a full repop.

/rant off

Its frustrating that IB can't do a damn thing but sit and watch this fail guild. Wenai is preventing IB from totally steam rolling Transcendence by using 14-day ban warnings and forcing rotation. Transcendence can't even comprehend the amount of damage we could inflict from PVE.

Wait so because we do not clear fear as fast as you think we should and we do not do Vox as "flawless" as you that somehow entitles you to taking all the raid mobs and "steam rolling" the server?

You are a jackass.

[Supreme]

Oh..btw Wonton.

Its hard to clear the zone when there is not a CT to charm and kill everything for you.

Oh and fear does still work on CT on this server.

[Zexa]

Wait so because we do not clear fear as fast as you think we should and we do not do Vox as "flawless" as you that somehow entitles you to taking all the raid mobs and "steam rolling" the server?

You are a jackass.

Legitimately killing Vox would be a good first step.

[Zarniwooop]

Ahh yes.

Bringing out the 11-year old in all of us.

[Supreme]

Legitimately killing Vox would be a good first step.

Towards what?

If vox is broken then they should #kill her everytime she spawns. Give us a working encounter and we will kill her.

You guys seem to have it in your head that for some reason we cannot kill her either way.

BTW who feared CT at the end of your fight.

[Rhongomyniad]

Did anyone else notice feerrott filling up with IB before the patch was even announced?

[Jify]

Did anyone else notice feerrott filling up with IB before the patch was even announced?

You mean right after Rogean said, "Server coming down for 10-15minutes in XX minutes?"

Ya.. mobilize pretty fast. :)

[Wonton]

Wait so because we do not clear fear as fast as you think we should and we do not do Vox as "flawless" as you that somehow entitles you to taking all the raid mobs and "steam rolling" the server?

You are a jackass.


Yes. When it takes a guild about 1-2 hours JUST to get to Vox, then another 1-2 hours to kill her, much less wipe during this process... that " * SHOULD * "entitle another guild to come in and attempt.

[Supreme]

Yes. When it takes a guild about 1-2 hours JUST to get to Vox, then another 1-2 hours to kill her, much less wipe during this process... that " * SHOULD * "entitle another guild to come in and attempt.

Sorry sir.

Your argument is invalid.

[Wonton]

If a guild wipes, why is that not a valid point for another guild to come in for a shot?

[Allizia]

I find this whole matter frustrating. If GMs had not come in and forced a rotation on the server, Transcendence would constantly have a boot in their ass.

/rant on

To Supreme:
GJ taking 3+ hours to take down Vox, or did Trans even get him? LOL, DIE TO GIANTS MORE YOU DAMN SCRUBS!! How long did it take you guys to clear fear? 6-8 hours? rofl.. Were zone-in mobs repopping before you downed the temple? I was falling asleep in my computer chair waiting for the POFear mobs to respawn. It would repop in intervals that were spaced out like 30 minutes. Zone-in - (30 mins) > half West wall / East of zone-in - (30 mins) > Graveyard Toads - (60 mins) > Gorgons / Boogeymen - (30 mins) > TTs - (30 mins) and after 3 hours of what would take us about 45 minutes we called it quits and decided to just wait for a full repop.

/rant off

Its frustrating that IB can't do a damn thing but sit and watch this fail guild. Wenai is preventing IB from totally steam rolling Transcendence by using 14-day ban warnings and forcing rotation. Transcendence can't even comprehend the amount of damage we could inflict from PVE.

You do realize we had no details on the rotation right? We did not even expect to have PoFear and broke in with 10 people. I'm sorry your 30 man raid had to wait a bit (Trans zerg wut?)

[Wonton]

The way it is now.. I'm surprised if Transcendence feels any satisfaction when they down a mob, because those mobs are being handed to them on a silver platter. I hope they realize this.

[Supreme]

If a guild wipes, why is that not a valid point for another guild to come in for a shot?

So if you are trying..lets say Trakanon for the first time and you wipe and another guild is there you would be willing to stand around and wait for them to attempt Trakanon? What if it takes them a hour to prepare? What if the zone crashed during the encounter?

Do you see where it can all lead to? If its YOUR kill and its YOUR boss then you get to try and kill YOUR boss as many times as you choose. The idea that one attempt and you are out only leads to more BS and drama.

[Supreme]

The way it is now.. I'm surprised if Transcendence feels any satisfaction when they down a mob, because those mobs are being handed to them on a silver platter. I hope they realize this.

I have yet to get my silver platter.

Is it in the mail?

[Wonton]

Allizia. you know you are benefitting from this rotation.. don't try and play innocent. You never even respond to Otto when he sends you tells.. you aren't even trying to make comprimise...

[Allizia]

Allizia. you know you are benefitting from this rotation.. don't try and play innocent. You never even respond to Otto when he sends you tells.. you aren't even trying to make comprimise...

I respond every time when I see it. The only thing Otto talks about is trying to find a loophole to zerg over us, or to let us know we only have 21.45 hours left before they engage.

[Supreme]

You now have 21 hours left to play.

[Wonton]

No transcendence members are putting in any effort ( that i've seen ) to try and solve this problem.

its only supreme trying to nullify anything we say.. cuz he's just that awesome. (this doesn't mean i'm not doing my share of trolling, happy?)

go post your thoughts on Champions of Norrath thread

[Allizia]

No transcendence members are putting in any effort ( that i've seen ) to try and solve this problem.

its only supreme trying to nullify anything we say.. cuz he's just that awesome. (this doesn't mean i'm not doing my share of trolling, happy?)

go post your thoughts on Champions of Norrath thread

You guys do realize that spamming me with tells when I am in the middle of coordinating a raid is not exactly the best time to get a response from me right? I've offered to have a sit down somewhere with Otto and officer + Me/Tib.

Here, since I never reply

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/allizarx/otto3spawn.jpg

We left PoF 30 minutes early and handed rights over to IB once most on the zone in area was clear (still found a way to bitch about it)

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/allizarx/ottoCST.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/allizarx/ottoengage.jpg

[Supreme]

its only supreme trying to nullify anything we say.. cuz he's just that awesome. (this doesn't mean i'm not doing my share of trolling, happy?)

My efforts to nullify anything you say is the reciprocal of how much you guys are crying about a forced rotation.

If I am awesome it is because you clowns are making it so easy!

[karsten]

so like, supreme i heard that the vox you guys killed last night AEed zero times and feared zero times. confirm/deny?

[Wonton]

Allizia thats cool.. it's not like those were all within the same night or anything..

[Deanob]

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/allizarx/ottoengage.jpg


I like how you guys purposely put together a "KS group". lol

[Rhongomyniad]

I like how you guys purposely put together a "KS group". lol

.

[Deanob]

.

Don't be Coy Rhongomyniad. We all know that convo was while you were in Pof with us camping the temple... Why exactly do you need a KS group in a plane with another guild inhabiting it?

[Rhongomyniad]

Don't be Coy Rhongomyniad. We all know that convo was while you were in Pof with us camping the temple... Why exactly do you need a KS group in a plane with another guild inhabiting it?

I suggest you ask yourself which mob a mana drain wand is used on when it is at 50%.

[Allizia]

I suggest you ask yourself which mob a mana drain wand is used on when it is at 50%.

^ this

[Widan]

So what if spawn variance favors the guild with more people and who plays more. This is everquest, that is what is supposed to happen.

Randomizing spawn timers is really the only way to fix this problem which all raiding games face, aside from instancing.

[Rifter]

Completely unbiased opinion here.

This is a case of GMs stepping into an area they don't have cause to...yet. Unless someone can give me an example of why this was necessary that involves either guild doing something against the rules to get a spawn GMs have absolutely no business enforcing a raid schedule between guilds. Even if training or whatnot is involved it has to be an extremely serious situation for a GM to even consider doing such a thing.

People can complain all they want about competition for spawns, this is Everquest, deal with it. Let the players play FFS.

Post Edit thought: The ONLY time a GM should have any say on the claim of a spawn is when there are two or more actual guilds IN FORCE competing for it, right there on the spot. For a GM to mandate the spawns for the entire server is lunacy.

[Matrim]

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

This server is named project1999. PLEASE hold to that vision.

GMs should never be dictating rights to mobs before they've spawned- it kills the rush to mobilize, it kills the competitive nature raid guilds thrive on. Any system that awards the claim to a raid mob in advance is NOT Everquest, and it's not appealing to someone who plays here looking for a classic experience.

All of these posts about alternate systems need to be scrapped. The GM staff of this server needs to take a step back and ask themselves why they're so determined to undermine the work of the developers.

[Reiker]

Don't be Coy Rhongomyniad. We all know that convo was while you were in Pof with us camping the temple... Why exactly do you need a KS group in a plane with another guild inhabiting it?

Yeah that was obviously Vox, big guy.

[Rigget]

it's not appealing to someone who plays here looking for a classic experience.

What was the first thing you thought of when you discovered an emulator attempting to recreate a classic everquest environment? Guild bickering and drama associated with raid mob rights? Kill stealing, intentional training, and loot mongering?

I doubt it.

I bet the first thoughts into your mind were "Wow I remember that! I can remake my old Dwarf Paladin and camp in Crushbone for a SBS! Unrest was so awesome, I hope I can find a group there to go into THE BASEMENT! I'll get to do the Soulfire quest! Lower Guk? Yea I remember that crazy place! Oh wait, there were dragons too, I'd really like to do that again. Never went to Plane of Fear when I played on Live, I bet that would be a fun experience." And so on and so on.

I really doubt most people were thinking about how they'd love to sit and watch as one (or maybe two) top guild take all the fun content. People came to enjoy the content of the game, not its side effects.

[Matrim]

Actually, I did that all on live, and I've been doing it again on other emulated servers. The thing those other servers lack (with the possible exception of VZTZ's hackfest), and the best* part of eq for me: competitive raiding.

So, in short- you're wrong.

This server is about recreating the EQlive experience during this era- or at least that's the impression I was given through word-of-mouth, the website, and the forum. A lot* of effort has been put into reproducing every minute detail of this game, down to drops that were only in briefly and then never again. Changing something as fundamental and essential to the makeup of the game as the right for players to compete for every raid mob undermines that effort at epic levels.

I don't want to have to log into a forum to determine which raid mob I'm allowed to kill in game this week. I don't want a GM entering the zone, ruining EQ's amazing level of immersion, and dictating to guilds to leave the zone until next week.

EQ in this era through Velious is closer to perfection than any mmo I've ever played- and I've played every major mmo for the past decade. Many other emulated servers have tried to alter and improve upon it- they have ALL failed without a single exception. Please, do not make the same mistake here. Hold to Verant's vision. Let players raid as we did on live during this era.

[guineapig]

Let me start by saying that I agree that zones should not be reserved for certain guilds on certain days.
Let me follow that up by saying that boss rotation between 2 guilds is a win win situation that you should take while the taking is good.
As I have said before, enjoy the fact that there are only 2 of you right now because that's not going to last much longer.

You have it so good you don't even realize!!! You have very little competition and access to every single great item in the game right now. Chances are your very existence will slow the progress of other guilds as anyone who reaches 50 will jump ship from their "family guilds" to join yours. I have seen this happen time and time again on live. Stop crying and this goes for both guilds.

Actually, I did that all on live, and I've been doing it again on other emulated servers. The thing those other servers lack (with the possible exception of VZTZ's hackfest), and the best* part of eq for me: competitive raiding.

So, in short- you're wrong.


See, this is what I get hung up on.
Raiding is all about working together as a team to overcome extremely difficult encounters. Now if it's a race to be the first on the server to do something... well then we are too late for that with the existing bosses.

What's the competition now exactly??? To down a boss ten times while the other guild only downed it 5 times? To have 6 people in your guild owning a rare item as opposed to just 3 people in the opposing guild?

What am I missing? Everyone seems to be bragging on how easily bosses are being killed with much fewer players than was ever attempted back in 1999. So we know the loot obviously isn't essential for success, at least not at this point.

So I ask again, what exactly is the competition, other than greed? What have you to prove? That you can run to a zone faster than the other team? That you kill the mob faster? That's pretty lame...

[Matrim]

Lame or not- that's Everquest as Verant intended. Many of us love it.

[Supreme]

You guys are really tools.

You seem to think that this server is EXACTLY like Everquest was when it was first released and the fact is that it is not.

The server population is LIMITED as are the total number of similar servers. In addition the GMs/Devs have taken a more active and interested role in what is going on with the server.

You have it in your head that a FFA first come first serve is the BEST solution for how to hand raid content and as it has already been seen IT ISNT. You think that other guilds will stand by and let you just take whatever you want without a fight and DRAMA?

You are a bigger moron than i thought possible.

[Hasbinbad]

The ONLY time a GM should have any say on the claim of a spawn is when there are two or more actual guilds IN FORCE competing for it, right there on the spot.
That is exactly what happened.

[Hasbinbad]

What was the first thing you thought of when you discovered an emulator attempting to recreate a classic everquest environment? Guild bickering and drama associated with raid mob rights? Kill stealing, intentional training, and loot mongering?
Yes. Welcome to Everquest. LOADING, PLEASE WAIT..

[Supreme]

Yes. Welcome to Everquest. LOADING, PLEASE WAIT..

Honestly you are a pale representation of Hardcore raiding guilds that were on Live.

[Witness]

I suggest the rotation goes away. IF IB or trans or whoever the guild is that is sitting on spawns for 14 hours continues to do that they WILL get burnt out. Cmon guys we've all played Everquest for many yeas. You all should know by now that this absurd camping lasts all of a couple weeks and then people realize they have jobs/family/they need to eat. The only time on my old server we would do something like this is when we have been waiting to kill a mob for a long time we would camp it for 14 hours, otherwise it was just a mad dash for everyone online to make it to the mob.

With that said, if the people want to camp the mob for 14 hours let them. The flame will burn out and they will quit EQ and you will then have ALL the raid mobs to yourself. If I was the other guild I would be saying heck, let them camp for 14 hours, because I KNOW, from my previous 10 years of experience, they WILL get burned out.

[Supreme]

I suggest the rotation goes away. IF IB or trans or whoever the guild is that is sitting on spawns for 14 hours continues to do that they WILL get burnt out. Cmon guys we've all played Everquest for many yeas. You all should know by now that this absurd camping lasts all of a couple weeks and then people realize they have jobs/family/they need to eat. The only time on my old server we would do something like this is when we have been waiting to kill a mob for a long time we would camp it for 14 hours, otherwise it was just a mad dash for everyone online to make it to the mob.

With that said, if the people want to camp the mob for 14 hours let them. The flame will burn out and they will quit EQ and you will then have ALL the raid mobs to yourself. If I was the other guild I would be saying heck, let them camp for 14 hours, because I KNOW, from my previous 10 years of experience, they WILL get burned out.

Took me 6 years to get burned out on it and here i am still=(.

[Witness]

Took me 6 years to get burned out on it and here i am still=(.

So you're telling me for 6 years you camped raid mobs for 14 hours a day? If that's the case then you deserve all the mobs

[Deanob]

LOL trans is pro. they put together specific groups for specific mobs. LOL

[Supreme]

So you're telling me for 6 years you camped raid mobs for 14 hours a day? If that's the case then you deserve all the mobs

Pre Instancing..yes.

You guys think EE is camped..wait till Kunark comes out. Pained Soul and Karnors basement will be PERMA camped.

[Supreme]

LOL trans is pro. they put together specific groups for specific mobs. LOL


Ummm...

Are you a moron?

[Reiyz]

LOL trans is pro. they put together specific groups for specific mobs. LOL

I don't understand this garbage of a line, because for anyone to maximize efficiency groups must be arranged in a manner that promotes maximum production.

[Supreme]

I don't understand this garbage of a line, because for anyone to maximize efficiency groups must be arranged in a manner that promotes maximum production.

/agree

[Hasbinbad]

Honestly you are a pale representation of Hardcore raiding guilds that were on Live.

Coming from a complete scrub like you, that's a badge of honor.

[Hasbinbad]

I KNOW, from my previous 10 years of experience, they WILL get burned out.

Sorry, after working our asses off to be the top guild on this server, we're not willing to wait until #2 is burned out until we get raid targets. This is ludicrous.

[Supreme]

Coming from a complete scrub like you, that's a badge of honor.

Your ignorance is better than Jboots.

Oh how little you know=).

[Supreme]

Sorry, after working our asses off to be the top guild on this server, we're not willing to wait until #2 is burned out until we get raid targets. This is ludicrous.

Thats right because no one else put in any effort to get to level 50 and build up a guild.

What guild did you claim to be a part of on live again?

[Hasbinbad]

Your ignorance is better than Jboots.

Oh how little you know=).

Support that statement?
You know jack shit about what I know, scrub.
Please stop using unsupported platitudes as a prosthesis for your intellectual stagnance.

[Witness]

Sorry, after working our asses off to be the top guild on this server, we're not willing to wait until #2 is burned out until we get raid targets. This is ludicrous.

Hasbinbad, if you truly feel this way, then camp for 15 hours when they are camping for 14 hours. most effort should get mob. period.

[Hasbinbad]

Thats right because no one else put in any effort to get to level 50 and build up a guild.

What guild did you claim to be a part of on live again?

I never said anything about anyone else. I'm not detracting from anyone elses work, as is obviated in my post. What I *am* saying is that - as a group - we've worked harder and we've gone farther than anyone else on the server, since day one. We're not going to sit back idly while someone else dominates content simply due to the fact that they have a bunch of no-life-having scrubs they recruited in EC tunnel who will sit and do nothing for 14 hours. Just not going to fucking happen.

[Hasbinbad]

Hasbinbad, if you truly feel this way, then camp for 15 hours when they are camping for 14 hours. most effort should get mob. period.

See my last reply.

[Witness]

I never said anything about anyone else. I'm not detracting from anyone elses work, as is obviated in my post. What I *am* saying is that - as a group - we've worked harder and we've gone farther than anyone else on the server, since day one. We're not going to sit back idly while someone else dominates content simply due to the fact that they have a bunch of no-life-having scrubs they recruited in EC tunnel who will sit and do nothing for 14 hours. Just not going to fucking happen.

I didnt know this was happening. A camp should only be claimable by a force that can kill the mob, a bunch of noobs camping a raid target should not count. And i really hope it hasnt in the past..

[Hasbinbad]

I didnt know this was happening. A camp should only be claimable by a force that can kill the mob, a bunch of noobs camping a raid target should not count. And i really hope it hasnt in the past..

Right.. They camp vox, they wipe to vox, they wipe to vox, they wipe to vox.. Vox becomes bugged (no ae dd or fear), and all the sudden they kill her and claim legitimacy as a raid guild. Roffle.

[Supreme]

Support that statement?
You know jack shit about what I know, scrub.
Please stop using unsupported platitudes as a prosthesis for your intellectual stagnance.

While i can see you are straining hard to compete with me rhetorically i must point out that my response was directly correlated to your original response.

You do not know me and state that i am a "scrub".

You are ignorant because you have no idea who i am where i have come from or what i have accomplished.

You joined a guild on a EMU server and now have a horrible case of cranial rectosis because for some reason you feel you are entitled to OWN the server because you just so happened to spend a major portion of your life out leveling everyone.

Sorry to smack you in the face with reality but you missed your guess and have failed (again).

[Supreme]

Right.. They camp vox, they wipe to vox, they wipe to vox, they wipe to vox.. Vox becomes bugged (no ae dd or fear), and all the sudden they kill her and claim legitimacy as a raid guild. Roffle.

oh thats right. IB never wiped to vox.

Wait thats right no guild has ever wiped to ANY raid content whatsoever.

http://www.myspaceantics.com/images/myspace-graphics/funny-pictures/bunny-pancake-head.jpg

[Supreme]

I didnt know this was happening. A camp should only be claimable by a force that can kill the mob, a bunch of noobs camping a raid target should not count. And i really hope it hasnt in the past..


Lets not be mislead here.

Vox/Naggy where always camped with at least 2-3 full groups of Transcendence for MANY hours.

IB is against sharing because they spent the most time leveling to 50 and think that somehow they are entitled to having their pick of kills and whatever they dont want they leave to the rest of the server. GMs felt this was not a good idea as it began to escalate and cause drama and put in a rotation until both guilds could come up with a better solution.

Its all about them and not about anyone else.

[Nizzarr]

camping a mob isnt effort its retarded.

anyway if they want to claim a spawn they'll need a force able to take it -- 15 able players(46+) is what it takes to start the engage timer( 2 hours). Thats non-afk moving players btw. If two or more guilds are present for the spawn, which is very unlikely given the spawn time variance, then they should /random 1000 for the spawn.

Engage timer is only started when theres competition for a spawn, it is ONLY to decide who gets first shot at a mob. You need 15 players to start the 2 hour engage period on the other guild. The first guild present needs to be able to prove that they got 15 moving players.

Spawn time, even if random, can be seen by GMs. This rule is impervious only if GMs shut their mouth about spawn time. I'll be very suspicious if a guild is waiting on a spawn then it happens very shortly after they assemble a force.

These rules are only for dragons.

Planar rules should be whoever break the plane gets the first shot at the easy boss/god.
Planar leapfrogging in my mind is very cheap. Although you can have a force ready for a easy boss/god if the first guild fails their first attempt.

Plane trash should work like this: if you broke the plane, you own all the trash inside until you leave. If you stay for respawns, then the respawns are yours until you decide to leave.


so if something in there sounds unfair to you guys, please make tweaks and suggestions.

[Supreme]

I like what you are saying except for the planes.

I think it should be your plane for 7 days then at which time it rotates to the next. Reason why is that you could in theory NEVER leave PoFear/PoHate.

I still remember doing PoFear with Paradigm and being there for 10 days straight farming.

[Nizzarr]

So if your guild is retarded enough to camp dragons for 72 hours straight -- go for it.

Remember that if a guild shows up and you have 17 players but 4 arent moving/obviously afk when the other guild has 15 players moving, you're losing your shot.


These rules are easily player enforceable, which is the MAIN thing about this shitstorm right now. I want the GMs to stay out of this. The GMs want to stay out of this. They want us to police ourselves.

When you make suggestions, KEEP THAT IN MIND!

[Supreme]

So if your guild is retarded enough to camp dragons for 72 hours straight -- go for it.

Remember that if a guild shows up and you have 17 players but 4 arent moving/obviously afk when the other guild has 15 players moving, you're losing your shot.


These rules are easily player enforceable, which is the MAIN thing about this shitstorm right now. I want the GMs to stay out of this. The GMs want to stay out of this. They want us to police ourselves.

When you make suggestions, KEEP THAT IN MIND!


The problem is arbitration. If 17 people are present and you show up and feel 3 are AFK then you decide that you will now by pass them and do it your way that sets a bad standard. It leaves too much for interpretation.

[Hasbinbad]

While i can see you are straining hard to compete with me rhetorically
I don't think you know what rhetoric means, because if you did, you would understand that we don't compete because I am in a totally different and superior class than you in using words artfully.

i must point out that my response was directly correlated to your original response.
Yes, but the content of your response was directly correlated with bullshit.

You do not know me and state that i am a "scrub".
Yep. You are. No self-respecting man of action would spout the drivel with which you vandalize these boards daily. You're a forum troll. All forum trolls are, by definition, scrubs.

You are ignorant because you have no idea who i am where i have come from or what i have accomplished.
While I am ignorant of who you are and where you come from, I am generally not an ignorant person. Well, I am, because everyone is really an ignorant person by the definition of ignorance if you really want to get down to arguing philosophy, etymology, and semantics. This however does not stop me from being able to gather information based on what I see and form an opinion based on these data. Some of the data which I am using to form my current opinion is that you troll the forums daily without any constructive goal, and that you try and make fun of people to get a rise out of them. Like I said, you're nothing more than a scrub. Get a life, fucktard.

You.. ..have a horrible case of cranial rectosis
The rectum in my skull is inflamed? You're real bright.

because for some reason you feel you are entitled to OWN the server
I never said anything like this. I stated simply that we are not going to let ANYONE ELSE own the server. We are going to FIGHT LIKE DEMONS for the lion's share, because we are the lion, but we don't feel entitled. Honestly, what we REALLY want is FFA so we can own your faces in honest competition, but you guys are such scrubs you won't agree to it.

Sorry to smack you in the face with reality but you missed your guess and have failed (again).
Does writing stuff like this make you feel better about yourself? Whatever works I guess.

[Deanob]

Ummm...

Are you a moron?

I don't understand this garbage of a line, because for anyone to maximize efficiency groups must be arranged in a manner that promotes maximum production.

/agree

http://forums.clubrsx.com/images/smilies/rotfl.gif

[Supreme]

I would also like to add that camping zone/dragon etc can only happen ONE at a time.

No camping Vox/Naggy/Pofear/Pohate/PoSky all at the same time.

[Wonton]

I think supreme is angry cuz he'll never obtain a title as long as he's in Transcendence. oh god, here he goes again

[Nizzarr]

I dont think plane rotation is needed here. I think guild can have enough courtesy to not stay in a plane for 10 days straight. I dont think my guild would stay more than a break-in and a respawn.

7 days plane rotation wont work here once a third guild shows up. We can talk about trash rotations but even that sounds very retarded.

If no one is in a plane, then anyone can go for it.

[Hasbinbad]

IB is against sharing because they spent the most time leveling to 50 and think that somehow they are entitled to having their pick of kills and whatever they dont want they leave to the rest of the server.
Failtrain?
We never said anything like that.
Nobody thinks you speak for IB, and your faulty paraphrasing is just seen as immature ranting. We never said anything remotely like this. We do not feel entitled to own the content, but we're not going to sit by idly while the Tranny Horde tries to claim content with zerg tactics. Just like we rolled over you at Nagafen, we would much rather fight you for the content than have it given to us. If you think you're our equals, then let's FFA, otherwise shut your filthy sperm receptacle (mouth).

[Deanob]

LOL @ raiding planes for 7 days in a row.

[guineapig]

It's not that difficult to "camp" a mob all day long.
Especially those who have "wives" or "brothers" with accounts. Log in on the second account. Leave the character there all day and just glance at the screen every once in a while playing on the other account.

I hope you guys don't honestly think there is somebody logged in doing absolutely nothing all night long.

[Nizzarr]

Look we can make more rules about it if you want supreme, nothing is set in stones.

if you're camping(being retarded) a raid mob, and the other guild shows up with 15+ players. They'll need a proof that your guild isnt all afk -- lets say give them 5-10 minute to move those 15 players that were ALREADY in the zone. hows that sound? 10 minute to show 15 moving players is plenty and shows whos afk and whos not.

[Supreme]

I don't think you know what rhetoric means, because if you did, you would understand that we don't compete because I am in a totally different and superior class than you in using words artfully.


Yes, but the content of your response was directly correlated with bullshit.


Yep. You are. No self-respecting man of action would spout the drivel with which you vandalize these boards daily. You're a forum troll. All forum trolls are, by definition, scrubs.


While I am ignorant of who you are and where you come from, I am generally not an ignorant person. Well, I am, because everyone is really an ignorant person by the definition of ignorance if you really want to get down to arguing philosophy, etymology, and semantics. This however does not stop me from being able to gather information based on what I see and form an opinion based on these data. Some of the data which I am using to form my current opinion is that you troll the forums daily without any constructive goal, and that you try and make fun of people to get a rise out of them. Like I said, you're nothing more than a scrub. Get a life, fucktard.


The rectum in my skull is inflamed? You're real bright.


I never said anything like this. I stated simply that we are not going to let ANYONE ELSE own the server. We are going to FIGHT LIKE DEMONS for the lion's share, because we are the lion, but we don't feel entitled. Honestly, what we REALLY want is FFA so we can own your faces in honest competition, but you guys are such scrubs you won't agree to it.


Does writing stuff like this make you feel better about yourself? Whatever works I guess.

You take the time to write a wall of text in my honor.

Your superior class is just too much for me! Thanks for making me feel special.

[Hasbinbad]

camping a mob isnt effort its retarded.

anyway if they want to claim a spawn they'll need a force able to take it -- 15 able players(46+) is what it takes to start the engage timer( 2 hours). Thats non-afk moving players btw. If two or more guilds are present for the spawn, which is very unlikely given the spawn time variance, then they should /random 1000 for the spawn.

Engage timer is only started when theres competition for a spawn, it is ONLY to decide who gets first shot at a mob. You need 15 players to start the 2 hour engage period on the other guild. The first guild present needs to be able to prove that they got 15 moving players.

Spawn time, even if random, can be seen by GMs. This rule is impervious only if GMs shut their mouth about spawn time. I'll be very suspicious if a guild is waiting on a spawn then it happens very shortly after they assemble a force.

These rules are only for dragons.

Planar rules should be whoever break the plane gets the first shot at the easy boss/god.
Planar leapfrogging in my mind is very cheap. Although you can have a force ready for a easy boss/god if the first guild fails their first attempt.

Plane trash should work like this: if you broke the plane, you own all the trash inside until you leave. If you stay for respawns, then the respawns are yours until you decide to leave.


so if something in there sounds unfair to you guys, please make tweaks and suggestions.

There are way too many complicated rules in this system. Way too much room to abuse it. Way too easy for trans to park 15 people in a zone. Way too hard to police who is non afk. you're asking for GM's to get involved. They have stated they don't want to get involved. I cannot believe you're actually asking trans to play fair when it comes to planar leapfrogging. They have shown over and over again that with or without some formal set of rules they will not be honorable. Please stop equating our ability to follow rules with theirs, because although we might stick to something like this, they never will.

[Hasbinbad]

So if your guild is retarded enough to camp dragons for 72 hours straight -- go for it.

Remember that if a guild shows up and you have 17 players but 4 arent moving/obviously afk when the other guild has 15 players moving, you're losing your shot.


These rules are easily player enforceable, which is the MAIN thing about this shitstorm right now. I want the GMs to stay out of this. The GMs want to stay out of this. They want us to police ourselves.

When you make suggestions, KEEP THAT IN MIND!
This is stupid. I'm not willing to never get a shot at content because trans is willing to camp something for 72 hours. Way too hard to police who is afk. they will never admit to afk even if they are. This idea has no shot in hell of working.

[Wonton]

Champions of Norrath GO! No spawn variances.

[Deanob]

http://michael-shirley.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/roflbrothel.gif

[Hasbinbad]

I think supreme is angry cuz he'll never obtain a title as long as he's in Transcendence. oh god, here he goes again

:p

[Hasbinbad]

I dont think plane rotation is needed here. I think guild can have enough courtesy to not stay in a plane for 10 days straight.
Trans has shown over and over again that they cannot be trusted as far as they can be thrown. We will never operate under any system that requires them to show courtesy.

[Hasbinbad]

You take the time to write a wall of text in my honor.

Your superior class is just too much for me! Thanks for making me feel special.
Small troll.
That is not a wall of text, that is me quickly refuting your baseless claims.
This (http://project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=9566&postcount=12) is a wall of text. This (http://project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=9566&postcount=12) is what happens when I actually care.

[Supreme]

Failtrain?
We never said anything like that.
Nobody thinks you speak for IB, and your faulty paraphrasing is just seen as immature ranting. We never said anything remotely like this. We do not feel entitled to own the content, but we're not going to sit by idly while the Tranny Horde tries to claim content with zerg tactics. Just like we rolled over you at Nagafen, we would much rather fight you for the content than have it given to us. If you think you're our equals, then let's FFA, otherwise shut your filthy sperm receptacle (mouth).


Here is your STATEMENT which by the number of posts you have made thus far would constitute a representative of IB.

We deserved that shot and had the rug pulled out from under us. We were stuck doing menial bullshit for weeks while the undedicated masses had a carebears dreamshot at catching up. Now that content is more available, these pricks who have trashed us for weeks demand that we give them equal treatment.

This is why IB was complaining.

How does that crow taste?

[Hasbinbad]

http://michael-shirley.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/roflbrothel.gif

This is what I see in my head when Trans wipes to vox without having a single cleric bound in perma.

[Hasbinbad]

Here is your STATEMENT which by the number of posts you have made thus far would constitute a representative of IB.



How does that crow taste?

Saying we deserve a shot and saying we are entitled to own every mob in the game are two entirely different things.

While I have never met her and certainly never tasted her, I would assume the answer to your question is "pretty fucking good." If you had ever seen Crow, you'd think she prolly tastes pretty good too. Unless you're not into girls. Which is probably true.

[Supreme]

This is what I see in my head when Trans wipes to vox without having a single cleric bound in perma.

ok.

[Deanob]

This is what I see in my head when Trans wipes to vox without having a single cleric bound in perma.

Its ok dude. They got a KS group. They don't need clerics.

[Supreme]

Its ok dude. They got a KS group. They don't need clerics.

You should probably stop with the "specific groups for specific mobs" banter.

It is part of almost every raid. MT Group/Caster groups/DPS groups.

I am not sure what your point is but for some reason you seem to really only amusing yourself with it.

[Deanob]

You should probably stop with the "specific groups for specific mobs" banter.

It is part of almost every raid. MT Group/Caster groups/DPS groups.

I am not sure what your point is but for some reason you seem to really only amusing yourself with it.

http://forums.clubrsx.com/images/smilies/rotfl.gif

because its funny

[Hasbinbad]

you seem to really only amusing yourself with it.

I love quoting your awsum gramer!
He is not alone! I am also amused.

[Supreme]

Saying we deserve a shot and saying we are entitled to own every mob in the game are two entirely different things.

While I have never met her and certainly never tasted her, I would assume the answer to your question is "pretty fucking good." If you had ever seen Crow, you'd think she prolly tastes pretty good too. Unless you're not into girls. Which is probably true.

You might try and confuse readers but your words are seen for what they mean. There is some idea in your head that because you have leveled faster and have made a guild of like minded people that it somehow has entitled you to the content without regard for anyone else on the server.


Regardless of that the decision has been made and a system is in place.

Take care.

[Supreme]

I love quoting your awsum gramer!
He is not alone! I am also amused.

I am glad i am here for your amusement.

What a pathetic life you must live.

[Hasbinbad]

Blah blah.. There is some idea in your head that because you have leveled faster and have made a guild of like minded people that it somehow has entitled you to the content without regard for anyone else on the server. Blah blah..
You're like the little dog from Merry Melodies. You yip at the heels of the bulldog until he smacks you down the street, and then immediately run back and start happily yipping away as if you didn't just get smacked.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/54/Spikechester1.jpg

[Bigcountry23]

I have a good solution to the dragon problem atm.

Both Vox and Naggy pop at 8AM PST on Saturday morning. One guild goes after one, the other guild goes after the other (One guild can't take both at the same time right?).

Not "classic" but niether is forced rotation, PVP death matches to determine the spawn, Etc.

[Matrim]

That's great in theory. In practice, though, I think both guilds would show up in sol b.

[Widan]

So before Hasbinbad and Supreme started embarassing themselves for multiple pages, what was the argument against implementing spawn rotation right this very minute?

[Bigcountry23]

Saying we deserve a shot and saying we are entitled to own every mob in the game are two entirely different things.

While I have never met her and certainly never tasted her, I would assume the answer to your question is "pretty fucking good." If you had ever seen Crow, you'd think she prolly tastes pretty good too. Unless you're not into girls. Which is probably true.

Um, she doesn't believe in using TP, so you may want to rethink that.

http://newsbusters.org/node/12226

And now that we have had a moment of frivolity, back to the serious business that is this topic.

[Hasbinbad]

Um, she doesn't believe in using TP, so you may want to rethink that.

http://newsbusters.org/node/12226

And now that we have had a moment of frivolity, back to the serious business that is this topic.

Copters de la roffle.

[Hasbinbad]

So before Hasbinbad and Supreme started embarassing themselves for multiple pages, what was the argument against implementing spawn rotation right this very minute?

There have been several threads and literally dozens of replies flooding these boards about why the rotation is stupid. You're really accusing me of embarrassing myself while simultaneously asking for information that literally surrounds you on all sides? Really?

[Widan]

I obviously meant spawn variance, which is what this thread is about. But thanks for proving my point!

[Hasbinbad]

I obviously meant spawn variance, which is what this thread is about. But thanks for proving my point!
There have been several threads and literally dozens of replies flooding these boards about why the spawn variance idea is stupid. You're really accusing me of embarrassing myself while simultaneously asking for information that literally surrounds you on all sides? Really?

[Widan]

I haven't seen a single good argument against it. Emphasis on good. All I've seen is crying because people wouldn't get as many mobs as they seem to think they are entitled to.

[Witness]

There have been several threads and literally dozens of replies flooding these boards about why the spawn variance idea is stupid. You're really accusing me of embarrassing myself while simultaneously asking for information that literally surrounds you on all sides? Really?

Just wondering, why exactly is spawn variance stupid? Let's think about it, if this was an adventure game. Would the citizens of Norrath know exactly when and where a dragon is going to be, or would you need to send out your rangers, druids, and bards periodically to try and track these foul beasts down? I really do not like the idea of set spawn times as it takes the sense of adventure and random out of it. There is a whole skill set to raiding that involves tracking a mob and forming a force ASAP as soon as the mob is tracked, that is being completely x'd out with set spawn times. In fact, once you learn a mobs strategy and kill it, recreating the kill is not difficult, the true skill comes from:
Step 1: Track dragon
Step 2: Form capable raid force and get there buffed before other guild can
Step 3: Turn on robot mode for killing dragon.

Eliminating Step 1 and 2 seems like a pretty awful idea to me.

[Hasbinbad]

Just wondering, why exactly is spawn variance stupid? Let's think about it, if this was an adventure game. Would the citizens of Norrath know exactly when and where a dragon is going to be, or would you need to send out your rangers, druids, and bards periodically to try and track these foul beasts down? I really do not like the idea of set spawn times as it takes the sense of adventure and random out of it. There is a whole skill set to raiding that involves tracking a mob and forming a force ASAP as soon as the mob is tracked, that is being completely x'd out with set spawn times. In fact, once you learn a mobs strategy and kill it, recreating the kill is not difficult, the true skill comes from:
Step 1: Track dragon
Step 2: Form capable raid force and get there buffed before other guild can
Step 3: Turn on robot mode for killing dragon.

Eliminating Step 1 and 2 seems like a pretty awful idea to me.

That would all be very true if the dragon could appear anywhere in Norrath.
However, it appears in only one place, which leads to camping for the spawn. Which leads us to these boards. Which leads us to you, posting in ignorance.

[Widan]

Which leads us to you, posting in ignorance.

Being a jerk in every post doesn't help your arguments much.

Camping for a spawn is part of everquest. If you cannot camp the spawn as long as another guild then you don't deserve an equal chance to kill the mob.

[Witness]

That would all be very true if the dragon could appear anywhere in Norrath.
However, it appears in only one place, which leads to camping for the spawn. Which leads us to these boards. Which leads us to you, posting in ignorance.

With spawn variance i think even *you* would not camp a mob for a possible of 48 hours, nor would anyone else. Thus forcing people to track. Mr. Ignorant.

EDIT: Also, if Guild A raid Monday Wednesday Friday and Guild B raids Tuesday Thursday Saturday and Dragon A spawns on Monday. With set spawn tiems, Guild A always gets it, with variance, both guilds have a shot at it.

[Goobles]

I like how, even if there are posts SUPPORTING Hasbin's case, he burns them down too.

I'm convinced that Hasbin lives in a white room and his computer is bolted down, and everything is extra padded for protection in case he goes on a nerd rage and tries to break shit/hurt himrself.

[Hasbinbad]

Nevermind.

[Witness]

Nevermind.

You called me ignorant and I responded with a logical response and all you do is say nevermind? im disappointed..

[Hasbinbad]

I say nevermind because all anyone on this thread is doing anymore is trolling. It was serving a purpose for a while but looks dead to me, so, nevermind.

[Witness]

I say nevermind because all anyone on this thread is doing anymore is trolling. It was serving a purpose for a while but looks dead to me, so, nevermind.

I wasn't trolling. I posted my thoughts on why variance is a good idea, which just so happens to be the purpose of this thread.

[Goobles]

I say nevermind because all anyone on this thread is doing anymore is trolling. It was serving a purpose for a while but looks dead to me, so, nevermind.

In Hasbin speak, that means he doesn't know how else to counter the argument... and will cease his douchebaggery for the moment.

[Reiyz]

If you have a variance on the spawn of EVERY RAID BOSS, and you limit the rules that a guild can only physically camp and be able to claim one mob upon it's spawn, then everything is gravy.

People are still going to camp; but they can't camp everything and while they're sitting there camping the precious spawn of nagafen, Fear could pop allowing some other guild to jump in there while Group A is still all "WHERE IS MY NAGGY."

Thus leading to a highly inefficient guild, unable to ACTUALLY mobilize when it counts.

[Andman]

Hey there,

I am in neither guild, but I posted an idea that I consider to be worth a look.

Page 8 of this post:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1489

It is a variation of the idea presented by Hasbinbad

[Hasbinbad]

Hey there,

I am in neither guild, but I posted an idea that I consider to be worth a look.

Page 8 of this post:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1489

It is a variation of the idea presented by Hasbinbad

You just linked my post :P
I can't believe that not only do you try to hijack my post, but you advertise the hijack in another thread.
You're full of win.
Here dude, take this. (http://project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=10496#post10496)

[Andman]

eh?

[Hasbinbad]

eh?

This (http://project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=10496#post10496) or the topic. Don't start whole new conversations in the middle of other peoples topics.
It doesn't really matter here, this topic is "mostly dead" I think.

[darkkor]

If you have a variance on the spawn of EVERY RAID BOSS, and you limit the rules that a guild can only physically camp and be able to claim one mob upon it's spawn, then everything is gravy.

Exactly, especially the bold part.

On my server it was first guild to get there ONCE THE TARGET POPS gets the first crack. This is hands down the best way to handle racing to spawns. You still get to compete over the spawns and use scouts to tell when something pops but you can't sit there 15 hours before a mob spawns with your entire raid and say 'camped', the guild can only mobilize once it's actually up.

So much better than trying to whack it first then have a possible KS situation (sometimes only allegedly) which was happening weeks ago from what I hear and was a big reason for the many GM interventions which can be avoided as long as you use a system that doesn't require "tapping" the mob. This system does that but still keeps the power in the players hands.

[Hasbinbad]

the guild can only mobilize once it's actually up
Who is going to police this?

[darkkor]

Who is going to police this?

Well, the guilds themselves agree to the rule, and of course any breaking of the rule gets taken up with GMs. The only part that needs to be "policed" really is making sure there isn't X amount of Y guild in the zone before the mob spawns. That could be handled easily I think. (X to be agreed upon, preferably no more than 1 group)

This rule keeps the competition-racing-to-a-spawn without 2 guilds arguing over who tagged it first and then who KS'ed the other.

You can still have it come down to whoever engages first instead of whoever gets there first, as long as the guild mobilized only after the mob spawned. You can go either way with it. I would think it's rare that both the guilds would get there ready to pull at the exact same time if they both left after their scouts tell them "Vox is up!"

I see it like this. Say you have a running race. Start the 2 runners off at the finish line, and you'll have many arguments over who finished first once the gun goes off. You would need technology (slow motion camera lol) to determine it.

Now, start the runners off at the beginning of the race down the street and most likely they will get there at 2 different times and the winner will be more clear cut more often.

Make sense? Sound feasible?

I really only see it working like this, the way it was with all the fighting weeks ago, or the way it is now with a mandatory rotation. I've seen some other gimicky ideas that sound cool, but this really keeps it classic and minimizes tag arguments and KS allegations.

PS - A little bit of time variance couldn't hurt too much either. Make each spawn vary by about 6 hours and then tack on the above rule, THEN you would REALLY have a spontaneous guild race to engage first and it would be extremely rare that any 2 guilds are perfectly ready to pull at the exact same time as another. Once the engage happens the other guild must back out and continue to mobilize / buff behind them.

[Hasbinbad]

Well, the guilds themselves agree to the rule, and of course any breaking of the rule gets taken up with GMs.
Certain players have shown that they cannot follow agreements which are not set in stone and impossible to find a loophole around. GM's have stated that they will not be involved.

[Reiyz]

I didn't actually mean, no more camping.

I'm all for camping. I think it should be THREE FULL GROUPS though, and not 15 people.

If 18 people want to sit at a mob for 15 hours, then like Witness said I feel that they deserve it.

[Nizzarr]

Yea, can we remove every and all of hasbinbad's post in this thread? just keep one where he states his opinions on this. Then we can all move on and not deal with that any of his naysaying.

so to reiterate hasbinbad point of view on this:

1) he doesnt trust transcendence to play fair on this, thats his point of view.

Even though transcendence didnt really play unfair lately concerning rotations( I dont count the camping of nagafen that day, you went around the rules because no one set clear rules. if anything it was a precedent to set more rules). I believe transcendence would play fair until shown otherwise( which they never did to my knowledge, as far as claiming mobs)

2) he really likes the idea of a rotation.

Thats his point of view and I dont agree with it, and many others dont as well.


Thats about it.

[Widan]

Exactly, especially the bold part.
On my server it was first guild to get there ONCE THE TARGET POPS gets the first crack. This is hands down the best way to handle racing to spawns. You still get to compete over the spawns and use scouts to tell when something pops but you can't sit there 15 hours before a mob spawns with your entire raid and say 'camped', the guild can only mobilize once it's actually up.


No, you should be able to sit in the zone for as long as you want before the mob spawns if you so choose. This is everquest, time gets rewarded. What this solves is being able to sit in every raid zone with a capable force, which won't be possible.

[Hasbinbad]

Yea, can we remove every and all of hasbinbad's post in this thread? just keep one where he states his opinions on this. Then we can all move on and not deal with that any of his naysaying.

so to reiterate hasbinbad point of view on this:

1) he doesnt trust transcendence to play fair on this, thats his point of view.

Even though transcendence didnt really play unfair lately concerning rotations( I dont count the camping of nagafen that day, you went around the rules because no one set clear rules. if anything it was a precedent to set more rules). I believe transcendence would play fair until shown otherwise( which they never did to my knowledge, as far as claiming mobs)

2) he really likes the idea of a rotation.

Thats his point of view and I dont agree with it, and many others dont as well.


Thats about it.
I lol'd irl.
This spawn variance has no chance of being fair. We may as well hand every spawn to trans and just quit now. They recruit thousands of scrubs and will camp everything for days. They have already done this.

Stick your head in the sand more Nizzarr.

Can we delete all of Nizzarr's posts about how great this system is? Just create one where it states what his opinion is. Then we can move on and not deal with any of his false hope.

Here is a recap of Nizzarr's opinion:

1.) He is a greedy bastard who wants - at all costs - more than an equal share of mobs and is operating under the delusion that just because we're more coordinated that we can, over time, defeat a zerg as far as spawn rules are concerned.

2.) He doesn't realize that even if they don't cheat again (I don't care if it wasn't cheating in the exact sense that they could cheat again, they cheated which tells us a lot about their character), Trans will most likely figure out some way within the rules to send one pregnant ranger into a lair and ten minutes later the entire zone is crawling with zerglings who will claim camped and prevent us from legitimately engaging a raid target ever.

That is his point of view and I don't agree with it, and many others don't as well.

That's about it.

[Widan]

I lol'd irl.
We may as well hand every spawn to trans and just quit now. They recruit thousands of scrubs and will camp everything for days. They have already done this.


I don't see any problem at all with this, infact that is what is supposed to happen. If they have more people and can camp for more hours then it follows that they would get more raid mobs.

[Reiyz]

I don't see any problem at all with this, infact that is what is supposed to happen. If they have more people and can camp for more hours then it follows that they would get more raid mobs.

Exactly.

Dedication = winning at Everquest.

This game has ALWAYS followed this formula.

Hours you put in + hours those around you put in = success in everquest.

[Dartagnan]

While I initially disagree because of it doesn't seem classic, I think this is the best solution to the whole raid encounter problem.

If guilds cannot agree to compete with static spawn times then this is the next best solution in my book and I fully support and will champion this decision.

I absolutely do not want rotation and if it comes down to a variance in spawn time to get people on board then I am 100% fully in support of this idea.

[Finawin]

I don't see any problem at all with this, infact that is what is supposed to happen. If they have more people and can camp for more hours then it follows that they would get more raid mobs.

Stop making sense, right now.

[Maximus]

Hear ye hear ye! I ask for your attention, O brothers and sisters, for one important issue of our beloved game, the infamous Spawn Variance.

Here's the breakdown:
Upon the opening of raid scene on the P1999 server, standard rules were followed as they were back on classic EQ. for those of you who are not familiar, since this system barely got to peak its head out, i will introduce the concept here.
CLASSICAL SYSTEM
STATIC 7 day spawns on all major raid targets (Nagafen, Vox, Innoruuk, Cazic Thule)
STATIC 3 day spawns on Dracoliche and Maestro of Rankor.
HISTORY:
One of the reasons that this system was taken out was because of guilds using the strategy of camping a mob 1 day before it spawned to acquire security on that mob.
PROBLEMS: guilds who felt wronged by this show of endurance, AKA camping, resorted to classical strategies of training, leapfrogging, asshatery.


ENFORCED ROTATION
STATIC 7 day spawns on all major raid targets (Nagafen, Vox, Innoruuuk, Cazic Thule)
STATIC 3 day spawns on Dracoliche and Maestro of Rankor.
HISTORY:
Due to the unsettlement between rival guilds and whining about how camping a mob was NON skilled, an enforced rotation was implemented between raiding forces.
PROBLEMS: the aspect of competition seemed to be taken out of the game, as it was guaranteed raid bosses to each guild.
this strategy was also viewed as being unclassical, which it is, something being unheard of in everquest, unless implemented by an agreement made by top guilds.

SPAWN VARIANCE
A spawn variance time of +/- 48 hours on all major raid targets (Nagafen, Vox, Innoruuk, Cazic Thule)
A spawn variance time of +/- 24 hours on Dracoliche and Maestrro of Rankor
HISTORY:
After the loss of competitive edge through the unclassic enforced rotation, Spawn variance is added to raid encounters, According to Nilbog, to promote fairness and competition.
PROBLEMS:
It has become more and more evident that we have gone back to phase one, and become campers of mobs for days upon days, waiting for that variance to hit its sweetspot. This seems to go 360 around to the beginning, when whining about camping seemed to be the problem with classic spawn times.

since this is not a perfect world, we are all aware that third party software exists and hackers are not unheard of. this is the same problem sony had back in the day on regular everquest, although it was not as severe, since something like spawn variance did not exist.
NOT POINTING ANY FINGERS AT ANYONE, as any of us could be guilty of using such software, but spawn variance promotes the use of outside help, cheating to acquire a certain edge over raid encounters.

RECAP:
CLASSICAL RULES
Camping mobs (to some, a show of competition)
Training, leapfrogging, asshatery.
Competitive and fair according to sony, the bringers of Everquest.
Third party software threats like showeq and macroquest= low, if any.
ENFORCED ROTATION
No camping of mobs (Loss of competitive edge)
Training, leapfrogging, asshatery removed (mostly).
barely competitive, but fair according to the GMs decisions at the time.
Third party software threats like showeq and macroquest= present, but low (tiki hehe) douche.
SPAWN VARIANCE
Camping mobs ( to some, a show of competition, endurance)
Training, leapfrogging, asshatery.
Competitive edge is back, but fairness....
Third Party software threats like showeq and macroquest=HIGH

Im not gonna point any fingers, as i dont wanna go through the trolling of PROVIDE INFO, PICS BLAH BLAH...
but if you GMs wanna promote competition and fairness in this good game of ours, please remove the spawn variance, and let it go back to its classical roots of normal everquest spawns.
IF CAMPING MOBS is not skilled and was what we were trying tofix initially, we haven't, and gone right back to camping with the new system. (Camping is fine by my book, its done in classic everquest, at evil eye spawn, and psychedelic music festivals)
IF PROMOTING FAIRNESS IF WHAT WE WERE LOOKING FOR, we have done the opposite, and left a wide open door for third party software use.
IF AVOIDING TRAINING, LEAPFROGGING, ASSHATERY is what the goal was, it hasn't worked perfectly, and its something that can only be settled between players ingame.
IF PROMOTING COMPETITION is what we were looking for, well, we're not any more competitive camping mobs now than we were at the beginning. sure gathering a force at 3 in the morning is impressive (maybe) but i think its much more competitive for a team of 20 or so to outstrategize two or possibly three other forces to acquire the kill on a dragon.
is this savage? maybe
is this competition at its best? you damn right.
would classical rules of everquest RID of the threat of unskilled advantages over a 10 year old game? hell yes.
IF YOU WANNA PROMOTE FAIRNESS AND COMPETITION, GET RID OF THE SPAWN VARIANCE, AS IT IS NOT CLASSIC AND LEAVES A WIDE OPEN DOOR FOR CHEATING. NO MORE BABYSITTING FROM THE GMs, LET THE BEST GUILD LIVE, AND THRIVE, FAIRLY, AND COMPETITIVELY.

Any imput, feedback, or thoughts on this would be much appreciated.
Thank you for your time ladies and gentlemen.

Mythoxxus

[karsten]

didn't read

[yaaaflow]

tl;dr: spawn variance is better, except in the case where someone has some sort of magical program that lets them predict when raid mobs will be spawning?

[Deanob]

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x294/sixfourtykilo/2i2bmv8.gif

[Hasbinbad]

QQ.. ..Im not gonna point any fingers, as i dont wanna go through the trolling of PROVIDE INFO, PICS BLAH BLAH.. ..QQ.. ..Mythoxxus
As if you COULD provide _any_ such "info" or "pics" if you wanted to.

LOL dude, your QQ sustains me.

Funniest post of the month!!

[Maximus]

Lets see, Ib troll 1, IB troll 2, IB troll 3, IB troll 4. ANYONE else other than the regulars

[karsten]

Hear ye hear ye!


http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/chrono/images/d/d8/Gato.png

[Glitch]

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/chrono/images/d/d8/Gato.png

OMG someone please roll a bard in full rubi named Gato.

also have metal joints

[Hasbinbad]

metal joints
http://www.420auction.com/auctions/dugout.jpg?

[Zithax]

Question: What if more than one force decides to camp a raid mob as soon as it dies, for all seven days?

Get at me son

[Maximus]

Please do not post unless you got something constructive to add here. pictures and trolling belongs and rants and flames section.
Mythoxxus

[Maximus]

Question: What if more than one force decides to camp a raid mob as soon as it dies, for all seven days?

Get at me son

then this will come down to the judgement of the common people. if you really believe people are gonna camp a mob for seven days (seriously? you guys whined about us camping 1 day ahead, which started this whole mess) then let them decide amongst themselves what seems to be fair, whether rolling for the mob, or competitively enduring all 7 days and then finishing the mob on their terms, granted a 3rd or 4th guild does not come along and take the mob, or perhaps a raid of 60 commoners.
Its up to the people to decide what they respect.

[Zithax]

Also you're a fucking idiot. You realize that's what we wanted in the first place? (minus camping mobs for days and days you are dumb for that) LOL now your shit guild doesn't get anything and you're trying to reverse the situation... no thanks pal

Get at me son

[Maximus]

You realize that's what we wanted in the first place?
Get at me son

then lets getcha what you wanted then, as we did not oppose to this either, your guilds attitude and unwillingness to comply with anything started the whole forced rotation. Lets get back to classical raid rules, which is what the people wanted.
Mythoxxus

[Zithax]

as we did not oppose to this either, your guilds attitude and unwillingness to comply with anything started the whole forced rotation. Lets get back to classical raid rules, which is what the people wanted.
Mythoxxus

hahahaha no it isnt you idiot, have you even paid attention to the happenings of this server at all?

[erifmir]

Can a mod please remove the <<<waa waa pay attention to meeeee>>> from the title?

I accidentally thought this was an important topic. I want my 5 minutes back (although that chair gif was p cool).

[Hasbinbad]

Its up to the people to decide what they respect.
They have, asshole, the leadership of Divinity and now Gothic Circle have both said they want to scrap it out and take what's theirs.

You're the only one whining.

You can try to make it seem like it was Inglourious Basterds that had the raid system changed ALL YOU WANT buddy, but some of us have an alternate view of history.

I seem to remember a day when raid bosses were NOT REGULATED by any rules except KS. There was no firm camp policy, there was no such thing. I seem to remember a certain guild thinking - for no apparent reason - that just because they put ass to floor for 24 hours, that that somehow entitled them to claim on a boss that hadn't even spawned yet.

That was ridiculous, so we forced the issue.

The GM ruled in Transcendence's favor, for WHATEVER REASON, but that does NOT FUCKING IMPLY that the rules were like that in the first place. You fucking moron.

It was only after THAT incident, and not any whining from IB, that the decision to implement the rotation was made public.

2 things:
a.) The "old way" (old system would be a misnomer) WAS THE PROBLEM. It required GM involvement every time. You guys were given Nagafen on a ONE TIME basis in respect for your time spent (or whatEVER), there was never "camping" allowed on raid mobs, and no amount of QQ will ever make that true.
b.) The GM's (Aeolwind and Wenai) stated then that the rotation was a temporary solution, sticking a finger in the dike (^^), to end the need for GM intervention. This rule was NOT IMPLEMENTED because of any amount of bitching, no matter how romantic that sounds in your novel.

You, here, now.. ..it's just fucking hilarious.

Please keep QQ'ing, I'm getting really stoned, and this is fucking awesome.

[Dukat]

As if you COULD provide _any_ such "info" or "pics" if you wanted to.

You are awfully happy we don't have pics aren't you? Yes, its been kind of difficult finding a way to get a screenshot of someone else's monitor.

There was that time we were clearing fear and all of a sudden a IB raid ports in, sees us there, and then ports out. Exactly 3 hours later CT pops. Just a coincidence I guess.

But I digress...

[karsten]

that's an interesting theory that i've never heard or talked about before


but i digress

[Maximus]

They have, asshole, the leadership of Divinity and now Gothic Circle have both said they want to scrap it out and take what's theirs.

Then let them agree here, and we can all come to an appeasement. Also lets hear from the rest of server, as everyone is going to want to raid at some point. Its not my world, its not your world. settle with that fact.

You can try to make it seem like it was Inglourious Basterds that had the raid system changed ALL YOU WANT buddy, but some of us have an alternate view of history.

Nizzarr, of inglorious basterds, did come up with the spawn variance, and while this would work in a perfect world, Norrath is not one.

I seem to remember a day when raid bosses were NOT REGULATED by any rules except KS. There was no firm camp policy, there was no such thing. I seem to remember a certain guild thinking - for no apparent reason - that just because they put ass to floor for 24 hours, that that somehow entitled them to claim on a boss that hadn't even spawned yet.

if your only rule is to KS, instead of settling like real people, then there is PVP for you. while i don't think KSing, leapfrogging, asshatery is the best way to settle a kill, i would 100% say ANYONE would rather have this than the POSSIBILITY of cheating, hacking, blah blah. and if you guys have nothing to worry about, then whats the big deal? im saving you 4 day guessing camping useless zones.

The GM ruled in Transcendence's favor, for WHATEVER REASON, but that does NOT FUCKING IMPLY that the rules were like that in the first place. You fucking moron.
GMs ruled in favor of whatever they saw fit for the situation. if you're implying GM favoritism, then you're still months behind, and possibly a few brain cells short.
smoke more, or smoke less, stop being a halfass stoner.
Mythoxxus

[Taluvill]

IB and you guys Whined and cried because we could camp a mob for a long time. Big whoop. So you almost trained/killed us/KS'ed us because you guys decided the rules didn't apply to you. I specifically remember Wenai saying that. They changed to a rotation because you guys were going overboard.


An entire guild cannot be in, now, 4 zones at once with 6 boss mobs, nor can any single guild camp 6 bosses (assuming that you can only call one boss at a time) for 24 hours every day of the week. It just isnt happening.

If people want to camp, everyone can strategically decided what 2-3 mobs are worth their time that week, and go after them. Using a normal, classic system, Guilds like Gothic Circle or Europa can have a shot at mobs with camping.

If a guild camps a mob for a week, they aren't getting other spawns artard. So if they want to really waste their ENTIRE week (meaning they have no job/wife/anything to do) on one mob, then they can.



Bring back regular spawns with set camping rules (IE: Must have 20 Present at the encounter to claim it. You then move out to a pull spot when your about 30 minutes from the pop, buff and get ready, it pops, it dies)

And i would like to hear the opinion of another guild other than IB trying to drown out an idea that they disagree with. Lets hear all sides. If GC and Div and company would rather keep it the way it is... with 3 am dragon raids that 99% of the server cant attend or even attempt to kill (its 10 years later, not everyone is 18. I am, but most people here aren't and didnt play this game when they were 8) because of what i just mentioned in parenthesis, and because they have jobs, families, kids...



Just a bunch of stuff to think about. What Myth said is 100% true.

[Hasbinbad]

Yeah Nizzarr came up with it, I know that. I snapped at him hella hard over that. If you remember, I had several OTHER ideas.

The fact that Nizzarr wrote the framework for the current system has NOTHING to do with the fact that NILBOG implemented it. Moron.

KS is a SERVER rule. The only SERVER rule that covered the Nagafen situation that night. That you're implying it's somehow my rule is cute. You're cute.

Not implying GM favoritism dude. Not implying anything. I threw my hands up in the air as to the "why" of that (and many other) situations a long time ago.

[karsten]

talu your opinion is also valid along with that of mythoxxus and I value them both greatly due to their unbiased style and concise flow of thought-process

[Taluvill]

Then let them agree here, and we can all come to an appeasement. Also lets hear from the rest of server, as everyone is going to want to raid at some point. Its not my world, its not your world. settle with that fact.



Nizzarr, of inglorious basterds, did come up with the spawn variance, and while this would work in a perfect world, Norrath is not one.


if your only rule is to KS, instead of settling like real people, then there is PVP for you.


GMs ruled in favor of whatever they saw fit for the situation. if you're implying GM favoritism, then you're still months behind, and possibly a few brain cells short.
smoke more, or smoke less, stop being a halfass stoner.
Mythoxxus

Myth. I love you dude.



if your only rule is to KS, instead of settling like real people, then there is PVP for you.

Look at Nilbogs Signigture. This is exactly what he doesnt want.



GMs ruled in favor of whatever they saw fit for the situation. if you're implying GM favoritism, then you're still months behind, and possibly a few brain cells short.
smoke more, or smoke less, stop being a halfass stoner.


Where did that tinfoil hat go? time for Hasbin to wear it again.

[karsten]

oh, also, I'm glad that we can finally have a nuanced, civil talk about this important issue, and I'm certain that real change will be the fruit of our labor

[Taluvill]

talu your opinion is also valid along with that of mythoxxus and I value them both greatly due to their unbiased style and concise flow of thought-process

How is it biased when only IB gets raid mobs at the moment?

I believe we speak for most of the server here. I think you guys jumped on and got all on the defensive because if this goes through, you guys will not get every single boss that ever spawns.

Turn off /greed and stop being jackasses and look at the situation from an outsiders point of view:

We have 30 people that don't jobs, real lives, girls(ouch), school, or whatever it may be for your particular situation. EQ is your priority in life and you guys make it that way. This band of 30 adventurers gets every major boss spawn, raid target, or what have you, on a daily basis, with raids happening anywhere from 3pm to 3am because this group can sport 30 at a raid at any point in the day or any section of the week.

If you dont think THAT is biased, look in the mirror.

[Dukat]

Karsten I can interview you to join Trans if you want

[Taluvill]

Karsten I can interview you to join Trans if you want

We are actually recruiting palidans. Go Barthorn!

[karsten]

oh did you just pull the lack of girlfriend card?

ouchhhhhh

[Maximus]

oh, also, I'm glad that we can finally have a nuanced, civil talk about this important issue, and I'm certain that real change will be the fruit of our labor

Sound reasoning from Karsten? My vote of guild leadership to that guy.

Also more from other guilds and people? throw in your 2 cents, and may the GMs make the fittest decision.

Mythoxxus

[Hasbinbad]

you guys decided the rules didn't apply to you.
There were no rules except "don't KS" which applied to that situation.
Bring back regular spawns with set camping rules (IE: Must have 20 Present at the encounter to claim it. You then move out to a pull spot when your about 30 minutes from the pop, buff and get ready, it pops, it dies)
You can say "bring back" as many times as you want, blowhard. No amount of repetition will change the fact that no such rules existed. What you are proposing here is an ENTIRELY NEW SYSTEM. I don't have any problem with that, but call a duck a duck and stop trying to change history.
What Myth said is 100% true.
Yes, Tallivul, we know that you think you can wish things true.

Here is one you might find more useful to your immediate situation:

Transcendence is NOT a dead guild wildly heaving in its dying throes, and they really WILL get a raid mob some day.

Say it enough times, and it just might come true.

[Taluvill]

You realize that's what we wanted in the first place?

Get at me son


then lets getcha what you wanted then, as we did not oppose to this either, your guilds attitude and unwillingness to comply with anything started the whole forced rotation. Lets get back to classical raid rules, which is what the people wanted.
Mythoxxus

This

Edit: Bed. I'll talk to you all tomorrow, I would also love to hear an opinion from someone not in IB or Trans, or a GM(Preferably this one when all valid points have been argued)

[Dukat]

Say it enough times, and it just might come true.

Nah, you've been saying dumb stuff for months now and all of it is still false.

[karsten]

k myth and i'm glad you liked my comments but what i actually meant was the opposite, not sure if you noticed that but it's what I did

[Hasbinbad]

Nah, you've been saying dumb shit for months now and all of it is still false.
It only works when Tallivul does it.

[Taluvill]

Sorry, this one was a bit too much to just go to bed over heh.


Transcendence is NOT a dead guild wildly heaving in its dying throes, and they really WILL get a raid mob some day.

No, we are not a dead guild. VERY Far from it. Ask our members if we're dead. Any one of us can tell you just how we're doing.

You can say "bring back" as many times as you want, blowhard. No amount of repetition will change the fact that no such rules existed. What you are proposing here is an ENTIRELY NEW SYSTEM. I don't have any problem with that, but call a duck a duck and stop trying to change history.

The idea is that spawn variance isn't classic, and I personally feel that im asking for the old ways back with a few amendments to appease people who disliked parts of the quote on quote "ruleset" (you say there wasnt one except for KSing).

We're just looking for something that is fair and balanced for all. While some think this is, and in a perfect world, this is a great system. Problem is, with 3rd party hacks, this isn't a perfect world. In a perfect world, every country would have some form of communism too. Great on paper, bad in practice.

[Taluvill]

k myth and i'm glad you liked my comments but what i actually meant was the opposite, not sure if you noticed that but it's what I did

Idk if you can tell, but we hit your sarcasm with more sarcasm

[karsten]

not sure if you noticed, but i actually hit your sarcasm with more of my own sarcasm, basically it's like a triple dose of pimpin from ol karsten