Alter End-Game Mechanics

[LizardNecro]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am still interested in hearing proposals for better end game systems. In the past, I have tried to comment on the ones I thought were good and still in the spirit of classic, non-instanced raiding.

If there was a perfect system in which raid targets spawned simultaneously within a certain window:

• Would guilds still poopsock?
• Would a single guild still get most of the targets?

From what I've seen, raiding guilds on p99 have far greater numbers than were historically on my eqlive server. I would hate to make a system that somehow made things worse :T

Anyways, keep up the proposals. Hopefully something is suggested that supports more guilds getting targets without diminishing competition.

I'm very interested in the token system proposed on the sleeper emulator server.
What I like about it is that it gives top guilds the ability to get *most* raid bosses, just not *all* raid bosses.

The token idea, as I understand it, gives guilds the ability to have a certain number of spawns on demand per week. The vast majority of spawns are still normal spawns, and the guild that puts in the most work would get those spawns. But, each guild would still be able to use tokens to get some spawns.

Ravager has made a very good point that most people on this server just want to play EQ cooperatively. They want to kill dragons with friends. The current raid environment doesn't allow this.

I think I'd like to see a solution that has the following criteria:

a) Gives smaller guilds the ability to do content.
b) Gives hard working guilds rewards for their work.

Instances meets a), but doesn't meet b). The current situation meets b), but doesn't meet a).

I think tokens are a great solution that meet a) and b).

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

However, I can see the argument for implementing the "spawned" mobs sooner. Spawned VS, Undead Bard (spawned Trak), spawned Faydedar, moving Hate/Fear epic pieces from the gods to the minibosses; these are all Velious classic changes that we will see on this server, help the raid scene, and can be implemented ahead of time. If you want to stick to classic, then change them when they were chronologically changed, "the change was implemented X months after epic release on Live, so implement it here X months after epics were released on P99, regardless of if Hate as a whole has been updated to 2.0 or if Velious has (not) been released yet."

If not tokens, then this seems like a very nice idea as well.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Danyelle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Had a Culver's near where I used to live up in Ohio. Moved in October, now no Culver's anywhere to be found [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It was indeed delicious food/ice cream.

This is what we should be discussing. We need more conversations about food and less about TMO.

Molly moo's in seattle is pretty awesome ice cream

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by LizardNecro [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm very interested in the token system proposed on the sleeper emulator server.
What I like about it is that it gives top guilds the ability to get *most* raid bosses, just not *all* raid bosses.

The token idea, as I understand it, gives guilds the ability to have a certain number of spawns on demand per week. The vast majority of spawns are still normal spawns, and the guild that puts in the most work would get those spawns. But, each guild would still be able to use tokens to get some spawns.

Ravager has made a very good point that most people on this server just want to play EQ cooperatively. They want to kill dragons with friends. The current raid environment doesn't allow this.

I think I'd like to see a solution that has the following criteria:

a) Gives smaller guilds the ability to do content.
b) Gives hard working guilds rewards for their work.

Instances meets a), but doesn't meet b). The current situation meets b), but doesn't meet a).

I think tokens are a great solution that meet a) and b).




If not tokens, then this seems like a very nice idea as well.

Oh look we are back on topic....good!

[Slave]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nothing can fix the competition aspect other another guild who has the drive to compete all the solutions above would still result in tmo getting a vast majority of the kills.

A competiting guild needs to decide it wants it enough to put in the time to start pinching kills and gearing up.

I totally agree with this part of the quote.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are making a mistaken assumption that TMO won't remain intact and as constructed. We will lose people and gain people over time naturally, but as you said our core can handle it, and a lot of our core has been playing together since 99 others for years as well.

Here is where you lose me. From what I saw of TMO, in an admittedly short period on the inside, is that you are losing your competitive spirit and edge. I was called out for even suggesting that we compete with Bregan over Innoruuk, a significant raid target. He was very late in his window and Bregan had left to kill Severilous. The only reason that they subsequently lost him was the login server outage.

There are a lot of (extremely) hardcore players out there who are no longer a part of TMO or never were and never will be. As soon as TMO starts to lose raid targets, and the recent Bregan-VD merger will certainly cause that to happen soon, you will lose those disgruntled or opportunistic members who joined, having seen TMO as their only choice. Many of those will be highly driven trackers and raid attenders.

Obviously your guild does not strictly need those hardcore people right now, if I was so easily dismissed. After tracking for 20 hours in one week and attending the majority of raids, porting, CotHing for hours, helping at every turn when asked, I think it is safe to say TMO is now at the maximum capacity of players they can handle. And yet Bregan-VD has just become a larger guild, with harder core elements mixed in who can start to influence the whole. When they begin to consistently win Maestro/Inny, CT, Trakanon, and other epic raid mobs, TMO will also lose the "hardcore independents," that very important class of player who wishes to win at EQ. And they will lose them to the very guilds that are defeating TMO, exacerbating the exodus.

A core is very important, but in order to continue winning, you must continue winning, and with the current paradigm that trend is doomed. We of P99 have a relatively small player base and after you decide to remove a dozen or two loyal and productive members for nebulous reasons, you have burned bridges and paved the ground for rival guilds to defeat you.

TMO will not be on top forever, server history has shown this clearly, and the scales will likely tip sooner rather than later, especially with recent officer behaviors contrary to guild health. Removing variance will only speed up this process, and all to the good.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Slave [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I totally agree with this part of the quote.



Here is where you lose me. From what I saw of TMO, in an admittedly short period on the inside, is that you are losing your competitive spirit and edge. I was called out for even suggesting that we compete with Bregan over Innoruuk, a significant raid target. He was very late in his window and Bregan had left to kill Severilous. The only reason that they subsequently lost him was the login server outage.

There are a lot of (extremely) hardcore players out there who are no longer a part of TMO or never were and never will be. As soon as TMO starts to lose raid targets, and the recent Bregan-VD merger will certainly cause that to happen soon, you will lose those disgruntled or opportunistic members who joined, having seen TMO as their only choice. Many of those will be highly driven trackers and raid attenders.

Obviously your guild does not strictly need those hardcore people right now, if I was so easily dismissed. After tracking for 20 hours in one week and attending the majority of raids, porting, CotHing for hours, helping at every turn when asked, I think it is safe to say TMO is now at the maximum capacity of players they can handle. And yet Bregan-VD has just become a larger guild, with harder core elements mixed in who can start to influence the whole. When they begin to consistently win Maestro/Inny, CT, Trakanon, and other epic raid mobs, TMO will also lose the "hardcore independents," that very important class of player who wishes to win at EQ. And they will lose them to the very guilds that are defeating TMO, exacerbating the exodus.

A core is very important, but in order to continue winning, you must continue winning, and with the current paradigm that trend is doomed. We of P99 have a relatively small player base and after you decide to remove a dozen or two loyal and productive members for nebulous reasons, you have burned bridges and paved the ground for rival guilds to defeat you.

TMO will not be on top forever, server history has shown this clearly, and the scales will likely tip sooner rather than later, especially with recent officer behaviors contrary to guild health. Removing variance will only speed up this process, and all to the good.

False prophet- You based your accusations and predictions on 0 evidence

TMO history on this server shows that when we are competing or even losing is when we play the hardest.

[porigromus]

Originally Posted by LizardNecro [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm very interested in the token system proposed on the sleeper emulator server.
What I like about it is that it gives top guilds the ability to get *most* raid bosses, just not *all* raid bosses.

The token idea, as I understand it, gives guilds the ability to have a certain number of spawns on demand per week. The vast majority of spawns are still normal spawns, and the guild that puts in the most work would get those spawns. But, each guild would still be able to use tokens to get some spawns.

Ravager has made a very good point that most people on this server just want to play EQ cooperatively. They want to kill dragons with friends. The current raid environment doesn't allow this.

I think I'd like to see a solution that has the following criteria:

a) Gives smaller guilds the ability to do content.
b) Gives hard working guilds rewards for their work.

Instances meets a), but doesn't meet b). The current situation meets b), but doesn't meet a).

I think tokens are a great solution that meet a) and b).




If not tokens, then this seems like a very nice idea as well.

I think killing creatures and obtaining items to complete a long drawn out quest would be an option for guilds that do not wish to compete with big guilds for random spawns. Think of it like the solution for jboots. To make sure this isn't the ideal method it should quite some time to complete .. not a week .. maybe more like 3 - 6 weeks to complete with everyone in a guild working in tangent collecting items.

Collect 5000000000000000 goblin ears, add super rare custom items to monsters in places that do not get much activity such as "a shattered dragon tooth" etc etc that has to be collected. Create super slow random named monsters that must be killed and collect the head "Sir Norty the Evil Gnome's Head" .. whatever you get the point. After the entire guild gets all the items together maybe add quest to some NPC .. I prefer to keep to the theme of classic and give NPC a regular name, not like some servers "Turninitemshere TurninNPC1" but that is just me. Back on topic ..

You get the point. These would be fun long drawn out activities for bored smaller guilds and also it wouldn't be attractive to big guilds because the current random spawns would still be the fastest most lucrative option which would be definitely needed if this system was implemented.

You want guilds to look at the competitive option as ideal. The other option is just to keep smaller guilds together, with a goal. If this isn't implemented now, I think it should be considered when custom content is thought about in the future. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I didn't spell check but I hope you get the idea.



This would give smaller guilds goals to work towards, keep from getting bored and eventually slowly get loot. It would actually add to the Everquest game.

[Splorf22]

I think that's a lot of makework - of course that's what this game is all about [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you want to implement tokens, I think the best way is simply to give them out to raid leaders with a certain limited frequency (2 per week sounds about right). If you successfully kill said raid mob within one hour, you get your token back one week later. Otherwise it despawns and you don't get your token back for a month or so. All the ordinary boss mob pops would work as normal. It does seem like a reasonable balance between instancing and competition, although I don't know if I like the idea of guilds getting to spawn personalized raid mobs.

[porigromus]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think that's a lot of makework - of course that's what this game is all about [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you want to implement tokens, I think the best way is simply to give them out to raid leaders with a certain limited frequency (2 per week sounds about right). If you successfully kill said raid mob within one hour, you get your token back one week later. Otherwise it despawns and you don't get your token back for a month or so. All the ordinary boss mob pops would work as normal. It does seem like a reasonable balance between instancing and competition, although I don't know if I like the idea of guilds getting to spawn personalized raid mobs.

That takes the EVERquest out of it. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Everquest has always been about long drawn out quest. Lazy to hand guild leaders tokens to activate.

[Galelor]

Originally Posted by bylbob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious will not fix anything without a strong GM team, I have raided very little but yet I saw a lot of dirty and nasty shit going on as some officer, of a well known guild, admitted here... .If you had GMs banning left and right at each bad step (and not come back to their decision because they get facebook bombed by said peoples), the raiding scene will have come to its own solution to resolve the issue at hand pretty fast.

I 100% agree with this quote. Once NToV, a few dragons, and a few named giants are live, the raid scene moves there. The same types of poopsocking, training, and leap frogging are going to happen without a strong GM team. Those of us that raided on live remember the strong GM presence via the bannings/suspensions etc... Think back and remember why Sony moved to instances raiding... Most of us in the end game were actually happier with instances once we got use to them...

We have some real issues on this server that change the classic experience.
1. Expansions and patches do not happen nearly as much as classic.
2. While the GMs here work hard, they are no where near as present as on live.
3. Everyone has a huge bank of internet resources to assist them in EQ. (maps, vent/team speak, highly organized message boards, walk throughs, batphone!.)
4. Spawn variance...

The raid scene here is different from classic due to the above. That means that the raid scene is already not classic.

We are on a so called "friendly" PvE server. If racing, training, and leapfrogging one another are why everyone plays on this server then so be it. That said, I highly doubt that the majority of the server enjoys that type of play...

I like the idea of instances/tolkens as it promotes friendly play (which is what this server is meant to be) and it keeps average guild sizes lower. Considering the server admin doesn't like the way the raid scene is playing out, (see his post on a previous page,) I would suggest people add to this conversation in a more constructive manner.

[porigromus]

Originally Posted by porigromus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think killing creatures and obtaining items to complete a long drawn out quest would be an option for guilds that do not wish to compete with big guilds for random spawns. Think of it like the solution for jboots. To make sure this isn't the ideal method it should quite some time to complete .. not a week .. maybe more like 3 - 6 weeks to complete with everyone in a guild working in tangent collecting items.

Collect 5000000000000000 goblin ears, add super rare custom items to monsters in places that do not get much activity such as "a shattered dragon tooth" etc etc that has to be collected. Create super slow random named monsters that must be killed and collect the head "Sir Norty the Evil Gnome's Head" .. whatever you get the point. After the entire guild gets all the items together maybe add quest to some NPC .. I prefer to keep to the theme of classic and give NPC a regular name, not like some servers "Turninitemshere TurninNPC1" but that is just me. Back on topic ..

You get the point. These would be fun long drawn out activities for bored smaller guilds and also it wouldn't be attractive to big guilds because the current random spawns would still be the fastest most lucrative option which would be definitely needed if this system was implemented.

You want guilds to look at the competitive option as ideal. The other option is just to keep smaller guilds together, with a goal. If this isn't implemented now, I think it should be considered when custom content is thought about in the future. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I didn't spell check but I hope you get the idea.



This would give smaller guilds goals to work towards, keep from getting bored and eventually slowly get loot. It would actually add to the Everquest game.

I have another idea that isn't classic but ....

Why not use the skins of the current dragons and rename them and add additional raid mobs around the world to the point one guild could not possibly kill all of them. The trouble would be to place the dragons in places it wouldn't look odd and wouldn't cause issues. Make these dragons have different mechanics, spawn times, and maybe a rarer chance to drop any loot. It could be same stats as other dragon loot but with different names.