What is BDA doing to work towards a raid agreement?

[Handull]

Edit:

Originally Posted by Sadad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The plan BDA supports:
http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=133456

Thank you for your concern regarding our guild's position.

OP:
All I see on the Raid Discussion forum are proposals from GMs, FE, TMO, and A-Team. To every single proposal I see BDA (most Chest), making short one liners over and over saying they don't like the proposal that was presented with little to no explanation. Other "Tier 2" guilds occasionally chime in with constructive and positive feedback.

So what is BDA doing to actively try and come to an agreement? Kicking and screaming just doesn't cut it, you need to post logical arguments, alternate plans, and in general be willing to compromise.

Yes, BDA made one post of their own on those boards, but it was an explanation of why they are angry, not what they want to do about it. Right now it seems to me that the whole server is trying hard to work together, but BDA is just saying no to everything to make waves. Am I wrong?

[arsenalpow]

FE member. Spare me the rhetoric

[Tasslehofp99]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

FE member. Spare me the rhetoric

One of the most objective FE members at that. He is making a fair observation, not that it matters to you. I understand your desire for change and your hard headed approach to getting things done, though. However you have to realize any good compromise is the one in which all sides walk away feeling unsatisfied after giving up something. You can't get everything you want all the time, a lesson best learned at a young age.


Good luck either way, the attitude youre bringing to the table isn't going to change anything other than people's perception of you as an individual.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Tasslehofp99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One of the most objective FE members at that. He is making a fair observation, not that it matters to you. I understand your desire for change and your hard headed approach to getting things done, though. However you have to realize any good compromise is the one in which all sides walk away feeling unsatisfied after giving up something. You can't get everything you want all the time, a lesson best learned at a young age.


Good luck either way, the attitude youre bringing to the table isn't going to change anything other than people's perception of you as an individual.

1) the hardcore guilds are giving up nothing in these negotiations, in fact they are currently being rewarded for their behavior in the endgame. Things were shut down because of all the comPETITION and now the shitshow they've propagated is being used to say "we compete super hard, and you don't compete, so you don't deserve mobs"

2) something else learned at a young age, sharing, which I guess hasn't been learned from your side either

3) I don't give two fucks about what any individual thinks about me. I'm in these negotiations to represent the best interests of BDA and now I'm taking up the mantle of the casual as well. All of these agreements are stilted to benefit the hardcore guilds, and don't even acknowledge any guild that could be up and coming. The casuals are squarely behind rogean's plan which would give 7 guilds a 50% split of the mobs outside of VP. That's very little pie to divvy up, and even less when more guilds eventually form and work their way up to killing dragons, and you know what, we the casuals don't care. We would rather keep dividing the 50% of the pie ever smaller with more people to maintain a casual environment just to stay away from the hardcore shitshow, but apparently the hardcores need even more than 50% to satiate that pixel thirst

[Handull]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) the hardcore guilds are giving up nothing in these negotiations, in fact they are currently being rewarded for their behavior in the endgame. Things were shut down because of all the comPETITION and now the shitshow they've propagated is being used to say "we compete super hard, and you don't compete, so you don't deserve mobs"

before 'negotiations' the hardcore guilds got almost all of the mobs and the casuals got almost nothing. during the global suspension, everyone gets nothing, so how are the hardcores being rewarded?

the hardcores are happy to give up at least some mobs to the rest of the server, so we ARE giving up something. the details of higher end mobs are contested, but can be negotiated.

even before the gm forced negotiations, fe was drafting a server raid plan.

on the last day before the global suspension, ~6 guilds were mobilizing for a CT pop. FE could have 'zerged' him down within a few minutes of him spawning, but leadership adamantly insisted on waiting 20 minutes to let other guilds engage. Taken got a chance to go in and rush CT, BDA members were zoning in, and about 90 other players were sitting in The Feerrott. After CT died another guild (Azure Guard?) zoned in, and we offered to rez their dead when they asked if they could drag corpses to us. FE wants a fun, competitive raid scene, and we are actively working for that with our words and actions.

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2) sharing, which I guess hasn't been learned from your side either

3) I'm in these negotiations to represent the best interests of BDA

riiiight......

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Handull [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

before 'negotiations' the hardcore guilds got almost all of the mobs and the casuals got almost nothing. during the global suspension, everyone gets nothing, so how are the hardcores being rewarded?

the hardcores are happy to give up at least some mobs to the rest of the server, so we ARE giving up something. the details of higher end mobs are contested, but can be negotiated.

even before the gm forced negotiations, fe was drafting a server raid plan.

on the last day before the global suspension, ~6 guilds were mobilizing for a CT pop. FE could have 'zerged' him down within a few minutes of him spawning, but leadership adamantly insisted on waiting 20 minutes to let other guilds engage. Taken got a chance to go in and rush CT, BDA members were zoning in, and about 90 other players were sitting in The Feerrott. After CT died another guild (Azure Guard?) zoned in, and we offered to rez their dead when they asked if they could drag corpses to us. FE wants a fun, competitive raid scene, and we are actively working for that with our words and actions.

we were zoning in to assist to Taken, BDA was still on 2hour lockout remember?

[Tasslehofp99]

Many of the proposals being agreed upon are giving free mobs to guilds who have never even attempted to kill them/track them. Why is this not enough?

Also, your claims of taking up the mantle lf the casuals is laughable. BDA is the biggest guild on project1999 and would swallow any truly casual guild in head to head competition. This is why you are against any agreement that calls for any head to head competition. Your guild isn't tier 2(too big and capable), and you damn sure aren't tier 1 (unwilling to track/mobilize/compete)

That leaves you with 2 options, agree to compete with guilds on your level (fe/ib/tmo, also why you oppose them at every turn) ..or stomp feet till server is devoid of competition.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Tasslehofp99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Many of the proposals being agreed upon are giving free mobs to guilds who have never even attempted to kill them/track them. Why is this not enough?

Also, your claims of taking up the mantle lf the casuals is laughable. BDA is the biggest guild on project1999 and would swallow any truly casual guild in head to head competition. This is why you are against any agreement that calls for any head to head competition. Your guild isn't tier 2(too big and capable), and you damn sure aren't tier 1 (unwilling to track/mobilize/compete)

That leaves you with 2 options, agree to compete with guilds on your level (fe/ib/tmo, also why you oppose them at every turn) ..or stomp feet till server is devoid of competition.

many guilds have refused to track mobs simply because of the environment that has persisted for a very long time, stop trying to make the argument that because a guild refused to sink to that low level of "competing" means they don't deserve to see content

bda doesn't want to swallow any casual guilds, we only want to raid without having to worry about all the BS that has been the root cause of the problems in the endgame

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) the hardcore guilds are giving up nothing in these negotiations, in fact they are currently being rewarded for their behavior in the endgame. Things were shut down because of all the comPETITION and now the shitshow they've propagated is being used to say "we compete super hard, and you don't compete, so you don't deserve mobs"

2) something else learned at a young age, sharing, which I guess hasn't been learned from your side either

3) I don't give two fucks about what any individual thinks about me. I'm in these negotiations to represent the best interests of BDA and now I'm taking up the mantle of the casual as well. All of these agreements are stilted to benefit the hardcore guilds, and don't even acknowledge any guild that could be up and coming. The casuals are squarely behind rogean's plan which would give 7 guilds a 50% split of the mobs outside of VP. That's very little pie to divvy up, and even less when more guilds eventually form and work their way up to killing dragons, and you know what, we the casuals don't care. We would rather keep dividing the 50% of the pie ever smaller with more people to maintain a casual environment just to stay away from the hardcore shitshow, but apparently the hardcores need even more than 50% to satiate that pixel thirst

You are either lying or really fucking stupid. What plan has the hardcores giving up "nothing" as you put it.

[uygi]

Chest, you're still the best friend I have on this server. You know as well as I do that BDA is capable of competing with just about any guild; the issue is that you don't want the level of poop intensity historically required. Beyond any lawyered out rules, both TMO and FE have made it clear we're hoping to un-poop things because the extremes of the one-upsmanship game are, as you and so many others are quick to point out, absolutely fucking stupid. Nobody blames you for not wanting to, and you've made it clear over the last 2.5 weeks that BDA is certainly capable when they choose to make the effort.

When TMO got raid suspended you came to me looking to open up some dialog, and that's exactly what happened and a good thing came about. The idea behind having an agreement isn't supposed to be about legislating exactly who gets what when and how. The idea is to clean up what is currently a toxic environment, and to allow some access to content for guilds willing to do an appropriate amount of work. Nobody is insisting that 4AM batphones, instant engages with endless DA stalls or VP trainwars are appropriate, because just about everyone agrees that things have gone way too far. You reached out to me and FE to foster a non-toxic environment, even temporarily, and it honestly worked out pretty well. BDA ended up with a large share of mobs, and guilds willing to do a modicum of work got in a kill or three.

I personally think that guilds willing to go to greater lengths need to be rewarded with a larger share of the pie. If we're REALLY trying to split all the guilds into two categories, BDA is a strong contender to be in the top tier. Set head-to-head, BDA would have no trouble defeating the IB of today, and over the last year there have been a lot of mob pops that, had BDA been even loosely tracking, they could have mobilized to (without even having camped out) and gotten a kill on. The primary reason I left BDA was because there was virtually no will to put in even some effort to go after opportunistic situations. In the last... 5 months or so?.. BDA has put in effort to take advantage of the opportunities that present themselves, and I've been really happy to see it. If the spirit of Rogean's original ultimatum gets followed at all, BDA will do just fine.