Game Mechanics: Druid charm should be exempt from CHA checks when determining duration.

[eriamjh]

This is something I have personally experienced myself: Even with a Paw of Opolla on a Halfling Druid with base CHA (50 - 5 = 45 CHA, (_30 under average_)), charm should still land for half to full duration a significant portion of the time. I tested this back in 1999/2000 by charming sonic bats in SolB to level from the mid 40s to 50 and then again to the mid 50s once Kunark came out.

In my experience this worked reliably enough to be a viable soloing method with just a 5-10 level difference, no -MR, and abysmal or better CHA, yet on P99 it is still excessively dangerous even with a 10 level difference, no -MR, and 150 CHA.

Here you need at least two of the three following advantages for charm to be reliable enough to be usable in non-emergencies.

• A 10 level difference (regarded as a 50 charming a level 40 mob with average MR)
• -20 MR from tash, though -40 or more from Tash+Malo is typically required on 45+ mobs for reliable duration (10+ ticks 75% of the time.)
• 150 minimum CHA, though many players swear that 200 is the "turning point" for reliability.

I am still trying to pin down any official statements on the effects of Charisma on Charm, though the only often repeated claim I have come across is that Charisma is the third and least significant check performed in determining charm duration.

Q: What spell types are affected by Charisma?

A: Charisma does not directly affect any spell. Charisma affects what are known as 'saving throws' or 'secondary throws'.

When you cast a charm spell or mesmerise spell, the monster first checks against your level v it's level, then it checks against its resistance, then it checks against your charisma.

With duration spells such as charms, each tick the monster gets a saving throw and this process is repeated. If any one of these checks is successful (ie: you win the roll) then the spell holds.

Be aware thought that each of these checks is not just a 50 - 50 chance, formulas are in place which give each of these checks more or less of a chance for you to succeed.

Charisma has the smallest chance of succeeding. Your Level and the resistance type check have the greatest chance of you succeeding.

(found at http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1148 . Attributed to http://eq.crgaming.com/faq/faq.asp?A...chanter&Page=2 2003-12-30)

In my experience, -MR has the biggest effect followed by CHA, followed by level difference, at least for dark blue monsters at 50 with normal MR.

Here is a discussion I recently stumbled across that has more-or-less reached a consensus that druid charm is barely, if at all, effected by CHA. Also is a quote from another once halfling druid who charm solod with 45 CHA, a near impossibility here.

Originally Posted by http://thedruidsgrove.org/eq/forums/showpost.php?p=73621&postcount=24

I charmed raptors for a few levels.

With Cha at 85.

Charm gear was normal gear for me.

Claims: CHA gear is unnecessary.

I kept the raptors clear with that. I still have not seen any 'science' on whether cha effects animal charming, but my low cha had no effect on my killing with a virtually full bar of mana and very little/no downtime.

Claims: Low CHA has no effect on efficient charm soloing.

Originally Posted by http://thedruidsgrove.org/eq/forums/showpost.php?p=73622&postcount=25

There has always been a debate on Druid charms and the effect of charisma. I can raise mine by over 30 with different gear... and saw NO difference whatsoever.. I'm sure there are others that would swear by it though.

Claims: 30 CHA over base has no effect "whatsoever" on charm duration.

Originally Posted by http://thedruidsgrove.org/eq/forums/showpost.php?p=73624&postcount=27

Lol, I've got 45 cha and CoK usually lasts for awhile and is rarely resisted.

Claims: With 45 CHA (and presumably Glamour of Tunare, -20 MR) Call of Karana (DRU/55) "lasts awhile" and is rarely resisted.

Originally Posted by http://thedruidsgrove.org/eq/forums/showpost.php?p=73625&postcount=28

A Quick Question: I thought maybe it was true, but does charisma have anything to do with charm duration? or just the chance for it to land? or anything like at all? Any information on this would be of great help. I wanna know if it's worth replacing my primary and secondary items with cha cups or just go with my horrible 45 charisma and try to charm and kill.

(yes this question was answered 4 hours and/or 1 posts before it was asked and was still asked.. lol)

Originally Posted by http://thedruidsgrove.org/eq/forums/showpost.php?p=73626&postcount=29

CHA=76

Been that way forever, and it's not unusual to have CoK last ten minutes or more. Ensnare often runs out before my pet breaks.

I doubt charisma has any effect at all.

Claim: Charm "often" or "usually" lasts as long as ensnare (10-11 mins) and/or Ensnare "often" fades after charm.

Originally Posted by http://thedruidsgrove.org/eq/forums/showpost.php?p=73627&postcount=30

CHA = 90

Last night, I had 3 or 4 charms outlast Ensnare. That's not a good thing with a hasted pet dual wielding stun proc weapons.

Claim: It is not uncommon for charm to outlast Ensnare with only 90 CHA, which is exciting!!

...

From the sound of things, druid charm simply can't check CHA the way charm works here. The CHA check here is obviously designed to penalize enchanters who not only normally have 200 CHA but also -20 MR plus the ability to CC most effectively when charm breaks unexpectedly.

That assumed, there is simply no way to buff charm for druids to be in line with these comments without OPing enchanters unless charm is changed to ignore CHA for druids. This was already done for necros to be in line with classic -- can the same please be done for druids given the overwhelming evidence that CHA had little or no effect on druid charm?

[eriamjh]

Bump.

Druid charm is unusable in it's current state because it is checking charisma as if I were an enchanter.

Charm without Tash or Malo will not average more than a few minutes duration on mobs 5-10 levels below me while enchanters have little problem doing this with just Tash because of their naturally obscene charisma.

I am literally wearing every single piece of charisma gear a druid can use in classic yet charm will not last long enough for my pet to die but 1 in 5 charms. This is very wrong and very not classic as per many comments above.

Druids should be in the same boat as Necromancers where charisma has absolutely no effect on duration OR the effect is so negligible that 80+% of that classes player population has tried it and believes it is useless.

Currently charm is too risky to use with less than 150-175 CHA on somewhat challenging mobs and 200+ CHA on challenging mobs. This makes it unusable for druids who simply can not get that much charisma.

Is there any reason this is not being looked into/fixed? Is anything else needed to fix this?

[Torven]

I hate to burden the hard working devs with another issue, but as a Halfling druid this one will have a tremendous negative affect on my gameplay in Kunark. We all know leveling as a non-pet class is a lot slower, so any druid with a clue is going to want to charm for exp in Kunark, which has a lot of animal mobs.

I think it's established that charm is too charisma reliant on P99, especially for druids, but what makes it much, much worse for Halflings is our 50 base charisma and the fact that charisma gear caps out for us at ~+100. Charm only BEGINS to not be worthless above 150 charisma, and Halflings can only achieve 150 charisma replacing every slot they can (152 with tranix crown) with charisma gear. Non-Halflings can achieve 177 (179 w/ crown) as they can wear a +5 chest item we cannot and have 25 more base. (we can wear Halfling only +3 boots, but non-Halflings get a +3 boot item in Kunark)

As the game is now, you'd be crazy to roll a Halfling druid over the other races. The difference charisma makes in charm duration is enormous. I keep hearing that 200 is a magic number for charms, and non-Halflings can get there without shaman/enchanter buffs (using alchemy pots) but we cannot. Not even with Kunark items. Once disease resist pots get fixed, druids will be screwed further. (I assume the 5 plat ones aren't supposed to give +25)

If you guys don't want to remove charisma checks, then something like adding +50 or +100 to the equation for druids would at least make the spell usable after switching to our 14 piece charisma set without having to use pots or getting a charisma buff.

[Thetan]

If this is changed, I hope it's applies for necros too. I haven't had much experience charming with a necro, but I do know necro centric gear is usually negative charisma.

Having played mostly a enchanter, I am a charm-a-holic and would love some viability to charm as a necro too.

[Ozst]

I played a druid from 2000 until I quit when GoD came out. From my experience and tests, CHA did absolutely nothing for a druid. One of my friends played an enchanter, together we did alot of charm duo'ing and throughout these times I had tested CHA gear along with the enchanter CHA buff on. With 200+ CHA on a druid my charm didnt hold any longer on average than when I had my negative CHA test gear leaving me at 1 CHA. From what my experience has told me, enchanter is the only class that is dependant on CHA for charming. I dont play a druid anymore nowadays, but it would be nice to see this problem fixed.

[Torven]

Well I just tried to charm in Kedge on test after the charisma potion nerf/fix. Charm is basically unusable now that I'm stuck at 150. The difference in charm duration from 150 to 175 to 200 charisma is just too enormous.

So I'm here to basically beg for a fix. (pretty please) Or if you guys don't want to change how charm works, I'd seriously rather be a wood elf with all of my points put into charisma. A Halfling druid is a gimped druid. I'm going to have to abandon this character if charm remains this way [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] With the dot fix/nerf and unusable charm, it's just not worth playing the class unless you're a non-Halfling with all points dumped into charisma.

[quido]

I notice a difference from 240 to 255 cha on my enchanter. Maybe I'm imagining it.

[Chrushev]

Would be nice to hear a word from one of the dev on this. Just something as simple as if its being looked into or if its staying as it is?

I am still a low level (14 atm) just got my charm. tried using it 20 or so times in Karanas, majority of the time mobs break within 10 seconds or so, even the ones Green to me. The longest ive had charm last is about 30 seconds so far, and that happened once on a green mob.

I dont remember it being like this on Live at all. I remembe charming light blue con things for minutes at a time without a problem almost 100% of the time with an occasional early break. So at this point charm is really unusable.

So as a druid leveling its not very close to classic experience since the 2 main ways to level as a druid as not the same as classic (kiting/charming):

- Kiting: Mob speeds are different from classic, so it makes it harder
- Charming: Broken, basically unusable.

[Striiker]

Originally Posted by Chrushev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would be nice to hear a word from one of the dev on this. Just something as simple as if its being looked into or if its staying as it is?

I am still a low level (14 atm) just got my charm. tried using it 20 or so times in Karanas, majority of the time mobs break within 10 seconds or so, even the ones Green to me. The longest ive had charm last is about 30 seconds so far, and that happened once on a green mob.

I dont remember it being like this on Live at all. I remembe charming light blue con things for minutes at a time without a problem almost 100% of the time with an occasional early break. So at this point charm is really unusable.

So as a druid leveling its not very close to classic experience since the 2 main ways to level as a druid as not the same as classic (kiting/charming):

- Kiting: Mob speeds are different from classic, so it makes it harder
- Charming: Broken, basically unusable.

It seems that there is an issue in general on this server with respect to low level charm. I can't speak for druids however I do know that low level charm on this server is very far from how it was on live for enchanters. Your experiences closely matched mine on this server. Charm lasts very briefly, usually failing within the first tick or two of resist checking. (6 - 12 seconds).

[Leokaiser]

Would be good to know if this is going to be looked at or if the evidence gathered so far is insufficent; it's certainly not conclusive, but the consensus amongst druids back in the day suggests charisma is significantly less important than it is here.