Raid Changes

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To me, it's not about having a shot or causing anyone a pain in the ass. For me, it's about classic. I have no problem with TMO, because TMO isn't even a real entity. There are 40 different types of personalities in TMO and 20 different cliques of pals. It's an amalgamation of everyone that wants to be involved in the end-game, because the only way to be involved is to join TMO. That is terribly un-classic. The conditions of classic were such that it wasn't possible for one guild to dominate content, so there was no reason to form mega-guilds.

Whether or not shortening windows makes things easier for other guilds (and I don't agree that it would), it's still not classic, and it promotes poop-socking again. I just don't see what's wrong with classic. If the server goal is classic, and classic endgame is attainable with some minor fixes for dispute resolution, why push for anything else?

No variance also promotes poopsocking (the classic approach) it also was said, by Rogean himself, that it was never getting removed. That's why people push for other things, because they are obtainable (also are a move towards your goal).

I see taking 96hr windows down to 18hr windows a step towards classic, who is to say later that the 18 can't go to 6 or to 1 or 0.

Let's test the waters, not jump back and forth between the extremes and complain.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now insert bi-weekly repops to keep all of the mobs around 24hrs of each other before the next repop.

The bi-weekly repop idea is a good one. It would be a classic emulation of patch days. I just don't see why it has to be attached at the hip with a shortened, rather than eliminated, variance.

No variance and bi-weekly repop is classic; that's what I'm in favor of.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The bi-weekly repop idea is a good one. It would be a classic emulation of patch days. I just don't see why it has to be attached at the hip with a shortened, rather than eliminated, variance.

No variance and bi-weekly repop is classic; that's what I'm in favor of.

There are people who want variance (shortened from what it is)
There are people who want no variance
There is one person who wants variance the way it is (Rogean)

Unfortunately, the one person who likes variance the way it is, doesn't want it removed completely.

I'm more in favor of no variance than any, but you work with what you're given.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No variance also promotes poopsocking (the classic approach) it also was said, by Rogean himself, that it was never getting removed. That's why people push for other things, because they are obtainable (also are a move towards your goal).

I see taking 96hr windows down to 18hr windows a step towards classic, who is to say later that the 18 can't go to 6 or to 1 or 0.

Let's test the waters, not jump back and forth between the extremes and complain.

Done correctly, no variance wouldn't promote poopsocking -- at least not in the P99 sense. No variance with FTE would result in guilds showing up about 20 minutes before a mob was due to pop. I don't consider that socking -- that's just prep time.

I get the idea of incremental decreases in the variance time, but I just don't see the point of half-assing our way back toward classic. But if Rogean really won't ever return to classic endgame, I guess other alternatives need to be considered.

[Nlaar]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are plenty of capable guilds who would start showing up if mobs were on 18hour windows and had bi-weekly scheduled repops.

Hell TMO would probably start shaving members if things changed, they wouldn't need the large force anymore in that scenario.

I have said the same thing.

Nilbog want to see smaller raid guilds of yesteryear? The answer is in this thread and indeed within this quote.

[Writ3r]

What is also lacking about the "poopsock" issue thus far in this thread is that it comes down to the variable of actually getting the mob or making it easier for another guild to get the mob by doing it. The only real zone that aids a "race" and is anti poopsock is fear because it all repops when CT does (assuming you don't allow the training aspect and force clears, considering back when it was considered griefing and was monitored people triggering DT cycles on purpose to be punished). With encounters like plane of hate and dungeon mobs like Trak all having mobs that you can clear ahead of time. It will become a thinking point on whether or not it is worth poopsocking yourselves when you can still lose the target to the current FTE > all rule by clearing the way for another guild or 2 or 5 to come "compete". As it has been stated if you go to the classic route and more people know the times, yes initially there may be poopsocking but in the end stuff will get sorted out due to people actually being near each other forcing interactions between guilds.

This will then lead to what others have said in regards to the raid scene getting cleared up by allowing for more people to have a say within what ideas go into it since they will now be involved.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Writ3r [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What is also lacking about the "poopsock" issue thus far in this thread is that it comes down to the variable of actually getting the mob or making it easier for another guild to get the mob by doing it. The only real zone that aids a "race" and is anti poopsock is fear because it all repops when CT does (assuming you don't allow the training aspect and force clears, considering back when it was considered griefing and was monitored people triggering DT cycles on purpose to be punished). With encounters like plane of hate and dungeon mobs like Trak all having mobs that you can clear ahead of time. It will become a thinking point on whether or not it is worth poopsocking yourselves when you can still lose the target to the current FTE > all rule by clearing the way for another guild or 2 or 5 to come "compete". As it has been stated if you go to the classic route and more people know the times, yes initially there may be poopsocking but in the end stuff will get sorted out due to people actually being near each other forcing interactions between guilds.

This will then lead to what others have said in regards to the raid scene getting cleared up by allowing for more people to have a say within what ideas go into it since they will now be involved.

I don't see every guild that would start to get involved all going for the same targets. Some guilds can't even hope to take down some of them, but they can shoot for the other targets.

TMO can take down 1-3 targets depending on what they are, but they can't take them all down at the same time and even then, it's not going to be worth the large guild size.

TMO doesn't need to talk with other guilds because they hold all the chips, get enough smaller guilds in the mix with bda and then you have lots of small shareholders who are equal to or greater than the large entity.

[Writ3r]

That would be the point of no variance, get more guilds feeling as if they can compete and embedded within the raid scene. Then this allegation of poopsock would be null and void as time went on and other guilds either grew or just got better at encounters by getting the mobs the bigger guilds took as less priority initially. It would allow them to experience the end game get some of that gear then move on to the other mobs out of curiosity and hope. I never said anyone "had" to talk to anyone, but it would force people to talk (in the event of poopsocking) about the way things went considering you could still lose the mob by clearing the path for more guilds to have a shot at snagging FTE.

Either way, with more guilds within the raid scene and snagging mobs that still culminates in them being within the overall scene. So even if it was always FC, Asgard, FV and such on certain mobs they would work together. Then on other mobs maybe Taken and Div would see eachother a lot where at the higher end like VS/Trak initially it would be TMO/BDA. At some point all of those guilds would cross paths on particular mobs to allow for conversations to take place, whether or not they are "needed" can be debated... but it would still open lines of communication far more than they are now especially for it to be done IN game or voice chat (like the ragefire meetings) rather than on forums where attitudes tend not to be as realistic.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Writ3r [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That would be the point of no variance, get more guilds feeling as if they can compete and embedded within the raid scene. Then this allegation of poopsock would be null and void as time went on and other guilds either grew or just got better at encounters by getting the mobs the bigger guilds took as less priority initially. It would allow them to experience the end game get some of that gear then move on to the other mobs out of curiosity and hope. I never said anyone "had" to talk to anyone, but it would force people to talk (in the event of poopsocking) about the way things went considering you could still lose the mob by clearing the path for more guilds to have a shot at snagging FTE.

Either way, with more guilds within the raid scene and snagging mobs that still culminates in them being within the overall scene. So even if it was always FC, Asgard, FV and such on certain mobs they would work together. Then on other mobs maybe Taken and Div would see eachother a lot where at the higher end like VS/Trak initially it would be TMO/BDA. At some point all of those guilds would cross paths on particular mobs to allow for conversations to take place, whether or not they are "needed" can be debated... but it would still open lines of communication far more than they are now especially for it to be done IN game or voice chat (like the ragefire meetings) rather than on forums where attitudes tend not to be as realistic.

The closest thing that is possible to no variance is drastically shortened windows and bi-weekly repops. Which is still within Rogean's "Ain't no way variance is bein killt"

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The closest thing that is possible to no variance is drastically shortened windows and bi-weekly repops. Which is still within Rogean's "Ain't no way variance is bein killt"

96 hour variance and bi weekly repops would do the same thing for smaller guilds as shortening the variance. Except small guilds wouldn't spend time tracking mobs that TMO will beat them too 10 times outta 10.