Project 1999

Go Back   Project 1999 > Blue Community > Blue Server Chat

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-28-2011, 01:49 PM
Splorf22 Splorf22 is offline
Planar Protector


Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,237
Default charm: some actual evidence rather than QQ

http://wiki.project1999.org/index.ph...nchanter_Guide and
http://wiki.project1999.org/index.ph...er_Spell_Guide

These were stolen from a Tripod page. It looks like Xornn started in late kunark (he had breeze), hit 50 around Velious, and took a break until Luclin at 56.

Some quotes:

Under charm soloing he says 'honestly I usually get 2 fights in easy using attack slow as the edge'.

'That's all there is to it, really. Charm sometimes holds for 5 minutes. Other times it holds for 5 seconds.' [note: that was about the L12 spell even!]

'Charm soloing is very dangerous now, and if you do choose to fight this way, it's important to consider this factor--if the average charm is 2.5 minutes (reasonable with my experience), can your pet finish the fight with your pull in that time? At one point in charm soloing, about 40 to 50, mobs you charmed could kill two other mobs before charm broke. You will find with the colossal increases in total hit points of the mobs, even the heavy hitting charmed pets have trouble finishing a fight in under three minutes. Dealing with a charm break is practically expected at this point, unless you are able to locate a set of low hit point mobs that will carve each other up quickly. I no longer recommend using slow on the enemy mob, as you will rarely hold a pet that can survive two fights in a row, and losing your pet can often mean zoning because you don't have the mana to nuke finish a mob. Successful charm soloing usually involves a pair of mobs spawning together, rooting one, charming the other and letting them battle it out, doing your best to make sure your pet barely wins, allowing you to break charm and have a fleeing mob left to finish off with nukes. You may even consider hasting your pet, to make for a reliable kill time. If you choose this route, then I suggest slowing the enemy, and going for a two mob kill before charm breaks. A strong haste is often enough to pull this off, but you can go from full health with Rune V up to very dead in seconds in this situation.'

So, here we have:

1) He could kill 2 L50 mobs reasonably frequently with charm if he hasted the pet. A L48-50 Sarnak Myrmidon has ~10K hp. I remember parsing it once, and it did about 100 dps with DW and haste, so probably 50 base dps and 75 with haste. 2 of them would be 20K hps @ 75 dps or 250 seconds plus 10-20 seconds to find mob #2. This would require a 4.5 minute charm. Without haste, it would require 400 seconds or 6.5 minutes.

2) He could kill 2 L40-45 mobs reasonably frequently with charm without haste at L50. A L44 Lava Duct Crawler has ~4.5K hp and does maybe 40dps without haste. That gives us 225 seconds, or just under 4 minutes of fighting time.

3) He claims the 'average charm' is 2.5 minutes. I assume this is counting all the breaks. I don't trust this as much as the calculations since we humans are very bad at averaging this kind of stuff in our heads.

So what I get from the guide is that at 50+, on mobs 5-10 levels below the enchanter, with tash but without malo, charm should last 4-5 minutes fairly frequently, break early some of the time (maybe 20-25% of the time), and generally break before 5-7 minutes.

If you believe in Xornn's memory over raw calculations, you get a 3-4 minute charm fairly frequently, with some early breaks, and the occasional 5-6 minute charm, which works out to an average of 2.5 minutes.

This is somewhat less duration than charm before patch, but clearly more than we are getting now. Kind of amazingly, I actually agree with Verant's balancing there. Keep in mind that the risk of charm soloing with a hasted L49 pet is really, really high. As he says, 1 bash = dead enchanter.

P.S.

With all that said, I had a great time in Sebilis last night with TMO (their reputation on this board seems totally undeserved) doing stuns and slows. So I am still enjoying my enchanter, even without my froggy pets. And if you guys can find better evidence that the current charm is classic, I'm not going to ragequit.
Last edited by Splorf22; 04-28-2011 at 01:56 PM.. Reason: fixed typos
  #2  
Old 04-28-2011, 02:38 PM
Hmotzart Hmotzart is offline
Aviak

Hmotzart's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Norrath
Posts: 86
Default

>CLAPS<

http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...ad.php?t=35018

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  #3  
Old 04-28-2011, 02:40 PM
Kassel Kassel is offline
Fire Giant

Kassel's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 682
Default

Charm requires malo, make more friends imo =D
__________________
<< Nester the Molester - 60 Rogue >>

<< Hassel the Hoff - Druid of the 55th Grind >>
<< Kassel the Koff - Monk of the 52st Train >>
  #4  
Old 04-28-2011, 11:57 PM
Splorf22 Splorf22 is offline
Planar Protector


Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,237
Default

I find it hilarious that the rage thread has 50 posts and the evidence thread has 3. Anyway, I would like a comment from the devs on this, even if its just 'we're not convinced, live with new charm'.

P.S.

Gave Chardok a try with a Shaman for malo Kassel. It's definitely better, but I still managed to get 3 <30 second charms in a row (after keeping the pet charmed for an hour) at a bad time and had to ditch. I think I ended up charming mainly because with shaman slow I didn't have anything else to cast [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
  #5  
Old 04-29-2011, 10:56 AM
ziahh ziahh is offline
Aviak


Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 75
Default

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/90145-post124.html

Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 6
-1 Internets
charm itsself is NOT broken. Charm is the victim of a changing environment and thusly needs to be modified to keep pace with that environment. I have been using charm for many years in much the same way I use it now. Before any expansions were released, enchanters were soloing the ghoul lord and fire giants area with charmed pets. When kunark was released, we kept pets in groups in Sebilis that doubled the entire groups experience over a 4 or 5 hour experience grind. During Velious, we could charm giants in Kael that easily netted twice the exp normally recieved in an experience group. Velious is where the environments started to change and become much more favorable to charming. Once equipment and player stats started reaching the proportions they did in velious, the risk of charm became trivial. The only problem with Velious and Luclin was that there were not many areas where charm soloing was much more effecient then grouping. So most enchanters ignored the ability.

Now we have Planes of Power. There are quite a few things in this expansion that make charming too good to ignore.

- Zones typically have wide open spaces where you can outrun mobs
- Mobs are spaced farther apart making solo pulling trivial.
- Mobs dont summon
- Mobs have generally low hit points and defense.(This would seem to be the charm equalizer. But doesnt work)
- Mobs have extremely high ATK and max hits.

Because of these factors, the risk vs. reward is out of whack. When an enchanter can get an aa in 17mins by 2boxing a cleric outside of the group vs grouping and getting an aa every 1-2 hours, there is a problem with risk vs reward.(yes its possible. I have done it at a sustained rate).

Back before kunark, we would go solo fire giants for the thrill. IT was damn scary because a charm break at the wrong time meant about an 80% chance of death. With POP, a charm break at the wrong time means you cast the following spells: wom, run til spell gems refresh, mez your pet, retarget the prey, cast root. If it knocks your rune off, pop eldritch rune and root. ZERO risk. none, nada. You have to be a complete and utter idiot to die to a situation like that.

But bringing back the idea of summnoing mobs makes my skin crawl. It was a cheesy tactic. It would make charm mostly useless and not worth the time because it will only take 1 charm break to kill an enchanter. Granted, you may escape if charm breaks when no prey is in camp, but if there is prey in camp, you are dead. One wom resist on either your prey or the pet and your dead. Even if you do manage to get wom off, by the time you do, your hp will be so low, the prey will bloodlust onto you and you will be toast before you can do anything about it. If mobs were to summon again, to make charm useful, we would have to be compenstated with an instant low resist root or something.

So the real problem is not charm. We have been using charm exactly how it was designed since inception. The real problem is the environment.

Of the points listed above:

- Wide open spaces: Changing zone designs is out the the question
- mob spacing: Might be possible but would have unforseen consequences
- Summoning: Think I have covered this one
- Low hit points and defense: cant really do anything here. It would unbalance every other class.
- Extreme ATK: ding ding ding! We have a winner.


Typically enchanters haste their pets. Given a dual wielding pet with haste and a 2boxed druid for heal/snare, charming is the only way to experience!(Hello all you tactics people! And you know who you are :P). So Verants first idea with the 1% slow was a pretty good one but didnt go far enough. These mobs even without haste and dual wield, can tear through their brethren pretty easy. Especially with a botted druid or cleric to heal it. Dire Charm was limited in level for a reason. If you could of dire charmed an Illis and dual wielded and hasted it, a single enchanter could of cleared jugs in Sebilis and given the protector a run for his money. So Verant level limited Dire Charm to 47. The reason they did that was because mobs of that level and lower didnt have enough ATK to do amazing feats.

The reason I use Dire Charm as an example is simple. The risk vs reward of a high level pet that was perma charmed was deemed out of whack by Verant. Basically, given the environmental variables mentioned above, you have the same situation. Mobs that are permacharmed with very little risk. Even thoguh they do break, a broken pet in wide open pop zones is pretty trivial to recharm.

Given this logic, the reasonable thing to do would be to add an effect to charm that lowered a mobs melee level to a much lower level(I am thinking 57). Kind of like those ae's in the spell database that lower a characters spell casting level. This would greatly reduce their attack and defense. It would still allow us to dual wield and haste where it was allowed, but their average hit would be for much less. When charm broke, because the effect was part of the charm it would wear off and the mob would go back to its normal level. This doesnt increase the risk of charm but it lowers its overall effectiveness which is really the problem anyway. This would still allow enchanters that like to solo, to be able to solo. But you wont be able to earn AA at astronomical rates. I still think it should be faster then a group but only slighly so. MAybe 50mins or so per aa. It also addresses melee issues that an enchanter makes them somewhat worthless in groups.

Of the points listed above:

- Wide open spaces: Changing zone designs is out the the question
- mob spacing: Might be possible but would have unforseen consequences
- Summoning: Think I have covered this one
- Low hit points and defense: cant really do anything here. It would unbalance every other class.
- Extreme ATK: ding ding ding! We have a winner.


Typically enchanters haste their pets. Given a dual wielding pet with haste and a 2boxed druid for heal/snare, charming is the only way to experience!(Hello all you tactics people! And you know who you are :P). So Verants first idea with the 1% slow was a pretty good one but didnt go far enough. These mobs even without haste and dual wield, can tear through their brethren pretty easy. Especially with a botted druid or cleric to heal it. Dire Charm was limited in level for a reason. If you could of dire charmed an Illis and dual wielded and hasted it, a single enchanter could of cleared jugs in Sebilis and given the protector a run for his money. So Verant level limited Dire Charm to 47. The reason they did that was because mobs of that level and lower didnt have enough ATK to do amazing feats.

The reason I use Dire Charm as an example is simple. The risk vs reward of a high level pet that was perma charmed was deemed out of whack by Verant. Basically, given the environmental variables mentioned above, you have the same situation. Mobs that are permacharmed with very little risk. Even thoguh they do break, a broken pet in wide open pop zones is pretty trivial to recharm.

Given this logic, the reasonable thing to do would be to add an effect to charm that lowered a mobs melee level to a much lower level(I am thinking 57). Kind of like those ae's in the spell database that lower a characters spell casting level. This would greatly reduce their attack and defense. It would still allow us to dual wield and haste where it was allowed, but their average hit would be for much less. When charm broke, because the effect was part of the charm it would wear off and the mob would go back to its normal level. This doesnt increase the risk of charm but it lowers its overall effectiveness which is really the problem anyway. This would still allow enchanters that like to solo, to be able to solo. But you wont be able to earn AA at astronomical rates. I still think it should be faster then a group but only slighly so. MAybe 50mins or so per aa. It also addresses melee issues that an enchanter makes them somewhat worthless in groups.


some quote with link :

SPell allure

http://replay.web.archive.org/200207...?Id=142&Page=1

Quote:
Unbelievable - Brainslayer (1/28/2001)

Due to having multiple enchanters in our groups, I was able to play around with this spell on a recent fire giant raid in solusek b. I never relized how powerful it was before until I casted it on Warlord Skarlon. He was charmed for atleast 5 min. It was the funniest thing when when a fire giant warrior began to summon him, the entire dungeon nearly died laughing, but so did I when he broke the spell.


Quote:
WOW - Cassie (1/28/2001)

I cast this on a Dark Ritualist in the MM tower the other day for grins, and it was lasting upwards of 5+ minutes. To give you an idea of how long this lasts, two of my buds had time to duel, the loser got rezzed, and then medded to full all w hile the pet remained charmed. This wasn't a one-time shot either. I've noticed this routinely lasting for 4 to 5 minutes before breaking (though I've sometimes had it break after 20 seconds LOL) Not only that, in the new patch as of today we will get a message when Charm is going to break. WOOHOO!!!!! No more sudden surprises when that Hill Giant or Seafury is about to turn on you The run of chanter twinks with each patch continues.


seafury 38-42 and dark ritualist 33

Quote:
XICOTL, By Ordeith (1/28/2001)

Xicotl in MM is a wonderful target for this spell, hits for 100 max, casts spells, tons of HP...*grins* I charmed him and he was soloing half of the garden area around the damph, spell held for around 10 mins also, with 200 cha of course.

Now,

Remember 1 thing : First charming at low lv is more dangerous and thus charm breaking will occure more often due to the fact the a blue mob will be within the range of only 6 level below you.

At higher lv charm is holding more steady due to the fact that a blue mob range from 1- 12 lv below you. a good exemple of that is sebilis.A lv 55 enchanter charming a dar knight wich is lv 44-49 make the duration of the spell more realible. That is why it is often goes up to the full duration.
http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.html?id=5013

When i tested charm in beta i was soloing in sebilis with a lv 50 enchanter and i couldnt solo at all because charm was breaking too often. Yes i could kill a few mob but the risk was too great to make solo viable.

It eventually became more realible around lv 52 and higher.
Last edited by ziahh; 04-29-2011 at 01:52 PM..
  #6  
Old 04-29-2011, 11:03 AM
Nedala Nedala is offline
Fire Giant

Nedala's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 955
Default

Enchs were soloing FGs in classic and people on p99 claim it was OP. Looks like it was actually even more OP on live, im pretty sure most of the enchs just had no idea to max cha, use tash and stack with malo and thats why people remember charm being so bad on live. But actually it was pretty good if you look at reports from people who were not absolutely clueless.
  #7  
Old 04-29-2011, 12:27 PM
baalzy baalzy is offline
Planar Protector

baalzy's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,860
Default

That's what I've been saying. The only thing that happened on live between classic and PoP in regards to Charm was knowledge. You still had random early breaks, but people generally could rely on it to last 5+ minutes.
__________________

Baalzy - 57 Gnocro, Baalz - 36 Ikscro, Adra - 51 Hileric, Fatbag Ofcrap - 25 halfuid

Red99
Baalz Less - Humger, Baalzy - Ikscro

If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let there be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it.
Picture courtesy of azeth
  #8  
Old 04-29-2011, 12:41 PM
Blingx Blingx is offline
Orc


Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 49
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedala [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Enchs were soloing FGs in classic and people on p99 claim it was OP. Looks like it was actually even more OP on live, im pretty sure most of the enchs just had no idea to max cha, use tash and stack with malo and thats why people remember charm being so bad on live. But actually it was pretty good if you look at reports from people who were not absolutely clueless.
Or maybe enchanters weren't actually soloing FGs in classic. Where is the 2001 post that claims this?

Maybe I missed one, but so far all these posts claiming to solo FGs are dealing with eras where AA are obtainable(aka not classic) OR talking about stacking with spells that require more than 1. (aka not solo)
Last edited by Blingx; 04-29-2011 at 12:55 PM.. Reason: its fun
  #9  
Old 04-29-2011, 12:56 PM
guineapig guineapig is offline
Planar Protector

guineapig's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,028
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziahh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Before any expansions were released, enchanters were soloing the ghoul lord and fire giants area with charmed pets. [B]
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by nilbog View Post
Server chat is for civil conversation. Personal attacks/generally being confrontational will not be tolerated.
  #10  
Old 04-29-2011, 01:55 PM
ziahh ziahh is offline
Aviak


Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 75
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blingx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Or maybe enchanters weren't actually soloing FGs in classic. Where is the 2001 post that claims this?

Maybe I missed one, but so far all these posts claiming to solo FGs are dealing with eras where AA are obtainable(aka not classic) OR talking about stacking with spells that require more than 1. (aka not solo)
u havent read the entire post i made. there are 3 2001 post about low lv ench charming , and then read the comment i made below.
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:19 PM.


Everquest is a registered trademark of Daybreak Game Company LLC.
Project 1999 is not associated or affiliated in any way with Daybreak Game Company LLC.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.