Spells: Cinda's Charismatic Carillon

[GradnerLives]

Copied over from Velious Beta Spells section as I realized I may have miscategorized this...

Oft overlooked, this song is a veritable necessity in velious.

That being said, it doesn't seem to be working as most sources suggest, seemingly changed as a result of this thread where giegue suggests that maybe it's working too well.

Giegue reported that it was being boosted by instruments which, according to everything I've been able to scrape together, is the correct way for this song to function, yet it seems like the decision was made to greatly reduce the effectiveness of this song by removing the ability to boost it with wind instruments.

In the same thread Giegue makes an excellent point:

usually when an instrument doesn't modify a song, then that instrument is required to sing it (like with the bard invis/levi/group dispel songs):

Typically songs without instrument modifiers require the instrument, and yet this one doesn't.

Furthermore, many wayback'd sites appear to list it as benefitting from a wind instrument.

From EQLizer:

11- Cinda's Charismatic Carillon - Adds the targeted NPCs faction to you.
Uses a wind instrument, can be sung for lesser effect.

From EQSongs:

The size of each faction rank seems to be different so the song may raise you anywhere from 0 to 2 ranks. Using a wind instrument seems to enhance the effect slightly. Using a magic flute will add more faction then a store bought flute.

Some of these go out of our era a bit but there are some supporting comments on the Caster's Realm thread on this song:

pointless without a decent instrument

just recently, I was selling something to a vendor for 5.5pp, and decided to see if the song would make a difference. I equipped my wind instrument, played the song, and the sell price went up to 6.4pp... so, yeah, this song does have a very good effect.
Aluren
22 bard on Zeb

I understand the implications of a bard being able to stack 1000-1500 faction points, but there appears to be nothing in the history of EQ's resources that says anything to the contrary.

The song's effect has only ever been listed as 120(lvl11)-610(lvl60) and there isn't a single website that says wind instruments have no effect on this value. Many pages reference different jumps, with some suggesting deep scowling to dubious is possible, others saying that indifferent will only jump to amiable, some saying that apprehensive will jump to amiable, and I suspect that this simply stems from people using different instruments at different levels when making their assessment (if using an instrument at all).

Similarly, I've checked all of the patch log sources and haven't been able to find any mention of the song anywhere. While this could simply be a result of a single song change being too minor to list on its own, there doesn't appear to be any proof of this song having instrument mods added at a later date and a decent amount of information indicating it was affected by wind instruments.


I would personally gain from this change, so feel free to tear it apart, but I just can't find a single source that says instrument mods don't work and I can't find a single source that says the song does less than the 120-610 faction value range at base level. I have found a number of sources that say both of those things are true.

It seems we have an absence of evidence for the way the song currently works on blue and red. That much we can say for sure. There isn't one source that corroborates the no wind mod portion of the song.

It also seems as though we came to the current functionality based on a feeling that it was too powerful, despite a pretty surmountable stack of evidence saying it was right on target for classic immersion.

Thoughts?

[BardPop]

Carrilon definitely should be getting modified by wind instruments at this point in the servers timeline.

[Roufas]

I remember in live having different /con results when wearing a flute and when not wearing one.

Used it a lot in velious to turn in quested armor/stuff, I remember it to the point my guild was still working hardcore to faction up while I could just sing it with amiably faction to go all the way up to ally.

It is that powerful, or at least it should be.

Considering it was never too important in kunark, it is very likely people just didn't care about it's amazing boosts.

[GradnerLives]

Originally Posted by Roufas [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Considering it was never too important in kunark, it is very likely people just didn't care about it's amazing boosts.

Definitely my suspicion as well. People would maybe have used it to bank in OT/Cabilis or do hammers but that's about it.

Hell, I didn't even buy it on here until Velious day 2 as I simply never had a need.

[Roufas]

Originally Posted by GradnerLives [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Definitely my suspicion as well. People would maybe have used it to bank in OT/Cabilis or do hammers but that's about it.

Hell, I didn't even buy it on here until Velious day 2 as I simply never had a need.

I actually had this song for a couple years in p99 but always equipped my flute to use it, expecting it would work as in live and boost it up, I never tried it with no flute before because it made no sense to sing the lesser version of it.

What I realized just now due to pure curiosity is that in this server not using the instrument gave me the same /con message, to my surprise.

Then I found this thread.

If this song could not be boosted by an instrument it would be singing based, and EVEN THEN it would be able to be affected by epic, like pretty much every singing song which is not a haste/slow/snare can, because it has the numbers for it.

Every song that is not merely an utility song (aka has no actual numbers for a way to get boosted like invis/levi/item ID/group DA etc etc) gets a boost from instruments, and pretty much every "utility song" let's call them, requires you to equip an instrument, there is no "lesser" or "stronger" version.

It really makes no sense that this one cannot be boosted, it is wind based, it does not require you to equip the instrument ,indicating there can be a stronger (wind instrument) and a lesser (sung) version of it.

I read Giegue's thread, it seems they took something that was working and broke it based on a "hunch", and since nobody else voiced their opinions or had the curiosity to check it (or even cared enough, everybody that played a bard on live knew that patch day was always scary because you never knew when they'd break bards due to the odd coding of the class).

Well I can't be the only bard that played on live to remember this.


Every evidence presented by you is already mountains enough to show that the song is currently broken in p99. But I could just write here about every song and show this simple "bard pattern" to songs I talked about (that would take a good while though).

[ezri]

Currently on P99: This song has no effect at all if you are maximum kill-on-sight faction.

Whether that's a bug, or intended I'm not sure - but if your faction cannot get any worse, then the song point blank wont work making it impossible to cross some zones in velious with the song (with or without instrument).

Personally I'd consider this a bug

[Roufas]

Originally Posted by ezri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Currently on P99: This song has no effect at all if you are maximum kill-on-sight faction.

Whether that's a bug, or intended I'm not sure - but if your faction cannot get any worse, then the song point blank wont work making it impossible to cross some zones in velious with the song (with or without instrument).

Personally I'd consider this a bug

No, that is actually intended.

People must understand the faction is a point thing that goes from -3k points to +3k points.

More or less:
-3000 to -1999 - lowest faction points
-2000 to -751 - Scowls at you ready to attack! (KOS) (approx. 1300 point range)
-750 to -501 - Glares are you threateningly! (KOS) (approx. 250 point range)
-500 to -101 - Glowers at you dubiously. (Not KOS but very close to) (approx. 400 point range)
-100 to -1 - Looks your way apprehensively. (approx. 100 point range)
0 to +99 - Regards you indifferently. (The majority of NPC's have this neutral standing with you) (approx. 100 point range)
+100 to +499 - Judges you amiably. (approx. 400 point range)
+500 to +749 - Kindly considers you. (approx. 250 point range)
+750 to +1099 - Looks upon you warmly. (approx. 450 point range)
+1100 to +2000 - Regards you as an ally. (Highest level of faction attainable) (approx. 1000 point range)
+2001 to +3000 - highest faction points

Taken from another friend's thread.

Basically this song won't move your standing up but it will boost the points, there is a huge chasm between full kos and dubious though.

Even when the song is fixed to let instruments work on them from full kos you would still be kos while playing it, but we never start full kos to any faction so people may have this confusion.

[ezri]

Roufas - Ally has not been implemented yet - the highest faction you can currently get is Warmly; but I get your point!
I can also confirm that with an instrument (Unicorn Horn) at level 53 I was able to jump from indifferently to Kindly (min549 max749) and dubious to Indifferent (min100 max700) - so it would seem that the instrument is not adding a bonus to the base value of the song.

[ezri]

Ignore my comment about ally not being implemented - apparently it was introduced with Winterland [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[GradnerLives]

Bumpin.

Any naysayers? Any proof to the contrary anyone can provide? Seems like there's a general consensus that this should be reverted.

Again, I'm only going by the evidence I've been able to find, but all signs seem to point to the song being instrument boosted.