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  #201  
Old 10-18-2012, 04:44 PM
Alawen Alawen is offline
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Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Let's talk about how hard you have to try in school (at something applicable no less) to get there.

Some people just pay for their decisions down the road. I'm totally fine with that.
Spoken like a true child of privilege. It's obviously the poor children of poor parents who bring poor nutrition, bad schools, lack of health care, and crime-ridden neighborhoods on themselves. Little bastards have it coming.
  #202  
Old 10-18-2012, 04:44 PM
Daldolma Daldolma is offline
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Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
There is also alot of "proof by your description" that claims Mohammad existed and was the final prophet of god and that jesus was not the son.

?Derp
No, there isn't.

Religious texts that discuss things like god and Jesus' (or Mohammad's) relationship to a god are not "proof". They're religious texts. You can believe or not. There is no proof that Jesus was the son of a god any more than there is evidence that Mohammad was the final prophet. That isn't covered by what we're discussing.

There is, however, a plethora of evidence describing Jesus and his life (and death), from a variety of both religious and secular sources in close historical proximity to Jesus. Many of the basic facts and accounts are corroborated by multiple authors.

I'm not as familiar with Mohammad, to be honest. But I'm not discussing religious aspects. I'm discussing whether or not the person in question existed. In the case of Jesus, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that he did -- relatively speaking, of course.
  #203  
Old 10-18-2012, 04:52 PM
mgellan mgellan is offline
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Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
See, this is the problem with atheism. You have some retard on a gaming forum that can't get through a paragraph without a typo trying to explain that Newton, Da Vinci, and a good number of the greatest thinkers in the history of mankind are "bat-shit crazy" with their heads shoved up their ass, all the while explaining that a guy who was a door-to-door evangelist 30 years ago has all the answers.

Yes, Michael Shermer was a door to door, born again evangelist until ~1980. He went from one of the retards knocking on your door to tell you about the glory of Jesus to the founder of Skeptic magazine in 12 years. And he's your first reference? Really?

Yeah, that's totally the guy to set Isaac Newton straight.
I'm not a retard, my mom had me tested. And you're not worth editing for.

He obviously got better, went to school, got a degree in Psychology, and started making perfect sense. Amazing how education destroys religiousity.

Why don't you stop the ad hominum attacks and try attacking his ideas? Oh, you've never bothered to read his book? The Bible is good enough for you? Too bad.

Look at it this way - until very recently (and how safe it is to come out of the closet as an atheist is today is debatable) you could be burned, tortured, jailed, or at very least ostracised and shunned for not being the most fervant religious drone possible. So it makes it pretty hard to guage the religiosity of smart people until the 1800s.

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  #204  
Old 10-18-2012, 04:59 PM
mgellan mgellan is offline
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Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Many of the basic facts and accounts are corroborated by multiple authors.
No they weren't, the existence of a historical Jesus outside scripture (which are obviously biased) can be inferred but it's a huge exaggeration to say many of the basic facts and accounts are colloborated. They're not.

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  #205  
Old 10-18-2012, 04:59 PM
azeth azeth is offline
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FYI you're able to verify your eligiblity for foodstamps easily online, per state.

I invite anyone who considers themselves borderline low-income to check whether they fit the criteria.

spoiler alert: if you don't have kids, you don't qualify.

It's not as available and easy as it sounds. Before I started working after school, my mom had applied for them and was rejected. She nets approximately $20,000. Fortunately I'm able to help her out now, and I'm very thankful for that.
  #206  
Old 10-18-2012, 05:01 PM
mgellan mgellan is offline
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Originally Posted by mgellan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
So it makes it pretty hard to guage the religiosity of smart people until the 1800s.
And oh by the way it doesn't fucking matter anyways, an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy that proves nothing.

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  #207  
Old 10-18-2012, 05:05 PM
Daldolma Daldolma is offline
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Originally Posted by Alawen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Your pejorative aside, I'm at least knowledgeable enough to understand what a primary source is. You might want to read them before quoting them as fact. Citation number six is Robert M. Price, who also doubts the existence of a historical Christ.

One of us is definitely talking out his ass and resorting to Wiki and vague references to geniuses who believe in God to back up his point. This is the most disappointing series of posts I've ever seen from you. If I had to guess, I'd say you are so emotionally attached to the existence of God that you don't want these topics discussed.
Robert M. Price's standard of evidence is as ridiculous as yours. According to him (yes, via wikipedia), "unless someone discovers his diary or his skeleton, we'll never know" if he existed. Does this mean that every historical figure for which we lack an autobiography or a skeleton is potentially the stuff of myth? How patently absurd.

And again, you're evading the underlying point. Relative to other historical figures that we have widely accepted as having existed, there is a plethora of evidence that Jesus existed. For instance, there is far more of a case that Jesus existed than Homer. That is just one example of thousands. Why do you continue to ignore the general consensus of actual scholars on the subject? Is it really me that is biased?

And I have no issue with the topics being discussed, and as a matter of fact, the topic we're discussing is wholly unrelated to the existence of any god. We are discussing whether Jesus was a historical or mythical figure. We're not getting into the validity of his supposed supernatural acts, or his divine nature.

You see a bias that isn't there. I'm not a Christian. Whether Jesus existed or not is wholly immaterial to my life. I'm merely perturbed by how closed-minded and condescending atheists can be as it relates to subjects that are obviously beyond human understanding at the moment. You ask for proof or evidence to justify a belief in a god, then you dismiss mounds of evidence that support the historical existence of Jesus. The two matters are NOT related -- but because of your beliefs re: a god, you can't even budge on whether or not Jesus existed.

There is no way to prove any god exists. There is no way to prove no god exists. The notion of a creator -- of life, of the universe, of essentially anything -- is, on its face, rational. That creator could be a god or an extraterrestrial. It could be personal and benevolent or a force that is not even sentient by our current understanding of the term. Or there could be no creator, no god, and the beginnings of the universe merely too complex to understand at present. All possible, all rational. Greeting any of those possibilities with hostility is irrational.
  #208  
Old 10-18-2012, 05:18 PM
Daldolma Daldolma is offline
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Originally Posted by mgellan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
He obviously got better, went to school, got a degree in Psychology, and started making perfect sense. Amazing how education destroys religiousity.
No, he didn't get better, and education doesn't "destroy" religiosity. Plenty of people as educated or more educated than Shermer are still religious.

He was an unbearable zealot that tried to force his religion down other peoples' throats, then he grew disillusioned and became an unbearable zealot that tried to force his anti-religion down other peoples' throats. The common theme is that he's an unbearable zealot. He's not some enlightened genius leading the unwashed masses to rationality. He was once just as fervent for religion as he is now fervent against religion.

Also, lulz at a degree in Psychology. A master's degree in experimental psych takes one year to complete. He completed a shitty master's program at a shitty state school.
  #209  
Old 10-18-2012, 05:25 PM
Alawen Alawen is offline
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Congratulations, sir. You have learned the hard lesson of researching backward to the primary sources of your references. You introduced Robert Price into this discussion, not me. If you check your other primary sources, every one of them uses a qualifier. The Wiki entry is misleading at best. Personally, I would call the phrasing disingenuous; it is not representative of the statements made by the experts it references.

I don't recall asking for any such things. You're projecting onto me a generic argument you've apparently had with one or more atheists in the past. I doubted the historicity of Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad. You took issue with that. You've gone on several rants full of ad hominem cuts. Your posts on this topic are rife with insults and both formal and informal logical fallacies.

It's not me that has a big issue here. I actually think religion is very beneficial. I think it minimizes a lot of behavior that would be disadvantageous to me and the people I care about. It also provides tremendous opportunities in social networking. I know the Bible well enough to quote from memory and many people in my personal life would swear to you that I am a devout Christian. I might even be able to orate Pascal's Wager with a straight face.

Nah, I'm not that good of an actor.
  #210  
Old 10-18-2012, 05:29 PM
Nirgon Nirgon is offline
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Originally Posted by Alawen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Spoken like a true child of privilege.
No, I could have definitely fucked up in school. Trust me, I did for a year at college and paid for it through the nose making up the skills in my computer science classes.

Meanwhile, other bumfucks I knew (and partied with) never woke up and smelled the coffee. They have no real skills but with my help nailed down some Mr. Fixit computer jobs after 2 years of not being able to find one. One still boozes all his money away and will sit at about 40k a year until he decides to get serious and do something meaningful. The other? VMware certified and making as much as me -- no college degree, just tech certs.

I don't need to pay for people who either can't get with the program or choose to take the "oh I can never improve my mess of a life, you don't know what it's like!" crowd. There's people who have sleepless hour jobs out there and they should only be pulling their own weight.

Not to mention kids (and even parents sometimes) in the shittiest demographics work their asses off to ensure bullying of kids in school to keep their grades down so they can continue to complain/get hand outs and keep the bar down.
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