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#24
10-06-2011, 07:57 PM
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Ok a bit of googleing uncovered some info that matches with my short testing session on Al'Kabor:
7. DISPELLING Most people are fully aware that both buffs and debuffs stick on you in a top-down order; they find the first empty slot and stuff themselves in it. What people often do not grasp is how dispels work. Note: Absor, EQ Developer, has confirmed that there are multiple types of dispels available. The majority of them operate in the manner below; some mobs have special dispels that will remove random buffs. For our purposes, however, we'll examine the case of the majority, to help people understand the basic operation of dispelling. There are numerous spells that we can use to dispel buffs/debuffs, but the best ones available to each class are as follows: --Recant Magic (ENC) --Annul Magic (CLR, RNG, DRU, SHM, NEC, WIZ, MAG, BST) --Nullify Magic: (PAL/SHD) --Crystallized Pumice: Available to all classes, sold by Mirao Frostpouch in the building NE of the PoK Soulbinder, as well as any place that sells invis potions. It has 5 charges of Nullify Magic with a 3 second casting time. It is clickable from inventory, but you must target yourself. I will call this line of spells "dispels" throughout the rest of our discussion. Let's take my second image from above. Image That Malo annoys me. RC didn't cure it. Grrr! I want to dispel it. If you look at Annul Magic on Lucy, it states this: Annul Magic 1: Cancel Magic(9) 2: Cancel Magic(9) Remember how Detrimental worked above? This is similar. In this case, it tells us that Annul Magic will dispel 2 buff slots, at a strength of 9. Remember, dispels don't care whether something is good or bad; it'll dispel it regardless, even if it's something you like. A quick examination of Lucy shows that Recant Magic can dispel 4 buff slots at a strength of 9, and Nullify Magic 2 buff slots at a strength of 4. Dispels always land, even if they don't seem to work. Each buff gets a check versus the strength of the dispel. If the buff fails the check, it gets stripped. If that buff passes the check, the dispel moves on to the next buff, and so on. In the case of every buff passing the check, no buffs will be stripped. This is, of course, the problem with dispels; they're unreliable, and are intended to be that way. Since some dispels strip multiple buffs, the first X buffs that fail their check get dispelled. Thus, to some people dispels seem random; they'll cast it, and say "Wait, I lost buff slots 2 and 5! What gives?" As you see, buff slots 1, 3, and 4 passed their check to remain on you. We are not sure what the check consists of. Sometimes, spells cast by lower level individuals seem "weaker" against dispel, but that may simply be arbitrary perception. Developers have not confirmed anything that I have seen about the process. Dispels act differently depending on what you are dispelling. For example, if you dispel a mob, you will not dispel something with counters. When they made the change to put disease counters on slow awhile back, part of the rationale was to prevent griefing by rival guilds dispelling it. I believe it works on the same principle in PvP. In simple terms of dispelling yourself, however, you can dispel anything that's on you. Therefore, using the graphic above, if I cast Nullify Magic on myself to get rid of Malo, it'll probably chew through my Storm Guard and Form of Defense III first. Thus, presuming I had some dire need to get rid of Malo, I would click those off, and take my chances with it taking Voice of Clairvoyance and hopefully Malo. Clicking off Voice of Clairvoyance wouldn't really net me anything except that I'd lose Steeloak, too. Thankfully, Malo is largely inconsequential. Application to other detrimental effects, however, can easily be drawn. Also of some interest is that dispels are classified as a Beneficial spell for purposes of spell haste. So this is why Taper Enchantment seemed to do nothing when I used it on my high level toon with high level buffs, but when I broke out my lowbie with a lower level buff, it finally dispelled it after a few trys. And remember in my previous post where I said at one point a dispell skipped one of my buffs and dispelled another buff down my list? Matches with the info above, I guess one of my first buffs "resisted" the dispell and the dispell moved into the other buffs to try to kill them. Very interesting, and it confirms that the number in parenthesis represents the strength of the actual dispel. Very interesting stuff, and its what I suspected. | ||
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#25
10-06-2011, 09:00 PM
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I'm not convinced that the dispel strength thing is really classic. I suspect it was added in that PvP patch they implemented in like 2003 or something. I'm as sure as I can be from memory that dispels would always remove the number of buffs inherent to each dispel spell, and always the first from the right. None of that skipping stuff if the buff resisted the dispel. The source you posted is from long, long after classic.
A few points: - It was a widely known fact that two insta-clickies essentially made you immune to the common dispel from pumice because it would always dispel the first two slots. A third clicky would allow you to keep the first buff slot open as well so that you could dispel stuff from yourself without compromising your buffs. - Various NPC dispel effects such as dragon AoE were certainly not avoidable and would always target the first buff. Anyone who doesn't remember this themselves can just look up any old Naggy/Vox guide. These abilities also have the "Cancel Magic (9)" tag on Zam/Lucy, however. Even the Guide Cancel Magic from GM items has two applications of Cancel Magic (9). - I'm pretty sure any classic PvP veteran will tell you that dispel effects were guaranteed to work and always took the first buff(s) from the right. That's not concrete proof, but hundreds of people aren't magically remembering stuff wrong. Since Al'Kabor is a PoP server, I'm not sure you can use it as evidence for classic mechanics when said evidence contrasts so much with what everyone knows to be true. I'm inclined to believe Taper Enchantment merely reduced the duration of the first buff/debuff (the name even indicates this) but that normal dispels were guaranteed. If anything, maybe the (9) thing means a guaranteed dispel, like if a "buff strength" value can't be more than 9 and thus a dispel spell will always remove one buff/debuff per application of Cancel Magic (9), and will always hit the first from right since that's the order of checks. That would explain the nomenclature. After all, no dispel effect has a "strength" higher than 9. | ||
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Last edited by Bockscar; 10-06-2011 at 09:09 PM..
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#26
10-06-2011, 11:46 PM
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Well , all I can say is dispels are behaving on Al'kabor (Plane of Power era server) basically the same as that info I posted above.
Taper Enchantment was weak as hell and took multiple castings to remove a lowbies buffs, and I had one of the higher level enchanter dispells "skip" one of my buffs in my lineup and take off something farther down the line instead (and I was useing my same set of clicky buffs each time in same order) during my short test. My memory is wanting to say that occasionally a pumice or casted dispel would dispel something out of order back in 1999 too. But im not gonna say that with 100 certainty because memories can play tricks. But if I was a betting man, i'd bet the system described above and the current system on Al'kabor is the 1999 classic dispel system. I.E. stronger dispels will almost always take down your buffs in order, while the weaker dispels will get "resisted" by your buffs more, leading to it taking down a buff much farther down the line, or taking no buffs off at all. | ||
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#29
10-07-2011, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
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Linear Mode
