Game Mechanics: Invulnerability Aggro Dump

[Daldaen]

How DA functions here:

You cast DA, and you drop to the lowest priority on the hatelist (1 point of aggro)
When DA ends, you revert to your previous aggro amount

How DA should function through PoPish:

You cast DA, and drop to the lowest priority on agro.
When DA ends or should you happen to remove it, you lose all agro (HOWEVER, low HP agro does kick in if when DA ends you still have agro... Which is a large reason why people didn't notice the agro drop since they often DA at low HP)

This goes for all invulnerability effects.

Evidence:

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums//showthread.php?t=14622

Quote:
Is it just me, or does Divine Aura not seem to be lowering ya on the mobs hate list anymore ?

I used to be able to DA, and then click off the buff almost instanty & have no aggro ( or at least less ), but since LoY this no longer seems to be working.

Belric
65 Archon
Solusek Ro

http://web.archive.org/web/200304300...threadid=14531

Quote:
... fixed, you will call it the way you want.
It seems that since the patch from yesterday, the DA spells are "working again" as intended, i.e, they dont wipe / lower you on the NPC aggro list anymore, they just temporarily lower your aggro, but as soon the invulnerability wears off, you regain your old aggro.

Another stealth change (why wasnt it mentionned in the patch message?) that affect all the DA classes (bard/necro/cleric/paladin) but that will particularly handicap the clerics.
I guess loosing the habit to click off DA DB as soon it pops as most the clerics used to, will be hard.

Get used to the "You will not evade me" message after DA/DB wears off in the future...

Dev Quote in that thread:

We didn't make any intentional changes to Divine Aura and how it reduces agro. I'll send this over to testing and get it checked out.

Thanks for bringing this up.

- Rich

[Vega]

Hmm, there were actually some patch notes, from somewhere in Velious (I think the same ones which changed the SK epic to be able to use bash with), which also mention changes to DA and aggro. I couldn't find them again with a quick search, but will update if I do.

[Daldaen]

I also searched for a patch note about it, but this is what I found.

[Ele]

This one Vega?

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010627.html

June 2001

Aggro Changes: We've made an adjustment to the way that NPCs choose their targets. It's a rather simple change, one that makes a lot of sense. But we want you to be aware of it so that it won't surprise you too much, and so that you won't think that it is a bug. NPCs are now much more aware of the vulnerability (or, more precisely, the invulnerability) of their targets. NPCs will now be very unlikely to waste their time attacking a target that they can't harm.

This one fixed DA tanking issues/exploits. This has already been implemented on P99.

It does not provide any assistance on the current issue of the aggro status after the invulnerability spell wears off.

[Vega]

Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of. It has already been implemented on p99? Shouldn't it come later?

And sorry to derail OP, guess I have nothing to add to it.

[Daldaen]

I believe they added that one out of era after people killing PoSky using lots of shiny brass idols. But it certainly functions like that.

However on topic, it should dump your aggro to 1 point (it won't make them forget you completely you just become a non-issue if others are attacking it once it ends unless, as stated above, you have low HP).

[Ele]

Originally Posted by Vega [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of. It has already been implemented on p99? Shouldn't it come later?

And sorry to derail OP, guess I have nothing to add to it.

Don't worry about it, nothing has been derailed. I was trying to think of the same patch message last night, but it wasn't coming to me. Your post jogged my memory this morning to find it. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]


That particular change should come later, but I can understand why the devs would implement it before hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c9s7pj4ors

[Ele]

This thread from January 2003 on EQ Clerics has a pretty good discussion on DA mechanics spanning the time line. The last couple of pages get into a deep discussion on how hate lists are built, which may need to be addressed in a separate post. I've linked some of the quotes from it below near the bottom of this post.


November 22, 2000
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1803

I usually only have DB up when I'm in a good group that is worth dieing for, otherwise gate is in it's place.

I have another question about these spells though. Has anyone noticed (at least DA) seems to temporarily drop you from the hate list?
I heal the puller on a big pull and taunt 4 or 5 of the mobs on to me. DA goes up and after a round the mobs go back to whoever is next highest on hate list. Unless those mobs get taunted, as soon as DA wears off or I cancel it, I get rushed by the mobs.
Just wondering if this is normal or I just suck

Same thread

Kaharz, my experience has been that DA will cause the mobs to beat on someone nearby if they have reason to. I have seen mobs try to hit me several times when I am DA'd if there is no one else nearby they are aggro'd on. And yes, once the invulnerability fades, they come back with a vengeance.

Both spells reduce aggro of mobs tremendously. Get some space between you and the mob and it will not come back unless you are the last one alive. I am sure there are execptions to this of course.

Kaharz it is an awesome detaunt if used properly. Number one thing you need to do is get out of melee range while DA is active. I call this 'training the tanks'. If you have an unwanted mob or two after you cast an early heal pop off DA then run right through the melee guys and continue out of range.

Note this will NOT work on most mobs if they are 'frenzied' at you. Most mobs frenzy when you hit 30% health, so if you are waiting until you are down to a bub of health to cast DA/DB you waited too long. You have probably seen this yourself when healing a caster near death and your warrior can't taunt the mob off. As soon as that heal hits the mob turns immediately back to the warrior because you brought the caster up over 30% health.

I use DA/DB routinely to detaunt mobs even if I have plenty of health. Saves a lot of frantic running about by tanks trying to draw mobs off the cleric and most don't realize it is a click-off buff. You don't have to wait 18 seconds to cast a spell, simply click the flashing icon once you have cleared the mobs and you are ready to start healing again. As long as I have 30% health and get out of melee range mobs rarely return to me.

This one does not jive with the later fix to invulnerable NPC AI patch in June 2001. It also does not jive with the position of the OP.

November 28, 2000
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1803

Divine Barrier comes up when we get a big nasty pull and I have to do an early heal. I'll heal tank to full, and go to the other side of the room with 3 or 4 in tow. Divine Barrier, and have a seat. With a little luck, the party will finish the first, and taunt one or two off of me before it drops. Divine barrier heals me a little, and its for situations where I *chose* to go invulnerable. Divine aura, with its fast casting time, is when I can't get the barrier off, or I really just need an "oh hell" escape.

Threads from before the one linked in OP.

January 1, 2003
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ability&page=3

It's important to realize that the reduction in aggro from DA/DB is only temporary... you regain that when the effect is taken off. Usually the tanks will be building up enough aggro to move you down the list, but if that's not happening, you will want to do what you can to reduce your own aggro (move further from mob, etc)

Good points about the low-HP aggro issue...I used DA recently and took a few steps back. I quickly lost aggro from being invulnerable, so thought I could click it off and heal myself...but Nooo, the baddie made a B-line right at me and finished me off! Guess next time if I DA with low HPs I'll get out of aggro range before clicking it off.

January 17, 2003
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...nvulnerability

When DA wears off, you go back to your normal place in the agro line... minus whatever agro you lose over time and others gain. if that puts you near teh top.. your dragon kibble.

DA does not clear aggro, simply gives others time to build up their aggro. Remember before DA was tuned, how mobs would still often go after the DA'ed cleric? The tuning merely made mobs smarter, so they'd realize that attacking an invulnerable person was pointless if there's another person nearby.

Often it will only take a few seconds for the tank to regain a good hold on aggro, so that may make it seem like DA eliminates aggro, but it doesn't. I've had it happen where if I click off DA too soon on raids, that the mob would come right back onto me, even without low health aggro.

Case in point: A monk was coming back with a mob to the raid. I threw a heal on him WAY too early, and I knew it, so I DB'ed immediately after healing him, being at full health still. About 7-10 seconds later, with the mob at the raid, being tanked, I took off DB and got promptly beaten to a pulp.

DA/DB has never cleared aggro. All it does is make it seem that you're out of melee range, which is why the mob will usually turn away and start whacking on something else. Of course, if you're still in melee range and your tanks haven't taken over the top spot on the hate list, the mobs run right back to you when DA/DB wears off.

How DA works ...
It makes you invulnerable

All mobs drop invulverable targets to the bottom of their hate list (they used not to hence the old days of a da sitting cleric being MT :P .

Soon as you are no longer invulnerable you appear in exactly the same spot in the hate list you were in.

Hopefully after 18 seconds the tanks have built up enough tuant that it forgets you... unless you went da under 30% in which case soon as da is off the mob is going to go after you becuase 1. you are on the hate list and 2. you are below 30% (bam you on top of the hate list)

what verant did was simply change the mob ai to ignore you while DA . nothing more . DA was not changed as a spell in any way . this had the effect of sending the mobs right back at the next highest person on the hate list , preferably the tank , and allowed them time to build aggro while you were invulnerable . when DA dropped some 18 seconds later hopefully someone else was high enough on the hate list that they wouldnt come back after you . so while the spell itself has no inherent hate reduction associated with it , it gives others the time to build hate , in effect placing you lower on the hate list . this is why so many people think da is an aggro reduction spell , when in fact it simply gives others time to build hate above your own .

so on the face of it it would seem we are arguing semantics but we are not .

if da worked as a total aggro reduction spell that many people beleive it is then we wouldnt have these threads pop up so often about da not CLEARING aggro . it is important to understand exactly how a spell functions to get the maximum benefit out of it . if the spell worked as you believed it would work in all situations all the time , and as you admit it doesnt . saying sometimes one mob or maybe two will come back at you proves that the spell doesnt work as you think it does .

[Daldaen]

I'm still reading through it, but DB had a damage shield apparently... I read that in some other post too.

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20030826.html

Divine Barrier no longer has a damage shield component and has gained three times the healing effect.

That isn't in currently is it? I haven't noticed any DS on my cleric.

[Ele]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm still reading through it, but DB had a damage shield apparently... I read that in some other post too.

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20030826.html



That isn't in currently is it? I haven't noticed any DS on my cleric.

Whether or not it had it during Classic->Velious would just be a matter of checking the spell files. This Feb. 2000 post on EQ Clerics identifies it as having a damage shield and regen component. As some of the posters mention, even if it does have a DS component, the mob cannot connect so the DS isn't effective for anything but creating stacking issues.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6213

From EQCaster:

Divine Barrier
--------------

Description:

Divine Aura
Damage Shield from 25(L29) to 41(L60)
Regeneration for between 90(L29) to 183(L60) Hit Points (HP) in 3 ticks

--blah blah snip--

A few threads from 2002 and 2003 detailing stacking issues with detrimental spells and beneficial spells (Spirit of the Wood).

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5841

The list of spells I linked to are spells that have stacking issues with DB. It doesnt directly say if DB will overwrite - or if the other spell will present DB from landing. Thats up to the reader to decide.

Generally though - a larger positive effect will overwrite a small positive effect (of the exact same type in the same slot). Example - Symbol of Marzin will overwrite Symbol of Naltron - because they have HP in the same slot and Marzin is larger.

Further, a negetive effect will overwrite a positive effect (again, of the exact same type in the same slot) - which is why

Overfiends Fury
1: Lure(6)
2: Decrease Attack Speed by 5%
3: Decrease HP when cast by 100
4: Decrease Hitpoints by 20 per tick

will block

Divine Barrier
1: Invunerability
2: Increase Damage Shield by 25 (L29) to 36 (L50)
4: Increase Hitpoints by 30 (L29) to 51 (L50) per tick

They both have the effect "Increase/Decrease Hitpoints by xxx per tick" in slot 4.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14233

Yes, there is a DS component, but the problem was the Heal over time part, not the DS. (X: denotes the slot the spell would go in, different types of spells can share the same slot, same type of spells can be in different slots, but the same spells can't be in the same slot.)

So since DB used to have a HoT in 4, which gave lower regen than the HoT in spirit of the woods fourth slot, they didn't stack. Now, they've changed the HoT part on DB to a DD heal, so they are no longer conflicting.


Divine Barrier
1: Divine Aura
2: Damage Shield from 25 (L29) to 36 (L50)
4: Increase Current Hitpoints from 90 (L29) to 153 (L50)


Spirit of the Wood
4: Increase Heal over Time by 250 (L1)
8: Damage Shield by 55 (L1)
9: Increase Armor Class (AC) by 48 (L1)