John VS. Juan - While you play Elf sims....

[loramin]

Right, what you said/are saying is:

Originally Posted by Eliseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"an illegal already breaking the rules will more than likely still break the rules"

Now that first quote as written doesn't make any sense. A) people can't be illegal, and B) you say "an illegal already breaking the rules" as if there were undocumented immigrants that weren't breaking the rules. By definition if you are an "illegal" in the sense that you violated immigration law, then you're a rule breaker. There are no "not already breaking the rules" undocumented immigrants.

But if you interpret it how I think you meant it, then (as iruniedyourday pointed out), what you're saying is that people who break the [immigration] rules are more likely to break other [non-immigration] rules. And you further assert that this is true because:

Originally Posted by Eliseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

just pointing out patterns that exist even in US citizens, and just in general people.

But the thing is, there's a world of difference between a person that sneaks in to a country to work and support their family and someone who robs liquor stores. There's no logical reason to assume that just because John (who just robbed a liquor store) IS more likely to commit crimes, Juan (who overstayed his vacation visa) is also more likely.

But regardless of what either of us assumes or thinks, what I'm trying to tell you is, academics at a university conducted a study to consider this exact question: do undocumented immigrants commit more crimes than documented American citizens? And what they found was that they are NOT.

Sometimes things we assume just aren't true, and it takes empirical evidence to make us realize it.

[loramin]

Also, here's a couple of links if you want to be critical (which I strongly encourage) of what I'm saying and verify the facts for yourself:

Study I'm talking about:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/04/us...says.html?_r=0

A previous study on the same topic:
http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/jus...ts-and-crime-0

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Eliseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No it's not. One is stating that illegal immigrants will commit more crimes than other people. The other is stating that illegal immigrants will more than likely, keep breaking the rules, with no reference to anyone else besides themselves, because they are already breaking the rules..... Comprehension is hard?

Here's what I find hard to comprehend: if you're only referencing undocumented immigrants, how can you say they will commit more anything, since there's no one to compare to? I can't say
"Red Sox fans make more rude comments" unless there's an implicit "than non-Red Sox fans". And you can't say undocumented immigrants are more likely to "keep breaking the rules" unless you have an implicit "than documented immigrants and/or citizens".

[Eliseus]

Well obviously there is exceptions the rules. There always is. That is why I say more likely than not. I don't know any illegal immigrants at all, so I reserve judgement that hopefully they wouldn't, but, people tend to not break patterns, at least very easily, hence why there is addiction (whether you think it is relevant or not to this discussion). For example, a family on welfare tends to have most the children living on welfare, and their children. Or people who commit X crime tend to commit X crime again.

I'm really not advocating that there shouldn't be some kind of system to help illegal immigrants, but (yeah, theirs always the but) it's unfair to create an exception for them, and the potential for harm they could bring to the community (weather it is economic, criminal, anything) based off of just natural human patterns (is that what you would call it?). They should all be deported, and should have to wait in line just like everyone else.

[Eliseus]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's what I find hard to comprehend: if you're only referencing undocumented immigrants, how can you say they will commit more anything, since there's no one to compare to? I can't say
"Red Sox fans make more rude comments" unless there's an implicit "than non-Red Sox fans". And you can't say undocumented immigrants are more likely to "keep breaking the rules" unless you have an implicit "than documented immigrants and/or citizens".

Because there is studies that display patterns in human beings? I don't need to compare it to other people, I can base it just off the fact they already broke the law, why wouldn't they again?

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by Eliseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They should all be deported, and should have to wait in line just like everyone else.

you do, not have my 'votesky' comrade [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

on a side note, legal corporations & banks do WAY MORE HARM than illegals do... were spinning our wheels in this thread! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Eliseus]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you do, not have my 'votesky' comrade [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

on a side note, legal corporations & banks do WAY MORE HARM than illegals do... were spinning our wheels in this thread! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is an issue all in itself, people trying to validate more illegal activity based upon the premises that there is already illegal activity happening, so why not.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Eliseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well obviously there is exceptions the rules. There always is. That is why I say more likely than not. I don't know any illegal immigrants at all, so I reserve judgement that hopefully they wouldn't, but, people tend to not break patterns, at least very easily, hence why there is addiction (whether you think it is relevant or not to this discussion). For example, a family on welfare tends to have most the children living on welfare, and their children. Or people who commit X crime tend to commit X crime again.

So, here's something we can both agree on, a logical extension of what you said: undocumented immigrants are more likely than documented immigrants/citizens to have undocumented children and to violate immigration laws again. What's not logical is saying that because a man is willing to risk his life and travel for months just to get a job, that he's more likely to be a criminal. The evidence shows that's just not true.

Now for the TLDR part.

You said you didn't know any illegal immigrants. Well, as it happens, I know the most famous one in America, Jose Antonio Vargas. Jose went to the same high school as me, and he was the hardest working person I knew: he slept like 3 hours, was involved in tons of extra curricular activities (I knew him through Speech and Debate; his rendition of The Highwayman was incredible), and got straight A's. He was also incredibly kind, and would do anything for a friend. Since high school he's gotten himself a Pulitzer prize, been on The Colbert Report, and "come out" as an undocumented immigrant.

Jose was brought here when he was just a kid; he had no choice in the matter. He didn't even know his status until he turned 16 and tried to get a driver's license. Now, despite having done Pulitzer-award winning journalism, Jose risks being deported to a country he hasn't been in since he was like 7.

I'm telling you all this because undocumented immigrants are people, and we should have empathy for them. When you don't know anyone of certain group, it's hard to have empathy, but hopefully the next time you start to envision the evil job-stealing, law-breaking, "illegal" immigrant that you've never met but Fox News tells you exists, try to think of Jose. And the many other good people who are undocumented but don't fit Fox News stereotypes.

[Eliseus]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So, here's something we can both agree on, a logical extension of what you said: undocumented immigrants are more likely than documented immigrants/citizens to have undocumented children and to violate immigration laws again. What's not logical is saying that because a man is willing to risk his life and travel for months just to get a job, that he's more likely to be a criminal. The evidence shows that's just not true.

Now for the TLDR part.

You said you didn't know any illegal immigrants. Well, as it happens, I know the most famous one in America, Jose Antonio Vargas. Jose went to the same high school as me, and he was the hardest working person I knew: he slept like 3 hours, was involved in tons of extra curricular activities (I knew him through Speech and Debate; his rendition of The Highwayman was incredible), and got straight A's. He was also incredibly kind, and would do anything for a friend. Since high school he's gotten himself a Pulitzer prize, been on The Colbert Report, and "come out" as an undocumented immigrant.

Jose was brought here when he was just a kid; he had no choice in the matter. He didn't even know his status until he turned 16 and tried to get a driver's license. Now, despite having done Pulitzer-award winning journalism, Jose risks being deported to a country he hasn't been in since he was like 7.

I'm telling you all this because undocumented immigrants are people, and we should have empathy for them. When you don't know anyone of certain group, it's hard to have empathy, but hopefully the next time you start to envision the evil job-stealing, law-breaking, "illegal" immigrant that you've never met but Fox News tells you exists, try to think of Jose. And the many other good people who are undocumented but don't fit Fox News stereotypes.

You are obviously one of those people that believes all illegal immigrants are like the 1 that posts to a media outlet like fox news (just assuming, since you pointed out fox news, assuming you read it a lot) that he traveled millions of miles for the sake of his children to blah blah blah. Again (I feel like a broken record here), but there is exceptions to the rules, it still doesn't validate breaking the rules. It's like the random guy who steal from a store a loaf of bread to feed his starving family, what do you do? It's still breaking the rules. This is why there is such a grey area in so many legal issues, because people like you create grey areas in such an easy thing to understand.

[Eliseus]

Also, no one said I DON'T have empathy for them, but I have more empathy for the people doing it the legal way, which you seem to wholeheartedly ignore.