So how about that Zimmerman trial?

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They don't find people innocent in courtrooms.

correct, but the bedrock of american criminal trial is still a presumption of innocence -- which is often restated as "innocent until proven guilty".

it has less to do with your intended meaning and more to do with your actual word choice. zimmerman, even if found not guilty, is not necessarily innocent. that is correct. but it's still humorous to claim that there is no reason to presume him innocent, given the fact that the core principle is referred to as the "presumption of innocence".

[K|mm Barely]

Misto confirmed scared white man.

[JurisDictum]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

correct, but the bedrock of american criminal trial is still a presumption of innocence -- which is often restated as "innocent until proven guilty".

it has less to do with your intended meaning and more to do with your actual word choice. zimmerman, even if found not guilty, is not necessarily innocent. that is correct. but it's still humorous to claim that there is no reason to presume him innocent, given the fact that the core principle is referred to as the "presumption of innocence".

In hindsight I should have said "assume." For all pragmatic purposes..there are people that are most likely guilty that get found "not guilty." Which is all well and good for the law. But when you start talking personal opinion...the burden of proof is much lower to come to an opinion of guilt justifiably.
I personally find it equally likely that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Nothing to convict on, but there it is. Getting your ass kicked isn't evidence you didn't "start it" given the context of him following martin for blocks.

[Misto]

Originally Posted by K|mm Barely [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Misto confirmed scared white man.

As soon as the population shifts to 51% black at the pool.

I'm out.

[K|mm Barely]

Confirmed.

[Vaildez]

Originally Posted by Bodeanicus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Zimmerman was aware of the SYG law, and I guarantee you it was in his mind when he got out of that car packing a gun. You're an idiot if you can't see that. There's no way he would have pursued Martin without the gun. Martin wasn't a female, after all, as Zimmerman soon found out.

LOL! If he was aware of the SYG he would have realized it did not apply to the situation he was in.

[Reapin]

Originally Posted by Misto [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As soon as the population shifts to 51% black at the pool.

I'm out.

Daldolma will be more than happy to sell you the gun to blow your own head off with.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In hindsight I should have said "assume." For all pragmatic purposes..there are people that are most likely guilty that get found "not guilty." Which is all well and good for the law. But when you start talking personal opinion...the burden of proof is much lower to come to an opinion of guilt justifiably.
I personally find it equally likely that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Nothing to convict on, but there it is. Getting your ass kicked isn't evidence you didn't "start it" given the context of him following martin for blocks.

that's fine. i don't agree, but i find even my own opinion more or less meaningless. what matters in this case are the facts, what can be proven objectively and unquestionably. you can't put someone in jail for 20+ years based on what you think. it has to be about what you know, within reason.

i think that zimmerman had a history of this, that he was habitually overzealous and regularly called the police, followed people, and generally pretended to be a cop. i think the variable that night was a scared, defiant teenager that felt threatened. i think that zimmerman found him and initiated his cop nonsense, asking what martin was doing. at that point, i think martin probably initiated physicality and was on top of zimmerman before zimmerman really knew what was going on. zimmerman had over 100 pounds on him -- if this was mutual violence, or a fight initiated by zimmerman, i think he'd have at least been able to do some kind of damage to trayvon before getting his nose busted, his body pinned, and his head banged against the pavement. i think he started yelling for help and when he thought it wasn't coming, he panicked, went to his gun, and shot trayvon -- just once, just to get him off, before he even had time to really evaluate what was happening.

that's what i think is most likely, given available evidence. i don't know that, though. i don't assume that's correct. i think it's very possible zimmerman shoved martin, and martin fought back. but i know that you can't disprove zimmerman's claims, given the evidence. what i believe ultimately doesn't matter. it's only one interpretation, it's not concrete. and to convict, you need concrete. you need to know beyond a reasonable doubt. nobody knows beyond a reasonable doubt except for zimmerman.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Reapin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Daldolma will be more than happy to sell you the gun to blow your own head off with.

suicide is a mortal sin, i would have to consult church leaders before any such sale

[Reapin]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

that's fine. i don't agree, but i find even my own opinion more or less meaningless.

Something we agree on.