Dual Wield Convention Makes No Sense To Me

[Kekephee]

People keep bringing this up to me in groups and I feel like I'm the only person who's doing this, which likely means I'm doing it wrong. But I can't understand why the other way makes sense. So I'm making this thread. I realize other threads have been made about this, and I tried to read them, but I didn't find anywhere where anyone actually explains anything beyond just repeating what's on the wiki. And since the issue here is that the wiki, when I read it ,appears to either contradict itself or not touch on my specific question...

Dual Wield: assuming two weapons have the same delay but different damage, do you put the higher damage (better ratio) in the main hand, or offhand? According to the wiki:

Damage bonus only affects your primary weapon, and as a result, for maximum DPS (damage per second) you will want to put the best ratio weapon in the secondary weapon slot regardless of delay.

What this doesn't explain to me is why, if I have two weapons with the same delay, I don't want the higher damage one in primary. First of all, assuming there even is a damage bonus (I thought that got implemented in Luclin or PoP,) wouldn't you want it in your primary since that's the one that gets the bonus? Second, since your primary is the one that hits the most often (there will be dual wield checks where you don't roll the hit and won't swing your offhand) why wouldn't you want the best ratio weapon to be in that hand?


So, I have a Sionatchie's Partisan, 9 damage 19 delay, and a Sainy's Claw, 6 damage 19 delay. People keep telling me to put the partisan in my offhand. I can't imagine why this would be better. I can do it my way, and swing with my partisan every 1.9 seconds and do that 9 base damage every single time, plus (if it exists) a damage bonus that would only affect my primary. Meanwhile, my low damage offhand is hitting for the 6 base and no bonus every time the delay requirement is met and the roll is successful. Doing it the other way, it seems like my main hand is hitting for less the same number of times, and my offhand is hitting for slightly less (assuming, again, a damage bonus does exist but would not affect offhand) the same amount of times. How is that better?


Is the wiki referring more to a situation in which you have two weapons with different delay, specifically one with a higher damage/delay but a better ratio, which intuitively one would assume they should put in their main hand but the wiki says not to?

[Estu]

It's badly-worded. What it's trying to say is if you can have any two weapons you want, you want to have a low-delay weapon in your main hand (to capitalize on damage bonus) and a good ratio weapon in your offhand. In your hypothetical situation where all you have is two weapons with the same delay but different damage, you of course want the better weapon in your main hand, because you'll be swinging with it more often (primary weapon always swings, secondary weapon only swings upon a successful dual wield check).

I've just added some clarification to the Wiki page.

[SirAlvarex]

I like to think of the damage bonus in this way:

When you swing your weapon, you have a set amount of damage you do. The damage bonus then *adds* to that total. So you want to hit as often as possible to take advantage, because for most 1-handed weapons the damage bonus will be the same.

For your example, you have two weapons of the same speed. Therefore it doesn't matter from a damage bonus persepective which one you use. But as you say, the dual wield checks aren't great for non-Monks, so you want to use your Partisan main hand. Anyone who tells you diferently is just going off "what they're told" and running with it. You have the right idea for your case.

But the damage bonus does exist, and it starts at level 28.

[Kekephee]

Alright, thanks for the clarification guys. I just didn't want to be the one person on the entire server who apparently doesn't "get" dual wield. Maybe all the people who've suggested I change my arrangement have thought the two weapons had different delays, I dunno.

[lecompte]

I don't know if this thread is done, but the mainhand bonus isn't that significant until higher levels AND you probably don't swing your offhand all that often so I would put the partisan inmy mainhand

[falkun]

For your case where you have two weapons with identical delay, I'd put the better ratio (9/19 partisan) in your primary.

The wiki is mostly covering the case where you have two weapons with identical ratio but different delay (12/24 and 15/30). In that case, you'd want to put the faster weapon (12/24) in the primary because the damage bonus is the same for both weapons, but the 24 DLY weapon will apply that bonus more often. While 2H weapons have a scaling damage bonus (so slower weapons receive a higher bonus than faster weapons), 1H bonus is static and only dependent upon character level, so use the faster weapon in the primary.

[koros]

People don't understand math well as a rule.

This should always be determined based upon the sum of the various damage curves of both hands.

Primary hand swings more, but it also gets a damage bonus irrespective of delay. These two forces can work in opposing directions when determining which hand to put your weapons in.

a 30/30 weapon would do so much damage that you'd want it in your primary hand for the extra swings over a 9/19 even tho the 9/19 has a much lower delay and can take better advantage of the bonus.

primary hand gets a bonus of ((your level-25)/3). So to determine relative damage do... (((2 * weapon 1 damage) + bonus)/delay) + ((duel wield skill + level / 500)*((2 * weapon 2 damage)/delay)

What this is calculating is.... (average damage per swing of primary hand / delay) + (average % duel wield fires)(average damage per swing of offhand / delay)

[Ketu Garyx]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People don't understand math well as a rule.

This should always be determined based upon the sum of the various damage curves of both hands.

Primary hand swings more, but it also gets a damage bonus irrespective of delay. These two forces can work in opposing directions when determining which hand to put your weapons in.

a 30/30 weapon would do so much damage that you'd want it in your primary hand for the extra swings over a 9/19 even tho the 9/19 has a much lower delay and can take better advantage of the bonus.

primary hand gets a bonus of ((your level-25)/3). So to determine relative damage do... (((2 * weapon 1 damage) + bonus)/delay) + ((duel wield skill + level / 500)*((2 * weapon 2 damage)/delay)

What this is calculating is.... (average damage per swing of primary hand / delay) + (average % duel wield fires)(average damage per swing of offhand / delay)

This.

[lecompte]

Originally Posted by Ketu Garyx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This.

thread has been done for a long time ;p

[Ketu Garyx]

That's what I get for drunk browsing the forums.