Catherins attempt at lawyering

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

nvm chest, sanity just went out the window, don't bother. not worth saving at this point.

I sent you a PM with a question if you find time to look at it.

[Cecily]

I'm *trying* to hug it out with Chest and you're sticking your rotten taken nose into it. It's not about casual vs hardcore. It's about the unchecked animosity between TMO and lesser guilds, like yours. You should really try to be nicer to us.

[Uuruk]

Originally Posted by Susvain2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

HOLY FUCKING SHIT. AM I ON CRAZY PILLS

DEAR CATHERIN AND CHEST

if TMO member was on Sev spawn point and Sev spawned - TMO would have been suspended/forfeited the mob

BUT, the member moved and was with everyone else in the correct spot when Sev spawned. So NO HARM = NO FOUL. what the fuck how is this thread so long how are you two this insane. What is hard to understand. Holy fuck. No one in TMO is trying to get over on ya'll by standing on Sev spawn point, that person would get reprimanded and in trouble, and would cost the guild more trouble than killing Sev is worth

Hey buddy, it's just a game calm down. Go outside maybe or adopt a pet.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by toolshed [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Am I mistaken? GMs locking every other guild out of VP other than TMO/IG isn't favoritism??

You are mistaken. Any other guild can become class C and join in the VP fun.
Derp?

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am convinced you continue to phrase this way to intentionally drive me insane. Sirken not only helped to set up this meeting, helping to choose a date and time as well as being on the phone with Unbrella when we made the decision to attempt to mediate their dispute, and was also present for the entire discussion, being an integral part of the final decision to remove BDA from a RNagafen. Clearly being "browbeaten" when we are asked all of one time to set this up while working out another dispute involving TMO.

For the sake of my sanity please refrain from incorrectly conveying these events in the future.

So basically you are saying Chest is spinning details? Oh I'm surprised.

[kotton05]

Chest you're biting the hand that feeds. We're all playing the same game here. Sirk and deru both rule pretty fair and do their best (although I may not be happy sometimes with it). With that said, we once had a talk (our guild liaisons and GM's) about frivilous petitions and how to settle amongst ourselves. TMO really tried to do that. Then we found to that over time even when we settled disputes with IB they would still petition us. It was close to a petition ratio of 3 IB to every 1 TMO petition iirc. So now we're forced to petition but we reluctantly filed stupid ones with fear of what the GM's said about wasting their time...

Now with that said... Is being punished for stupid petitions from raid guilds out of the question? If there was punishment that involved that I'm sure people would think long and hard about filing one or fabricating something like this. IB is great at filing 10 petitions in hopes one sticks. I wish I knew the GM's exact thoughts on filing petty claims...


TL[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]R Chest youre a lost cause. Catherine is a fabricator. The raid scene is doomed without some sort of case study or rules against stupid petitions.

[Fael]

Chest, i actually appreciate the sincerety in your responses.

I suppose what I really am reacting to is the modus operandi of the raid leaders on the raid forum. All it takes is one person to make a shady accusation that is not rooted in reality... And then the rest of the community jumps in on the attack, calling for suspensions without any regard to what really happened.

That said, to some degree Catherine actually was doing a good job helping self police the raid scene by telling ib and TMO to back up out of range. She is not requires to do it, but it's necessary. This is something raid leaders do all the time, such as when guild members have been leveling past the zone line when trak and vs are in widow. Call it preventative measures. To some extent that's your job--you guys helped craft these rules, and seemingly propose new ones on a daily basis.

As I've said before, you don't have to do it. Let TMO screw up and get suspended. But what is absolutely crazy is the idea that you can take a fraps of something that occurred at the beginning of a window, something that was fixed, and then use it as a basis for a suspension after the fact, particularly when no raid interference occurred. That is a form of rule lawyering that should be frowned upon by te community and not supported with open arms.

Dolic

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am convinced you continue to phrase this way to intentionally drive me insane. Sirken not only helped to set up this meeting, helping to choose a date and time as well as being on the phone with Unbrella when we made the decision to attempt to mediate their dispute, and was also present for the entire discussion, being an integral part of the final decision to remove BDA from a RNagafen. Clearly being "browbeaten" when we are asked all of one time to set this up while working out another dispute involving TMO.

For the sake of my sanity please refrain from incorrectly conveying these events in the future.

Ok let's break this down. First, a timeline of the pertinent events.

1) 6/8/14 (give or take a day) Nagafen dies to Taken. BDA ran in with about 10 people at around 15% or something to get some hits in. Taken and BDA were of the opinion that Naggy was going down no matter what. TMO was of the opinion that Taken was wiping and by BDA assisting it cost them an attempt on Nagafen assuming Taken would have wiped.

Unbrella immediately files a petition saying as much. The official violation in his mind was that since BDA had trackers there and Taken had trackers there so once BDA assisted (regardless of the circumstances) BDA/Taken became a combined raidforce thus violating the more than two tracker rule.

As an insight to that incident, I wasn’t there. I didn’t make the call to go in and beat on Naggy, but from the officer present the entire thing was done as a goof on our side. The intent wasn’t “omg Taken is wiping, let’s make sure TMO doesn’t get dem pixels” even if was being spun like that. Whatever, let’s move on.


2) 6/14/14 (give or take a day) The infamous Dinacarl incident. This incident led to Sirken having a conversation with all the class R guild leaders separately (probably a week later or so) to discuss if GT was unfairly drummed out of the rotation. GT imploded soon after the incident because they had some very inept leadership. Class R did everything in our power to help them acclimate to the system.

During Sirken's conversation with me (that lasted nearly 2 hours) the topic of Unbrella's Nagafen petition came up. Sirken assured me it was a non issue and that it was case closed.


3) 7/29/14 TMO eats a VP raid suspension from an IB petition that dated back to May. TMO is obviously upset because they felt blindsided by it and I don’t blame them, I’d be pissed too.


4) 8/15/14 Derubael PMs me about a pending petition from TMO

Between points 3 and 4 TMO was going into full PetitionQuest mode. The staff had a fundamental shift as to how they were dealing with the petition system so Unbrella was making sure any and every possible petition that hadn’t been answered was going to get answered. TMO felt slighted by the way the IB petition against them was handled (rightfully so) so any old petitions that had been dismissed were being resurrected so the full scope of each incident could be analyzed and the new staff stance could be applied just like the IB petition.


Here’s the conversation between Derubael and I. Things got relatively heated because I was on vacation and I had felt lied to by Sirken at this point. Derubael and I don’t really get along lol…

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm being told that TMO has an outstanding petition against BDA/Taken. Since it's gone unresolved, we need a BDA representative to come sit down with myself, Sirken, Unbrella, and a Taken rep.

I'm not sure of the exact specifics. The BDA rep doesn't have to be you if you don't want to deal with this - just as long as it's someone with the authority to make a decision without needing to check with anyone.

Sirken and I are only there as moderators. We refuse to get involved in any capacity beyond that.

Let me know what a good time is for you/your rep. We'd like to get this resolved this weekend.

Originally Posted by Chest Rockwell

I have no information on this outstanding petition.

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Neither do I - but we're all going to sit down and hash it out regardless. They feel they have a legitimate claim and that needs to be addressed. What is a good time for you or your rep?

Originally Posted by Chest Rockwell

I don't want to send a rep to anything without information as to what it's about. The only thing I can think of is a Nagafen dispute from months ago where we finished off a kill Taken had FTE on without any coordination with Taken. Sirken 100% assured me via a conversation in our vent that the issue was closed, so give me more information and if it's legit I'll send a rep but I don't enjoy being summoned up on a whim over a dead issue that the head server GM said was closed just because Unbrella thinks he can strongarm us in a sitdown.

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm on the phone with the head server GM right now and we both agree this needs to be dealt with. I believe it is the situation you outlined with Nagafen and helping taken to down the target. We need a rep from BDA or we will just assume you guys are acquiescing to whatever TMO wants as a resolution. Since that's dumb, it would be great if you would send someone.

As a side note, when I send a PM asking for your cooperation as it relates to p99 I expect those requests to be followed. I don't want to have to be dealing with this in the first place and neither does Sirken so we'd appreciate some cooperation when being given a reasonable request. I wouldn't be bringing something up without consulting with my associate first anyway.

Let us know when you have time or a representative has time to sit down and go over this. Neither of us has done a thorough review of the situation - that's up to you guys as players to look at and come to an agreement on.

Originally Posted by Chest Rockwell

I want to Sirken to send me a PM stating that we're being called to the carpet on an issue that he said to me personally that was resolved. If you want to talk to someone hop in BDA and find an officer. Sadad and cucs are in the loop.

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know what your issue is with me, or why you feel the need to constantly be difficult, but I'm tired of it. We have enough to do without you adding to that workload. I've done my best in the past few months to show you respect and have been met with nothing but resistance and difficulty.

Sirken will not be sending you a PM. You are being asked by a GM to attend a meeting with the senior server CSR staff and the guilds in question. If you have any reservations about that, you can ask Sirken about it yourself. Until then, you will follow instructions given to you by any member of the CSR staff, including the Guides. If you don't like that, you can take it up with Rogean. I know he loves it when players don't follow simple and reasonable instructions given to players by the CSR staff.

As BDA's guild leader I shouldn't need to contact anyone else in your guild about this. You can either send a rep or not - it makes no difference to me. But if you are unable to be present or unwilling to attend, BDA will not get a say in what happens to them, and will need to rely on Taken to negotiate for them.

If you'd like to be difficult, I can be difficult as well. The next time you refuse to follow instructions given to you by any member of the CSR staff, we'll suspend your account. It's unacceptable for you to treat the staff this way.

As always, if you have a problem with any of this, you are welcome to copy and paste it to Rogean. I've done my best to work with you and try to put whatever bad blood we had between us in the past to rest, but if you want to continue being an ass I'm happy to enforce every rule we have regarding treatment of CSR staff.

We're expecting an answer in the next day or two. That should be plenty of time to find a rep and a time.

Originally Posted by Chest Rockwell

I'm not in fucking town and I'm not being fucking difficult. Look at this from my perspective. I had a two hour conversation with Sirken, this was when he was interrogating people after the GT fiasco. I was told by Sirken that this matter was HANDLED. The fact that I cannot get confirmation from Sirken and am instead being told different by you is disconcerting at best and completely frustrating at worst.

I feel like Unbrella asked Dad to handle this issue and Sirken told him it wasn't a valid petition so Unbrella then Unbrella went behind dads back to ask Mom (you) to handle it and here we are.

I don't have a problem with you individually and with all the issues I've had with Sirken he at least treats me with a modicum of respect and doesn't say "show up or forfeit" so I want to confirm this through Sirken. I want him to tell me he's going back on his word that he gave to me.

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have no idea what went on between you and Sirken. He has told me this issue wasn't resolved. Regardless, if I ask for a BDA rep to be present for a raid dispute, I don't want to be argued with. I have enough to deal with as it is. You can give me a time that works for your rep, or put me in contact with the person you would like to represent you. If you have a separate issue to take up with Sirken, do that on your own time - my only interest is getting this set up and out of the way.

Originally Posted by Chest Rockwell

So I'd like Sirken to confirm that then. A GM gave me his word. I want it confirmed.

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Great. Then we will schedule this without BDA present.

Originally Posted by Chest Rockwell

So when can I speak with Sirken?

At this hearing (that I didn’t attend, Sadad did) we adamantly stressed that there was no collaboration between us and Taken. Our actions were of our own volition and we had no contact with Taken nor was any loot shared. Taken was dismissed. Derubael said that he and Sirken were only going to moderate the discussion, it ended up being Derubael/Sirken handing down a punishment because obviously BDA and TMO were never going to see eye to eye on situation. I don’t believe there were any fraps of screenshots of BDA and Taken trackers holding hands tracking together. I don’t think it would have mattered anyways because we were going to be guilty regardless. Even though this was an FFA encounter Derubael/Sirken decided to use the leverage of the rotation to implement our punishment which was to be suspended from our next Class R Nagafen in the rotation slot, which incidentally just came to pass. So this Nagafen incident happened in early June, we were suspended from our Nagafen rotation slot that just came up in mid October so maybe we’ll see Nagafen again around Christmas. A solid 4 month suspension.



The point of this wall of text is to illustrate the differences in the way that the staff handles class C versus class R guilds. Everyone knows Sirken and Derubael prefer the class C mindset, this was evident during the initial class meetings. It’s not like they despise class R, but it’s the same reason why they ask in their podcasts “I wonder why no one moves to class C, all these benefits, etc etc” and to date more class R guilds have been suspended than class C guilds. That’s obviously because there’s more class R guilds but it’s also because that’s just how the punishments have fallen. Even when ALL of class R agreed that Azure Guard shouldn’t have been suspended due to the raid sheet not functioning nothing was done about it. In class C IB and TMO just give mobs up back and forth on a weekly basis. Oh you trained us on this Nexona attempt, you get the next one with no competition, everything is cool now right? I don’t think it’s legislated fairly across the board and that needs to change.

TLDR – mew mew mew class R class C blah blah blah

[FindCorpse]

All I am saying here is seems like same old people interested in personally attacking others rather than constructively criticizing and accomplishing some sort of goal. I am so casual on this server now I am a non factor. Cecily you know I haven't stuck my dirty rotten taken nose in anything that's a generalization. Rants and flames is for entertainment value only, if you want to try to make changes you all know where to make the posts. Your leadership and our leadership can work things out just not in this forum.

[khanable]

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As I've said before, you don't have to do it. Let TMO screw up and get suspended. But what is absolutely crazy is the idea that you can take a fraps of something that occurred at the beginning of a window, something that was fixed, and then use it as a basis for a suspension after the fact, particularly when no raid interference occurred. That is a form of rule lawyering that should be frowned upon by te community and not supported with open arms.

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