Game Mechanics: Rogue hide

[koros]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The funny thing is, when it was tested on eqmac or in untouched areas on Live... it is discovered I'm almost always right [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

You aren't going to get shroud of stealth level hide/sneak here, its not classic. Be behind the mob or be seen.

Honestly I did look high and low and on safehouse/wayback machine. Truthfully, I would want it to be implemented correctly, even if I was wrong about my assertion and I'd own up to being wrong.

But the truth is, there would be loads of information saying "just have a rogue sneak through to check if the mob is up as it cannot be tracked from the zone in" or "have a rogue pull everyone's corpses after a wipe"... but as it turns out... all the pulling of corpses is being done by monks (hi2u 0 cast time FD) or necro coffins in raid zones and all the checking for mobs being up is done by trackers. If rogues were able to very easily just hide/sneak in front of things that could ordinarily see invisible and get past them, there'd be MUCH more data about it. Just like how I said there should be much more about necros being able to dispel the recourse from their healing... it just wasn't possible.

My evidence is based on the rogue epic part of hate, which has the most information. It basically says be careful because some things can see you and some can't, same as invis/itu combo.

Again, I'd rather the classic implementation goes in and I'm wrong.. than it doesn't and I can pretend to be right. There's always a strong following of people coming after my posts when the change inconveniences them. But as we all well know, this isn't the making friends section, this is the make it classic section.

Oh, and it is a fix not a nerf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

Nirgon, I played a rogue. It was superior to invis. Devs basically stopped caring about it being better than invis in Velious. But in seb I could move around decently freely (1 in... 25ish? saw me), hate always had things that could see rogues. Again I cite the list from the safehouse of things that could see hide. I don't really get where your silly claim that we want it to be like sneak+hide when behind a mob, but at all times.

Dragons (Vox and Nagafen)
Fire Giants
Scorn Banshees
Lichs
Loathing Lichs
Evil Eyes
Huge Elemental (Lower Guk)

Lich's and Banshees saw it, which is why hate wasn't a sure thing.

[Scrubosaur]

Check all the links in this thread and it is pretty clear what saw through hide/sneak and what didn't. In fact since you are talking about Hate the links specifically state that the Loathing Lich's see through hide/sneak. And there are posts also stating that mobs have a minute chance of seeing through hide/sneak. On p99 there is no minute chance, in fact there is a huge chance that mobs will see through hide/sneak in almost every dungeon. If that part of p99 is broken (the enormous amount of see invis/hide/sneak mobs) then maybe that is what needs to be fixed. Maybe there weren't enough see invis/sneak/hide mobs around back in 1999-2001 to warrant a discussion on the topic. But as previously stated in the safehouse.com forums there were specific mobs that saw through hide/sneak as well as a minute chance at a random mob being able to see through hide/sneak.

[Dullah]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No I completely get it. You want sneak+hide to work like you're always behind the mob. Rogean knows it isn't the case. Glhf going over his head. Its not going to be shroud of stealth, accept it.

Sorry dude, you're wrong about this one. Aside from my very vivid memories of rogues dragging corpses to the zone-in in sebilis and every other dungeon in the game as well as ganking our xp groups in the disco (neither of these things are possible on P99), the evidence that rogue hide was more than just inv+ivu is like 10:1 to that off opposing evidence. Theres numerous references to complete lists of mobs that see 60 rogue hide during this era and you could p much count them on one hand.

Rogean was like 10 yrs old during this era, gtfo of here with that shit.

[Tuffpuppy]

Originally Posted by Dullah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sorry dude, you're wrong about this one. Aside from my very vivid memories of rogues dragging corpses to the zone-in in sebilis and every other dungeon in the game as well as ganking our xp groups in the disco (neither of these things are possible on P99), the evidence that rogue hide was more than just inv+ivu is like 10:1 to that off opposing evidence. Theres numerous references to complete lists of mobs that see 60 rogue hide during this era and you could p much count them on one hand.

Rogean was like 10 yrs old during this era, gtfo of here with that shit.

Lolno... Monks were the primary corpse pullers in classic through Velious. Especially in places like Sebilis. This fix seems pretty spot on from my recollection. In devs we trust.

[R Flair]

Originally Posted by Tuffpuppy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lolno... Monks were the primary corpse pullers in classic through Velious. Especially in places like Sebilis. This fix seems pretty spot on from my recollection. In devs we trust.

uh, what? Nah, draggin corpses was like the rogue specialty. Never asked monks to FD past casters when rogues could walk right past them with sneak/hide.

[Tuffpuppy]

Originally Posted by R Flair [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

uh, what? Nah, draggin corpses was like the rogue specialty. Never asked monks to FD past casters when rogues could walk right past them with sneak/hide.

Too many random mobs saw through it. Was neither a rogue nor a monk but in most places, not all the monks were the ones dragging. Think you guys are too used to having that AA, or playing on other emu servers. This is classic.

[Scrubosaur]

More info off of Alla explaining rogue sneak/hide :

"At lower levels, sneaking causes rogues to walk or run very slowly. At level 51, you begin to speed up (gradually with each level) to an unnoticable difference at level 60.

Even with a well developed ability with both skills, there are still a number of NPCs that can see a sneak/hidden rogue, such as liches and banshees in Plane of Hate."

Once again it mentions mobs in Plane of Hate that we have already listed as being able to see through Hide/Sneak. It does not mentions kobolds in solb, tons of frogs in seb, or all the casters in sola. It uses an example we already know to be true as per safehouse forums. It also states that rogue speed should increase to almost normal movement in 60 which we don't have on p99.

[Nirgon]

Originally Posted by Dullah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rogean was like 10 yrs old during this era, gtfo of here with that shit.

You play a rogue here, Rogean presumably doesn't. Hhhhhmmm.

[Scrubosaur]

I can understand how people say that monks did the corpse dragging. At least on my server, monks outnumbered rogues probably 25 to 1. Our guild had only 1 raiding rogue and like 10 monks. I am not sure if it was like that on other servers, but it was on Tholuxe Paells.

[Ele]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....o/dCznFZ2jIQwJ

Okay, never played a rogue before, nor a dark elf, so a few questions
>here:
>
>- if I succeed at sneaking ('as quiet as a cat stalking it's prey'
>instead of 'quiet as a herd of running elephants') does that mean nothing
>can see me?

Things can see you. They will not however, go aggro on you if you are
behind them. A successful sneak + hide together will give you Rogue
invisibility, which works on both living and unliving things at the same
time.

>- does 'hide' ever go up in skill or is there always going to be a chance
>of it failing at the wrong time?

Hide does go up eventually. Remember that it's a racial skill for dark
elves, and starts at a skill level of 50 or so, higher than possible to
attain at level 1. Past 100 skill, you'll never fail to hide. Same with
sneak. There are mobs that can see invis (Well, more like X-ray vision,
considering you're not suppose to be in plain sight), or have a chance
of being spawned able to see you depending on your level (Though you'll
mainly have to worry about that 50+).

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....o/mGUVY0rouRoJ

Kobolds in Sol B apparently see through Invis. My rogue can go anywhere
in the kobold areas of Sol B without detection, including the front arcs. I
can't verify that kobolds see through invis, but when I claimed they didn't
(based on my rogue's experiences) I was plastered here so I assume they do.
8)

That's the rub. Some stuff is "born" seeing invisible. Hide may or may
not work on them. Kobolds in Sol B do NOT see through invis by
default, but many of 'em have a friendly neighborhood shaman come
by and cast See Invisible on them. That spell sees through everything.
If you're lucky and can stay out of the front arc you can still sneak,
however, but even monks can do that.
It's just like the frogs in Guk. None of 'em are spawned seeing
invisible except some of the named (frenzied, assassin, etc), but many
times if you happen to be near, for instance, an Urd Ghoul Wizard
you'll see one of his buffs being See Invisible. And he'll cast it
on all his friends nearby, too.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....s/WpqJkLVGAq4J

The only way I know of to be simultaneously invis to both
regular and undead mobs is to be a Rogue using Hide/Sneak.

Guide to Getting Mask of Deception
https://web.archive.org/web/20020812...picID=93.topic

The only thing on the way you should run into that can see through your hide/sneak is the large and giant heart spiders.

there will be ghouls here, so don't jump out of the water unless you have a way by them (itu or sneak/hide).

At the end of this hall is the spider/bat room. The spiders and bats can't see thru my invis but it is unknown to me if it is level based, if you hug the left wall and move quick thou they won't see you. Now you are in another hall, head down it aways and once you start turning hug the right wall. To your left you will see a room full of about 5 greater ice boned skeletons. Hugging the right wall they won't see you but they don't see my sneak/hide.

Now be very careful, if there isn't a group at the camp because the assassin can see thru rogue hide (although sneak will work on him as long as you are behind him of course).