Game Mechanics: Rogue hide

[4WOFURY]

Rogue hide is not as it was in classic. Link to other thread, with multiple evidences.

Why is Rogue hide the same as invis/ivu?

[drktmplr12]

I noticed in the July 2013 patch that Rog hide was made to be the same as invis/ivu. I'm not sure why though? When I started on p99 in 12/12, rogue hide was as I remembered it; better than invis where only select mobs could see through it, not just everything that saw invis.

This makes rogue hide pointless, and even worse than someone who has invis/ivu cast on them, as it has a snare effect.

I don't see any patch notes where hide was nerfed on the classic time line, or made better, and I remember at least during the Kunark/Velious era sneaking all the way through SolB to Nagafen's door; past kobolds and LDCs (though Nagafen did see through hide, and upon being spotted, made for a fun run out of the lair so I didn't die! Giants were usually down and farmed for their loot)

I have no "proof" like a patch note saying it was made better, because it was never bad to begin with. Only thing I see is on http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:Rogue which states :

Quote:
Additionally, mobs that would normally see a character using a spell or potion are much less likely to see a sneak/hidden rogue.
Allakhazam even notates which mobs see invis, and which go further and see hide; as did the p99 wiki.

This does appear to have been written during the PoP era, though it mentions Shroud of Stealth making hide even more powerful, not that hide was the same as regular invis before hand, and again, I have not been able to find any patch notes notating it had been improved/degraded from a previous state.


Also, I have not yet reached level 60, though in talking to some other rogues I see that the snare effect of sneak is still somewhat noticable even at that level. My remembrance of classic was that the snare was removed, and you could run freely even while sneaking. Again, this was written during PoP era, but it specifically mentions level 60:

Quote:
At level 51, you begin to speed up (gradually with each level) to an unnoticable difference at level 60.
I'm open to being shown I'm wrong, but otherwise, I don't understand why the hide nerf and sneak-speed reduction at 60 are in place.

Thanks

[drktmplr12]

Post from March 2000 describing sneak/hide mechanics, no replies or discussion in it:

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/s...ead.php?t=2855

[bulbousaur]

This is correct. Why else would rogues be used for CR? It's not just because sneak is invis plus ivu - only select mobs saw through it, not every see invis.

[4WOFURY]

Thanks drktmplr12. Quotes from my Server chat thread that weren't included in your quote -

Originally Posted by 4WOFURY [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I noticed in the July 2013 patch that Rog hide was made to be the same as invis/ivu. I'm not sure why though? When I started on p99 in 12/12, rogue hide was as I remembered it; better than invis where only select mobs could see through it, not just everything that saw invis.

This makes rogue hide pointless, and even worse than someone who has invis/ivu cast on them, as it has a snare effect.

I don't see any patch notes where hide was nerfed on the classic time line, or made better, and I remember at least during the Kunark/Velious era sneaking all the way through SolB to Nagafen's door; past kobolds and LDCs (though Nagafen did see through hide, and upon being spotted, made for a fun run out of the lair so I didn't die! Giants were usually down and farmed for their loot)

I have no "proof" like a patch note saying it was made better, because it was never bad to begin with. Only thing I see is on http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:Rogue which states :

Allakhazam even notates which mobs see invis, and which go further and see hide; as did the p99 wiki.

This does appear to have been written during the PoP era, though it mentions Shroud of Stealth making hide even more powerful, not that hide was the same as regular invis before hand, and again, I have not been able to find any patch notes notating it had been improved/degraded from a previous state.


Also, I have not yet reached level 60, though in talking to some other rogues I see that the snare effect of sneak is still somewhat noticable even at that level. My remembrance of classic was that the snare was removed, and you could run freely even while sneaking. Again, this was written during PoP era, but it specifically mentions level 60:



I'm open to being shown I'm wrong, but otherwise, I don't understand why the hide nerf and sneak-speed reduction at 60 are in place.

Thanks

Originally Posted by 4WOFURY

At www.thesafehouse.org, and written on March 31, 2000:

[Baxter]

There is no way this is working right. The entire ability is worthless when a simple invis is superior. How in any way is a wizard just as good CRing corpses with invis compared to the state of rogues right now? I never recall back in the day of groups looking for CRs calling out to wizards and druids....

I have a sky mask(unlimited self invis) and I haven't used my sneak hide since the patch.

[Shamalam]

Originally Posted by 4WOFURY [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What I don't understand, is that when I started on p99 in 2012, hide/sneak was working as it should, and as it did in classic. It was this patch that mega-nerfed it, without any sort of reason.

Sunday, July 14th, 2013

It looks like this might have been the patch that also fixed invis pulling. Is it possible that these changes are unintentionally related?

[Supaskillz]

Originally Posted by Baxter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is no way this is working right. The entire ability is worthless when a simple invis is superior. How in any way is a wizard just as good CRing corpses with invis compared to the state of rogues right now? I never recall back in the day of groups looking for CRs calling out to wizards and druids....

I have a sky mask(unlimited self invis) and I haven't used my sneak hide since the patch.

If a wiz is as good as you, you are doing it wrong.

I think hide should be somewhere between where it was before and where it is now. I think it is evident hide had a different check than invis, however need more comprehensive list of what saw through hide. Before patch changing it, basically had to worry about hs goo, chardok dogs, fire giants, and an occasional scorn banshee and turmoil toad. The list must be longer than this. Maybe I will try to dig when I'm not at work. As I mentioned before I am certain there are mobs in seb who see hide.

[4WOFURY]

Originally Posted by Shamalam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It looks like this might have been the patch that also fixed invis pulling. Is it possible that these changes are unintentionally related?

I doubt it, as we're now able to become just as invisible as anyone else. Invis pulling was casting invis on a monk while he was FD, then not having to worry about ads - from what I know.

However, notice in that statement that I said just as invisible as anyone else. Rogues are defined as a stealthy class, and surpass the inivisibility of others.

Every kobold in SolB now see's through hide and attacks me.

Each mob was comprehensively listed on the wiki of before, which data was probably taken from eq.allakhazam.com, as which mobs saw invis, and which mobs went further to see hide.

[Supaskillz]

Zam have this list in correct time frame?