Class defining epic

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

well first of all, bard is a melee hybrid. if a bard is forced to use instrument for mods 100% of the time, he would be doing negligible damage with his autos from an empty hand. with epic, he only does slightly more than negligible damage, but at least there's a weapon in that hand now. if that's not a different way to play, i don't know what is.

That is a common way of thinking, and terribly wrong.

Bard melee damage is negligible, even with the epic. With a dual wield cap of 210 and no double attack, their damage is laughable at best. Paladins/SKs have a double attack cap of 235 and no DW.

This means, mathematically, with equal gear/buffs, paladins/SK will out-melee a bard due to the fact that they will have more double attack checks than bards will have dual wield checks.

So, assuming a bard is in a melee group in a raid setting, he shouldn't be meleeing at all. He should stand close to the melees in his group and switch instruments appropriate to the songs he's playing in order to provide the maximum buffing effects.

Playing McVaxius Berzerker Crescendo with a McVaxius Horn of War (23) will net more STR/ATK than played with the epic (18). Multiply that STR/ATK gain in a group full of rogues and monks, that will net more damage as a whole than the bard would be able to do by himself.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bard epic is good. It's addition to singing equates to 56 extra resist for an entire group. That's like adding a Tranix Crown, Earring of Essence, and 2 Jacinth Rings worth of resists to everyone in the group. Just because of that bard epic.

So it will save you mana in-fights from healing and increase DPS because people live longer.

Also some people mentioned it earlier - No bard mana songs are modifiable. The cantata modifies the HP given, the mana however cannot be increased. If it's bugged on this server and is getting modified, I will endeavor to Nerf this with all my power, because that is not classic.

I agree that +56 extra resist is nice, but if you really wanted to boost resists, you'd be playing elemental/purifying rhythms with a drum for even more resists!

The level 32 mana song is modified by the voice modifier on the epic, though. In luclin, bards get Amplification at level 30, which is a self-buff that increases singing and works with that song. They also get Voice of the Serpent, which is a range clicky item that gives Resonance, a +singing buff. It drops from a named in Ssra [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Cantata of soothing is a string-based song and only the hp regen gets modified by having a lute equipped. That's not a bug, because if the mana regen component was able to be modified, it would be absurdly overpowered.

[falkun]

Everyone saying the rogue epic is more class defining than the bard epic is trolling. The ATK from the rogue epic is 10 better than the bard's, but the bard supplies that 30 ATK to the entire group. Rogues have other items they could use for the haste, and BIS DPS weapons do not include the rogue epic even in Kunark, let alone Velious. Bards had their epic equipped essentially 100% of the time from Kunark through the PoP EPs.

Wycca's list for cleric, bard, and mage epics is accurate.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by Erydan Ouragan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is a common way of thinking, and terribly wrong.

Bard melee damage is negligible, even with the epic. With a dual wield cap of 210 and no double attack, their damage is laughable at best. Paladins/SKs have a double attack cap of 235 and no DW.

This means, mathematically, with equal gear/buffs, paladins/SK will out-melee a bard due to the fact that they will have more double attack checks than bards will have dual wield checks.

So, assuming a bard is in a melee group in a raid setting, he shouldn't be meleeing at all. He should stand close to the melees in his group and switch instruments appropriate to the songs he's playing in order to provide the maximum buffing effects.

Playing McVaxius Berzerker Crescendo with a McVaxius Horn of War (23) will net more STR/ATK than played with the epic (18). Multiply that STR/ATK gain in a group full of rogues and monks, that will net more damage as a whole than the bard would be able to do by himself.

This is very true. The only problem is that for some songs the **only** instrument (voice mod) is the epic. It so happens that some of those voice mod songs are critical for bards. You are certainly right that some important songs aren't voice (drum for resists, horn for attk and ds, lute for hp regen, etc.).

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is very true. The only problem is that for some songs the **only** instrument (voice mod) is the epic. It so happens that some of those voice mod songs are critical for bards. You are certainly right that some important songs aren't voice (drum for resists, horn for attk and ds, lute for hp regen, etc.).

Some voice songs are critical for bard? Which ones? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only singing songs that get increased values are the 51 snare+AC/AGI debuff, the 32 mana song and psalms. Haste and slow are never modified.

Let's not take the 51 song into account. So it's about the mana regen increase and the resists/DS from psalms?

I agree it's nice, but certainly not "critical". Maybe if you're on mana-pumping duty in a caster or cleric group during a long fight in velious, you'd want your epic, yeah.

[koros]

Rogue epic can be banked permanently with Velious drops. It's not class defining for anything more than making the class "good", pretty easily.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Erydan Ouragan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is a common way of thinking, and terribly wrong.

Bard melee damage is negligible, even with the epic. With a dual wield cap of 210 and no double attack, their damage is laughable at best. Paladins/SKs have a double attack cap of 235 and no DW.

i don't understand what your point is here. i said that the damage was negligible. you said the damage was negligible. was i wrong or was i wrong?

the question asked that i was answering asked what was DIFFERENT between having an epic and not. equipping weapons for DW is clearly a different way to play to meleeing with an open fist because you have a lute or horn offhand. the damage is still pretty much negligible, but it's definitely different.

raiding bards basically go from weaponless casters twisting songs on raid to a melee class twisting songs on raids. and that's how it's different.

Originally Posted by Erydan Ouragan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

he shouldn't be meleeing at all.

wow. wrong. so wrong.

[zanderklocke]

Originally Posted by Erydan Ouragan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree that +56 extra resist is nice, but if you really wanted to boost resists, you'd be playing elemental/purifying rhythms with a drum for even more resists!

This depends...if it is a purely a one type of resist fight, the epic will always be better than the drum.

You are correct when it is a fight that necessitates two types of resists.

[zanderklocke]

Can BDA get Deajay his epic already?

There is no bard on this server more deserving of an epic than Deajay.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

i don't understand what your point is here. i said that the damage was negligible. you said the damage was negligible. was i wrong or was i wrong?

the question asked that i was answering asked what was DIFFERENT between having an epic and not. equipping weapons for DW is clearly a different way to play to meleeing with an open fist because you have a lute or horn offhand. the damage is still pretty much negligible, but it's definitely different.

raiding bards basically go from weaponless casters twisting songs on raid to a melee class twisting songs on raids. and that's how it's different.



wow. wrong. so wrong.

If both you and i state that melee damage is negligible, whether you have your epic or not, then why bother with melee (other than applying/refreshing the epic proc) when you can provide better stats by switching instruments, which will net a higher damage increase than if you were meleeing in the first place?

This depends...if it is a purely a one type of resist fight, the epic will always be better than the drum.

Fair enough. Thanks Zan, i don't remember the values with the epic equipped, that was a long time ago and i was using psalm of veeshan anyways :P