A legitimate reason to why bards couldn't AE kite in classic like they can on P99

[Vexenu]

Mousewheel zoom-out was definitely not a classic feature. Most of the F9 camera angles were really awkward and not functional to use while engaged in combat. As far as I know it was pretty much universal to play exclusively in first person, with a few exceptions.

Looking back, the fact that EQ basically forced a first person view on you definitely made it more immersive when compared to newer MMOs. You felt like you were actually IN the world, rather than watching your character run around it.

[radda]

i dont use mouse wheel out, just f9 and circle

[Clark]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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Interesting... I wish I had more bard experience to be able to comment on the P99 side, but I did find bard kiting very tricky back on live (pre-Kunark days).

Fixed pending update? Or are the bards going to carry on with their silly ways here? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It was definitely a lot different for live. More so due to internet speeds, but I still think mechanics wise too something is different now it seems as far as mobs hit range being shorter here. Idk though was so long ago holy cow.

[Kender]

i ae kited on live and it was easier there. the mobs didn't hit you from as far away, and the ae landed on them when they were further away

i didn't even really need to tap turn on live. full speed drum selos cornering (constantly holding down arrow key not tapping) and the mobs couldn't catch me. only tapped to get them close enough to full corner. once in tight it was pretty much free xp and risk free.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I believe I have found the reason. It wasn't because of your PC, or because you had a shitty connection; these were non-factors in 2001.

It's because you had to deal with the camera views that were offered in classic.

In classic, you were offered the F9 key to change the camera view ONLY. You couldn't hold ctrl or strafe like bards are doing on P99 while in third person because:

1) In classic, there was no strafe keybinding. You had to hold CTRL.
2) In classic, you did not have the mousewheel zoom-out. You had to press F9.

You would have to go into third person via the F9 key, at which point your character's movement is limited to circles, or if you hold ctrl, a straight line. Since you cannot use the mousewheel to adjust from first person view, there is no human reaction time typically capable of doing a change from first/third perfectly each time.

Sure, you could've wrote a program to rapidly press F9 to switch camera views, but that's not allowed on P99, and I am sure SOE/Verant would have frowned on it in classic.

Then, even if you do it perfectly mechanically you still have the technical issues of being able to see the NPCs.
You'd have to be able to see the NPCs, and in classic you are not able to see the NPCs you are kiting unless you physically turn your character in first person, and have to guess where they are otherwise. Any bard on P99 that has kited knows if you keyboard turn during a kite when you are 'swooping' in to land an AE, you're pretty much dead and cannot recover from it.

So, in short, there is one thing that will fix Bards that is actually a legitimate reason to fix in the spirit of classic: Remove the third person scrollwheel camera, and you will fix AE kiting. Other forms of bard kiting, like chant kiting, will be doable still.
I challenge bards to try and AE kite 35+ without using their scrollwheel on their mouse and take a video of it. I don't think you will be able to do it.

Side note: This is also probably why swarm kiting was so popular in classic; it did not require swooping in like AE kiting.

I think you are partially correct. However, I don't use the scroll wheel and I kite. I do the whole thing in third person view (not "chase view"---which is what you get from using the scroll wheel) from start to end. I flip between first and third person by hitting two hotkeys that I have set (rather than the default f9---but hitting f9 would be exactly the same).

I don't see why this is so complicated to be honest. I assume it is more of a comfort thing for some players---like the difference between "tapping" and "mousing" to make your loops. I do hold alt and flip the camera around while I am in third person to see what is behind me very frequently, and am very good at it at this point. Its just what I prefer, and I don't see (though I could be wrong) how it would be affected by the mechanics you are describing.

This method is also how I actually did swarm kiting on live, albeit I didn't start doing so until Velious---so maybe it was different during vanilla/kunark.

Also, the biggest reason I have to strafe on p99 is that on p99 mobs will hit me from out of range (or at least, what should be out of range) if I don't. On live, this didn't happen. Before p99 I **never** used strafe mode while moving, though I guess it would have made sense to do so for other reasons...I just never did, and managed to swarm kite quite easily. To be honest, swarm kiting on p99 is actually much harder than I remember it being on live from a mechanics point of view just because of the funky hit range. Finding the sweet spot of range of songs hitting and not getting hit yourself is much narrower on p99 than it was on live. I won't offer my own explanation/hypothesis for why swarm kiting is so much more popular here than on live (I have a few guesses), but it seems to be the case regardless of the extra difficulty on p99.

Obviously, if you restrict camera options and options to swap between them it makes all types of playing more difficult for those who use those options. And effects those who don't not at all.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

OP's observations are one of the first intriguing reasons I've heard.

My somewhat weaker hypothesis is, that kind of massive mob swarming would have caused 90% of the player base at that time to LD alot, because of hardware/connectivity issues. so it was just not something people did. Hard to sell your product if the person buying it goes keeps going LD, or worse, the bard.

I just remember connectivity and not going LD, by either crashing clients or the zone, waqs a constant issue in classic. And bard kiting -- isn't that exactly the sort of thing that would crash or mega-lag a zone back in the day?

Correct me if I'm wrong of course. It's just my hypothesis why.... NERF BARDS.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by Sadre Spinegnawer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

OP's observations are one of the first intriguing reasons I've heard.

My somewhat weaker hypothesis is, that kind of massive mob swarming would have caused 90% of the player base at that time to LD alot, because of hardware/connectivity issues. so it was just not something people did. Hard to sell your product if the person buying it goes keeps going LD, or worse, the bard.

I just remember connectivity and not going LD, by either crashing clients or the zone, waqs a constant issue in classic. And bard kiting -- isn't that exactly the sort of thing that would crash or mega-lag a zone back in the day?

Correct me if I'm wrong of course. It's just my hypothesis why.... NERF BARDS.

the biggest nerf you can give to a bard is to remember his name/guild name if he is being an ass.

imo, the biggest reason folks didn't do these things so openly and with reckless disregard to others on live is that the biggest fear would be having your reputation ruined. folks on live who behaved the way that folks dislike about bards (I'm not talking about the bards who don't cause mayhem) would have been blackballed from joining guilds, finding grps, even just getting ports.

p99 is a great community, but with so many alts running around any fear of injuring your reputation through asshattery has totally been taken out the equation.

you can't fix this problem by patching strafe and camera mechanics. its a p99 problem NOT a classic EQ problem and NOT a bard problem.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

p99 is a great community, but with so many alts running around any fear of injuring your reputation through asshattery has totally been taken out the equation.

you can't fix this problem by patching strafe and camera mechanics. its a p99 problem NOT a classic EQ problem and NOT a bard problem.

^^ Nailed it. ^^

Although it is fun to bash p99 bards, after all some few of them have earned the right to be viewed as sub-human jerks who probably ought to be the first against the wall when the revolution comes..