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  #1  
Old 10-30-2014, 01:10 PM
texwilly texwilly is offline
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Default Raid scene: Variance Socking

Soooo, I have been watching the discussions on the "raid" scene issues ever since the variance increase. The staff thought that if they increased variance, it would help deter socking. On the contrary, it made the socking worse in the end run.

I'm part of a high end Class C guild and really don't play much because I'm requested to sock my character fully buffed at different locations throughout most of the week. What this increased variance has in effect done to my gaming experience is that it has relegated my character to being logged out unless a mob has been bat-phoned. Joining a raid guild has in effect, reduced my ability to play my character. So, now i reroll a second main to be able to compete with other FFA mob spawns when multiple things are in window. I'm foreseeing the future here that I will need a 3rd main soon for Velious spawns vs. Kunark spawns vs. other FFA repops. And finally, I will need a 4th main to just play the game with friends.

My experience raiding Velious/PoP/GoD/DoN/OOW on live with Altruistic Valorians on Morell-Thule/Erollissi Marr, was that we had a rotation with the other top guilds on the server. We were fairly competitive at different times, the leading guild on the server for different stints (elite for our server, if you will).

This leads me to what I believe broke this server's ability to maintain the "classic" raid experience I was accustomed to. We have a server reminiscent of the days when i played live, but stuck in the same spot for too long (no Velious). I think that is the obvious issue that most of us agree on, lack of content to spread out in. Again, server staff thought to keep things competitive, we should increase variance to get people to go play their characters and only mobilize when a dragon spawns. All of the solution discussions seem to have lead to a consensus that guilds want a shorter variance so that we don't have to sock for so many hours. The intention of the increased variance was to eliminate socking, not elongate it.

TL[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]R. Has much thought been given to, DARE I SAY, increasing the variance significantly to get people to stop camping out at the zonelines fully buffed? Derubael has recently and CLEARLY stated that he does not approve of guilds having groups prepped outside of raid target zones ready to be COTHed. Significant additions to the variance (+- 72hrs or more) would make it much more difficult for raid guilds to poopsock every single spawning dragon.

On live, I clearly remember knowing much less about when mobs would be repopping as we track carefully here. I never "socked" a mob on live in about 3 years of solid raiding (again, fairly competitive), and had to look up the term "poopsock" when i began P99 a couple of years ago. I have followed most of the posts and have not seen this option fleshed out by CSR or guild leaders very clearly.

To start the conversation, I would like to highlight a few benefits to this idea.

1. Should drastically reduce socking.
2. Should maintain competition.

3. Should allow smaller guilds to grow into competitive raiders naturally (IE: they could focus target mobs, sacrificing many other targets for key progression pieces (think Zlandicar/Klandicar)).
4. FTE races would be significantly reduced. Stalling tactics would be difficult while waiting for enough guild members to get to the zone and buff/med. (Remember the days when you would be prepping for a dragon, only pulling it when you thought your team was ready, pushing the limits to beat your opposing guild? This is good competition).
5. Increased tracking times (a big negative, but it was a necessary evil on Live as i remember it).

I propose this independently, without the voice of any guild, strictly from my personal detest of the current raiding environment. I am always a devil's advocate and asked the question to myself "Maybe the GM's just didn't go far enough with the idea?". This FTE-race sock-fest is horrible.
Last edited by texwilly; 10-30-2014 at 01:13 PM..
  #2  
Old 10-30-2014, 01:19 PM
Clark Clark is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metallikus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
all increasing variance does is increase the amount of time people track and poop sock. you cannot deter this behavior with time added.
I'd disagree, at least it wouldn't be as heavy a sock.
  #3  
Old 10-30-2014, 01:20 PM
texwilly texwilly is offline
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I hear your argument, but as the other big "Stop the Socking" post has eluded to in the last few minutes, a discussion has turned into every mob being on a random repop cycle. A huge variance, in effect, does just that. I do not think we as a guild would sock or try to sock all 6 mobs in window. We simply do not have enough characters to do it.

Also, I'm looking for constructive feedback if we can. I really don't post much and felt confident enough in this idea that it should be evaluated.

Finally, this idea is super against the grain and moral code of most raiders because we all hate socking and we think variance is what fucked us in the first place.
  #4  
Old 10-30-2014, 01:21 PM
Daldaen Daldaen is offline
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1. Yes it will reduce some socking. People still will sock, and camp out though. They did back when variance was 96 hours.
2. No. It will keep Class C competing. All Class R will drop out entirely.
3. Nope. See 2.
4. Nope. See 1. They will continue to track entire windows with FTEers and trackers in zone.
5. Yep, see 4.

Increasing Variance is just a way that rewards neckbeards, alienates most/all of Class R and reverts to the broken system we had a year ago.

But I'm guessing you know this? You joined in 2011. You know what it was like with really long variance.
  #5  
Old 10-30-2014, 01:24 PM
texwilly texwilly is offline
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I do Dald, but this FTE race/no way for class R to move up/socking has become extreme even in this servers era. These were unforeseen consequences. I honestly preferred the 96 hour variance. We can no longer attempt to make this a "classic raiding experience", we've been in Kunark for too long.

I should address your comments:

If everything is in window simlutaneously, it is much more difficult to sock everything, I think smaller guilds have a better fighting chance. Further, I would recommend simulated repops remain with bag limits.
Last edited by texwilly; 10-30-2014 at 01:27 PM..
  #6  
Old 10-30-2014, 01:30 PM
jpetrick jpetrick is offline
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You're an idiot if you think more variance helps smaller guilds. Less variance helps smaller guilds. If I have 24 people active in primetime and the variance is 3 fucking days. How is my guild getting a mob? Now if the variance is 1 hour and my guild can sit and be ready for a mob how much of a chance do I have at a mob?
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  #7  
Old 10-30-2014, 01:43 PM
texwilly texwilly is offline
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Whoa whoa whoa. I want an increased variance because i fucking hate the raid environment. I have no resources. I have 1 level 60 and 1 level 36. Now that we are through with the pleasantries, let's assume I am a random guy unaffiliated with a guild (probably the closest representation I have).

You and jpetrick have the same ill-fated thoughts about this being a death sentence to smaller guilds. Now my logic may be flawed because there arn't enough raid target without Velious in the picture, but I believe that the 15ish "raid-merbs" being in window simultaneously would provide for more opportunities for smaller guilds to jump into the action.

The reality is, unless a class R guild wants to sell their souls, they will never jump to Class C. PERIOD. They cannot progress in this environment. If you think that 24 guys in "primetime" will allow you to compete directly with IB and TMO, your thinking is flawed. My idea is that if we spread everyone out again, you could focus on certain targets and beat the wolves. Maybe IB and TMO have too many resources already for this to be effective in the Kunark era?
  #8  
Old 10-30-2014, 01:46 PM
Velerin Velerin is offline
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I think everyone skipped over one of the most important parts of the OPs post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texwilly [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm part of a high end Class C guild and really don't play much because I'm requested to sock my character fully buffed at different locations throughout most of the week. What this increased variance has in effect done to my gaming experience is that it has relegated my character to being logged out unless a mob has been bat-phoned. Joining a raid guild has in effect, reduced my ability to play my character. So, now i reroll a second main to be able to compete with other FFA mob spawns when multiple things are in window. I'm foreseeing the future here that I will need a 3rd main soon for Velious spawns vs. Kunark spawns vs. other FFA repops. And finally, I will need a 4th main to just play the game with friends.
He is not even having fun being able to play his main because of the "competition" on this server. I bet their are lots of class C people like him that want to play their main, run around, have fun (enjoy playing a game!) but feel forced to do this to compete.

I just think its so funny that a "hardcore" raider back in 1999 would be considered a "casual" here (running around doing stuff on his main, figuring out quests, showing off his armor to newbies, hears about a dragon pop and figures out a way to get to the spawn as soon as he can)
Hardcore here is parking your mains and not even being able to play them...
  #9  
Old 10-30-2014, 01:53 PM
texwilly texwilly is offline
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EXACTLY.
  #10  
Old 10-30-2014, 01:55 PM
Magnar Magnar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velerin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I think everyone skipped over one of the most important parts of the OPs post.



He is not even having fun being able to play his main because of the "competition" on this server. I bet their are lots of class C people like him that want to play their main, run around, have fun (enjoy playing a game!) but feel forced to do this to compete.

I just think its so funny that a "hardcore" raider back in 1999 would be considered a "casual" here (running around doing stuff on his main, figuring out quests, showing off his armor to newbies, hears about a dragon pop and figures out a way to get to the spawn as soon as he can)
Hardcore here is parking your mains and not even being able to play them...
^^This. So totally this. Raiding on P99 isn't real EverQuest, and anyone who thinks it is needs their head examined, and needs to take a few clicks on the Wayback links to see what real raiding was like.

Lets use some logic here for a second...what in the hell is the point of constantly camping all of these bosses, arguing with each other, and spending so much time and aggravation fighting with each other if your characters are logged out the entire time you have them with the exception of logging in to kill a boss? Just to keep the other guy from doing the same thing? That's stupid, and you all know it.
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