A legitimate reason to why bards couldn't AE kite in classic like they can on P99

[Secrets]

I believe I have found the reason. It wasn't because of your PC, or because you had a shitty connection; these were non-factors in 2001.

It's because you had to deal with the camera views that were offered in classic.

In classic, you were offered the F9 key to change the camera view ONLY. You couldn't hold ctrl or strafe like bards are doing on P99 while in third person because:

1) In classic, there was no strafe keybinding. You had to hold CTRL.
2) In classic, you did not have the mousewheel zoom-out. You had to press F9.

You would have to go into third person via the F9 key, at which point your character's movement is limited to circles, or if you hold ctrl, a straight line. Since you cannot use the mousewheel to adjust from first person view, there is no human reaction time typically capable of doing a change from first/third perfectly each time.

Sure, you could've wrote a program to rapidly press F9 to switch camera views, but that's not allowed on P99, and I am sure SOE/Verant would have frowned on it in classic.

Then, even if you do it perfectly mechanically you still have the technical issues of being able to see the NPCs.
You'd have to be able to see the NPCs, and in classic you are not able to see the NPCs you are kiting unless you physically turn your character in first person, and have to guess where they are otherwise. Any bard on P99 that has kited knows if you keyboard turn during a kite when you are 'swooping' in to land an AE, you're pretty much dead and cannot recover from it.

So, in short, there is one thing that will fix Bards that is actually a legitimate reason to fix in the spirit of classic: Remove the third person scrollwheel camera, and you will fix AE kiting. Other forms of bard kiting, like chant kiting, will be doable still.
I challenge bards to try and AE kite 35+ without using their scrollwheel on their mouse and take a video of it. I don't think you will be able to do it.

Side note: This is also probably why swarm kiting was so popular in classic; it did not require swooping in like AE kiting.

[stakha]

I only AE kited for about 3 levels in the 30s, but I can tell you definitively that you can do this in first person without problems. You can hear the mobs running behind you when your circle has the correct radius in order to then strafe across to land the ae. The number of mobs following you doesnt matter once you break about 10-15 (one mistake is a death).


All this said, I dont mind if this is nerfed.

[Swish]

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Interesting... I wish I had more bard experience to be able to comment on the P99 side, but I did find bard kiting very tricky back on live (pre-Kunark days).

Fixed pending update? Or are the bards going to carry on with their silly ways here? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Secrets]

Originally Posted by stakha [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I only AE kited for about 3 levels in the 30s, but I can tell you definitively that you can do this in first person without problems. You can hear the mobs running behind you when your circle has the correct radius in order to then strafe across to land the ae. The number of mobs following you doesnt matter once you break about 10-15 (one mistake is a death).


All this said, I dont mind if this is nerfed.

Right - but it's certainly harder to judge distance than noise. If one of those senses are removed, I guarantee bards will be frantically trying to determine noise and not die. I don't know how others kite, but sight and sound play a crucial part in my ability to kite.

[Lazie]

You can strafe without key bindings or holding ctrl...Start a strafe by holding down the up direction and either left or right direction combined with right click on your mouse. Then hit the letter t or / on your keyboard to force chat to activate...let go of the direction keys...You are now locked strafing.


In classic all you had to do after doing that little trick is F9 to the camera angle you prefer and turn with the mouse+right click. Not to rain on your parade because you seemed so sure it wasn't possible. However, it was it was just more tedious.

[Laugher]

I think you may be onto something here, after Trying out the classic UI recently among other things like having to f9 for view changes I could see where it would have at least been a sizable deterrent to kite for some esp given that people back then had 15 less years of knowledge/practice

[abazaba]

Classic there was a lot more wiggle room between bard ae radius and mobs connecting on you, if memory serves. P99 provides a slim margin of error comparatively it seems.

I'm all for a change, as long as it gets us closer to classic.

[falkun]

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) In classic, there was no strafe keybinding. You had to hold CTRL.
Any bard on P99 that has kited knows if you keyboard turn during a kite when you are 'swooping' in to land an AE, you're pretty much dead and cannot recover from it.

While I agree strafing makes PBAOE kiting a whole lot easier, I did all of my OT leveling using tap-turning, and not using strafing. So it can be done reliably, consistently, efficiently.

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2) In classic, you did not have the mousewheel zoom-out. You had to press F9.

You could adjust the camera even without the mouse. I believe the default keybinds are Insert/Delete to zoom the camera forward/backwards from the 2nd F9 (behind the back) and CTRL+page up/page down move the camera vertically up from/down into the ground, so no mouse wheel is necessary, its just easier. I never manipulate the camera by zooming out of first person, I always just head to 2nd F9 and then manipulate from there, as I did on Live (playing Kunark-OoW so not sure where along that time line I picked up my preferred camera angle).

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I challenge bards to try and AE kite 35+ without using their scrollwheel on their mouse and take a video of it. I don't think you will be able to do it.

I already said I did it that way, but if you'd like additional proof I can make up a fresh FRAPs for you.

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then, even if you do it perfectly mechanically you still have the technical issues of being able to see the NPCs.
You'd have to be able to see the NPCs, and in classic you are not able to see the NPCs you are kiting unless you physically turn your character in first person, and have to guess where they are otherwise.

No you don't. Using tap-turning and my camera angle, I always kept the pack at JUST off screen on whichever direction kiting (so if I was turning clockwise the mobs would be just off the right side of my screen, left if running counter-clockwise). I'd use the dot messages to know if I hit the pack, and if I kept my tapping consistent (you get used to it, like a human metronome), the pack was always there for the next DoT song completion to affect 70+% of the pack.

Here's my explanation on pbaoe bard kiting from 2011: http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...09&postcount=4

[stakha]

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Right - but it's certainly harder to judge distance than noise. If one of those senses are removed, I guarantee bards will be frantically trying to determine noise and not die. I don't know how others kite, but sight and sound play a crucial part in my ability to kite.

Perhaps, though I always did it in first person. Immersion levels pretty high knowing there is a crowd of monsters on your tail by the sound if their footsteps (or whatever it is that allows those succulents to move).

[indiscriminate_hater]

key tapped from levels 2 to 55