#31
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Guys, no offense, but it's all just forum spam until we see a video. I'm saying it's not possible, even with a perfect ping (by not possible I mean the songs will all drop briefly, and that's even if the ping is perfect and there are no resists/missed notes). Please prove me wrong though. My experience and testing hold this to be true.
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#32
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ive played a bard casually and i can keep 4 up at once. not for 2 minutes straight and without some song loss but it is possible to have 4 at once.
didnt read all f it so im sure to have missed something. i dont have nor know to run fraps. ha now ill get trained ksd and ninja looted because people know i dot fraps [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] | ||
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#33
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You can have six or more song effects up at one time for an instant. That's not the point. The issue is maintaining a stable four song twist. Come on, this isn't rocket science. I'm saying a permanent stable four song twist is not possible without continual song drop i.e. It's not possible.
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Last edited by t0lkien; 07-06-2013 at 12:51 AM..
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#34
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I've played with and seen some great monks in action pulling on raids and in dungeons but I'll maintain for places with a ton of casters and tight clusters the monk will want the bard out there pulling. Ultimately I think bards have a better range of pulling tools and can be more flexible in a group situation when it comes to pulls. Dumping agro is only one method of pulling effectively - bards can split mobs just as effectively in a group scenario. I've found that pulling with projectiles generates a minimum amount of agro and have never had issues with tanks pulling it off me. Using charm to bring in mobs is another option - once you break the charm the mobs agro list is reset and a tank can pick up the mob with ease. There are numerous ways to overcome this problem and in most cases it won't be one as long as you're not pulling with snare. Thott as a high level bard and in charge of an uber EQ guild was probably more concerned with bard pulling at a raid level, where the focus was definitely put on FD pulling, because he was likely sick of having to sing resist songs at all the raids. Quote:
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People were having this same discussion back in 2001. This guy thought the idea of twisting 4 songs was dumb but acknowledged that people did it. This other guy kinda liked the idea and goes into it in a bit of depth.
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Dalven McTough - Virtuoso
Erudalv - 52 Channeller Weedalv Bigbaws - 46 Dungeon Cleric <Asgard> | |||||||
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#35
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I think the 3 song vs 4 song twist is kind of funny. If your doing your rotations right 4 songs is no issue. Song one will be flashing when you get back around to it, and your already casting it again, by the time it drops off you have your song back up, and your continue down the line, never really loosing any of your four songs. Now granted it is much easier in a group because your already running at least 3 songs before a pull, in a fight you throw auto attack on, and start running your song rotation. I hot bar my 4 fight songs and it makes it smother, because your not clicking all the time. Raids is standard practice 3 songs. but I think this has been said more then once in this discussion
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#36
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Mathematically 5 songs is doable (4 songs + BoH). I haven't played much lately, but when I grouped I'd throw up Regen/Clarity/Haste/Snare+BoH routinely. Snare would never drop because it's a detriment, and regen / haste would only sometimes drop if I got lazy or distracted.
If you are doing non-benificial songs, you can do 5 songs straight up. I do fear+snare+3dots all the time. If you're real good, you can do 6 songs at once, which would be 3 AE's dots + 3 single target dots for some nice DPS (with instrument swapping). Same goes for Mez. It's easy to keep 5 non-resist happy mobs locked down indefinitely. But if I need to keep 3 songs up all the time, for like resistance fights, I only twist those 3 songs (with BoH since no epic) to ensure there are no dropoffs of coverage.
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Muteki - 57 Bard
Alva - 53 Monk Kallon - 58 Shaman | ||
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#37
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so after much failure on kiting orcs in kelethin, I've come to the conclusion that it's impossible. Hit boxes are so wonky that if you pull more than 2, you're screwed and they stun you. Plus 40% exp penalty. Yah woo go bards. /rant off
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#38
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It's important that this is the reality, and that it's recognised so we do don't get posts confusing people with misinformation, untried theory crafting, and erroneous anecdote that.... Quote:
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*sigh*
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Last edited by t0lkien; 07-06-2013 at 07:14 PM..
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#39
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As I said though, I know you get it, and the choice to twist more than 3 is situational. The important point is that songs will drop, and that should be understood. The thing I'm trying to mitigate here is the silliness that goes on when people start expecting Bards to twist 4 songs, and "five if you're really good HYUK!"
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Last edited by t0lkien; 07-06-2013 at 08:58 PM..
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#40
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Mathematics: Each song has a cast time of ~3 seconds Each Beneficial Duration song lasts between 12 and 18 seconds, depending on where the song was cast in regards to the server tick. 12/3 = 4, so mathematically he maximum number of songs you can play at any one point is 4, since that's the hard minimum. If you can automate the process so there's no lag, then you have 4 beneficial durationsongs that are only broken up by missed-note garbage. However the example I gave presented two different songs types: Non-buffs (clarity song) and detrimentals. Clarity buff doesn't have a timer, it's just flat mana. The Snare is a detriment, and those have a duration lasting between 18 and 24 seconds. So, by switching out two duration beneficial songs, we now only have the probility of a song dropping every 4 cycles, and those would be the Haste or the Regen. Both of those songs wouldn't be seen as huge detriment to the group if they drop for a few seconds, so it isn't a horrible situation. If you are twisting resists? Then yeah, you probably want to keep it safe. If you switch out more of those songs for the detriments, then you run into why bard fear kiting works. Since the minimum duration on the detrimental songsis 18s, that means you can at max have 18/3 == 6 detrimental songsrunning at a time. Since there isn't a grace period with the detrimental songs, it's advisable to only run 5 at a time to take into account server ticks. So yes, it is possible to twist 4 songs at once, hell even 5. If you are wanting to just twist beneficial duration songs, then you won't have much luck. Even when I had it going with two macros using stopsong, I'd still get a drop of a quarter of a second every other cast due to innate UI lag. You can test it yourself with the following macros: Macro1: /stopsong /pause 28, /cast 1 /stopsong /pause 28, /cast 2 Macro2: /stopsong /pause 28, /cast 3 /stopsong /pause 28, /cast 4 Spamming those two macros still leaves you with about a second of wasted time for letting the client cast the next song. If stopsong were instantanious then the above macros would allow for seamless twisting of 4 beneficial duration songs. But the question was how many songs you can twist at once, and if you are including our entire bevy of songs then yes, the most you can twist is 5 + BoH (or any clickable bard song). As with all things Bard, this isn't a cut and dry example of "give me a hardline guide on how to do something!" The amount of songs you can twist at any given point is entirely determined by the situation that you are presented with, and augmented by the skill of the player involved. So I guess what you are wanting is a breakdown like this? How many songs can I keep up if I am responsible for resists? 3. One of either our two "3 resist type" drum resists or of our 5 "single resist" singing songs, Guardian Rhythms, and any other beneficial song (typically Cantata). How many mobs can I keep mezzed at once? 5. Any more than that and you'll run into big mistakes with resists. Subtract one/two if you want to Charm safely. How many songs can I play if I am soloing and don't need the buffs? 5. Fear + Snare + 3 Drum Dots work great. Still a go-to even with Epic. If I'm in a group, how many can I keep up if I'm not CC and this isn't a resist fight? 4, depending on your situation. If the only beneficial song you need to keep up is Regen (or additionally haste), then you can run a Snare+Regen+Clarity+Haste setup where the only drop is in Regen/Haste, and that only impedes on the group a tiny bit considering the benefits from snare/clarity being added to the mix. You can switch out snare with Mez, Charm, or any other detrimental song as needed. Or in an all-caster group drop Haste for double dose of Clarity. Or a triple dose by dropping Snare. So I guess you want to hear that yes, you are in fact correct that it is unrealistic to keep 4 beneficial duration songs up and going for an entire fight that lasts longer than 24 seconds (the amount of time needed for the songs to drop on the second pass). But not all of our songs are constrained to the same timers, so the answer isn't cut and dry. Some setups can be very successful with twisting 5 songs.
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Muteki - 57 Bard
Alva - 53 Monk Kallon - 58 Shaman | |||
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