the server, loot and the way things are

[Qenaden]

Originally Posted by Messianic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Since you didn't actually attack the analogy or refute it, you admit it's valid, despite your subjective valuations of "tangible benefit."

The scale and circumstances are different, but the form is the same.

Snap!

[Nakara]

Originally Posted by Messianic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Since you didn't actually attack the analogy or refute it, you admit it's valid, despite your subjective valuations of "tangible benefit."
.

pretty sure saying your analogy is dumb as fuck is refuting it

[Nakara]

you should keep throwing around your phrase 'subjective valuations' that your probably just learned in your econ 101 course to try and keep sounding smart though

[Pikle]

OMG Nakara double posted! I learned that in forum posting 101 it's a no-no! Seriously though, EQ is about competition, if you can't cut it, just wait a year and people will let you have naggy/vox [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[mr.miketastic]

Originally Posted by Messianic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Since you didn't actually attack the analogy or refute it, you admit it's valid, despite your subjective valuations of "tangible benefit."

The scale and circumstances are different, but the form is the same.

I think pointing out the irony of the false analogy is a refutation. I am pretty sure the valuation is "subjective" if it were only readily apparent to one person. In this case, I am almost positive that having millions and all the sex you want is a pretty tangible benefit. On the flip side, having uber leet gear from many hours spent on your ass tapping keys is not going to get you money or any pussy beyond badjojo.com.

[Lagaidh]

Originally Posted by Messianic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not "might makes right." It's "I have more free time which I am willing to devote to EQ." We're not talking about fascism or ends justifying means here - we're talking about something more akin to one athlete spending far more of his time and sacrificing more of his life toward a particular goal than another (allowing talent to be equal), and therefore receiving the award as a result.



That's how you view the ideal world. And it has errors - first, "Greed" is a worthless word for all intents and purposes. What about those who want the rotation? Aren't they "Greedy" for an encounter as well, they just go about it by trying to force people into a system they designed, as opposed to sacrificing more time to "be there first"?

Second, "taking things seriously" is entirely subjective and people will assign different values to different experiences. No one's valuation is more valid than anyone else's, regardless how steeped in self-morality it is.

Third, those who "compete" are not "keeping others down" as a matter of their intent - Does a gold medalist "keep the silver medalist down?" It has nothing to do with some silly idea of oppression or suppression - it's merely the fact that they have chosen to devote more of their resources to an online game and do so with the expectation that in most cases, they will receive a greater reward than those who don't.

The ideal world, in my opinion, isn't a bunch of carebears sitting around distributing rewards based on "it's your turn," when Carebear #1 is the one putting in all the work to acquire the items to sell at market or equip those close to him. There are lots of things I don't like that are side-effects of a pure meritocracy, but the essential core is still "valid."



It may not even be to say "they're number one." That's an assumption. Perhaps each time they do an encounter that they've already experienced they wish to be able to master the encounter, and show others how to conquer said encounter more effectively in a guild setting. That's more likely the case - you just don't hear those people in R/F/NSFW because they're busy enjoying the game instead of complaining constantly or causing drama for giggles.

But all of this is based on your subjective valuation (coupled with unsubstantiated assumptions about the source of that valuation, i.e. "i need my self-worth validated by killing inny 85 times") of certain experiences and certain encounters - and it's not binding on others.

The fact of that matter is the type of enjoyment of the game varies, and it's simply more fair to allow those who are willing to sacrifice more to get more out of the game. Again, if the relevant organizations make agreements to "cap" the sacrifice that anyone has to put forth to experience those high-end encounters, so be it.

Well, folks in the thread have admitted to blocking folks out, just so the blocking person can remain measurably superior.

I find that sad. Sorry.

Hey if something truly were important on the line, I could understand the vicious competition. I love my EQ, I love the little treasures I've amassed. We all like to measure. I just can't reconcile being a dick to someone for my treasures.

I understand the argument of time invested bringing commensurate in-game reward, but there are times (and admissions in this thread) that that is not the issue at play.

I guess I sound like a fucking hippy, but there's just no reason to be so mean about one's advancement or position at the top.

Like I used to say in live, you can't fuck anybody with an e-peen.

Maybe what interests me about the topic is the true motivations of a player that leads them to such a state that they willfully, and understandingly will try to prevent other players from experiencing things for their own perceived status. I suppose it's akin to those folks that are fascinated by serial killers. What makes them do that? Where's the benefit?

I'm straying off topic, but I'm running out of words to describe what whirls in my head on the issue. I've already failed at describing my curiosity, or I don't think I would have received the replies I did.

That's my failure.

It is interesting to me.

Hopefully, with my style and pace, by the time I'm ready for some Fear or Hate... there will be room for me. That's how it happened in Live for me. I'm a broken record in saying that I was the master of wasting time in EQ. 310 days on Lagaidh Smif the 1st, and I made L70 with a few hundred AAs. Hey, at least I reached the level cap for when I quit, hehe.

Anyway, thanks to those that responded to my meandering thoughts without resorting to flaming me or calling me a newb. I appreciate that much.

Cheers. See you in Norrath.

[zebin]

This thread kept reminding me of something. I finally figured out what it was...

Run.

This is my character. I can make his face look like I want, and I can name him, and I can choose his stats. This is fun! See Xribinlendarxis run. Run, Xribinlendarxis, run!

This is my rat. I will slay the rat and rip off his whiskers. This is fun! See my rat run. Run, rat, run!

This is my quest. I'm helping this man who can't find his daughter. The story is, she got lost in the sewer, and a shark ate her. This is so cool. I wonder how many things like this there are in the game? There's so much to do! There's the shark now, run, shark, run!

This is my partner, Corandialisteria. She is a healer, and I am a fighter. We can kill more stuff if we work together. This is going to sound funny, but I really feel like I know her, you know? We're getting to be real friends, not just in the game. We try to meet every night, because we make such a great team. Run, team, run!

This is my group. We are fighting together. We are just learning what the other classes can do, so we die a lot, but it doesn't matter. I reappear one zone away, so I can get back to my group really fast. We are beating the orcs. This is fun! Run, orc, run!

This is my room in a dungeon. My group fights all the things that spawn here. It's a long walk if we die, but we're better at fighting now, so we don't die very often. Our group just got the L33T SWORD OF ASS KICKING! We decided the warrior needs it the most, and we gave it to him. He's pretty happy. Run, warrior, run!

This is my camp in the dungeon. We can't seem to find an enchanter, or a bard, or anyone with crowd control, so we're kind of on edge at the moment and getting a little touchy and temperamental, but we're camping for the UBER L33T MACE OF INYOFACE and the thing who drops it only pops every two hours, so we gotta hang on for a little longer. Hey! One dropped! Um… the warrior wants it, and he's been here for six hours, but the cleric has been here for eleven hours and he really wants it for his warrior twink, but I'm pretty sure he's going to sell it. Dammit, what do I do now? Everyone wants it, and it takes forever to get one, "be patient" is NOT going to go over well…wtf is a train, and why does the guy in the next room keep yelling it? WHERE THE HELL DID ALL THOSE FROGS COME FROM! Run, Xribinlendarxis, run!

This is my part of the dungeon, and I fucking own it! Man, we've been pulling the named Bigcritterofboxershortscream all NIGHT and it's running like clockwork. We are one well-oiled MACHINE, I tell you, and we're managing to pull all the shit from three rooms around. It fucking hurts to be this good! Sure, it took four hours for the break in, and we had a nasty CR, but we regrouped and we made it! Pulling the whole area is what makes it worthwhile, you know? I died three times getting here, but the way we're pulling I'm going to make that exp back AND make a healthy profit selling the phat lewt we have dropping on us like a fucking hailstorm. We rule! Hey - what the fuck? That d00d from The Shining Knights of Nutlicking just took one of my pops! Who the fuck he thinks he is, coming in here and farming my goddam repops? This area is mine, motherfucker! Get out or I'll train your ass out! Run, biotch, run!

This is my plane. First of all, cocksucker, your little no name bunch of roleplaying L00ZERS couldn't hack it up here without my skillz, so don't even think about raiding up here. Check the board, you little pussy, and grovel nicely, and MAYBE I'll let you up here to slurp up my sloppy seconds. If you wanted to play in my plane, you should have bought the game when I did on release and play 24/7. You snooze, you lose, asshole. My group, I mean my guild, earned the right to be here, and while I was WORKING on my shit, you were what? Doing quests? Making friends? Exploring? What a gimp. What did you think this was, a game? Get the fuck out of here, or no one who's anyone on this server will cyber you with someone else's keyboard. Run, loser, run.

This is my zone. I swear to fucking god, if that stupid Cyclops doesn't show up and drop a ring I'm going to go postal. I am the only one in the entire game who doesn't have jboots, and everyone knows you can't play the game without jboots. There's just no way in hell. I gotta have them, and I deserve them. I don't see why I can't just slaughter that little fucking Yoda clone and grab his pair. What the hell were the designers thinking, putting in quests? You'd think this game was about quests or some such shit. Dammit, none of this shit in this zone has been experience for about fifty levels now. I've been camped here for three solid days, I haven't eaten anything except Hot Pockets and pizza, and I smell funny. I just want the ring, please gimme the ring, I can't deal with this anymore, just fucking POP YOU STUPID CYCLOPS!!! Holy shit, it did. It popped. Oh, my god, in five minutes I can go take a shower and empty the ashtray, I just need to kill it and loot the ring. Wha… it's dead? Who the fuck is looting it? Corandialisteria?!? You fucking whore! I said I was camping the zone, you stupid twat! It's MINE! I said IT WAS MINE, are you deaf, you pusholed bitch! I knew you at level three, wtf happened to you? What? I said you were a twat, and I'll say it again. TWAT TWAT TWAT. What? YOU'RE A MAN???? AAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHHH….

Run, EQ players, run.

Tweetyrants © 2000. Run away! Flee!

http://web.archive.org/web/200302282...weety/run.html

[Messianic]

Originally Posted by Nakara [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

pretty sure saying your analogy is dumb as fuck is refuting it

"Refute: 1. Prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove."

Insults do not a proof make

you should keep throwing around your phrase 'subjective valuations' that your probably just learned in your econ 101 course to try and keep sounding smart though

Keep throwing insults and avoiding any real debate - it makes you smarter. I didn't take Econ 101 btw, I just skipped the compilation texts and read the classics, and listened to seminars/debates. Most econ professors, particularly Keynesian-leaning professors or some supply-siders will argue against subjective valuation since they have statist tendencies, and therefore a supposed "objective" framework from which to start. I doubt its something covered in any detail in Macro, Micro, or the Econ 101 class that has a little of both (at least regionally accredited institutions such as state Universities generally structure the classes that way).

But all of that probably went over your head anyway. I'm happy if it didn't, however, because you'll be able to reply with substance instead of:

"u think ur so smart, keep using your key phrases," and "calling your analogy stupid disproves it."

Cmon, try harder.

I think pointing out the irony of the false analogy is a refutation.

Pointing out the irony of an analogy isn't a refutation, and assuming its a false analogy isn't a refutation. You didn't show why it was false (except for one claim which I will answer more fully below) - you just said one provides a tangible benefit while one doesn't, which is actually subjective and false, given that evidently, people do receive tangible pleasure from playing EQ.

It's ironic that there is a direct parallel between people addicted to online video games and those addicted to sex - again, the circumstance/context is different (and perhaps addiction to sex is more commendable), but the form is the same. Things can be entirely different in one respect but completely the same in others.

I am pretty sure the valuation is "subjective" if it were only readily apparent to one person.

That's not what subjective valuation really means..100% of individuals in the world could "agree" on something, but that wouldn't make it objective. But that's a whole side issue which doesn't need to be dealt with here to continue the argument.

In this case, I am almost positive that having millions and all the sex you want is a pretty tangible benefit. On the flip side, having uber leet gear from many hours spent on your ass tapping keys is not going to get you money or any pussy beyond badjojo.com.

The reality though, is that the efforts of the athlete almost always result in a tangible benefit.

As far as I can see, the above is the only real point you made against the analogy. It's a false premise to say that tangible benefits do not come from EQ. Playing EQ almost always results in a tangible benefit, at least to some people (i.e. pleasure, the basis for all "tangible benefits"), or people would never play it over other alternatives. Do you have sex 24/7? Do you have sex at every single opportunity? If you're honest, you say you don't, since we have lives outside of our genitalia. At times, you value certain things over sex.

Do you pleasure yourself constantly instead of playing EQ, or do it constantly while you play EQ? No? Then, at least at times, you value EQ higher than sexual pleasure. At those times you value EQ more, you play. Why is your position of more sex better than someone else's position of more EQ (although both positions possess different amounts of both) objectively better? If both of you are content with the amounts you have, why should everyone follow your balance?

Since both result in tangible benefits, the analogy stands. As I said before, the scale and circumstance are different, but the form is the same - sacrificing more time, resources, or opportunities than the other guy to receive a greater reward in the same arena - and you don't always get a greater reward, but is almost always the result of putting more time into a competitive endeavor than your competitors.

[mitic]

stop this endless spewing of worthless words and let the sword speak for you

turn the server red, problem solved

[Messianic]

As a preface, Lagaidh, I find you a nice enough person - I just think this topic relates to whether we're using reason (rather than unbridled emotion or subjective determination) in our relationships with other people on the server.

Originally Posted by Lagaidh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, folks in the thread have admitted to blocking folks out, just so the blocking person can remain measurably superior.

I think you missed the point of what I was saying. They wouldn't "block other folks out" unless they got some reward for doing it - their real goal is the better gear and the better encounter. Sacrificing more resources than someone else (i.e. time, attention span, etc) is what they're doing - using the phraseology "blocking folks out" is intentionally chosen to make it seem worse than it is. Again, the gold medalist "blocks out" the silver medalist to remain superior.

Does that make him a jerk, a dick, or "like people who are fascinated by serial killers?" No - it makes them a competitor. You may not come to this game as a competitor - others do. The game is built as a competition unless the people in the game or those who have authority (Nilbog, etc) agree to something else.

That's all there is to it, and it's entirely valid.

Hey if something truly were important on the line, I could understand the vicious competition. I love my EQ, I love the little treasures I've amassed. We all like to measure. I just can't reconcile being a dick to someone for my treasures.

You assume someone who doesn't agree to a rotation instead of competing for content is, by virtue of the act, a dick. That's simply not true.

I guess I sound like a fucking hippy, but there's just no reason to be so mean about one's advancement or position at the top.

You're still not making real points, though - you're just saying that it's "mean" or you're "a dick" if you merely compete at the highest level for content which is meant to be competed for (in the current state of the server).

Maybe what interests me about the topic is the true motivations of a player that leads them to such a state that they willfully, and understandingly will try to prevent other players from experiencing things for their own perceived status.

It intrigues you because you're not looking at it the way it's plainly presented - Competitors are competing for certain content, and some people (non-competitors) say they shouldn't, and they should agree to an organized system so content is distributed differently.

If they don't agree, you can't force them into it unless you have an overwhelming majority to enforce it.

Hopefully, with my style and pace, by the time I'm ready for some Fear or Hate... there will be room for me. That's how it happened in Live for me. I'm a broken record in saying that I was the master of wasting time in EQ. 310 days on Lagaidh Smif the 1st, and I made L70 with a few hundred AAs. Hey, at least I reached the level cap for when I quit, hehe.

Cheers. See you in Norrath.

And that's how it will happen - Casuals eventually experience all the same content as the hardcores if they desire it - just in a different place in time. That's why a rotation can be a good thing, but not if people don't actually want it.