So, just how bad are Wizards pre-60

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by Tuljin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lets address this P99 echo chamber phenomenon and talk about facts -

There's all this talk of different classes doing things "better" and "more efficiently" than the toolset that a Wizard has. This is belief loaded, and many of these classes that are included in this group are considered pariah for groups much like Wizard.

Some facts -

1. The Staff of Temperate Flux is incredibly versatile and probably the best insta-clicky pull item in the game. It is very valuable for picking mobs at the end of their path, picking mobs off a train, spamming and pulling agro off someone that shouldn't be getting it, and also excellent for keeping a nice chain pull going as someone mentioned previously.

If you actually play Everquest and actually play a Wizard (~both~ of which very few people do) instead of just spreadsheet-jockeying the strength of this item becomes very apparent very quickly.

2. Wizard is the only class that has DD single target stun, a bona fide snare, and root in one toolbox. In EQ the physical manipulation and placement of mobs is very important, and these three skills combined with the Flux Staff result in very powerful CC and mob manipulation.

Snare is always useful in dungeons and in fact very important to have in dungeons. It makes the mid-level (and high-level) dungeons much more manageable and provides unique agro kiting opportunities. A snared caster mob stops casting when they flee - which is one of the many ways Wizards reduce and nullify the threat of caster mobs.

What other classes have bona fide snare? Ranger and Druid, both pariah.

3. Fetter is the best root in the game and Wizards get it at 58 just like Enchanters. Its the preferred CC for melee mobs. Its very powerful and sticks every single planar and non-planar mob that isn't MR incredibly effectively.

Also, with clean pulls, AOE mez really isn't necessary. What does everybody on Red do about it?

4. The Thunder Strike line of interrupt nukes is highly underrated and a very powerful tool at all levels. It is even MORE powerful proportionate to total mob HP in old-world zones, and even in Kunark Draught of Jiva makes very short work of Shaman and Wizard mobs in Seb. Coupled with 2 stuns in your spellbar you are valuable ~and doing something that nobody else does/has the resources to do~

5. Wizard has excellent resist gear, and contrary to popular belief it is very useful in dungeons. Wizard can pull caster mobs very well and generate enough agro to park them wherever they want in camp without the melee puller having to worry about catching multiple spells on a pull. Stun and LOS Rooting is a perfectly effective way of splitting many stupid caster splits, and with levels and resists you don't have much to worry about.

6. Evacs were designed for dungeons. We sit in our own filth for hours a day criticizing the flaws of the geniuses that created Everquest 15 years after the fact, but anyone arguing this fact must have access to hallucinogens the likes of which I would be interested in procuring myself.

Everybody who joins this tired ass discussion and contributes with only vitriol is assuming that anywhere you travel to in Norrath there will always be the magic combination of classes that will cover the abilities of the Wizard -without- having to wait around for 2 hours to assemble this dream team.

Let me ask you this - - when is the last time you grouped with somebody that can snare? When is the last time you grouped with somebody that has a DD stun that even used it? (Clerics, im pointing my finger at you - in fact they never cast root either - - ) When is the last time you grouped with -anybody- that casted a single CC spell other than the Enchanter?

Its easy to jockey spreadsheets and imagine a world where all classes are available to group with at all times, dealing damage with the absolute best items in the game. In reality this really isn't the case.

Once-upon-a-time Chardok AOE wasn't a steady RMT money machine like it is today. Once-upon-a-time for a long time Chardok AOE was -very- irregular. How in the world did Wizards hit level 60 back then? Especially when a very active forum contributor even admitted that quadding Kelethin guards at 54 gets barely 1% xp per pull?

The only other option past Ravishing Drolvargs outside KC (which loses steam around 54) is TD Raptors (dangerous and not worth the hassle if you don't have an Epic Cleric Alt parked there, which many of us at this point take for granted 4 years into Kunark) Either that or grouping.

When I was getting my levels in a guild that was already all 60s I had no help getting XP. I was well aware of the fact that posting up /LFG will never get me a group. What did I do instead? Sat at Seb entrance, invited any old scrub sitting there with their thumb up their ass LFG, and make groups of 4 or 5 work ~just to move the god damn XP bar~ Say what you will about Wizard from behind your excel spreadsheet and world of constantly running Chardok AOE, but I'll tell you what - these rag-tag groups that made it down into Chef and Disco camps mid-50s with no trouble and keeping the camps broken up juuuuuuuuuuust fine and killing mobs at a juuuuuuuuuuust fine pace were possibly directly because I took the reins and made the group happen.

Knocking out nasty spells make a Druid healer perfectly fine. Enc or Necro want to charm and haste a pet? No problem, I'll make sure its stunned if it breaks (unlike Clerics) Need to CC caster mobs without an Enc mez? No fucking problem, I will agro, LOS root, and keep the roots stacked. NP

The point is, we can't all wait around for this "perfect group" that everyone talks about and never happens. Fuck, all anybody ever does is duo Monk/Shaman or PLVL these days. Rogues can't do ~a single god damn thing~ to mobs without a tank and a healer. Nobody even wants to group with a Druid, either. Or a Ranger. Just stop it.

I was/am fortunate to have great EQ friends that didn't have a problem playing with me while leveling with me. We actually had a ton of fun. Hows this for a hypothetical group mid 50s - Monk, Druid, Wizard, Necromancer (add an Enc for a 5th) How many of you have ever even played with this group composition? 0. How many of you have successfully shredded the Hole, all Seb camps, and HS with this group? 0. This is just an example of some of the odd groups I've contributed to even make such an odd class combo not only possible, but effective and ~good~ And guess what? At the end of the day we were a group of players/friends who were good enough (and impatient enough) to not want to sit around waiting for this "perfect" group instead of actually moving the fucking XP bar, which at the end of the day is ~always~ faster than sitting around waiting.

Yes, the Druid isn't much weaker than the Wizard at DPS. So what happens when you have BOTH a Druid and Wizard casting some nukes? How about someone with a Flux Staff succesfully single picking Hole mobs without training the entire city and leading the way through the zone safely, making Superior Heal and Group Regen just fine for healing?

How about when you have both a Necromancer and an Enchanter with charmed, hasted, weaponized pets who have absolutely no qualms about doing so because they know theres somebody there who will ~every single time~ make sure their charm break is stunned? How about an Enchanter who doesn't have to worry about his pet AND having to cast an AOE mez on every single hideous train pull that comes into camp because actually the Wizard is pulling, root CCing, and getting casters into camp and killed first? How about the Wizard getting up and keeping the chain pull going while the melees don't have to leave the mobs they are dealing DPS to? This in itself is a contribution to the DPS of the group without ~actually~ dealing DPS. This cannot be quantified on a spreadsheet.

This is also an example of ~a group of good players using the abilities available to them to enhance the effectiveness of their group and the other classes present and also try to have fun playing 3-4 year old content~ Wow, thats a novel concept and approach to P99, isn't it?

By the way, sitting at 50% or 70% mana is complete bullshit. In dungeons I sit around 20%-30% and play catch-up once in a while on melee mobs.

And this is really the point - EQ is a very fun game because of the dungeon design/mob behavior, not because of the limitations of a particular class. Playing the game with odd class combinations with other people is what makes the game ~fun~ and that is when you are really exploring/challenging the content. I have lots of fun on my Wizard and I got him to 60 "the old fashioned way." I learned these zones on Wizard and know them very well, despite how much Wizard "sucks."

I admit "fun" to some people is playing Battlefield 4 between Chardok AOE pulls and even associating with the jackasses that frequent that cesspool. Tomato/tomahto. BTW, are you playing EQ or Battlefield? How are those RMT bans working out for ya?

People think there's some magic difference between "raid" zones and "non-raid" zones and it affects their playstyle/mindset. Really the difference is "bosses" vs "everything else." Trash in raid zones isn't much different from dungeon mobs and they have to be snared, stunned, stopped from gating, stopped from healing, CCed, etc just the same. This talk of other classes being better than a Wizard on a Hate port is bullshit - Wizard is the only class that can drop the necessary DPS with a Sunstrike to stop a Spite Golem from gating with minimal "ohshitohshitohshit" on a portup. Also can stop Liches etc from gating, Clerics from CH, etcetc. I have been responsible single-handedly for saving many "oh shits" on Wizard. This is not much different from your contributions to a "regular" dungeon. Trash in the new planes in Velious won't be much different, either.

TL - DR : Enough spreadsheet jockeying and actually play a wizard. Then join the conversation. Whens the last time ~anybody~ even grouped with a Wizard, let alone a good one? Or a Ranger or a Druid or any of the other classes who "are more efficient at the same things" but actually not at all and you won't even group with them, either?

SeriousManApplaudingInTheather.gif

Absolutely agree 100%. I've always liked and welcomed wizards in my groups because of all you wrote.

I consider spreadsheets irrelevant, because i'm playing EverQuest, not SpreadSheet. Of course if you ONLY look at numbers on a spreadsheet and nothing else, you're going to determine that wizards are sub-par. But that would be like determining the quality of a man by the size of his dick.

I've grouped with all classes, extensively. I leveled my bard to 52, almost 53 exclusively by grouping, never swarmed a day in my life. A well-played, pro wiz contributes way more that just nuke and AFK med, i just love them.

[sox7d]

Rofl @ Tuljin calling me out.

I leveled a wizard 1-50 in p99 classic and 51-60 when kunark was released.

I did every single wizard quest.

I use EVERY tool at my disposal, I am not one to blindly follow dogma. Hell, I'm even going take credit for pioneering and popularizing kelethin as an accepted quad spot 50+. On my ranger, I've CC'd 8-pulls in MM with 2/3rds the group alive while tanking successfully. I squeeze out extra damage with DS as a ranger, more sustainability by opening with swarmcaller, or bind sight for tricky harmonying.

I advocate unconventional groups constantly. In my 40s on my ranger in CoM, I preached that chain pulling in EJ to CoM ent with track was better exp than waiting for a CoM pull every 6 minutes. And am always looking at how I can synergize with LFG classes when I can't find a group to do things such as fear/agro kite.

I don't min-max, I've almost gotten a group featuring my ranger, 3 epic'd rogues and a shaman to execute a coup on me as a leader because I invited an iksar shadowknight because I didn't want to see him sitting on his ass LFG. (Exp was still incredibly shred, for the record.)

On my wizard 50+, I always had all my stuns up, even the lower ones to preserve mana for when only stun was necessary.

But all that being said, no matter how much I tried to utilize all my tools, every single seb/HS group I'd been in struggled in the DPS department even with charmed pets and epic'd rogues. I tried to rationalize a wizard's contribution to groups so hard just like you, but it just didn't add up. I was sick of being in slow groups and feeling the silent resentment of my party toward me while a rogue would call LFG. That's when I started number crunching and decided the intangible utility and benefits of a wizard were just not worth the trade-off in damage.

I hate min-maxing more than anything, but in a group setting wizards are just so fucking below the bar it's not worth it. It's the one hypocrisy I've accepted when it comes to this game.

Not every class needs to excel in groups.

[Tuljin]

Didn't mean to pick on you sir - I was remiss to mention that in my wall of text :-) I had a lot of posts to quote and I picked yours lol

Coming from someone who has leveled a Wizard "the old fashioned way" (there are only a handful of us) your opinion is certainly valid and well-founded.

I just never felt bad in a group because I actually "hold it down" vs. people who play "key" classes and fuck up day in and day out in PUGs. These people don't feel bad ~at all~ they will just post up LFG the next day and find somebody else who will invite them so they can sit, CH, and watch Netflix. A lot of times you can't wait around for an Enchanter and a lot of time and "ghetto cc" moves the bar just fine. You can't always wait around for a Cleric either who effectively is there to bail out mistakes that shouldn't be happening with rez. The vast majority of this server won't venture -anywhere- without a Cleric and its just annoying at this point.

A lot of people never factor in nub mistakes that kill key group members and bring the XP bar to a grinding halt. How about when these mistakes happen repeatedly? What is the group DPS/XP bar movement at that point? Do the seconds used in calculating DPS all of a sudden stop when the Enc died because nobody agroed his broken charm and the rest of the group dies because he was the only person CCing and the Cleric gated out cause things got even remotely dicey? How about those 900-1800+ "seconds?" Do they not count? Can that lost time even be made up in a group of Paladin, 4 rogues, and a Cleric vs any other group moving the bar for the entirety of that duration?

How about that for hypothetical? That is a FAR more common scenario than a Wiz, Dru, or Ranger posted up LFG. Why don't we calculate that into DPS?

[koros]

Originally Posted by sox7d [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rofl @ Tuljin calling me out.

I leveled a wizard 1-50 in p99 classic and 51-60 when kunark was released.

I did every single wizard quest.

I use EVERY tool at my disposal, I am not one to blindly follow dogma. Hell, I'm even going take credit for pioneering and popularizing kelethin as an accepted quad spot 50+. On my ranger, I've CC'd 8-pulls in MM with 2/3rds the group alive while tanking successfully. I squeeze out extra damage with DS as a ranger, more sustainability by opening with swarmcaller, or bind sight for tricky harmonying.

I advocate unconventional groups constantly. In my 40s on my ranger in CoM, I preached that chain pulling in EJ to CoM ent with track was better exp than waiting for a CoM pull every 6 minutes. And am always looking at how I can synergize with LFG classes when I can't find a group to do things such as fear/agro kite.

I don't min-max, I've almost gotten a group featuring my ranger, 3 epic'd rogues and a shaman to execute a coup on me as a leader because I invited an iksar shadowknight because I didn't want to see him sitting on his ass LFG. (Exp was still incredibly shred, for the record.)

On my wizard 50+, I always had all my stuns up, even the lower ones to preserve mana for when only stun was necessary.

But all that being said, no matter how much I tried to utilize all my tools, every single seb/HS group I'd been in struggled in the DPS department even with charmed pets and epic'd rogues. I tried to rationalize a wizard's contribution to groups so hard just like you, but it just didn't add up. I was sick of being in slow groups and feeling the silent resentment of my party toward me while a rogue would call LFG. That's when I started number crunching and decided the intangible utility and benefits of a wizard were just not worth the trade-off in damage.

I hate min-maxing more than anything, but in a group setting wizards are just so fucking below the bar it's not worth it. It's the one hypocrisy I've accepted when it comes to this game.

Not every class needs to excel in groups.

This is true. You'd be better off inviting a non-tanking paladin for all that wizard utility (minus evac) plus better dps and some heals.

[Xiki101]

This wizard love hurts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Tuljin]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is true. You'd be better off inviting a non-tanking paladin for all that wizard utility (minus evac) plus better dps and some heals.

Again, go invite one of the many post-55 Paladins that are currently LFG.

Funny my highest lvl alt is a Paladin, isn't it? And how about a -tanking- Paladin that also provides all that utility? :-)

[sox7d]

Originally Posted by Xiki101 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This wizard love hurts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hero of raid DPS and chardok. Take pride in that.

[Jaxon]

Wizards contribute pretty much nothing to a group. You are literally one of the worst classes at making stuff die and nothing special in the keeping your group from dying department either.

You have the DPS of a shadowknight pet, stuns that break mez, a snare that costs 5 times as much as a druid's and an aggro clicky that the cleric wishes you would stop using because he's tired of healing you. The best wizard I ever grouped with bound outside the dungeon and would leave to port rogue, cleric, monk and enchanter replacements so we could keep the exp flowing.

There's no need to be defensive or feel ashamed about sucking in groups, it's just not what you're good at. Level to 60, get your resist gear and nuke those dragons with pride.

[koros]

Originally Posted by Tuljin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, go invite one of the many post-55 Paladins that are currently LFG.

Funny my highest lvl alt is a Paladin, isn't it? And how about a -tanking- Paladin that also provides all that utility? :-)

My main is a ranger. Don't think I don't feel your plight. Mana regen didn't scale very well with mob hp when they designed eq. All classes need to prevent your group from dying (tank, healer, CC), make mobs die (dps), or help others be better at their job to be useful in a group (buffers). Lucky enchanters get all 3. Wizards get .5 (some combination of preventing death from stuns/evac/root cc and very mediocre dps).

I'd never not invite a wizard, but design unfortunately makes nuking pretty shitty at higher levels in EQ when you're trying to kill a constant stream of high hp mobs.

[sox7d]

>Take clarity from chanters
>Give to wizards

OP class brought on par
UP class brought on par

All they had to do.