Spells: Shaman DoTs Not Stacking Correctly

[Hangerbaby]

I distinctly remember shaman dots not stacking until later in the game. Not only this, but the patch notes from Sept 4, 2002 pretty clearly state that only one instance of a certain spell could afflict a target at a time up until that patch. This includes inferior level spells.

Your spell did not take hold

[Lovely]

My mommy told me that dots did not stack in 1999 (This is about as valid as most posts in here)

[Jotok]

people saying the inferior shaman dots did not stack with the higher lvl version never played a shaman in classic

http://ralloszek.stephans.org/rz/pla...yer_name=Jotok

Lets see when you other non believing shamans played "classic". Put up or shut up.

[Castle]

Originally Posted by DarthPeon

No, but I am getting bored with your creative interpretations of Everquest developer statements, what does or does not constitute a "line", and your slew of inexperienced posts as evidence. At this point you are merely putting spin on my statements and backtracking with implied things such as "Necro dots also stacked toooooo, I really mean it." - After I showed you that they share the same spell ID and the Necro casts of those same spells never stacked.

You're the one with constructive interpretations. I interpret with supporting evidence... you do not. I never claimed Shamans were special, I only referred to them as "Shaman spells" because Shamans are known for their poison/disease (and BST/NEC happen to share some.) You didn't "show" me something I didn't know, pal. Nice straw man. Next.

Originally Posted by DarkPeon

DoT information in regards to when it wore off was simply not reported correctly until less than a month prior to PoP release.

False. Assumptive. -- The "Your XXX Spell Has Worn Off" messages for DoT spells will now go to the right character -- "will now" means it was broken at some point. It doesn't mean it was just added and obviously it does not mean it was always broken, but only at some point before this patch. Very often in patching one thing they broke another and have to re-patch it back in. How many times have you seen a patch where something stopped working and had to be re-patched? Pretty common. You haven't provided a patch-date for when "wore off" was originally put in, only when it was fixed after it broken at some point. I also never said there were DoT tic messages in classic, only when DoTs wore off. Whether or not that is true, still doesn't change the situation and the players abilities to test HP via stacking DoTs. It's a non-deciding factor. Next.

Originally Posted by DarthPeon

And still at this point there was zero information about how much damage a dot did. Good players relied on counting letters in NPC names and similar variations to calculate damage needed prior to information being available.

Once again, I never argued DoT tic messages were shown that early. You could find damage information on websites as people test it and you could look at the spell file, or just watch a mobs HP decrease with 1 versus 2 DoTs on them. Next.

Originally Posted by DarthPeon

The progression of patch notes above details the inexperience of your sources - thus undermining your challenge to the most important patch note outlining the only definitive dot stacking rule we have and specifically stating

(1) I never argued DoT dmg messages were in that early
(2) You provide no patch for when "wore off" messages were added, only when it was patched and fixed because it was broke at some point
(3) Whether or not the "wore off" messages were in doesn't negate my findings. It only makes it more obvious people wouldn't miss it if it was in.
(4) All you've done is put up a bunch of irrelevant or ultimately non-decisive patches followed by your original patch quote which you misinterpret.

In other words. Next.

"Inferior and superior DoTs." The Devs never mention a "line" of spells anyway. They do mention heat blood and boil blood. So what makes a line? Let me ask you some questions if you're so smart pal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do these spells stack?

1. NEC Level 4 Poison Bolt & SHM 49 Envenomed Bolt
2. NEC Level 4 Poison Bolt & SHM 9 Tainted Breath
3. NEC Level 1 Disease Cloud & SHM 34 Scourge
4. SHM Level 5 Sicken & NEC 1 Disease Cloud
5. SHM Level 24 Envenomed Breath & NEC 39 Chilling Embrace

I'll wait for your answers to make my point, brah.

Even by your generous mid 2001 standards, Blart's post is written about classic everquest pvp over 5 months after velious release. Blart attempted to recreate a classic guide about an era few understood how stuff exactly worked. He was certainly not receiving any feedback in response to his dot casts from the server and neither were his opponents. Given the nature of an item loot pvp server, you can deduct that he did not have the luxury to ask for damage parses and critical feedback while he stole some kid's shoes. The man is not infallible and his memory may have failed him.

Bro.. Mid 2001 is 5 months after Velious' release lol. Do math before you throw your bias out there like that [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Once again, you haven't shown when DoT wore off messages were in, only when they got fixed sometime after they were broke. And once again, I never argued DoT messages were in, only wore off messages and as I stated early it doesn't matter, because on mobs you can tell over a number of fights if your DoTs are doing damage or not. Finally on this, it's a non-deciding factor whether or not DoTs stacked.

Lastly, the issue isn't if Blart could tell exactly how much each tic was doing, but if he could discern the difference between 1 DoT versus 2 DoTs. Obviously he would notice a difference of 1 DoT versus 2 DoTs actively on someone. To say otherwise is (1) stupidity or (2) bias. Sure he doesn't get DoT dmg messages, we haven't seen when "wore off" messages were put in exactly so maybe he didn't get a "wore off" message, but he could see the difference between Plague versus Plague + Scourge. His guide archived over various ears remains unchanged in regards to him claiming DoTs stacked. No one reported it to him, but MORE importantly in his years and years of PvP he continued to stack DoTs. In years of PvP he isn't going to notice 1 DoT versus 2 DoTs on a toon and he is one of the best Shamans at the time? *throws a handful of straws at DarthPeon* keep grasping, brah.

You're arguing pointless minutia and missing the major issue here.

Furthermore the quality of the Castersrealm posters that you rely on so heavily as evidence are highlighted in the glorious pvp tactics section of various classes. Go ahead, I urge you to read some of those posts and have a laugh.

Oh I've seen it. I agree wholeheartedly and most of the posts are about "dueling:" bluebie fags need to not comment on red issues from personal experience if they haven't played on red. Wait... aren't necros/druids doing the same thing here in regards to shamans here. Thanks for proving my point.

Originally Posted by Darthpeon

Summary He is NOT saying he is stacking, you're making it up.. QQ... QQ.

Bro it's quite simple. You obviously so want your made up shit to be true you can't read without bias. The common sense reading of what he says is clear. With your logic what he says makes no sense at all. I'll explain it in simple terms for you.

Originally Posted by ClassicShammy

[b]Lure with Scourge (550dmg), VoS(460dmg), EB(220dmg), ROOT, VoS(460dmg) after 42 seconds. Root to keep mob still to get full dmg from dots in.

Clearly it's a step by step strategy. By your logic he didn't root after VoS (1) and either (a) kept running full-knowing the mob takes less damage or (b) let it beat on him? He's given you the full formula here. This means what he really did was he tagged it with Scourge, then VoS, then EB, then rooted. Waited 42 seconds for the 1st VoS to wear off (because you can't stack the same DoT with itself) then cast it again. If you need to wait 42 seconds before you cast VoS(2) because it doesn't stack with Ebreath, why doesn't he say wait 42 seconds to cast Envenomed Breath?

Your logic makes no fucking sense. The most common sense read is he tagged with scourge, VoS, ebreath, rooted, then waited for VoS to wear off to cast again, and kept it rooted til it died. Pretty simple. Matches what he says.

Recap of this Legit Source If he wasn't trying to stack ebreath and VoS

(1)He either (a)let it beat on him between VoS (1) and Ebreath for 42 seconds, or (b)ran (even though he says to root so you don't lose dmg) or (c)put in 2 specific root steps, but decided to leave that one out
AND
(2)He says to wait 42 seconds from Ebreath to VoS(2), but not from VoS(1) to Ebreath???

No. Sense.

Originally Posted by ClassicShammy

I keep just ahead of 5 dorfs at a time. thats roughly a dorf ever 4 mins with almost no down time since i med between dots not fights.

You're not accounting for him running to mobs, running from mobs while landing first spells, or spell casting time. That easily would add another 20-30 seconds and that'd still be "roughly..ever 4 minutes."

Originally Posted by DarthPeon

To summarize, the lack of information in conjunction with the patch dates I posted outlining all dot changes provides ample support upholding the dev post that the dots in question here did not stack.

Naw bro. You got it all backwards.

Real Summary

• Your patch notes beyond the long-ago stated and often-misinterpreted one are irrelevant (DoT dmg messages) or you haven't proven they were after classic (wore off messages), and ultimately both being a non-deciding factor true or not. You don't need DoT dmg messages or even wore off messages to see Ebolt + VoS > Ebolt. It's pretty simple.
• I provide lots of classic posts from CR as well as a classic era Shaman posting their info that remained unchanged for years even though he was open to corretion (a) no one corrected him and (b) he played years seeing DoTs stack so he didn't change it.
• My information is much more detailed and now that I clarified in this thread, beyond sick bias, will not be interpreted other than "DoTs stack, here's how I did it."

Conclusion (thus far)
It's still my wave of ever vindicated various sources with clear statements of DoTs stacking versus one vague patch message that does not clearly address shaman DoTs stacking. If you have no real new evidence to add, I think the verdict is clear: all shaman DoTs stacked in classic.

[Hangerbaby]

FFS. This is project 1999, not project 2001. The classic dot system is pretty well documented as only allowing 1 dot per line to be cast on any one mob.

This was considered a flaw and was subsequently fixed


I can see why people would be upset with its current state, because that's exactly why it was patched in.

[Castle]

FFS. This is project 1999, not project 2001. The classic dot system is pretty well documented as only allowing 1 dot per line to be cast on any one mob.

This was considered a flaw and was subsequently fixed


I can see why people would be upset with its current state, because that's exactly why it was patched in.

1 dot per line with Necros/Druids. Where is this evidence in regards to Shamans? The best source we got so far is the epic-fail-one-star Prima guide? Lol.

It wasn't patched in. It said that for necros (and druid sources confirm for druids) they could only cast 1 dot from each line. 2002 just affirmed this and sources say necros/druids couldn't stack like shamans. They changed it so you could stack 2 of the exact same DoT from 2 different classes in 2002.

BTW though the posts say 2001 they all say Jan of 2001 because that's when CR reformated DB and the dates got reset, all the other info stayed. This means every post at the latest was Jan 28 2001. Bam.

[Treats]

WHY EB TILL 49???, By Nuuk warchyld (the sacred) rodcet nife (1/28/2001)

Mobs that are level 35 or so like, Dorfs, Ein, Guards etc.. have roughly 1700 hit points. Therefore after level 39 (Venom of Snake) an efficient mana way of killing these mobs is as follows: Lure with Scourge (550dmg), VoS(460dmg), EB(220dmg), ROOT, VoS(460dmg) after 42 seconds. Root to keep mob still to get full dmg from dots in. With out EB you would come up short about 150 dmg therefore having to waste mana on a blast that could get resisted or VoS which takes more mana than EB. With this series of spells you can get right till level 48 killing those mobs with minimal mana loss and downtime. and dont forget to med while waiting for mobs to die. I have used this method on dorfs and lose only 1 bubble of mana per mob i kill. I keep just ahead of 5 dorfs at a time. thats roughly a dorf ever 4 mins with almost no down time since i med between dots not fights. Try it it works great!

He meditates BETWEEN Dots NOT fights. If he were able to stack the Dots each dwarf would die in approximately 21 ticks (2 minutes 6 seconds) from Scourge. He then would be sitting there for another TWO MINUTES meditating which he clearly states he does not do.

Scourge - 170 Mana (21 Ticks)
VoS - 160 Mana (7 Ticks)
Envenomed Breath - 100 Mana (7 Ticks)
Root - 30 Mana
VoS - 160 Mana (7 Ticks)

[skorge]

shrug maybe i was wrong in my last post...lol it has been over 10 years....easy to forget. Anyways I just found this on Shaman's Crucibile (the best site for shaman info). This is straight from a Mod there too (his response is in bold):

Ravenwing wrote:
Quote:
You are correct that DoTs from the same line don't stack, but this didn't apply to shaman DoTs in EQClassic. I played a shaman in classic and you can ask any other shaman who played: all of our DoTs stacked except you can't double up on the exact same DoT. That was one of the things that made them so amazing was the fact that all their DoTs stacked. That was apparently changed later at some point for "balance." I remember stacking Ebolt with VoS AND Envenomed Breath. Apparently you can't do that these days. Probably got tossed in with the 2002 patch that allowed the same DoT from different classes to stack, and they did this to balance things out. It seems to fit into that update since they changed how stuff stacks and had just made DoTs much more powerful, especially in raid situations.

I think you have it reversed. As of the dot stacking patch, multiple dots from the same line still didn't stack:

Quote:
2002/09/04: After today the same DoT spell cast by different casters can affect the same target at the same time. Also, if you cast a DoT spell on a target and you already have that spell active on it, the spell will refresh. (Note: It will not be possible to stack Lifeburn).

This does not allow for inferior spells to stack along with superior spells. (Example: Two Necromancers can both land Boil Blood on the same target. However, Heat Blood, being an inferior spell, will still not stack.)


Currently on live, you *can* stack multiple dots of the same type, including the shaman/necro poison line. Originally, it wasn't possible. The ability to stack Bane with EB wasn't nerfed; it was added in post-classic.



I played from a shaman 1999-2001 and could stack my all low level and high level poison/disease dots. FYI

Source: http://www.eqclassic.org/forums/view...t=312&start=25

MORE RESEARCH BELOW:

Quote:
Currently on live, you *can* stack multiple dots of the same type, including the shaman/necro poison line. Originally, it wasn't possible. The ability to stack Bane with EB wasn't nerfed; it was added in post-classic.
Actually, the opposite is true. Originally shamans could stack all of the following DoTs on one mob: Sicken, Affliction, Scourge, Plague, Pox of Bertoxxulous, Tainted Breath, Envenomed Breath, Venom of the Snake, Envenomed Bolt, and Bane of Nife.

Source: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/stacking.htm ... ource=Live

Spell: Envenomed Breath (shaman - 24)
Does not currently stack with...
Tainted Breath - Shaman - 9
Venom of the Snake - Shaman 39
Evenombed Bolt - Shaman 49
Bane of Nife - Shaman 56

Spell: Pox of Bertoxxulous
Does not currently stack with...
Sicken - Shaman - 5
Affliction - Shaman - 19
Scourge- Shaman - 34
Plague - Shaman 49

It was nerfed somewhere along the line after Velious. I think the facts I have given in my previous post and my interpretation of where the nerf came from is the most probable story. They allowed the same DoT to be stacked by any number of characters, and they had focus effects of burning/extended affliction, so they made Shamans like other classes with "lines" of spells and only one spell "per line" stacks.

[Dfn]

And the evidence continues to pour in for Shamans... Are you haters still hanging on to one vaguely written patch note that doesn't even mention Shaman?

[Castle]

I think I forgot one
http://web.archive.org/web/200107240...ll.asp?Id=1141
Speaking on Scourge - 34 dis

PULLING, By Mack (1/28/2001)

Pull with this spell. Then if they're right, turn around and smack em with affliction. By the time you get back to your party poison him. There you just got 3 dots on em that will do just below 1000 damage 1 1/2 min. not bad at all...This spell kicks butt.

And here comes the knock out punch.... the CastersRealm spell description itself of Scourge!
http://web.archive.org/web/200107240...ll.asp?Id=1141

Also, all of the Shaman DoT's stack with each other and other's DoTs. Scourge and Affliction for example stack as well as the Poison DoT's. Stacking DoT's is a great way to do some massive damage

Can I get a what-what my African American kinsmen?