Quick question regarding necro race

[Razaz]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the Iksar racial amounts to one extra cast of the highest level of your Darkness line (about) every 5 minutes at level 60.

Your math may be right but it's missing the big picture. It's about spending your mana efficiently. Being an iksar means you cast less lifetaps/leeches which are your least mana efficient lines, allowing you to use your mana on more powerful spells.

End of the day, Iksar wins the min/max numbers game. If you don't like the Iksar lore, city, aesthetics, or whatever, then play something else. You will still be able to do everything an Iksar can, but you will always be at a slight disadvantage.

[Troxx]

The numbers in your post are out of whack.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's some math to help you decide. The HP to mana ratio for Arch Lich is 0.646. An Iksar sitting gets 12 hp a tick, or 2 per second, which translates to 1.292 mana per second.

Devouring Darkness costs 400 mana. In 310 seconds, or about every 5 minutes, an Iksar gets to cast an extra Devouring Darkness. If you can live knowing that you will be able to cast one less Devouring Darkness every five minutes as a dark elf, you absolutely should keep your current character; otherwise reroll.

Arch lich is 1:1 (20 lost 20 gained)
Demi Lich is 1:0.646 (48 lost 31 gained)
A sitting iksar gets 18 (not 12)

Regardless, you're thinking about this the wrong way.

Standing at 60 in Demi lich a non-iksar loses 44 hp a tick. Iksar loses 36. Non iksar will lose health and need to vexing in 2.27 minutes. Iksar in 2.78 mins.

Sitting at 60 in Demi lich a non-iksar loses 41 hp a tick. Iksar loses 30. Non iksar will lose health and need to vexing in 2.43 minutes. Iksar in 3.33 mins.

Standing at 60 in ARCH lich a non-iksar loses 16 hp a tick. Iksar loses 8. Non iksar will lose health and need to vexing in 6.25 minutes. Iksar in 12.5 mins.

Sitting at 60 in ARCH lich a non-iksar loses 13 hp a tick. Iksar loses 2. Non iksar will lose health and need to vexing in 7.69 minutes. Iksar in 50 mins.


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Standing at 51 in Lich a non-iksar loses 20 hp a tick. Iksar loses 16. Non iksar will lose health and need to bond of death in 3.6 minutes. Iksar in 4.5 mins.

Sitting at 51 in Lich a non-iksar loses 17 hp a tick. Iksar loses 10. Non iksar will lose health and need to bond of death in 4.23 minutes. Iksar in 7.2 mins.

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Standing at 56 in Lich a non-iksar loses 19 hp a tick. Iksar loses 12. Non iksar will lose health and need to bond of death in 3.79 minutes. Iksar in 7.2 mins.

Sitting at 56 in Lich a non-iksar loses 16 hp a tick. Iksar loses 6. Non iksar will lose health and need to bond of death in 4.5 minutes. Iksar in 12 mins.


Recap for sitting:

At 60 in Demi lich non iksar has to tap 37% more often.
At 60 in Arch lich non iksar has to tap 650% more often.
At 56 in Lich non iksar has to tap 267% more often.
At 51 in Lich non iksar has to tap 170% more often.

As has been mentioned multiple times, none of this is so game breaking that a non iksar necromancer can't function ... but the difference is quite huge.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Razaz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

End of the day, Iksar wins the min/max numbers game. If you don't like the Iksar lore, city, aesthetics, or whatever, then play something else. You will still be able to do everything an Iksar can, but you will always be at a slight disadvantage.

Yes: we've already established that Iksar is superior. Anyone who only cares about min/max could have stopped reading this thread five pages ago.

I'm trying to establish how much they win, ie. how much of a slight disadvantage non-Iksar have. Because to some people min/max isn't the only factor, and if you want to compare the min/max benefits against other factors you need some basis to do so.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A sitting iksar gets 18 (not 12)

Yes, but non-Iksar get 6, so Iksar are only net 12 better.

Also, I'm not sure that wall of text is going to be helpful for the purpose it's trying to serve. I doubt OP is going to read all of the above and then meaningfully compare it to "how much of a pain will it be to redo levels 1-12?" or "how much cooler do dark elves look?" ... because the human brain just doesn't work that way, especially when it has to compare very disparate things.

But it can make simple comparisons like "is looking like a dark elf cool enough to be worth giving up an extra darkness/5 min at 60?"

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, but non-Iksar get 6, so Iksar are only net 12 better.

Non-iksars get 7 ... so iksars are only net 11 better.

Sitting at 60 in Demi lich a non-iksar loses 41 hp a tick. Iksar loses 30. Non iksar will lose health and need to vexing in 2.43 minutes. Iksar in 3.33 mins.

Over 20 minutes a non-iksar will have to vexing 8.23 times - 4073 mana
Over 20 minutes an iksar will have to vexing 6 times - 2970 mana

That's 1103 mana over 20 minutes - 2.12 minutes (10% more of your time) dedicated solely to healing yourself.

This doesn't seem like a lot, but this is also best case scenario. Your taps do damage - yes - but it is not uncommon that much of that damage (and the resultant healing) does not get utilized. Hunting in dangerous places it is not advisable to let yourself end up 1k health in the hole (unless you have raid gear). That potential damage can also frequently get lost with the mob dying before the damage has had a chance to be fully applied. In a realistic scenario you are getting far less than a 1:2 ratio (for both healing and damage output) from the highest level and most efficient spells in the lifetap line.

It adds up monumentally.

Sitting at 56 in Lich a non-iksar loses 16 hp a tick. Iksar loses 6. Non iksar will lose health and need to bond of death in 4.5 minutes. Iksar in 12 mins.

Over 20 minutes a non-iksar will have to bond of death 4.44 times - 1600 mana
Over 20 minutes an iksar will have to bond of death 1.66 times - 600 mana

At 56 that is 1000 mana difference over 20 minutes - 2.5 extra minutes of meditating in lich form just to make up the difference (12.5% of your time).

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Non-iksars get 7 ... so iksars are only net 11 better.

Was going by the table here:

http://wiki.project1999.com/Shaman


It may well be incorrect (it's a wiki ..)

[Troxx]

Yeah that's wrong. Non-iksar get a 1hp/tick bump at level 60 to 4/7.

Sesserdrix's Guide goes into great detail on this topic in the "choosing your race" section.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Sesserdr...Strategy_Guide

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah that's wrong. Non-iksar get a 1hp/tick bump at level 60 to 4/7.

Sesserdrix's Guide goes into great detail on this topic in the "choosing your race" section.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Sesserdr...Strategy_Guide

Well I'm too lazy to redo my math, so I'll leave that exercise up to someone else [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. Suffice it to say that being an Iksar gives you an extra darkness spell about once ever 5.5 minutes.

[GinnasP99]

The question you should ask yourself is, do you want to look this badass

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[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You clearly have never pvp'd with any form of skill.

Perhaps I should have clarified that regen specifically for a Necromancer isn't a huge deal in PvP. Regen is obviously enormous for melees who have no other way of sustaining themselves in a fight. But Necros don't need regen to sustain, they have lifetaps for that. And the Erudite mana advantage in Kunark/low end Velious gear allows them multiple extra casts of Deflux or an entire extra cast of Vexing Mordania. If you do the math, a fight has to last something like 15 minutes in order for the Iksar regen to overcome the Erudite mana advantage. Needless to say, the vast majority of PvP encounters do not last anywhere close to 15 minutes (and the exceptions are big group fights where entirely different tactics apply anyway).

The main point to keep in mind is that Iksar INT is really, really abysmal while wearing resist gear until you get into high-end Velious stuff. Regen in no way compensates for this glaring mana disparity in PvP fights that are usually decided in under 5 minutes. It's not a question of skill or tactics in this case, it's just math. Iksar are bad PvP Necros for the same reason they're good PvE Necros: they sacrifice INT for regen. On a PvE timeline this is a good bargain: regen comes out ahead in the long run. But the opposite holds true in PvP: if you're a cloth wearer, it's all about burst damage, and you need all the INT/mana you can get to ensure you have a deep enough mana pool to burst people down. Regen doesn't win PvP fights for casting classes; having enough mana to kill the other guy quickly while keeping yourself alive does.

[Izmael]

I PvP'd a shit ton on a necro and I can't remember a single time when racial regen played any kind of role. I remember a lot of times where mana pool did play a role, though.