Patch Notes: Monday, September 5th, 2016

[countytime]

I'm gonna quote myself here like a douchebag:

Originally Posted by countytime [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On live, AE groups were nerfed by reducing how many could have aggro on you at a time (to ~25, I think). That was a better solution, because those extra mobs would wander away, then come back and kill you when you were OOM. It wasn't just that you couldn't kill 25+ mobs; it was that you couldn't control 25+ mobs, something that's much more important.

In the current scenario on P99, a bard gathers every mob in a zone, then kills 25 of them, but the rest of the mobs are still under his control. So he kills the next 25. Etc, etc. The only thing that changes is the speed of the killing.

So the live solution was better, and I think they should revert the change and do that instead.

Just to clarify, the extra mobs didn't forget about you on Live; it was like you feign death'd, then got back up and they remembered you. (Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I remember it working.)

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by getoffmylawn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I could go into crazy detail on that again, but eh whatever, too early in the day to argue.

What I will say is, why did the original developers put spells into the game that are able to hit every mob in an area around you (mainly if you are a bard, wizard, enchanter, whatever)? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think they had in mind that players would do different exciting things with those tools instead of boring single pulls all the time. You can enjoy the game by playing one of those classes too ya know? I've put up with bard kites before and never once complained about it. Why all of a sudden are bards "ruining EQ"?/? wtf is happening?

I can't speak for the developers as to a why, but in game design balance is the first concern. A spell that damages every mob in the area is balanced by the fact that every mob in the area will now attack you. If the mobs can't hit you, you remove the balance and you enter the realm of exploit.

You don't have to search hard on these boards for people complaining about bards ruining this game, and it is not a "all of a sudden" complaint. It goes back years and years. Just because you'll put up with it, doesn't mean others want to.

[brecon]

Originally Posted by getoffmylawn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I could go into crazy detail on that again, but eh whatever, too early in the day to argue.

What I will say is, why did the original developers put spells into the game that are able to hit every mob in an area around you (mainly if you are a bard, wizard, enchanter, whatever)? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think they had in mind that players would do different exciting things with those tools instead of boring single pulls all the time. You can enjoy the game by playing one of those classes too ya know? I've put up with bard kites before and never once complained about it. Why all of a sudden are bards "ruining EQ"?/? wtf is happening?

Bard AoE was nerfed eventually because the exploit was figured out. Next.

[stormlord]

I'll say I think this belongs in the "not classic, but acceptable improvement" category. The probelm with these though is they're like mudflation. The more you add, the less like classic it becomes. The more like live it becomes. Everytime they made a change on live, it was always to "correct" something and inevitably that's what made it non-classic. Some of us didn't like that.

But I agree with the change. I've always hated AE groups. I was something like a level 75 or 80 ranger on live and they were do Earthshaker pulls and I wanted to vomit. It's so against the spirit of the game and so boring I can't contemplate WHY. Yes I know camping can be bad sometimes, depending on the situation, especially camping spawns alone, but at least you're doing something. In the best experience groups you're busy the whole time. In AE groups you just sit and chat. That's it. For me, Everquest was about the journey and about the "pulling" and "assisting" and "add!" and "need heal" and "run!" and so on. I guess some of you think tha'ts a treadmill, but I loved it.

I'll say I don't ever remember seeing bard pulls or AEing when I was playing Everquest in 1999. But when I played on project1999 in 2010 I do remember ocassionally seeing someone clearing Blackburrow or kiting everything in West Karana.

Oh and one last thing. What about Fear? Killing the zone was a tactic, wasn't it?

EDIT: There was a lot of adversity in Everquest. Whether it be trains, ninja stealing, corpse runs, scamming, or whatever. I'd include swarm kiters in the same category. You go somewhere and someone is swarm kiting it, so you have to find somewhere else. It's an inconvenience. They might mistakenly take your spawns. And yet that was part of the experience. I can't say I'd play if that was the ONLY part. But being able to fail or meet with a negative outcome is a special thing in MMO's, since so many try to remove it. I don't think it's necessarily a good thing. For me, it's hard to appreciate overcoming when there's no hurt or failure. Ok so you get a slap on the wrist every now and then in a very controlled way. That's no fun to me. I'm still that way. I need some adversity in MMO's to get attached to them.

[getoffmylawn]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can't speak for the developers as to a why, but in game design balance is the first concern. A spell that damages every mob in the area is balanced by the fact that every mob in the area will now attack you. If the mobs can't hit you, you remove the balance and you enter the realm of exploit.

You don't have to search hard on these boards for people complaining about bards ruining this game, and it is not a "all of a sudden" complaint. It goes back years and years. Just because you'll put up with it, doesn't mean others want to.

Bard AoE was nerfed eventually because the exploit was figured out. Next.

The worst thing about this patch is that it effects more than just bards. So basically a game design change was made to fix one class, but in order to that, they what? killed off aoe grps in the process?

[getoffmylawn]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the mobs can't hit you, you remove the balance and you enter the realm of exploit..

Calling kiting an exploit. Sorry, but you're very ignorant.

[getoffmylawn]

Originally Posted by stormlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But I agree with the change. I've always hated AE groups. I was something like a level 75 or 80 ranger on live and they were do Earthshaker pulls and I wanted to vomit. It's so against the spirit of the game and so boring I can't contemplate WHY. Yes I know camping can be bad sometimes, depending on the situation, especially camping spawns alone, but at least you're doing something. In the best experience groups you're busy the whole time. In AE groups you just sit and chat. That's it. For me, Everquest was about the journey and about the "pulling" and "assisting" and "add!" and "need heal" and "run!" and so on. I guess some of you think tha'ts a treadmill, but I loved it.

Totally understandable. This is the problem with this change though. Its a change on an unpopular class (unpopular in that other people hate lvling in the same zone as that class) so no one's going to fight for this class to stay classic.

While everyone knows, before this patch, is how it's been forever, and in my opinion, how it should stay, everyone will turn the other cheek because it makes the leveling "in open field experience" with their classes easier. This is close to the equivalent of letting necros and mages keep their pet buffs. Necros and mages could still kill solo without their pet buffs, it just wouldn't be as fast. That would also be a HUGE change to game mechanics, like this change. (edited this paragraph: this change makes it longer for bards to kill, and also keeps mobs away from other players longer. the change doesnt give more players to mobs. The change makes it so that bards will have more mobs in their swarm/stack of mobs longer because they can only hit 25 at a time now, instead of their entire swarm)

I'm guessing the people making these changes hate bards too [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] They've done SOO well keeping every little thing classic up until this change. The players don't really care about the change because it makes things easier for them, so why the hell would anyone say anything bad about it? if biases didn't exist, the community would hate this change.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by getoffmylawn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Calling kiting an exploit. Sorry, but you're very ignorant.

I give up. You're right, I agree with you 100% and we have no need to argue any longer. I see that I was wrong now. A level 2 bard strafe kiting every single mob in a noob yard, with no risk to himself and AEing them all down at once is not exploiting game mechanics. A bard with Selos kiting every mob in a zone and AEing them down all at once using mob pathing to stay out of their attack cones is not an exploit, but an intended feature of the game.

Further it is plain to me that this is exactly as the original devs imagined their game being played and come to think of it, all of my recollections of playing EverQuest 1999 to the present day include a bard AEing a train in every outdoor zone. I don't know how I forgot about it. I even remember how fun it was every time I encountered a kiting bard and how it didn't affect the game play for myself or others in the same zone as it in any but positive ways.

This patch is ridiculous and should be undone immediately. In protest I will join my bard friends and kite mobs incessantly to show the devs here that this patch has only made it worse for everyone on the server since it will take bards 4 times as long to kill all of the mobs in a zone.

[getoffmylawn]

Before this patch:

you just zoned into your favorite hunting zone. there are 100 mobs in zone. Big bad Bard comes and takes 75 of your 100 mobs.

Bard takes those mobs to his favourite kiting spot and dots them down.

5 mins later, those mobs start to respawn, enabling you and whoever else to start tagging them back to your soloing spot.

Now, after patch:

You just zoned into your favorite hunting zone. there are 100 mobs in zone. Big bad Bard comes and takes 75 of your 100 mobs.

Bard takes those mobs to his favourite kiting spot and dots them down.

5 mins later 25 mobs in his stack are dead but 50 remain, that still aren't respawning for rest in zone. Another 5 mins later 25 more die, leaving the remaining 25 mobs still chasing him around, unable to respawn for the rest of the players due to recent patch. 5 mins after that, the rest of his stack dies.

effectively, this patch added on 10-20 mins that people may have to wait for things to start respawning. While the change nerfs a lot of things with a lot of collateral nerfing damage in the process, it doesn't help anyone in any way. If anything, it makes things worse for everyone including those this patch was intended to help.

[getoffmylawn]

A level 2 bard strafe kiting every single mob in a noob yard, with no risk to himself and AEing them all down at once is not exploiting game mechanics

lol

You do realize the risks involved with kiting right? especially more so with a noob with no gear? Give me a break.. player who has never played a bard confirmed.

maybe the exploit you speak of, that EVERY class uses, should be fixed instead of nerfing entire sets of classes and spells?

Also, just to add, I've never ONCE used that exploit you mentioned to kite a swarm of mobs. The pile of corpses in FV, and OT I've left behind are proof of that and you can ask anyone on the server who has seen them. I don't exploit anyhting to swarm kite. Never will, never have.