Game Mechanics: Pets don't hold hate like they should: Copious amounts of EVIDENCE

[baalzy]

Decided to make this a new thread to draw attention to the insane amount of research I just did. We all know that pet taunt is weak on p99. We've all seen 1 spell casts taking our pets 5-6 rounds of attacks just to pull hate off us. Here is a giant list from casterrealms strategy guides which all backup what many of us remember. The simple fact that pets were hate monsters and it actually took some effort to get hate OFF of your pet.

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20010911123114/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=4838

You can solo some yellows and below now, and I personally used the following spell combination.

1. Clinging Darkness (If it resists just move on).
2. Poison Bolt. (If Both CD and PB resist start running, and kiss your pet goodbye!)
3. Send in the pet.
4. Keep an eye on your pets health, when its down to 40% start meleeing yourself. This takes the pressure of your pet for a bit. (Cloth armour helps here if you can afford it)
5. Once you’re down to 50% health, the mob should be just about dead, stand back, let your pet tank, and start chain casting Lifespike.
6. Retreat to the Windmills and start meditating!

With this method I have been able to solo yellows.

More evidence of pets holding agro like a boss, EVEN at low levels
March, 2001

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20020507072017/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=4429

24 - 29: you can head to an Outter PAW Spire group. Or you could do what I did and SOLO! .. Thats right .. head back to highkeep and right next to that guard room there is a small room where 2 Lookout spawns pop. EASY Soloing and GREAT Lewt! You may need help breaking this spawn .. so just ask the group next to you. They spawn on a 5 min count which is just enough to med to full and have the pet healed. Or you could just get a Breeze/ Clarity / C2 and it will be a sinch. This was the best exp I have ever seen in the game. It averaged to One bubble every 30 minutes and at lvl 24!! .. amazing .. simply amazing.

If you're using mana and have to med & keeping the same pet, that pet sure as heck better be keeping some agro.

Jan 2001

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20020520194948/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=3166

Your level 44 pets will tear these mobs up pretty fast, can almost solo them in fact, and your nice new level 44 nuke will drop them so much faster. These will be blue until level 47 or 48, which you'll be in no time. There are also often enchanters in the zone you could get Clarity from if you want it.
....
I can't recommend this at 43 or below, as your best nukes are fire based, and these kobolds are extremely fire resistant. Even with Malise, they rarely hit for full damage, more often being almost completely resisted. Between your 39th level pets and your most efficient non-fire based nuke (level 24 shock spell), you just don't yet have the firepower to efficiently take down these kobolds solo. It's possible, but downtime is significantly worse.

So, you're having to rely on your nukes & you're using a fire pet so you're also not relying on Snare and yet he makes NO mention of watching out because you'll get roflstomped by a 100 dmg nuke tearing agro away from your pet. He's even talking about using Malise!

March, 2000

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20020507071432/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=3125

If you are solo down there, you can break one or two corner spawns and solo the gobs as they pop. To break a spawn, let yer pet tank both with a barrier of combustion on, and finish the first gob with one blast, and burn the other one down then as usual. Swim thru your pet if one gob should aggro on ya too early to stick it on pet again. You might even have to heal your pet, mine got near death a lot while breaking the spawn... grouping is safer for sure. Don't expect to outswim the gobs.. they are faster than a sowed lvl 41 druid with 100ish swimming.

This seems to imply to me that using high damage nukes still doesn't cause agro to get transfered on to you very often and it ALSO makes it seem like the agro doesn't stay on ya long. Talking about healing their pet too to keep from using it. This seriously implies the mages are nuking (and not having much of an agro problem) mobs down fast enough that pet-chaining isn't required.

March 2000

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20020507070746/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=2944

Tuck youself into this corner, park your pet and pull to the pet.

At this level people would have to pet chain on p99 because they couldn't reliably nuke mobs to kill them before losing their pets.

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20010911112442/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=5415

Make sure you hit the snake with a couple of Shock of Blades so you get more then 50 percent of the damage for the maximum amount of experience. Your water pet has a very high poison resistance so it "should not" get poisoned. Monitor your pets health using /pet health report command, and heal it if required. Once the snake is dead the loot will be any of the following:

level 8 and talking about nuking more than 50% of the mobs health away and having to monitor their pets health because the snake is still hitting it.
May 2001

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20010911120149/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=3766

Dive in and start attacking the Pirana. Let you r pet tank while you nuke it, remember you cant attack it out of the water so you have to stay under. Be sure to keep an eye on your H2O bar. If things get out of hand, A.k.a you stary loosing, get out of the water! The pirana cant follow (duh) now you can rest up and try again. Just keep doing this for the whole lake, by the time your done with all six, the first one should have respawn for you to kill again!

More talk from a low level of pet tanking the mage nukes it.

November 2000

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20010911121854/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=3306

First make a earth pet which will help with the root and such then buff your pet with burnout, use when you have full mana pull her with the level 8 bolt spell and put your pet on her, then keep nuking her with the bolt spell . You may have to take some hits when she cons red because she will hit for the high 30's constantly which will take your pet out easy.

Nuking but talking about having to get in and take some hits to keep the pet from getting killed. This either supports the pet holding great agro, or the earth pet reliably & consistently rooting.

March 2000

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20010911123221/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=2718

This is simple, at lvl 8, dervs are mostly red with some yellow ones once and a while. Just get an earth pet (for the hp's, youll need them) then back up, fire bolt them, usually you can just back up and get 3 off before it even gets to you, then have it hit you once then your pet will jump in. Then you just sit back and blast with bolt or blades.

3 bolts before putting pet on it then being able to back up and continue to bolt/blade? At level 8!
March 2000

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20010911124520/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=924

cast both burnout and flame shield on your pet, and pull an orc. sit back and nuke his ass, and he will drop within 20 seconds, doesn't matter if he cons yellow or not. if you happen to accidently pull another orc and have low mana, use it up nuking it and then run in and melee while pet regains hp. this orc will also die if you don't screw up completely-don't underestimate your pet.

Nuke the mobs ass off (He's talking about using the Water pet for this, so no root) and then run up to melee so your pet can regain hp.

March 2000

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20010911115249/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=854

I find that the water pet(highly under-rated imho) works great in this respect. Unlike fire that has no hp, but big dmg, water has decent hp(second to earth), and does more dmg than earth by alot because of it's spell. Using the water elemental I can take yellow cons with 50% mana. I usually pull, then send pet, then burn down to 20% or so, and start medding. Keep an eye on the pets health though, and if it starts to get whipped on, stand and throw a burn as needed. I normally start fights with 50%, and end with 20 or more, unless the fight goes bad, and I have to burn extra to keep the pet alive.

Burn the skeleton down to 20% and let your pet finish it off while you're sitting and medding. Using the water pet, so no root.
March 2000

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20010911122538/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=753

For all you lvl 8 Magicians out there an easy way to get from 8-12 is hunt the Drakes/Earth Eles/Harpies/Rogue Clockworks out in front of the Mino Caves... don't worry about grouping since us Magicians have pets we can do it easily, what you do it use your bolt spell to pull, maybe hit it once or twice as it comes to you, then send your pet and stand back and blast. You might want to make sure you have a good pet (White con or Yellow con at 8.) Great Experience, also useful with Enchanter and Necromancer. Happy Hunting.

I'm really seeing a trend here. Nuke happy mage still = not pulling hate off their pet. Even chain-nuking a mob as it runs up to you and their pets are pulling hate right off them.
March 2000

[baalzy]

Reposting the evidence which kicked this all off from the other thread that started here:
http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=105069

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20010911162920/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=3684

So here's how I beat up on the yellows and reds while soloing after level 12. Self buff everything you have. Shielding, siphon str, grim aura, vampiric embrace. At 16 add spirit armor and banshee aura. Now lead with life leech and let the mob hit you instead of your pet! Even with leach the mob is gonna beat you down, but no worries, cause you haven't loaded on the dots, meaning the mob will aggro your pet when you step back and start using your near full tank of mana. Step back, and let your fully healthy pet take a few whacks from the mob that's now down to half or 2/3. Lifetap a couple times and step back in there. When the mob is down to where your pet can handle it, back off and med up for the next one.

This isn't possible here. This guy is talking about using life leach & meleeing a yellow/red mob and instantly being able to lose agro to your pet by stepping out of range. March 2000.

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20010911152758/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=4876

RM. HG's are pathetic exp I think. But me at 42 and my 42 Mage made 1K last night there in about 4 hours, so money is hard to beat. Go to where the Giants spawn and camp on the side of the valley directly across from where the Guards in the tower are. When doing HG's an Ench or Mage is wonderful because of Malise/Tash (like we need slow Clarity). Pull the MOB's to you (best I've found is to have the other caster pull with Tash/Malise). Then you get a MOB that has lowered MR, yet the pets can taunt it off easy. Target the MOB and do a /pet attack as soon as you see it. Continue to sit and med. When your pet goes after it, it is within Darkness range. Dark and Fear it. It will go back towards the hill, then across the hill to your right. I generally will cast VoS on it, then go babysit the pets, moving/sitting/moving. If Fear wears off it is now so mad at the pet(s) hitting it that it will go after them as long as you are not too close. Refear. The worst things I've found is that if you cast Fear more then twice, you'd better nuke or the pets seem to take all the exp. You still get the loot though. And since you know exactly where he is going you can get ahead of him and sit and med while he is getting kicked to death by the pets.

Tash a mob and have a pet pull it off easily.
March 2001

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20020428201203/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=4591

-ATTACK STRATEGY-

Find a victim, engulf darkness if it fails, pull it to pet and sick the pet on it. Back up and recast until it sticks. From here cast Heat Blood, Heart Flutter, and if you want, Disease Cloud. By this time the giant will hate you and start chasing you... run the giant around the outer wall (but not to close to the nearby hut, for a giant spawns in there) and once you get to the road follow the road to the outer door and then follow the wall up and around again. make sure you have your pet taunt off by typing /taunt. If it does stop to attack your pet, SoP it and it will start chasing you again.

This is more what I remember. Pets grabbed snap agro easily. If I had a string of darkness/fear resists it often became difficult to get the mob off my pet before my pet died.

Feb. 2001

Think I might look into Enchanter/Shaman guides too.

[Potus]

Please allow this Classic evidence from Mage's Compendium as well.

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20030419075047/http://pub102.ezboard.com/fthemagicianstowerthelibrary.showMessage?topicID=6 .topic

a) park your pet in a safe spot.
b) pull to the pet, so that the mob stops on TOP of your pet.

If you can pull with a DD spell from where you stand, be sure to have the pet right in front of you when the mob is incoming.

If you run to the mob, and pull with a spell, running back, be sure to run THROUGH pet, and stop right behind it.

This is a guide (9/28/00) that shows how Mage Pets can actually tank for groups with melee classes.

It shows two things: Pets have snap aggro, as the Mage can pull with a DD and have the pet instantly taunt it off, and two, that Mage Pets have such fantastic aggro that PCs can beat up on a mob and the mob will concentrate on ol' Jabober instead.

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20030419074415/http://pub102.ezboard.com/fthemagicianstowerthelibrary.showMessage?topicID=1 2.topic

SHAMANS
Again pets are tanks, so you can buff them and heal them.

CLERICS
Pets are mini-tanks basically.
If the pet is acting as a main tank, treat it as a tpical tank, healing and buffing. Pets have enormous amounts of hit points at high level though (2000+ from the 51 level and higher spells). but they also regen fast.

ENCHANTERS
Alternatively just let the pet deal with the mob ,you don't have to mez every mob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] The pet can tank quite well saving you mana and aggro

WIZARDS
With the pet to taunt off, or better still Root, a wizzy can have fun nuking!

DRUIDS
Again the ability to TP to good spots, have a tank and nuker is a great combo!

BARDS
Bard songs dont' affect pets, major bummer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Also bards are HUGE taunts, so if partenring with a bard be very careful of taunting, only earth pets and probably air can stop mobs going after an incautious bard! Still, a bard's speed (for pulling), melee, and song skills make him a good partner for duoing with a mage.

This guide (2/9/01) shows how Mage pets work when duo'ing with other classes. For nearly every class combo the Mage pet is tanking and taunting well, enough that Wizards and Enchanters can nuke.

All of this is impossible on P99 as pet taunt isn't worth a damn.

[phacemeltar]

if pet taunt worked, this server would change substantially. no more need for tanks, i shudder at the thought *shudder*

iirc pet taunt being viable is the reason why shamans/sks get low level pets.. they are kinda useless as the game is now

[YendorLootmonkey]

Wasn't this changed when Sky bosses were killed by 30+ pets?

http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...ets#post217428

[baalzy]

Lets keep the ball rolling with some Enchanter stories of yore.

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20020704054635/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=4053

MAKE SURE YOU PULL you can use lull to ensure you pull only one skele at a time, lull tow of them, pull one, and then cast tashan on the one you want to pull in, now back up and let your tank, or allys pet melee while you cast enfeeblement, not cast suffocating sphere and go and melee as well, once you get the message 'your suffocating sphere spell has worn off' or when u get low on hp, back off again and cast suffocating sphere again or sit rest for a tick or two, by then the spell will need recasting and u can melee again

Suffocation sphere & enfeeblement? Being tanked by someones pet? Those are some nasty spells that pull gigantic aggro here.
December 2000

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20011225013510/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=468

Cast Tashan on the wisp, back off when the pet starts attacking the wisp, and throw your 4th level DoT on the wisp. Then watch the health of your pet and the wisp. If the pet reaches 50% health, start blasting the wisp to draw it onto you. If you have a magic weapon (get a magician to summon a dagger for you, if needed), melee the wisp, too. If not, be ready to use up all your mana blasting the wisp.

Another post supporting pets hold great hate even against nasty DoTs. Side note: This is a fantastic guide in general for Enchanters & could provide a lot of insight into classic mechanics for enchanters (I didn't read the whole thing).

March 2000

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20010506015607/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=3859

I've taken down 1 red, and had to gate from another one...if fear gets resisted or has a short duration twice, let it munch on your pet while you gate, you're not going to win that fight.

In this one the enchanter is suggesting you let your pet die while you gate if a red griffiene resists fear or your fear breaks early 2 times. At level 24 in p99 this would never work. 1 resisted fear and the griffiene is munching on you and your pet will never pull it off. This is also an animation, the weakest of the int pets

December 2000

Originally Posted by http://web.archive.org/web/20010506014149/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=4574

1. Have pet up
2. Cast Choke to initiate the battle
3. let mob attack you once to engage your pet, then take about 5 steps back
4. cast tashan
5. cast chase the moon to send mob off running with your pet chasing it.

Do steps 2-5 as quickly as possible to reduce the amount of time your weak-kneed pet has to staand toe to toe with that mob.

6. Let Fly with the big dog nuke to take a big chunk of its life away

From here you can decide whether you need to nuke again or melee it a couple times, depending on the hp the mob has and the condition of your pet. if your pet is hurting pretty badly, you'll want to nuke and get the fight over as soon as possible. I have found that by casting the spells in this order, the choke seems to do decent damage, and as long as you take a couple steps back, the mob will attack your pet instead of you after your pet is engaged. Then you can cast tashan and the mob will stay on your pet! Casting chase the moon makes it run away for quite some time usually, so hate shouldn't matter at this point. If you practice using this strategy enough you should be able to solo mobs from blue to the occasional red in Oasis without problems.

Choke, Tash, pet holding hate.
Feb 2001

Okay at this point I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. If a developer wants to make a request for more information then I'll go dig up some more.

[baalzy]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wasn't this changed when Sky bosses were killed by 30+ pets?

http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...ets#post217428

http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...ight=rule+of+4

Nilbogs rule of 4 (Even if it's not classic, but it also could be classic) would solve this issue and while not gimping pets in low-man situations.

[Iumuno]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wasn't this changed when Sky bosses were killed by 30+ pets?

http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...ets#post217428

Until a patch mid velious, raid mobs and even some dungeon named, would entirely ignore pets. It was impossible to tank raid mobs with pets.

[Asap]

Again, thanks for the research Baalzy. I hope something good comes of this thread

[Yinaltin]

bumping for dev attention