Ignoring the Average Joe: Why most raid plans do nothing for those who need it most

[radditsu]

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic

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[JayN]

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic

[radditsu]

Originally Posted by radditsu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm seeing more threads hitting around this issue, and that's a good thing. http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=133770

The basic problem is that you have two drastically different playstyles, and the only way to make them both viable is to completely segregate the populations under two different plans.

That's not the basic problem. It's true, but it's not the basic problem. The basic problem is that this server has installed non-classic end-game mechanics that necessarily segregate the server population. That's not a natural or classic segregation, and it's not one that should be institutionalized.

Creating such enormous incentives for guilds to track for an obscene amount of hours and be able to log in capable raid forces at a moment's notice at any time of day is NOT classic EQ, and that is why there is such unrest. As it stands on this server, the risk/reward of tracking a raid mob decidedly favors massive zerg guilds. Any guild outside of TMO/IB/FE that even bothers to track mobs in the prime-time hours is taking a terrible gamble, statistically speaking. You're wagering 5-6 hours and your entire raid force of mains (which you must camp out at the scene to have any chance) for a -- what -- 5% chance at the mob? If that? The odds of your even having sufficient numbers to take the mob down is limited to about 6 hours out of the day, which gives you a 25% chance. And when a desirable named pops during prime time, you're probably one of ~5-ish guilds that's going to contest. So let's say 5%.

That's horrendous and has basically precluded the vast majority of the server from the raid scene. Again, that's NOT classic. You've bastardized the notion of "competition" to create a debate over whether or not we should continue to incentivize the so-called hardcore group that wants to continue devoting life-ruining hours to winning CSR-Quest, which is decidedly different from classic EverQuest.

What you should want is a mechanics system that is classic and makes it a) easier for other guilds to compete and b) essentially impossible for one guild to monopolize content. Tiny variances, server repops every 2 weeks or so, and extremely harsh rules against poop-socking/camping out raid forces. That's classic-esque.

[Fael]

Love that response radd [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Draagun]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The goal should be to enable both groups in a fair manner that does not unduly impact the other.

Many of us hardcore raiders came from EQ Live and P99 is a refuge against gaming companies that make games for casuals perhaps you'd be happier going to play WOW or some other clone of that kind.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Draagun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Many of us hardcore raiders came from EQ Live and P99 is a refuge against gaming companies that make games for casuals perhaps you'd be happier going to play WOW or some other clone of that kind.

And many of us casual raiders have come to P99 as a refuge against the terrible communities that exist in games without even the slightest bit of player interdependence which brings about a drastic decline in the quality of community. We come here for a refuge from bad community, looking for actual cooperation and an enjoyable experience.

That's why Rogean's plan is likely the best. It lets each of us raid in exactly the way we want, independent of one another. You get the environment you want, I get the environment I want. VP is the sacrifice all casual/relaxed guilds give to have this, as we are surrendering our right to ever bring casual raiding to that progression. Instead, we want to be able to live out our dreams of earning our epics, getting some kills, while doing it in a positive, constructive way with a strong community.

You're not wrong, but neither are casuals like myself. Both groups exist in EQ, both groups exist as people. We all want refuge from what WoW has become, as not only is the game fucking easy to hell (the problem hardcores would have), but it also has the single most toxic gaming community until League of Legends.

I work hard when I play a game, I do everything I can to master it, but a hardcore raiding environment is not something I enjoy, in this game or in others. It makes me feel like a horrible person to be in and a part of such environments. It's alright that you don't, we're different people. What I seek is a community of like minded individuals devoted to the goal of having a great time in the best MMO created to date, at the best time it existed, rather than shutting down others. I want to earn my epic by prying the pieces I need off the corpse of Cazic-Thule and Innoruuk, and know that I earned them, not that I paid a higher tier guild that had it exclusively on lockdown, or by joining a raiding style that makes me feel like less of a person (again, no problem if you don't feel that way, we're different people). That's why those mobs are so important in the negotiations. There are few things more fundamental to the nostalgia of EverQuest Classic than being able to earn one's epic, while both highly competitive raids, and rotations/cooperative raids are seen throughout. Anyone who wants to work hard at it should have the opportunity to achieve their dreams of a time long past, and shouldn't have to sell out their principles on behalf of a game to earn some pixels when we all should be here to have fun.

Cooperation, and competition, are both core to EverQuest, and both are really good for the right people. So, how can we best create a system that allows for both systems to happen? Rogean's plan does that, by letting hardcores hardcore the way hardcore people want to hardcore, and casuals can casual in the way casuals want to casual. Instead of making hardcores become casual, or casuals become hardcore, let them each do their own thing. That's what the staff plan allows for. If the goal is competition, awesome, this allows for it. If the goal is to enjoy other people's failures, if the goal is schadenfreude, then this is not a good plan.

We have a common ground in that we don't want to go to what happened in WoW and most other MMOs, but we are each reaching for a different EQ experience. That's why I really believe the Staff proposal is the best one out there. It lets each of our groups be ourselves, amongst ourselves. Our desires are not incompatible, but they need to be given their own space to bloom in their own way, you know? We are all here to have fun, one of our groups having fun at the cost of the other isn't fair by any legitimate standard.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by Draagun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Many of us hardcore raiders came from EQ Live and P99 is a refuge against gaming companies that make games for casuals perhaps you'd be happier going to play WOW or some other clone of that kind.

Will all respect, I don't think you understand the thrust of my post.

To give you perspective, I am one of the more senior members of TMO, and I am extremely active in the hardcore environment. I am not looking for "easy mode." I am simply attempting to illustrate shortcomings in the current raid proposals. Casuals have a legitimate expectation to meaningfully, if not frequently, participate in the endgame to a reasonable extent.

The point is that both sides have valid complaints, but those complaints cannot, in my view, be satisfactorily addressed in the manner that people are now attempting. A radically different scheme is needed. To amelioriate that, I am proposing a complete segregation of the populations that maintains a classic element (repops) along side a classic theme (hardcore domination with regards to total mob kill amounts).

[Ciroco]

Originally Posted by Draagun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Many of us hardcore raiders came from EQ Live and P99 is a refuge against gaming companies that make games for casuals perhaps you'd be happier going to play WOW or some other clone of that kind.

I'm a hardcore raider from EQ Live that wants nothing to do with what "hardcore" has become here, and I'm not the only one.

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by Ciroco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm a hardcore raider from EQ Live that wants nothing to do with what "hardcore" has become here, and I'm not the only one.

prove it