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  #1  
Old 09-17-2011, 02:04 AM
h0tr0d (shaere) h0tr0d (shaere) is offline
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Default Mobs too buff.

Correct me if I am wrong but in classic mobs tripled not quadded more. I have run into this before with sky mobs doing more dps then they did in classic quadding every time with extra attacks or procs, they just are more difficult. Innoruuk tripled 400 with a bash. I remember mobs did not quad until what Vindi, Idol and AoW? I remember the insane hp velious mobs had, and the quadding thing, the ch chain coming into existence. If for some unknown p99 reason mobs are quadding to make it harder then they shouldn't be doing it every single round. They should be making their checks for double attack also or dual wield or whatever just like players, not quadding automatically every round.

But the bottom line is these mobs should be not be doing this amount of dps. One could say the Avatar of War was the father of the ch chain. Necessity dictated that the ch chain come into existence because you couldn't kill him without. No one went into sky in kunark with a 7 cleric ch chain. To use the final bixie Bazzt Zzzt as an example. If she quads 860 with a kick, poison dot proc and draco dot aoe you are needing 6 minimum clerics for a ch chain if you tried a straight tank n spank. I'm not even factoring in ac not helping mitigate correctly or perhaps I should say as it did on live. I remember the AoW chain being what 7ish clerics? Maybe more? Granted Velious added armor and options for guilds, made em stronger but as it stands now on this server you need a 7 cleric ch chain, more to be safe on a 60 warrior with defensive to keep up heals on Bazzt zzzt. That is essentially having heals to cover the same dps as you did for the AoW since we were all still 60. And guilds on live weren't using a ch chain like that back then because the ch chain came into existence to deal with the insane dps and omg hp mobs had in velious.

I don't want the player remarks on "other guilds killed the bixie" or give me stories about riposte disc chain (that we used for VS on live) or mage pet armies or 80 man raids for the bixie. The fact remains these mobs dps should not be as much as they are, its near AoW level. Ac mitigated more on live, abilities such as dodge block worked better (I can show u ss of me fighting KoS through enrage and the abilities firing) plus the mobs here get extra attacks and hit for more. Bazzt zzt should not be a 7 cleric ch chain when you fight her like AoW. No way in hell.
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Originally Posted by Rogean
All raid mobs provide an "FTE Shout" that show what guild has engaged. Kill stealing will be severely disciplined. But not really.
Last edited by h0tr0d (shaere); 09-17-2011 at 04:28 PM..
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  #2  
Old 09-17-2011, 04:10 AM
Treats Treats is offline
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Comparing Bazzt Zzzt's DPS with the Avatar of War is just silly. Those two are not even close. The tactic of using a CH chain to make up for round damage was used long before AoW.

Assuming both Quad:

Avatar of War - 1154 + Flurry = 9232 + kick/bash possible per round
Bazzt Zzzt - 860 = 3440 + kick/bash possible per round

You should be able to keep a 60 Warrior with Defensive up on Bazzt Zzzt no problem even if he quads with four or five clerics. It Bazzt max hit EVERY time it would still take her 3+ rounds to kill the tank. Difficulty seems pretty close to classic from what I can remember, Plane of Sky was pretty fucking brutal. Heal better I guess? I don't know.
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Old 09-17-2011, 09:57 AM
greatdane greatdane is offline
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That's not really the point of his post. I do seem to remember that quadding came in with Velious, and Vindi was most people's first experience with it.

Lots of mobs quad here, including in the lower level. It seems that any mob coded as the monk class can quad, like war boned skeletons, skeletal monk and such. It makes them absurdly powerful for their level. I don't remember that being the case, and while I don't specifically remember that it wasn't, I'm skeptical that a level 20 skeleton should be able to one-round for 4x 50 and a 35 damage Tiger Strike or whatever.
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Old 09-17-2011, 12:29 PM
Pescador Pescador is offline
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I would have to agree that mobs such as skeletal monks are ridiculously strong for their level. I don't remember it being that way in classic, but I don't have any hard evidence to support that fact.
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Old 09-17-2011, 04:22 PM
h0tr0d (shaere) h0tr0d (shaere) is offline
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Treats that is exactly my point. You cannot keep up a 60 warrior with defensive with 4 or 5 clerics. She can effectively two round that 60 warrior. It isn't exact but it doesn't take 2 rounds and that that tank is toast. You hit the nail on the head when you said this

Quote:
Comparing Bazzt Zzzt's DPS with the Avatar of War is just silly. Those two are not even close.
But yet there it is. Essentially we have 5k hp tanks in game high end, max hp gear. Ac is crap so warriors don't mitigate the same here but the fact remains if I recall you could use a 7 cleric ch chain for AoW on live. On here I am telling you you need a 7 cleric ch chain to be safe with the bixie boss or OOA. Because even a 6 cleric chain is risky, you have to HOPE she doesn't hit near max and most times she does. Defensive only mitigates it to 531 or so max hit, but she quads every time with a kick, poison proc dot for 100 and every now and then may get a flesh rot in.

I understand tanks were a little beefier in Velious. But they didn't go from 5k hp to 10k. There is no way you should need a 7 cleric chain to keep up a 60 war with defensive on Bazzt Zzzt. She was not the AoW of kunark era. I appreciate Pescador's ignorant attempt at sarcasm but all you hear from those people is no ss no proof. Unfortunately I didn't play classic anticipating project1999 and a 3rd grader response when those of us who actually played back then and fought these mobs say "It wasn't like that". I am not sure what the deal is but it is not classic or near. If they were buffed specifically to prevent someone from killing them because it was felt they were 'too easy' that is ridiculous. We didn't need 60 man raids in sky with a 7 cleric chain for a tank on Bazzt Zzzt. My comparison to AoW was not that the dps was the same because it wasn't. My point was that if you used a 7 cleric chain for AoW on live and have to use a 7 cleric chain here then that is too much dps for Bazzt ZZt for example. Effectively if you use a 7 cleric chain for 2 mobs then the dps from them must be around the same, no? I have had this issue before and posted about it with different mobs. The Spiroc Lord having stonespider stun here, yet the Spiroc Guardian does not death touch.
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Originally Posted by Rogean
All raid mobs provide an "FTE Shout" that show what guild has engaged. Kill stealing will be severely disciplined. But not really.
Last edited by h0tr0d (shaere); 11-18-2011 at 11:16 PM..
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  #6  
Old 09-17-2011, 06:17 PM
Treats Treats is offline
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Here is a thread from 2001 Velious era:

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5488

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Eh, so we move on to the sixth isle, aka Wasp Isle, or Bee Isle, or Bzzzt Isle. Basically, there's just three aggro mobs on the whole isle. Kinda. They split, like on the fourth isle. Except these are the splits from hell. They're all just the same graphic as the n00b wasps in GFay. Except they're far meaner. Some are level 55 and triple for 500, some are level 60 and quad for 700, some of them when they die split into three bees that double or quad for 1800, depending on what level they are when they spawn, but only have about 2k hp, and then they split when they die. Add the confusion of them all being just standard bees (minus two giant bixies for the boss mob and the mob right before it), and the fact that they all have very similar names (Bzzzzt, Bazzzat, Bizzzat, Bzzzt Zzzt, etc.)... well, it's madness. And you have to kill them in a very specific order or you're screwed. Because the boss mob is level 65, Death Touches, quads for 850, has a disease AE DoT that covers the entire isle... and if she spawns in the wrong place, she'll be camping the only safe spot on the isle, making CR impossible, and she'll despawn in 60 minutes, ending the raid because there will be no possible way to move on. Well, she's a mean bugger, like I said. Dunno how people managed pre-Kunark, as she's meaner than Trakanon IMHO (Death Touches, quads for 850 as opposed to doubling for 625, AE DoT eats away HP a tad slower but is harder to resist, etc.). Must have been the Zerg Rush of all Zerg Rushes to keel her off back then.

She quads, trust me. It's just that most casters don't have enough hp to make it to the fourth hit. I was walking funny for the rest of the day after this.
Quote:
So time to pull the Hand. Hand, as you can tell, is kinda aggro. The Eye is not, but it will assist. And the last isle is quite small. Eye is basically a Venril Sathir clone that can Death Touch and has more HP. Hand is... evil. Quads for like 850, Death Touches, Grav Fluxes, and procs a lifetap. VS is easy to take care of because he can only lifetap on a person if they don't have a rune, and since VS only doubles for 350, it's easy to keep one up on the main tank. But a mob that quads for 850 and DT's? Um, ick. So we try to pull just the Hand to the seventh isle, as people always do. We try to use a revive trick to get him over. No dice. Jumping? Nope. Aggroing near the corner of the isle? Didn't quite work. So we had this rather impressive Eye of Zomm fleet go after him. Loth missed it, as he was the first to die. But I was bound to the Hand's sight at the time... and seeing about eight eyes coming right towards you is rather humorous. Everyone would buff and heal those he aggroed on, to maintain aggro... but, well, we learned something today. Apparently Verant didn't like the idea of splitting those two by pulling the Hand to the seventh isle. Hand doesn't leave his isle at all anymore. He would try to leave the isle, but run up against an invisible wall at the edge, sliding back and forth trying to get to us, but being unable to. Needless to say, this complicates things somewhat. We only had 15 or so keys to key over to the last isle... but the Hand is KoS (the Eye isn't but will assist), so there's no way we can summon people over. So those 15 would have to kill the Hand alone, and possibly the Eye if he adds, which would be likely. Um... hell, the Hand isn't even worth killing in the first place. His drops are only needed for the final quests, all of which need a rare-ass drop off the Eye for a reward that's very very outdated and probably won't be used. Hand drops the same loot as the Noble and Overseer, so he literally isn't worth killing. Of course, I wanted to kill him, just because. But having both up on the last isle is... um... bad. I've already thought of two ways around this little problem (both will allow us to kill both Hand and Eye), but both methods require some serious forward planning, so they couldn't be done at the time. Oh well.
I suppose its possible they could have introduced quad's with Velious. If you think about it though they would have had to go back and retune EVERY mob level 60 and higher adding that damage and testing difficulty. It was just so rare to see it back in the Classic/Kunark era. Only high end guilds were doing Trak/Talendor/PoSky/Gore/VP back then, a very small amount of the total population.

Suppose you could take a time machine into the Kael arena to fight The Avatar of War with the same raid force/gear. They would get absolutely flattened. He would decimate the entire raid force in a matter of seconds with a 7 cleric CH chain. The Avatar of War was not even killed on live with an actual PC tanking until a few days before Luclin was released if I remember right. This was only even possible after MONTHS of farming in Temple of Veeshan. He was killed prior to this, but that was using "The Frozen Moses."
Last edited by Treats; 09-17-2011 at 07:03 PM..
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Old 09-17-2011, 09:20 PM
greatdane greatdane is offline
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Quote:
Suppose you could take a time machine into the Kael arena to fight The Avatar of War with the same raid force/gear. They would get absolutely flattened. He would decimate the entire raid force in a matter of seconds with a 7 cleric CH chain. The Avatar of War was not even killed on live with an actual PC tanking until a few days before Luclin was released if I remember right. This was only even possible after MONTHS of farming in Temple of Veeshan. He was killed prior to this, but that was using "The Frozen Moses."
I do remember Frozen Moses, and AoW wasn't legitimately killed until the end of Velious. The 2001 quotes seem to settle it. I'm still skeptical about the low-level quadders, but that's not really for this thread.
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  #8  
Old 09-17-2011, 09:41 PM
h0tr0d (shaere) h0tr0d (shaere) is offline
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Yeah read the part where they say the hand doesn't leave the isle any more. And how outdated the Eye rewards are. And the fact the Hand is quadding 850 and all that. HERE the OOA is that tough. Remember the live timeline. Mar? 99 eq goes live. Kunark is about a year at apr 2000. Velious was Dec 2000. Luclin dec 2001. I fought and killed Bazzt Zzzt in kunark, pre server splits on Tunare. We had the normal Tunare PUG crew raiding sky on weekends all through Kunark. We didn't port pull we didn't mez mobs we didn't ch chain or riposte disc chain people. It wasn't needed. Heck we didn't go up with 60. I remember we would port up aggro all up the Spirocs at once. Chaos ensue but we would handle it. Most of the healing was done just assist heal or spam heal we never used a ch chain. It wasn't something used in game yet it hadn't been 'discovered'. There is a picture floating out there of FoH fighting her pre kunark.

The fact that post is Aug 2001 puts it what, 8 months after Velious release? On this server the OOA is what the Hand was on live I think. The OOA max should be what, 750 according to some sites yet some say 500 which makes sense because Dojorn is 300, ooa being 500 and hand being 750 makes sense. Notice how they also said nothing about the spiroc lord stone spider stunning. The mobs here look to have been made harder well I'll you speculate why. You didn't need a 7 cleric chain in game until you got into kael for those final fights. There is absolutely no way you can believe that.

They also say she depops in 60 min and is lvl 65. She was 63, 80 min depop. The spirocs they say hit for 300? When their max should be 200 with vanquishers and the guardian being 250. The lord was 350. Here you need to defensive to get the Lord at 350. Anyway there is alot of information out there that conradicts each other and I didn't have fraps and parses running to have the information for this day. We can debate and argue all we want about details but I think the fact you need a 7 cleric chain to heal for Bazzt Zzzt shows you she is too OP. Find me any guild that used a 7 cleric chain on her in kunark. But that post doesn't settle anything I can link you posts with all the information that I listed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogean
All raid mobs provide an "FTE Shout" that show what guild has engaged. Kill stealing will be severely disciplined. But not really.
Last edited by h0tr0d (shaere); 09-17-2011 at 09:43 PM..
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  #9  
Old 09-17-2011, 10:05 PM
h0tr0d (shaere) h0tr0d (shaere) is offline
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Heck the wingblade drop wasn't increased until 04/19/2006.

Quote:
Increased the drop rate of the Spiroc Wingblade in Plane of Sky.
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20060419.html
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Originally Posted by Rogean
All raid mobs provide an "FTE Shout" that show what guild has engaged. Kill stealing will be severely disciplined. But not really.
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  #10  
Old 09-17-2011, 10:08 PM
h0tr0d (shaere) h0tr0d (shaere) is offline
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Well many months may be an exaggeration by the poster. But with Velious being dec 2000 and Luclin 2001 that is only 12 months. No guild killed AoW 'many months' before Luclin maybe a few but not 'many'.
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All raid mobs provide an "FTE Shout" that show what guild has engaged. Kill stealing will be severely disciplined. But not really.
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